How do African immigrant groups feel about making up an increasing number of Black students at medical schools?

[mattpehler]

Obviously as a race, those who identify as Black or African Americans are still very underrepresented in medicine. But when you consider the makeup of medical schools today, especially at top high stat schools, it seems that the majority of those that identify as Black or African American are coming from African immigrant origins. Obviously being Black is not a monolith and there's different cultural and social factors among groups in the African Diaspora, which is leading to this effect.

But considering the boost that the URM status gives, isn't it benefitting African Immigrant groups over those that come from African American communities in the U.S? Is the benefit of increased representation the same to African Americans communities in the U.S if that representation is coming overwhelmingly from African immigrant groups?

I really don't know what or how to think about this, especially considering that so many medical schools and teaching hospitals are in majority urban African American communities.

If anyone could share their viewpoint or share articles, I would really appreciate it.

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[Mad Jack]

Obviously as a race, those who identify as Black or African Americans are still very underrepresented in medicine. But when you consider the makeup of medical schools today, especially at top high stat schools, it seems that the majority of those that identify as Black or African American are coming from African immigrant origins. Obviously being Black is not a monolith and there's different cultural and social factors among groups in the African Diaspora, which is leading to this effect.

But considering the boost that the URM status gives, isn't it benefitting African Immigrant groups over those that come from African American communities in the U.S? Is the benefit of increased representation the same to African Americans communities in the U.S if that representation is coming overwhelmingly from African immigrant groups?

I really don't know what or how to think about this, especially considering that so many medical schools and teaching hospitals are in majority urban African American communities.

If anyone could share their viewpoint or share articles, I would really appreciate it.

They aren't taking spots from other Black applicants. Even with African applicants in the mix Black matriculants remain underrepresented proportional to their share of the population. Can't really see what the concern is.

 

[mattpehler]

They aren't taking spots from other Black applicants. Even with African applicants in the mix Black matriculants remain underrepresented proportional to their share of the population. Can't really see what the concern is.

I was referring more to the trends we're seeing at medical schools of Black representation. For example, suppose the AAMC is able to push for an AA/Black representation of 14% at medical schools in the U.S (current is around 7-8% I think), but this makeup is of 4-5% African Americans and 9-10% African immigrant groups. Then I think it would be important to ask if African Americans are being represented in medicine and if we are increasing the amount of physicians coming from African American communities?

Also, it's not really "taking spots" but it is very evident at stat selective schools that over 60-80% of black students are from African immigrant groups. This might suggest that applicants from African immigrant groups have higher stats and they outcompete other URM applicants for admission. So in the case of very selective top schools, you could say that African immigrant groups are "taking spots," however, I don't know if that's necessarily bad, which is why I wanted to get other opinions.

 

[Mad Jack]

I was referring more to the trends we're seeing at medical schools of Black representation. For example, suppose the AAMC is able to push for an AA/Black representation of 14% at medical schools in the U.S (current is around 7-8% I think), but this makeup is of 4-5% African Americans and 9-10% African immigrant groups. Then I think it would be important to ask if African Americans are being represented in medicine and if we are increasing the amount of physicians coming from African American communities?

Also, it's not really "taking spots" but it is very evident at stat selective schools that over 60-80% of black students are from African immigrant groups. This might suggest that applicants from African immigrant groups have higher stats and they outcompete other URM applicants for admission. So in the case of very selective top schools, you could say that African immigrant groups are "taking spots," however, I don't know if that's necessarily bad, which is why I wanted to get other opinions.

There is a dearth of applications overall and you are largely speaking to hypotheticals that have not actually occurred, so I doubt you'll get much input

 

[Dave1980]

Obviously as a race, those who identify as Black or African Americans are still very underrepresented in medicine. But when you consider the makeup of medical schools today, especially at top high stat schools, it seems that the majority of those that identify as Black or African American are coming from African immigrant origins. Obviously being Black is not a monolith and there's different cultural and social factors among groups in the African Diaspora, which is leading to this effect.

