How competitive is it to get in to Columbia Post Bacc?

[Zaly03]

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[deleted248403]

You have a great GPA and I would rather go to a truly top tier program as opposed to columbia/nyu/hunter

Are you heart-set on living in and around NYC? if so, then fair enough

If not - you could send in apps to BM/Goucher/JHU if you wanted a top tier program. Your cGPA would give you a shot, providing you have >1300 SATs (i think thats what drizzt quotes, correct if wrong)

 

[Zaly03]

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[deleted248403]

No, Columbia isn't top tier IMO. Have you read the Columbia thread? There are some pretty mixed reviews.
Its probably a 2nd tier program.

I don't know what if there are linkage options or what they claim their success rates are but noone has the complete package in terms of advising/quality/reputation/linkage/success that the top tier programs do

 

[path2993]

I have to come in and defend Columbia here...I am currently in the program and really enjoying my experience. I chose it because my research before I started led me to determine that it is a top program for what I wanted.


Since there are no formal rankings for Postbac programs, I am not sure how people are individually determining whether a program is top-tier, second-tier, etc. Just based on the opinions posted on forums? Personal concerns about advising or inaccurate rumors about attrition (this came up on another thread. See this link from the Columbia website: http://www.gs.columbia.edu/postbac/attrition) are not going to make or break a program to a medical school admissions committee. If you want actual rankings, you can always look at the undergrad rankings (which I think a lot of people go by anyway). Columbia is in the top ten there. Since we take the exact same classes as undergraduates with the same faculty and have access to the same resources, I would say this ranking could be extended to the Premed Postbac program. However, I would suggest looking for what matters to you on the individual program websites (number of students, advising, curriculum, linkage opportunities, medical school acceptances, medical school admissions rate, etc.) and visiting all the programs especially if you're already in NYC to make the best decision for you.


Also- at the Columbia Postbac information session, they told us that the average incoming GPA at Columbia is a 3.6. It didn't seem like they will even consider people with GPAs under 3.0 (no matter one's test scores) but I don't know.


Best of luck with your decision! Feel free to PM me if you want more information on my experience at Columbia.

 

[drizzt3117]

Undergrad rankings are useless. What you should look at are acceptance percentages of matriculants (100% for bm, scripps, goucher) and acceptance rate (~10% for those programs).

 

[NYCPreMedical]

Hi Zaly03. I am also a current Columbia postbac premed student. Regarding your initial question, you'll probably be admitted to the postbac program based on your stats. 3.0 is the minimum GPA, and yours is certainly a lot higher than that.

Regarding the ridiculous notion that Columbia is "second tier", you need to be careful about what you hear on this forum as there are many unsubstantiated and unfounded rumors and opinions (including on this thread). By any legitimate academic measure, Columbia is one of top ten universities in the country and medical schools recognize this fact. Medical schools recognize the rigour of Columbia science classes and the competitive curve in Columbia classes (only 35% As and A-s in intro lectures). Getting an A or A- from Columbia means a lot more than getting the same grade at a less reputed school (bm, goucher, scripps, etc.). Some of these schools may have 100% acceptance rates to med schools, but that's because they have a small postbac class, accepting only the top students. Any school can do that, and certainly if Columbia chose to do that, it would also have a 100% acceptance rate to med schools. The difference would be that a small postbac class at Columbia would probably all attend Ivy League med schools (Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Yale, etc.). By the way, Columbia, despite its very large class, still has 90% admission to med schools on the first applications. So the "100%" admission stat some cite on this forum for bm, goucher, scripps is an inconsequential statistic. It tells you almost nothing about how those less reputable schools will prepare a particular candidate for med school admissions versus Columbia. Any person who'll be admitted to med school by attending those other schools will also be admitted to med school if they attended Columbia. The difference is that a Columbia education (assuming comparable performance at the different schools) will likely get you into a higher ranked medical school.

