How bad is a probation for a med student?

[westwind]

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It is quite possible I will get a probation from the school. My step 1 is 242. AND I am in a top 20 school.

Can anyone tell how serious this will affect my future career?

Will it be in my record all the time, from residency match to fellowship application?

How it will affect my residency placement? I think it will show up in my application.

I am almost losing my hope for the rest of my life.

If possible, please tell me what I could do to make thing a little better.

Many thanks.

 

[pgg]

It is quite possible I will get a probation from the school due to a conduct violation.

So, was it a criminal act, were drugs involved, was it an academic dishonesty thing, did you get caught smuggling furs or downloading the new Transformers movie off the internet?

If you want to be vague to make it harder for people to identify you, fine, but don't be so vague that no useful responses are possible. More info is needed.

 

[westwind]

So, was it a criminal act, were drugs involved, was it an academic dishonesty thing, did you get caught smuggling furs or downloading the new Transformers movie off the internet?

If you want to be vague to make it harder for people to identify you, fine, but don't be so vague that no useful responses are possible. More info is needed.

It is kind of behavor problem with another person.

 

[rock_climber]

you need to be more specific if you want an semblance of an answer - "with another person" could range from killing someone to sleeping with a patient to robbing a bank to ...

 

[pgg]

It is kind of behavor problem with another person.

Well, I have to say that punching your pregnant girlfriend, who happened to be a a patient you took care of during a psychiatry rotation, is exactly the sort of thing that will make it very difficult to match into dermatology. Maybe you can backdoor your way into something skin-related via pathology and a fellowship at a later date.

 

[Resolve]

this is a big country, so i am sure that you will find a place which will accept you. after all, even criminals can get jobs after they are released from the prisons.

maybe you can get to the position that you want, but you will work it out. it can't be that hard.

of course, people expect that medical students should know how to act properly. but look at Bush, if he can get elected twice, so can you!

 

[westwind]

It is claimed due to misunderstanding because of culture difference. No apparent evidence was recorded, but my school has no tololance on this kind of issue.

you need to be more specific if you want an semblance of an answer - "with another person" could range from killing someone to sleeping with a patient to robbing a bank to ...

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

haha. I learned my lesson in sexual harassment back in high school.

 

[westwind]

Well, I have to say that punching your pregnant girlfriend, who happened to be a a patient you took care of during a psychiatry rotation, is exactly the sort of thing that will make it very difficult to match into dermatology. Maybe you can backdoor your way into something skin-related via pathology and a fellowship at a later date.

Do you mean I could still match into pathology even though I have this probation?
I think the probation will show up on my application. Will any program give a chance to a peolpe with a probation?

In addition, suppose I got match into a very low tier program. And I want to apply for fellowship. Will this probation show up in my fellowship application?

 

[Resolve]

no one can give you an exact answer, because no one can predict the future.

stop acting crazy from now on, be a good medical student as you should be, tell them that you have learned your lesson, etc.

you can't change the future, you can only change yourself. make yourself a better person from now on.

 

[westwind]

no one can give you an exact answer, because no one can predict the future.

stop acting crazy from now on, be a good medical student as you should be, tell them that you have learned your lesson, etc.

you can't change the future, you can only change yourself. make yourself a better person from now on.

I have learned this lesson more than enough.

As for me, life is just like a streched string. You can not loose it even for a second.

I just hope I could get some suggestions how to make things (e.g. residency application) better under my situation. I do not want to end with nothing by being a good student.

 

[cleothecat]

If indeed there is no evidence, and if the "misunderstanding" arises due to cultural issues, then consider the following:

Without making an admission of guilt, speak to the Deans office.
Ask to make sure that your file will not show probation ( especially if there was no "hearing").
A quid pro quo may include to consider taking counselling on inter-cultural communication (or write a paper on the subject).

 

[lord_jeebus]

Hire a lawyer now, before your options for due process or negotiation are limited.

I have no idea what happened or what a "probation" is at your school so I am assuming the worst when I give this advice.

 

[westwind]

Is it useful to hire a lawyer for the hearing by the school?

Hire a lawyer now, before your options for due process or negotiation are limited.

I have no idea what happened or what a "probation" is at your school so I am assuming the worst when I give this advice.

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

In my opinion, this is AMERICA. If you come to america, its your duty to:

1. Learn the language
2. Understand AMERICAN culture

If it was truly due to a cultural reason, its the other persons fault. I hate people who complain that America isn't tailoring to their culture, language, not enough signs, blah blah. If they don't like it, don't come, yet they still do because its the land of the golden opportunities. I had to learn English and the culture just like everyone else.

 

[silas2642]

Is it useful to hire a lawyer for the hearing by the school?

You have to go for a hearing? Is there any chance that you might get kicked out?

 

[lord_jeebus]

Yes, you want a lawyer before you have exhausted any of your opportunities to keep your record clean. A lawyer will help you make the best of these options, but cannot magically help you re-do them if they don't work out the way you want.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

this wud be what we call a red flag, on par with failing the boards, a rotation or two or having a really crummy dean's letter.

