How dangerous is an average to bad LOR?

[bea524]

I'll have a 3.66-3.75 cGPA and a 32-33ish MCAT. I haven't really "bonded" with any of my professors because I found out a little too late that just any letter wouldn't cut it, and that in the letter you needed to be showered with praises from whoever wrote it. (had I known this before, I would definitely have interacted much differently with at least a few profs, but I basically just did my work, asked a few questions during office hours and that's it, never once made small talk with any of them unfortunately).

Unfortunately it's also too late for me to become close enough to a prof who can write me a killer LOR. Most likely scenario is that I get an average letter.

Does this kill my chances with a ~3.7/32?

Am I in any way able to SEE the letter so I can determine whether or not it's something I want to send? It's my future after all.

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[just one]

While this depends on the school, my school's viewpoint on LOR is this:

A lOR will not get you into the school, however it may keep you out. Basically they look at the applicants and if the LOR is damaging, then you get tossed out. If it is not, you pass that checkpoint. But a glowing LOR does not place you at the top of the pile.

Now what is considered a bad LOR? A generic LOR is not necessarily bad, you should really try and get at least one from someone that really knows you. This is why people should be thinking about application season long before application season starts. Same with the personal statement. There is no reason writing a personal statement should hold up an application, but it happens all the time.

 

[bea524]

While this depends on the school, my school's viewpoint on LOR is this:

A lOR will not get you into the school, however it may keep you out. Basically they look at the applicants and if the LOR is damaging, then you get tossed out. If it is not, you pass that checkpoint. But a glowing LOR does not place you at the top of the pile.

Now what is considered a bad LOR? A generic LOR is not necessarily bad, you should really try and get at least one from someone that really knows you. This is why people should be thinking about application season long before application season starts. Same with the personal statement. There is no reason writing a personal statement should hold up an application, but it happens all the time.

What kind of professor would write a damaging LOR though? Seems like only a total d-bag of a prof would do that.

 

[Musclemass]

What kind of professor would write a damaging LOR though? Seems like only a total d-bag of a prof would do that.

Well, not as big of a d-bag as someone who fails to develop good relationships with people because no one told him it was in his self interest to do so.

HAHAHAHA

 

[rhesuspieces]

Well, not as big of a d-bag as someone who fails to develop good relationships with people because no one told him it was in his self interest to do so.

HAHAHAHA

OK, that was unnecessarily mean but sort of true. There really is no excuse for not having at least 3 profs who know you and like you well enough to write a great rec.

OP, are you applying this cycle? If not, then you still have plenty of time to build a good relationship with a prof. Also, unless you are really, really concerned that the letter is negative, you should waive all rights to see the letter. Otherwise, med schools will be concerned that you've edited the letter or withheld information.

 

[bea524]

Well, not as big of a d-bag as someone who fails to develop good relationships with people because no one told him it was in his self interest to do so.

HAHAHAHA

Yeah, unfortunately I realized too late that I would have been better off acting like the stereotypical pre-med who sucks up to every prof and cries about getting a 92.5% instead of a 95% (you).

 

[bea524]

OK, that was unnecessarily mean but sort of true. There really is no excuse for not having at least 3 profs who know you and like you well enough to write a great rec.

OP, are you applying this cycle? If not, then you still have plenty of time to build a good relationship with a prof. Also, unless you are really, really concerned that the letter is negative, you should waive all rights to see the letter. Otherwise, med schools will be concerned that you've edited the letter or withheld information.

That is unfortunately the reality of the my situation though. Whether or not I should have built these relationships during my first few years (I know now that I should have) is irrelevant because I can't change the past. What's done is done.

The profs don't have anything "negative" to say about me, but I have good reason to believe that it'll be nothing more than an average LOR.

My question is if a 3.7/32 can offset a mediocre LOR.

 

[muhali3]

Average LORs are fine. LORs are used to eliminate applicants if there is something explicitly bad written about the applicant in them. If there isn't anything bad, it is ok. Even if it says "bea524 got an A in my class and came to my office hours for help. I think he/she will be a good medical student." As long as there isn't something sending red flags written in there, it isn't as big of a problem as you think.

 

[bea524]

Average LORs are fine. LORs are used to eliminate applicants if there is something explicitly bad written about the applicant in them. If there isn't anything bad, it is ok. Even if it says "bea524 got an A in my class and came to my office hours for help. I think he/she will be a good medical student." As long as there isn't something sending red flags written in there, it isn't as big of a problem as you think.

I guess my question is why would any applicant ask for a letter from a teacher he/she rubbed the wrong way.

Shouldn't these students have a good idea whether the teacher is someone likely to write a positive LOR?

 

[334961]

What kind of professor would write a damaging LOR though? Seems like only a total d-bag of a prof would do that.