I believe Columbia is the best postbac program for many aspiring doctors based on Columbia's reputation, rigorous program, proven history of helping students get into med schools, large and congenial postbac cohorts, many premed resources like volunteer opportunities and advising, and great facilities. Only Harvard and Penn have comparable reputation, but you don't take the same classes as undergrads in those programs. The key thing you should consider is whether you can do well at a competitive program like Columbia. If you can be in the top half of the class, you'll have a pick of med schools to attend, including the top med schools in the country. If you don't think you can do well academically, you should consider whether you can do significantly better at another program (Hunter, NYU, City College, etc.). A 3.3 GPA from Columbia will be a lot better than 3.3 from elsewhere and will probably get you into med school, but if you can get a 3.7 GPA elsewhere, that may improve your med school admissions chances.

Best of luck!

 

[drizzt3117]

Unfortunately, a lot of this just isn't true. Adcoms don't take the difficulty of education into account for the most part. It's considered to a certain degree, but the effect isn't really "worth the difference" so to speak. I served on an adcom at a top 25 school and interviewed prospective students so I have a pretty good idea of what schools are looking for. A 3.3 from Columbia is at best going to be neutral. If you have a 3.9 in a liberal arts major and finish the program with a 3.3, you'll probably get into med school but it's not helping you. I'd certainly ask about the discrepancy in a academic performance. "it's hard" is not an excuse. There are a number of schools that expect As in all the prereqs and have that as part of their admissions criteria.

I'm skeptical about the 90% figure but even if that were true, it's still a number that includes a lot of self selection. It doesn't include the students who didn't finish the program certainly, also only includes the students who thought their application was strong enough to apply, probably only includes students sponsored by the committee which isn't everyone, and is also two years out. The 100% acceptance rates the top programs have are based on matriculants. That means if you are accepted into the program you're accepted into med school, end of discussion. Columbia might be a top 10 undergrad but that's not because they take everyone with a 3.0 in high school into the program.

 

[premad]

Unfortunately, a lot of this just isn't true. Adcoms don't take the difficulty of education into account for the most part. It's considered to a certain degree, but the effect isn't really "worth the difference" so to speak. I served on an adcom at a top 25 school and interviewed prospective students so I have a pretty good idea of what schools are looking for. A 3.3 from Columbia is at best going to be neutral. If you have a 3.9 in a liberal arts major and finish the program with a 3.3, you'll probably get into med school but it's not helping you. I'd certainly ask about the discrepancy in a academic performance. "it's hard" is not an excuse. There are a number of schools that expect As in all the prereqs and have that as part of their admissions criteria.

I'm skeptical about the 90% figure but even if that were true, it's still a number that includes a lot of self selection. It doesn't include the students who didn't finish the program certainly, also only includes the students who thought their application was strong enough to apply, probably only includes students sponsored by the committee which isn't everyone, and is also two years out. The 100% acceptance rates the top programs have are based on matriculants. That means if you are accepted into the program you're accepted into med school, end of discussion. Columbia might be a top 10 undergrad but that's not because they take everyone with a 3.0 in high school into the program.

Thanks for posting this! I truly wonder at the Columbia postbac promotion that seems to be dominating these forums as of late. Super weird to have two posters who have only posted re: Columbia.

Anywho, OP, I've said my piece before, feel free to look back at my previous posts or PM me if you'd like info about the Columbia program from soup to nuts. You'll certainly get in, but it's nice to be aware of both pros and cons before you decide to go.

 

[Audman]

Hi Zaly03. I am also a current Columbia postbac premed student. Regarding your initial question, you'll probably be admitted to the postbac program based on your stats. 3.0 is the minimum GPA, and yours is certainly a lot higher than that.