 

[Blesbok]

Argue your case at the hearing. Be apologetic, but don't admit that you did anything wrong. Just tell them that you never meant for it to come to this and apologize that there was a misunderstanding.

If it does stick, then it will most likely go in your MSPE for residency. Whether it is horrible or not depends on how the school documents it.

 

[westwind]

That is what I really worry about.

Is it possible to get a probation but not showing up in my application and the dean's letter?

this wud be what we call a red flag, on par with failing the boards, a rotation or two or having a really crummy dean's letter.

 

[SpookyDoc]

That is what I really worry about.

Is it possible to get a probation but not showing up in my application and the dean's letter?

A better question is: WHY are you asking us and not your administration? Aren't they your friends? They WANT you to succeed (unless you did something REALLY bad), so go and talk to them and figure out what you can do to mitigate the circumstances, see if it goes on your permanent record, offer to take a course or write a paper etc.

Get off the internet and do something in real life. This is an event that can change the course of the rest of your life and you think its a better idea to mull over it on the internet than to be proactive?

 

[Taurus]

Do well rest of medical school and you should be fine. The ultra-competitve fields like derm, plastics, ENT are probably unrealistic. Rads, gas, ophtho, uro, neurosurg are reaches but obtainable. Get involved in research. You need to have accomplishments listed on your CV.

 

[Taurus]

Yes, you want a lawyer before you have exhausted any of your opportunities to keep your record clean. A lawyer will help you make the best of these options, but cannot magically help you re-do them if they don't work out the way you want.

Unless they kick you out, I would not get lawyer. You can, but don't let the school know about it. This is the nuclear option. Once you cross this bridge, there's no turning back. Remember you need the school's help to get residency and the medical community is a small one.

 

[westwind]

Thanks for your input. My friends and classmates know nothing about it.
And I do not want to bother the dean so often to get the answer for a single question.
I am just trying any possibility to save the rest of my life.

A better question is: WHY are you asking us and not your administration? Aren't they your friends? They WANT you to succeed (unless you did something REALLY bad), so go and talk to them and figure out what you can do to mitigate the circumstances, see if it goes on your permanent record, offer to take a course or write a paper etc.

Get off the internet and do something in real life. This is an event that can change the course of the rest of your life and you think its a better idea to mull over it on the internet than to be proactive?

 

[westwind]

Do well rest of medical school and you should be fine. The ultra-competitve fields like derm, plastics, ENT are probably unrealistic. Rads, gas, ophtho, uro, neurosurg are reaches but obtainable. Get involved in research. You need to have accomplishments listed on your CV.

Thanks. I really hope this is true for a student with a probation. I do not want competitive specialties. I am just thinking the possibility in primary care, e.g. IM.

 

[westwind]

Unless they kick you out, I would not get lawyer. You can, but don't let the school know about it. This is the nuclear option. Once you cross this bridge, there's no turning back. Remember you need the school's help to get residency and the medical community is a small one.

Thanks for the reminder. Might I get some idea from a lawyer on how to defense or how to present the case on the hearing?

 

[Perrotfish]

Thanks for the reminder. Might I get some idea from a lawyer on how to defense or how to present the case on the hearing?

What a lawyer will be helpful with is determing:

1) What your legal options are if things go badly at the hearing

and

2) How you can best preserve those legal options during the hearing.

#2 is the key thing. Hopefully you will just survive the hearing without a mark on your record, but if the school does decide to do something to hurt your residency apps you want to make sure that haven't said/done/agreed to/signed something that makes it impossible for you to file a lawsuit.

Of course, your lawyer is a professional arguer, so (s)he'll probably be able to help you prepare for the hearing as well, but that's not really what you're going for.

I would second that your school does not need to know you've contacted a lawyer. Actually NO ONE needs to know you've contacted a lawyer. Not your friends at school, not your girlfriend, not you parents who live half way accross the country. The best way to keep a secret from your school is not to tell anyone else.

 

[AlexMorph]

fight it, man. but don't get combative. reason with them. if they are unreceptive, then go the lawyer route. but please, don't antagonize them. you have everything to lose, and it just doesn't affect them.

 

[CambieMD]

If indeed there is no evidence, and if the "misunderstanding" arises due to cultural issues, then consider the following:

Without making an admission of guilt, speak to the Deans office.
Ask to make sure that your file will not show probation ( especially if there was no "hearing").
A quid pro quo may include to consider taking counselling on inter-cultural communication (or write a paper on the subject).

Probation is probation. Any program coming in contact with the op should know about this. If he is not up front with programs and this information is discovered by the program he could be terminated. Tell the truth, be up front and you will be fine.

Cambie

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Probation is probation. Any program coming in contact with the op should know about this. If he is not up front with programs and this information is discovered by the program he could be terminated. Tell the truth, be up front and you will be fine.

Cambie

I think the point most people are making is that if the school has no evidence, he should fight the probation in the first place.

 

[dragonfly99]

With being a US grad from a top 20 school and having a 240 Step 1, you will get a residency unless you totally screw up 3rd and 4th years. If you have probation on your transcript it will hurt your residency application, yes, but how much is an open question. Certainly I think it will keep you out of things like derm and plastic surgery. With a good grade in your IM subI there are a ton of IM programs I am sure that would still take you, as long as you didn't do something like assault someone or take drugs.