Not necessarily. An LOR from a professor that doesn't care enough about the student to watch what he says may unconsciously slant the LOR negatively. Even then, his comments are subjective so a neutral/positive tone from the LOR writer may be interpreted negatively by adcoms.

 

[muhali3]

well I don't think bad LORs are common, but neither are extremely good ones. Most people, by definition, do have average LORs, which won't help or hurt you.

Some people may pick teachers that they had no actual impression on. The teacher may say that there was "nothing memorable about this student and I can not assess whether he/she is fit for medical school." Mostly only douchebag teachers will do this, but some people don't have good douchebag teacher detection skills. If you ask a teacher to write you an LOR, they most likely won't say no to your face, and they'll write one anyways even if they don't want to. That could also result in an LOR with a bad tone.

That's why you should at least develop some familiarity with your teachers. You don't have to make fake relationships with them. But they should at least know your face and name, and if you've gone to their office hours enough so that they remember you, that should be good enough.

 

[Musclemass]

Yeah, unfortunately I realized too late that I would have been better off acting like the stereotypical pre-med who sucks up to every prof and cries about getting a 92.5% instead of a 95% (you).

Your comments are suggestive of someone who has a one dimensional understanding of a three dimensional world. Don't pass by the subtleties and nuances quite so fast.

To answer your original question, most LORs of successful candidates are quite laudatory. A strong endorsement from a credible person who says "Hey, I've known this person in the context of X, and here's how terrific my experience was" provides important information to flesh out the cold facts of the app.

Most applicants are careful to only request letters from people who they are confident will write strong and positive ones. It's a red flag if someone has only lukewarm letters.

 

[gravitywave]

honestly, who has the time to write a damning letter? what an incredibly vindictive thing to do; i'd even consider it unprofessional. People who can't write you a good letter should tell you so when you ask them. anyone who can't find three people with whom they've worked to say nice things about them for a couple pages probably doesn't belong in medical school.

the best letters don't get you in by themselves - but they sure do help by fleshing the applicant out as a person. The more 3D the presentation you make to schools, the better they understand you as an applicant and the easier it is for them to buy what you're pitching them.

 

[wanderer]

Yeah, unfortunately I realized too late that I would have been better off acting like the stereotypical pre-med who sucks up to every prof and cries about getting a 92.5% instead of a 95% (you).

I'm pretty sure that a student that does that will get a poor letter. There's nothing more annoying that fighting for a point or two when it ends up making no difference in the final grade (especially when the student is going to end up with an A or A- anyways).

OK, that was unnecessarily mean but sort of true. There really is no excuse for not having at least 3 profs who know you and like you well enough to write a great rec.

Yea. Professors just have to know how you interact in the classroom and whether or not you or a decent person. They don't have to know you well enough that they could give your eulogy. It seems that the most successful applicants have at least one extremely personalized letter though.

 

[the duck]

I'll have a 3.66-3.75 cGPA and a 32-33ish MCAT. I haven't really "bonded" with any of my professors because I found out a little too late that just any letter wouldn't cut it, and that in the letter you needed to be showered with praises from whoever wrote it. (had I known this before, I would definitely have interacted much differently with at least a few profs, but I basically just did my work, asked a few questions during office hours and that's it, never once made small talk with any of them unfortunately).

Unfortunately it's also too late for me to become close enough to a prof who can write me a killer LOR. Most likely scenario is that I get an average letter.

Does this kill my chances with a ~3.7/32?

Am I in any way able to SEE the letter so I can determine whether or not it's something I want to send? It's my future after all.

At a conference over the weekend, I heard the Dean of Admiss. at UCSF say that a negative comment in a single letter, equals automatic rejection. He said that if anyone seems at all hesitant to write you a letter, back off and move on.

 

[the duck]

honestly, who has the time to write a damning letter? what an incredibly vindictive thing to do; i'd even consider it unprofessional. People who can't write you a good letter should tell you so when you ask them. anyone who can't find three people with whom they've worked to say nice things about them for a couple pages probably doesn't belong in medical school.

the best letters don't get you in by themselves - but they sure do help by fleshing the applicant out as a person. The more 3D the presentation you make to schools, the better they understand you as an applicant and the easier it is for them to buy what you're pitching them.

While I feel that if you simply feel you don't know a person well enough to really write a letter, say so is fine. However, if I was in a position to write a LOR and I felt someone truelly would make a bad doctor and they asked me for a LOR, it is my duty to society to keep him/her out of medical school.

 

[lollybo]

While I feel that if you simply feel you don't know a person well enough to really write a letter, say so is fine. However, if I was in a position to write a LOR and I felt someone truelly would make a bad doctor and they asked me for a LOR, it is my duty to society to keep him/her out of medical school.

I think that would be an extremely selfish and insensitive thing to do. First, one's own experience with an applicant may be limited/biased, and it could not be reflective of the applicant as a whole. Secondly, it costs so much effort, time, money, and worry to apply to medical school, it would be extremely mean to write a letter in that manner.