Regarding the ridiculous notion that Columbia is "second tier", you need to be careful about what you hear on this forum as there are many unsubstantiated and unfounded rumors and opinions (including on this thread). By any legitimate academic measure, Columbia is one of top ten universities in the country and medical schools recognize this fact. Medical schools recognize the rigour of Columbia science classes and the competitive curve in Columbia classes (only 35% As and A-s in intro lectures). Getting an A or A- from Columbia means a lot more than getting the same grade at a less reputed school (bm, goucher, scripps, etc.). Some of these schools may have 100% acceptance rates to med schools, but that's because they have a small postbac class, accepting only the top students. Any school can do that, and certainly if Columbia chose to do that, it would also have a 100% acceptance rate to med schools. The difference would be that a small postbac class at Columbia would probably all attend Ivy League med schools (Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Yale, etc.). By the way, Columbia, despite its very large class, still has 90% admission to med schools on the first applications. So the "100%" admission stat some cite on this forum for bm, goucher, scripps is an inconsequential statistic. It tells you almost nothing about how those less reputable schools will prepare a particular candidate for med school admissions versus Columbia. Any person who'll be admitted to med school by attending those other schools will also be admitted to med school if they attended Columbia. The difference is that a Columbia education (assuming comparable performance at the different schools) will likely get you into a higher ranked medical school.

I believe Columbia is the best postbac program for many aspiring doctors based on Columbia's reputation, rigorous program, proven history of helping students get into med schools, large and congenial postbac cohorts, many premed resources like volunteer opportunities and advising, and great facilities. Only Harvard and Penn have comparable reputation, but you don't take the same classes as undergrads in those programs. The key thing you should consider is whether you can do well at a competitive program like Columbia. If you can be in the top half of the class, you'll have a pick of med schools to attend, including the top med schools in the country. If you don't think you can do well academically, you should consider whether you can do significantly better at another program (Hunter, NYU, City College, etc.). A 3.3 GPA from Columbia will be a lot better than 3.3 from elsewhere and will probably get you into med school, but if you can get a 3.7 GPA elsewhere, that may improve your med school admissions chances.

Best of luck!

Hmm... lol I may have to say... Columbia is indeed not the top tier post-bac program. I currently attend the UPenn one... and as much as I'd like to say both columbia and UPenn is top tier, it isn't the case. Though I can understand your desire to defend your school, doing so with out of loyalty to your current institution and passing false information as a result seems pretty "unethical." Considering we're all trying to get into medicine... perhaps you should be a bit more objective and not subjective.

The reason Bryn Mawr is considered "tier one" is because of its long history of the program. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, BM is the OLDEST post-bac program. Thus it has the most linkage opportunities- long term, positive relationship with the medical schools. Its also a one year program, opposed to our (columbia and penn) two year "standard" program. Granted, you can finish it in a year + summer.

I got into Columbia, but chose Penn because Penn has a better hospital system. Not to mention, UPenn's Medical School is the nations oldest med school? (again correct me if I'm wrong). Something has to be said about that... perhaps better research is produced here?

You say Harvard's program is comparable? lol you are mistaken. Harvards program is a joke. They accept anyone even people with GPA's lower than a 3.0 in their program. Their acceptance rates into medical school is 70 ~ 90% ... according to their director (whom I had the pleasure of speaking to over the phone... nice guy). UPenn's acceptance rate is 95%. I do not know about columbia's but I suspect its comparable to Penn.

As far as classes with the undergrads... lol to your comment. Here is how it works! You take classes with the undergrads... theres TWO things to consider:
1) negative: They're fresh out of high school. They've taken their AP's just last year or two years ago. I've taken those AP's like 6 years ago. Classes like physics- where heavy math and AP physics ... they'll have a slight advantage over who took AP physics and are redoing it since their major requires them to and do not accept AP's

2) positive: YOu're sitting in class with about 400 kids. truth be told... most of them are being weeded out. What does that mean for you? better curve. Why? because you're motivated and those freshman, though some are serious and motivated, most of them just got their freedom and are going to party and show up to class hung over. Face it, many of us have experienced freshman year. Whereas you have a class geared toward post-bacs... whom are subjected to same curve as undergrads and not to mention, some undergrads do take the courses... you fill a room full of older, mature, who are here for one reason and that reason only... greater and fiercer competition.