I don't disagree w/ consulting a lawyer, but DON'T tell the school. The attorney can advise you on what to say, and how to say it, during your hearing. #1 thing is you don't want to get kicked out of school. #2 thing is it would be nice if you can get them to either agree to take away the probation or at least leave you a way to get OFF probation later assuming you have no further trouble.

It looks like you have some problems with English still, and working on that might help with general communication. People can be brutal in med school as well as in residency, so you could get into further conflicts with people if you don't figure out some of what caused your previous problem(s). This happens even with US-born students so it's definitely not unique to just you. You need to figure out what caused this, and it was probably both the other person AND you...that's the way most conflicts are.

 

[Taurus]

Most important thing is to keep your "nose clean" from now on. Everytime you apply for residency or state license, you will be asked about every disciplinary action taken against you. You are now tagged for closer scrutiny for the rest of your career.

 

[taratara]

I have a similar problem.

I'll get a probation due to my misunderstanding to application policy.

I listed a few pre-med classes in my aplication which I took in another contry. But my school won't accept them. They may give me 1 year to complete these classes in USA, but will give me a probation for 1 year period.

I was told the probabtion may not show on transcripts if I could pass them in 1 year, but will show on dean's letter.

Could anybody tell me how bad the probation will affect my future career?

Many thanks!

 

[Winged Scapula]

I have a similar problem.

I'll get a probation due to my misunderstanding to application policy.

I listed a few pre-med classes in my aplication which I took in another contry. But my school won't accept them. They may give me 1 year to complete these classes in USA, but will give me a probation for 1 year period.

I was told the probabtion may not show on transcripts if I could pass them in 1 year, but will show on dean's letter.

Could anybody tell me how bad the probation will affect my future career?

Many thanks!

That's odd.

It would seemingly be the school's responsibility to verify that you took all the pre-med courses BEFORE accepting you into their program. Most US schools do not accept ANY pre-med course work taken outside of the US. If those were required pre-med courses then you would not have been eligible for admission.

Is there more to the story that you're not telling us?

 

[taratara]

no. that's all.

I got in. I'm in school now,,,but I'm thinking if I should quit the current program then re-apply 2010 class for other schools or just stay here with a red flag on head for my whole life.

Bty,,, I never got any bad records in any school... Actually I was an honor student when I was a phd student.

 

[njbmd]

It is quite possible I will get a probation from the school. My step 1 is 242. AND I am in a top 20 school.

Can anyone tell how serious this will affect my future career?

Will it be in my record all the time, from residency match to fellowship application?

How it will affect my residency placement? I think it will show up in my application.

I am almost losing my hope for the rest of my life.

If possible, please tell me what I could do to make thing a little better.

Many thanks.

For residency, your probationary status may be mentioned in your Deans Letter but often these things are not. With the new format of the Deans Letters, things like probation are not discussed. You may have to indicate this on ERAS (I haven't seen an ERAS form in awhile) so be prepared to explain this if asked in an interview if you have indicated this on your ERAS form. Don't mention this in your residency personal statement.


Get off probation as soon as you can and do an outstanding job in everything clinical from here on out. If you have a good relationship with the chair of the department of the specialty that you want to enter, then allow this person to address your probation if they believe it even needs addressing. Otherwise, keep yourself out of trouble, do a good job clinically and put this behind you. It's done and you don't have to keep suffering if you have corrected what you needed to correct.

Fellowship applications don't ask about medical school but about residency performance and in-service exam scores. If you match into a solid residency, do a good job both clinically and academically, you should not have to worry about your med school record.

 

[njbmd]

no. that's all.

I got in. I'm in school now,,,but I'm thinking if I should quit the current program then re-apply 2010 class for other schools or just stay here with a rad flag on head for my whole life.

Bty,,, I never got any bad records in any school... Actually I was an honor student when I was a phd student.

You are going to be asked if you have previously matriculated which you have. You also in leaving, would leave not in "good standing" which would make entry into another medical school virtually impossible unless you go offshore. Unless you are going to lie, which would amount to immediate dismissal, you have to report that you previously matriculated into medical school.

Do what you can to get off probation and do your best with everything else.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I agree with WS that the situation is strange.

If you reported that you took these classes internationally, and then after accepting you they decided that they didn't count --> I see that as their problem and not yours.

If you reported that you took these classes in the US but you really took them internationally --> then you were not truthful on your application and you are lucky not to be dismissed immediately

Likely the real story is in the middle somewhere. Agreed that the best course of action is to stay in this medical school. PD's will really not care about this in the future as long as everything else goes well. Besides, it will make a great story for your interview...

.. Several years ago we interviewed a candidate, and my PA noticed that he mentioned "none" for his undergrad degree despite attending a prestigious univeristy. When asked, it turned out that his school yanked his scholarship (per his report, for no good reason) in his last semester and basically told him to pay or forgo his degree. He had already gotten into medical school, so told them to stuff it.