 

[kiwifruit487]

You guys are WAY too idealistic.

There are people who will write bad LOR, and they won't tell you. Which is WHY you should NEVER EVER ASSUME. I was told, always ask my professors "can you write a GOOD/STRONG LOR for me?" Also, if you think the prof don't know you well enough, then MAKE IT EASIER FOR THEM. OFFER yourself to talk to them, have a meeting, get to know each other. Tell them, hey look, I need a letter, and I'd love to come in and chat.

Sometimes, you'll walk away from a job or class and you think everything went well... but sometimes the other party thinks differently. EXACTLY why you need to ask for a good letter.

And honestly, it's NOT d-bag of anyone to write a negative letter as long as it's HONEST. I'm not going to tell ppl, oh this person is the best thing since sliced bread if that person IS NOT!!!

So if you want at least good letters, ASK FOR THEM TO BE GOOD!!!!

 

[searun]

I got a great letter of recommendation from the chairman of my chemistry department. He used to invite me over to his house on weekends for lunch so I could teach his 12 year old kid how to skateboard. I turned the kid into a killer skateboader with alot of street cred and, needless to say, I was praised to the heavens in the LOR the prof wrote for me.

Moral of the story: you have gotta do what you gotta do. The dean of admissions at the med school I attend told me that is was one of the best letters of recommendation that he had ever read. Yep, skateboarding, you never know.

OH, another point. I am currently going through the residency application process for a competitive surgical residency. When I ask for a letter of recommendation, I always ask if the faculty member would be willing to write a STRONG letter of recommendation....not just a letter of recommendation but a strong letter of recommendation. If there is any hesitation, avoid getting a letter of recommendation from that individual. A negative letter of recommendation is the kiss of death, even if your numbers are good.

 

[loveoforganic]

I think the impact of a single bad letter is a little overplayed here. I know of someone who was accepted after one of their letter writers took the time to write a letter to the med school revoking the letter and stating the applicant wasn't mature enough for med school (the student left the lab after the letter had been written). Adcom are going to look for trends in your letters. A single bad one or bad comment probably won't sink you everywhere if it isn't corroborated with other elements of your application. Obviously still isn't a good thing though

 

[bea524]

Do people who decide NOT to waive their rights to see the letter ever get in?

If so, what would have been their excuse for not waving their rights (other than fearing a negative LOR)?

 

[gravitywave]

While I feel that if you simply feel you don't know a person well enough to really write a letter, say so is fine. However, if I was in a position to write a LOR and I felt someone truelly would make a bad doctor and they asked me for a LOR, it is my duty to society to keep him/her out of medical school.

And honestly, it's NOT d-bag of anyone to write a negative letter as long as it's HONEST. I'm not going to tell ppl, oh this person is the best thing since sliced bread if that person IS NOT!!!

wrong, and wrong. of course people should always ask for good letters, but ultimately it is a letter of recommendation. The letter should recommend the applicant to the program. I believe the practice grew out of the old "letters of introduction" that people used to get before telephones... so that the recipient would know who the bearer was, and that his credentials were legitimate. letters aren't evaluations - they're references, written by people willing to vouch for you.

if you give bad references in the business world, you can get sued.

it's unprofessional to write bad letters, and it's unprofessional to say you will write one, and then put bad stuff in it. it happens, but it shouldn't. when someone asks for a letter and you can't in good conscience write a good one, the appropriate response is, "I'm sorry, you should find someone else to do this for you. I don't think I'm the best person to ask." and leave it at that. It's not your responsibility to keep someone out of med school "for the good of society." it's not your call, that's why we have adcoms. sheesh.

 

[hiyaman]

While I feel that if you simply feel you don't know a person well enough to really write a letter, say so is fine. However, if I was in a position to write a LOR and I felt someone truelly would make a bad doctor and they asked me for a LOR, it is my duty to society to keep him/her out of medical school.

Anyone who does this most likely has some personal issues with themselves. If you can't write something positive, don't write the letter. Only a total ******* who has forgotten how hard life is would do this.

Also this is why it is recommended to ask professors if they can write a strong positive LOR for you. If they can't then they will say no. I don't think a professor would say yes then secretly **** you in the ass.

 

[searun]

I think the impact of a single bad letter is a little overplayed here. I know of someone who was accepted after one of their letter writers took the time to write a letter to the med school revoking the letter and stating the applicant wasn't mature enough for med school (the student left the lab after the letter had been written). Adcom are going to look for trends in your letters. A single bad one or bad comment probably won't sink you everywhere if it isn't corroborated with other elements of your application. Obviously still isn't a good thing though

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You are naive. A bad letter of recommendation is usually the kiss of death. Do not get one. If you understand the process, you should be able to avoid a bad letter of recommendation.

In the history of med school applications, has any applicant with a bad letter of recommendation be admitted. Sure. But do not get one.