I know at Penn, once your'e in you have the option of taking day time (with the undergrads), night time (geared for post-bacs), mixture of both, and/or whatever classes you want, event at wharton. This is a long post. I hope I was more objective than subjective. Good luck!

Edit: I hope Drizztt is wrong! lol Though I have heard from many people, reputable people in the field say that GPA's are weighted. Think about it. It makes logical sense. Like NYCpremedical said, the educational difference, though may be marginal, do exist. Even within the same institution, there are disparities in different professors grading methodologies. Imagine that and expand that to the scale of an entire nation. Greater disparities. Each institution has a reputation of grading system. Some how, things HAVE To be normalized. Otherwise, it wouldn't be fair. Like you're lab grades being normalized in a single class (like bio, chem, or physics), due to the disparities in different TA grading- some ta's being a relaxed, "chill" grader and another being an A**... The bottom line is none of us knows how the selection process works. But this makes logical sense to me and I can hope that a tougher university has a greater merit. ... one could hope!! haha

 

[Zaly03]

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[drizzt3117]

Edit: I hope Drizztt is wrong! lol Though I have heard from many people, reputable people in the field say that GPA's are weighted. Think about it. It makes logical sense. Like NYCpremedical said, the educational difference, though may be marginal, do exist. Even within the same institution, there are disparities in different professors grading methodologies. Imagine that and expand that to the scale of an entire nation. Greater disparities. Each institution has a reputation of grading system. Some how, things HAVE To be normalized. Otherwise, it wouldn't be fair. Like you're lab grades being normalized in a single class (like bio, chem, or physics), due to the disparities in different TA grading- some ta's being a relaxed, "chill" grader and another being an A**... The bottom line is none of us knows how the selection process works. But this makes logical sense to me and I can hope that a tougher university has a greater merit. ... one could hope!! haha

Going to a tougher undergrad might help you a little bit, but not really that much. I went to arguably the most difficult undergrad in the country (MIT) and was a Chem E major. Having a really strong science background has helped lots with research and with understanding concepts, but not really all that much in terms of med school admissions. I did just fine in my cycle and got into top med schools (including Columbia) but I would have done equally well if not better by getting a 3.9-4.0 at my state school than getting a 3.5 at a top school. It took two years postbac and a ~40 MCAT to become a top tier candidate whereas getting a ~4.0 at a state school would still be better no matter how much easier it is (and trust me, it would have been much easier)

As far as difficulty in a postbac program? It doesn't help at all and if you get lower grades because you go to a tougher program it's going to hurt you. The name of the program helps if there is a pipeline between your program and the school you're going to, true, but it won't help if you don't get As in your prereqs. In general, postbacs are taking far less classes than the average premed, so if they don't do well in them, they'll be downgraded for that. If you read my previous post, I actually did admissions (for a top 25 med school) and can tell you this is exactly how we evaluated people.

As far as Penn goes, I don't believe the 95% acceptance value one bit but I think it's a good program in a nice city, I did my masters there. We have someone from the program in our now M2 class.

 

[deleted248403]

As far as Penn goes, I don't believe the 95% acceptance value one bit but I think it's a good program in a nice city, I did my masters there. We have someone from the program in our now M2 class.

I too don't believe for one second Penn's claim about 95% for their prehealth students and 85% for their special sciences. Its completely garbage to me, and I am in the program.

I do believe its a decent program, but I do believe its a 2nd tier program.

 

[Audman]

Agreed. I was just stating the "advertised" numbers... as I'm sure the earlier poster's comment about 90% or whatever for Columbia was actually also an advertised number...

