Pass/Fail only in the first 2 years. Even if it's true P/F, then MS-3 grades play a role in class rank. No school (that I know of) is P/F across all 4 years.
Yup, you're definitely a Harvard medical student. Keep up the good work, brah.
. I'm really hoping I can get into school that has a curriculum structured like your school with pass/fail courses. I have a question though, how does AOA work in a pass or fail system? Are you automatically eligible by passing all your courses?
Even with the best scenario, it's "true" P/F in the first 2 years, and then it's some type of interval grading system in MS-3 -- i.e. H/HP/P/F. The top 25 percent of a medical school class is eligible for nomination, and up to 16 percent may be elected.Great to know thanks for your post
No medical school is "true" P/F in all 4 years. You are ranked in some way -- ordinal rank, which fraction of the class you fall in (i.e. quartiles), or code word used in the Dean's letter sent to residencies. Residencies want to know where you fall in the class, esp. if you're going for something competitive.
Yes, it tamps down competitive feelings at least when it comes to assigning grades within the first 2 years. It comes back, though, during MS-3 when it's no longer Pass/Fail.
Well from what I understand at my school, the third and fourth years are strictly spent at clinical rotations - so you aren't really doing anything collaborative with your classmates anyways. I haven't experienced anything yet, but this is just what I hear.
Not true. On your clinical rotations, actually you're functioning as a team, which requires collaboration - medical students/intern/residents to get clinical work done.
Not what I was told by classmates, but I guess I'll find out lol.
Curious, I know the person who made this must be joking, but is there any instances of the right image happening?
Definitely can see this being done in high school as a prank. This is kind of making me want to avoid brownies if I get into med school though haha
Yale System is as close to true P/F as it gets. No grades, no tests (optional evaluations are available for gunners), no AOA, no official or unofficial rank, no shelves, no written evaluations, etc.
My understanding is they are P/F in the first 2 years only as well. They are required to take certain qualifier exams: http://yalemedicine.yale.edu/autumn2002/features/feature/53052
That feature's really old. Required qualifier exams are no longer in place. Anonymous evaluations are optional. They do have H/P/F for clerkships, but 70% get Hs, so it is not a competitive system. No ranking whatsoever, not even in the Dean's Letter. (This is the most important thing imo.) Again, the closest there is in the system today.
http://medicine.yale.edu/education/omca/applicants/yalesystem.aspx
But everyone at every medical school interview says the student body is laid back.
Hence why as an applicant you don't just speak with the students that medical school administrators push to the front of you on interview days.
Yale can get away with that, bc it's Yale. The barrier to entry for that medical school is enormous. Any other medical school would see their match lists plummet accordingly. Residency program directors want to see how well a medical student did during their clinical clerkships bc it's a good window to look at (in theory) with regards to residency performance.
We would like to think so
I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm saying that 70% of ANY medical school class being at the Honors level when it comes to clinical evaluations is statistically impossible. It's pretty much grade inflation at its finest (when clerkships in general at any medical school tend to have grade inflation - i.e. people who are "passed" on a rotation when they actually should have failed -- this is demonstrated by the literature).
Aren't you still trying to get off the waitlist? http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/waitlist-support-group.1062685/page-22#post-15338049
How are you defining gunner? Studies a lot? Competitive? Actively sabotaging? The last one is rare bc if you're caught doing it, you can get in real trouble.
That's most top 10 schools, though.
Yes, but they're more of the HYPSM and other Ivy League school variety (vs. if you were to look at WashU's medical school, for example). Thus, many of them tend to be more of affluent backgrounds as well.
Depends on your definition. HYPMS has taken a big turn in the opposite direction in recent years, and increasingly more so. Sure, 40% of Yale still gets no financial aid and some grew up in the Hamptons (e.g., me, and so I know a ton of other spoiled brats like that), but it's not all pearly gates just because these people are from schools. Most premeds I know here are actually from seriously middle-class, middle level SES families (and I'm not doing the American thing of saying $150 family income is still middle-class). Overall, they're more affluent than other schools, but it's just not like how most perceive it to be.
Yes, bc of bad PR press in looking like an elitist organization who doesn't actually admit students based on merit. Or articles like this by Ms. Sarah Siskind at Harvard (a legacy, mind you): http://www.thecrimson.com/column/the-snollygoster/article/2012/11/2/Siskind-affirmative-action/
That is just not true. I'm telling you – I grew up in that environment, and I can tell you that though we are still in the majority (>50%), it is no longer the vast majority (>80%). Affluent kids from affluent neighborhoods do not all go to private schools. You won't believe me, but those generalizations are breaking apart as we speak. Ivies will always get a bad rep because of their elitist attitudes no so long ago (and justifiably so), but the tide is turning.
I've referring to matriculating students at medical schools like Harvard, Yale, etc. Also, if you think that somehow every hardworking Ivy League premed makes it into medical school, then your bubble is even more closed off than usual.
I know. And I'm telling you and I am very involved in that group of people, and I am telling you that not everyone came from a background like mine. You can either keep believing what you want to based on random news articles/classic impressions, or take some guidance from the anecdotal evidence I'm offering.
You're right, they attend very good local public schools in their district that are very well funded by local property taxes, after which they then head straight off to private schools.
lol this guy. Lost cause. Believe what you want to.
Sorry but when you say, "P.S. No offense, but the premeds at my school are all going to medical school. Rarely does anyone not get in anywhere, so I do think I can talk about them." -- you're very much misinformed if not very blind to the realities of med school admissions. There's a reason that premeds game the system and go to lower caliber universities to get higher GPAs for the purposes of one-upsmanship in medical school admissions.
Yes, you're right. A huge segment of the med school populace at a medical school like Yale or Harvard are going to your local state public flagship school.
I think that I personally would do better in a graded/ranked (not P/F) environment. As much as I try to be self-motivated, there is an overwhelming part of me which prefers to do the bare minimum possible for the highest reward possible. I'm doing better now in my postbacc than I used to, but it still stands that if I'm aiming for an 'A' and I fall short, I'll have a 'B'. If I'm aiming just for a 'P' and I fall short...bad news bears.Perhaps I am about to say something anti-SDNish, but oh well
What's wrong with a little (non-sabotage-y) competition?
All the schools I applied to were P/F. When I spoke with some of the students who I stayed with overnight, I was totally thrown off by a recurring theme: students in "true" P/F schools were sometimes purposefully underachieving. On 3 separate occasions (when I stayed overnight), I was asking about how the students approached P/F and 3 different groups of students, at 3 different schools, openly said that they didn't bother studying for the last few tests in a section because they had already done well enough to "pass" the block overall. These were first year students, who knows what kind of sample I got, etc, etc. The point is, while I don't want to spend my whole life obsessing over studying, I do want to have the motivation to try and give all parts of my education equal effort - I don't know that I am going to be in a position to judge what's important.
If, without any sort of inter-classmate competition, the goal shifts to doing well on the Step 1/2/3 exams...is that good enough?Is that enough motivation to produce future physicians who are trying to be the best they can be?
I like to think that I am a good enough student/person to study diligently, keep up research, and volunteer at the student run clinic, and play club squash in my free time for fun and exercise. That said, without seeing my classmates accomplish these things and more, I don't know if I'll get myself moving and accomplish all these things. There is value to seeing a peer role model and thinking, if they can do this then so can I.
What do you all think?