Well drizz... one could still hope haha... Because at times I "regret" coming to a "tougher" university. As my classmates and I have discussed... Consensus was that perhaps we may be kicking ourselves in the butt having picked a school with just a good name?... BUT like i said, one could hope lol even if it gives a SLIGHT advantage... its still an advantage ... trying to look at the bright side!! lol

 

[drizzt3117]

The thing is that a lot of the top tier programs (with the exception of Hopkins I think) have uncurved grading and many have classes w/o undergrads. I think the average GPA in my program (Scripps) was 3.8+ Anyways, all you can do is your best and see what happens.

Agreed. I was just stating the "advertised" numbers... as I'm sure the earlier poster's comment about 90% or whatever for Columbia was actually also an advertised number...

Well drizz... one could still hope haha... Because at times I "regret" coming to a "tougher" university. As my classmates and I have discussed... Consensus was that perhaps we may be kicking ourselves in the butt having picked a school with just a good name?... BUT like i said, one could hope lol even if it gives a SLIGHT advantage... its still an advantage ... trying to look at the bright side!! lol

 

[meddream2014]

I have to come in and defend Columbia here...I am currently in the program and really enjoying my experience. I chose it because my research before I started led me to determine that it is a top program for what I wanted.


Since there are no formal rankings for Postbac programs, I am not sure how people are individually determining whether a program is top-tier, second-tier, etc. Just based on the opinions posted on forums? Personal concerns about advising or inaccurate rumors about attrition (this came up on another thread. See this link from the Columbia website: http://www.gs.columbia.edu/postbac/attrition) are not going to make or break a program to a medical school admissions committee. If you want actual rankings, you can always look at the undergrad rankings (which I think a lot of people go by anyway). Columbia is in the top ten there. Since we take the exact same classes as undergraduates with the same faculty and have access to the same resources, I would say this ranking could be extended to the Premed Postbac program. However, I would suggest looking for what matters to you on the individual program websites (number of students, advising, curriculum, linkage opportunities, medical school acceptances, medical school admissions rate, etc.) and visiting all the programs especially if you're already in NYC to make the best decision for you.


Also- at the Columbia Postbac information session, they told us that the average incoming GPA at Columbia is a 3.6. It didn't seem like they will even consider people with GPAs under 3.0 (no matter one's test scores) but I don't know.


Best of luck with your decision! Feel free to PM me if you want more information on my experience at Columbia.

Hi did you get into the program and if so what was your gpa and SAT . because i have a 3.5 and low SAT

 

[Froggy25]

I'll jump in here. I started the Columbia program this semester and I love it.

BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front): It costs $75 or whatever to apply and you just might be surprised.

Background: I went to a top 100 national university for my undergrad (graduated in 2003), majored in computational mathematics and had a steady 2.8 cGPA. SInce then, I did a master's degree in International Relations with a 3.75 GPA from a mid-tier national university (2008) and spent 11 years in the military (Special Operations). My SAT was a 1220 and my ACT was a 27 (both taken in 1998).

At 33 years old, I am on the top end of my post-bac class but I'm not the oldest. Most of my peers are within 3-4 years of having graduated college, and many are 0 or 1 year out of school. They have significantly better stats then me from their undergrad. I'm the only person that I am aware of in the program who was sub-3.0 in the GPA category during undergrad, but there might be others. I believe, but cannot confirm, that my life experience, standardized test scores and strong letters of recommendation from physicians and supervisors got me into the program. I was rejected by several programs (Loyola-Chicago, LaSalle, Hofstra, UPenn and maybe a few more) and accepted at Northwestern, UNC-Greensboro, Dominican…. maybe one or two more that I can't remember.

At first, I was nervous that I was going to be academic cannon fodder for the curve (all classes are curved, thank God) but that didn't turn out to be the case. Sure, some of the folks in the post-bac program are former nuclear or aeronautical engineers who went to top-10 schools (I know of 3 for sure) but most of us were not astrophysicists in our former lives.

As far as tiering goes, I don't know how to answer the JHU / BM people. The Columbia program boasts a 90% success rate, though I don't know how that can be independently verified. Columbia also has linkage agreements with 14 med schools and seems to add more on a somewhat regular basis (NYU Med was added last year). It's an Ivy League school and everyone takes the same classes together; therefore, I would surmise that however you think a traditional Columbia undergrad would be viewed by medical school ADCOMs is how we post-bacs get viewed, and most of us have at least some life experience to throw on top. I know about a half dozen or so people that have finished the program in the last year and none of them know anyone who finished the program and were not accepted somewhere. That's not to say that those people don't exist, I just don't know of any. From what I've seen so far, those students that struggle with the program opt to withdraw instead of seeing it through. I can think of two guys who are gone already. 15 students from the program linked to the Columbia School of Physicians and Surgeons this year. 3 veterans (just veterans, mind you) were accepted to Harvard Med last year from the Columbia program. I'd say that's pretty good.

With all that said, what the heck do I know - I'm not even a semester down yet so this is just my 2 cents.

Back to Gen Chem...


Froggy

 

[trudy]

You'll get in; but will you want to stay in is another matter.

 

[Ssha]

I'll jump in here. I started the Columbia program this semester and I love it.

BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front): It costs $75 or whatever to apply and you just might be surprised.

Background: I went to a top 100 national university for my undergrad (graduated in 2003), majored in computational mathematics and had a steady 2.8 cGPA. SInce then, I did a master's degree in International Relations with a 3.75 GPA from a mid-tier national university (2008) and spent 11 years in the military (Special Operations). My SAT was a 1220 and my ACT was a 27 (both taken in 1998).

At 33 years old, I am on the top end of my post-bac class but I'm not the oldest. Most of my peers are within 3-4 years of having graduated college, and many are 0 or 1 year out of school. They have significantly better stats then me from their undergrad. I'm the only person that I am aware of in the program who was sub-3.0 in the GPA category during undergrad, but there might be others. I believe, but cannot confirm, that my life experience, standardized test scores and strong letters of recommendation from physicians and supervisors got me into the program. I was rejected by several programs (Loyola-Chicago, LaSalle, Hofstra, UPenn and maybe a few more) and accepted at Northwestern, UNC-Greensboro, Dominican…. maybe one or two more that I can't remember.

At first, I was nervous that I was going to be academic cannon fodder for the curve (all classes are curved, thank God) but that didn't turn out to be the case. Sure, some of the folks in the post-bac program are former nuclear or aeronautical engineers who went to top-10 schools (I know of 3 for sure) but most of us were not astrophysicists in our former lives.

As far as tiering goes, I don't know how to answer the JHU / BM people. The Columbia program boasts a 90% success rate, though I don't know how that can be independently verified. Columbia also has linkage agreements with 14 med schools and seems to add more on a somewhat regular basis (NYU Med was added last year). It's an Ivy League school and everyone takes the same classes together; therefore, I would surmise that however you think a traditional Columbia undergrad would be viewed by medical school ADCOMs is how we post-bacs get viewed, and most of us have at least some life experience to throw on top. I know about a half dozen or so people that have finished the program in the last year and none of them know anyone who finished the program and were not accepted somewhere. That's not to say that those people don't exist, I just don't know of any. From what I've seen so far, those students that struggle with the program opt to withdraw instead of seeing it through. I can think of two guys who are gone already. 15 students from the program linked to the Columbia School of Physicians and Surgeons this year. 3 veterans (just veterans, mind you) were accepted to Harvard Med last year from the Columbia program. I'd say that's pretty good.

With all that said, what the heck do I know - I'm not even a semester down yet so this is just my 2 cents.

Back to Gen Chem...


Froggy

Hello Froggy,

I know this is a very old post but I wanted to know how your experience has been since the program. What is the courses you took in the program? Is this program open to students who have done their premed requirements? Thank you!