But considering the boost that the URM status gives, isn't it benefitting African Immigrant groups over those that come from African American communities in the U.S? Is the benefit of increased representation the same to African Americans communities in the U.S if that representation is coming overwhelmingly from African immigrant groups?

I really don't know what or how to think about this, especially considering that so many medical schools and teaching hospitals are in majority urban African American communities.

If anyone could share their viewpoint or share articles, I would really appreciate it.

The point of affirmative action isn't to increase the number of African American doctors or give a boost to those with low SES but to increase the number of Black doctors.

So...what's your issue with it again?

 

[mattpehler]

There is a dearth of applications overall and you are largely speaking to hypotheticals that have not actually occurred, so I doubt you'll get much input

I understand the overall scarcity of Black applicants in general. I am asking these questions because I think we are seeing an overall constant or decrease in African American applicants while we're seeing an increase in applicants and matriculants of other Black subgroups. In 1973, 1,929 Black applicants total applied to medical schools. We don't have a breakup by subgroup but I would assume that the majority were African Americans considering the time. In 2018, 1,985 (44.8%) of all Black applicants identified as African American alone (not including multiple Black or African American Subgroups). I'm sure if you were to properly compare the numbers of African Americans in medical schools throughout the years, it would show a drastic decrease in proportion and a constant or decrease in actual numbers.

I think it is important to ask the question that as long as the overall Black matriculants numbers increase, does it matter if African American numbers in medicine don't? I think we can ask this question within other URM groups as well.

If you look at Hispanic applicants statistics, you see a similar trend of Mexican/Mexican American/Chicano groups when compared to those of other Hispanic backgrounds:
2002: 32.6% (798) of All Hispanic applicants(2,443) were Mexican/Mexican American/Chicano.
2018: 28.1% (926) of All Hispanic applicants(3,297) were Mexican/Mexican American/Chicano.
During this period Mexican applicant numbers increased slightly while other Hispanic group applicant numbers nearly doubled. Mexican groups make up 60+% of all Hispanic groups in the U.S.

By simply saying that we are increasing the number of URM or Black or Hispanic matriculants in medical schools, I think it overlooks representations of specific communities. These communities also make up the largest proportion of minorities in the general patient population.

The point of affirmative action isn't to increase the number of African American doctors or give a boost to those with low SES but to increase the number of Black doctors.

So...what's your issue with it again?

I never said I have an issue with affirmative action nor am I discussing it specifically.

What I am asking is:

Do you feel that also increasing representation of African Americans doctors specifically is important in medicine as opposed to just focusing on increasing Black doctors overall?

And If yes, then with the increasing proportion of Black medical students coming from African Immigrant groups, is increasing African American representation going to be overlooked?

 

[Dave1980]

Do you feel that also increasing representation of African Americans doctors specifically is important in medicine as opposed to just focusing on increasing Black doctors overall?

And If yes, then with the increasing proportion of Black medical students coming from African Immigrant groups, is increasing African American representation going to be overlooked?

Personally no I don't think it is important.

 

[vitafusion]

Do you feel that also increasing representation of African Americans doctors specifically is important in medicine as opposed to just focusing on increasing Black doctors overall?

This is an interesting point. As an AA, I personally do feel like it's important. Yes, in the end we're all black, but I do personally feel closer to people who have a similar background to me (family legacy from slavery, Jim Crow, family migrated from South, etc). I've heard my 1st and 2nd gen African immigrants friends say the same exact thing about feeling closer to other children of immigrants.

I do wonder why I've seen distinctions made on this board about different Hispanic groups, but if you bring up the distinctions between different black groups, everyone is just lumped together. Why does Mexican/Chilean/Colombian matter for hispanics when distinguishing URM, but Nigerian/AA/Jamaican all get lumped together? It doesn't make much sense honestly lol.

Also I found this article by Henry Louis Gates from the NY Times. It's kind of old, but touches on a lot of things you brought up in your post.

Top Colleges Take More Blacks, but Which Ones? (Published 2004)

African-American students whose families have been in America for generations are being left behind in affirmative action admissions policies at nation's elite universities; at Harvard, where 8 percent of undergraduates are black, majority are West Indian and African immigrants or children of...

www.nytimes.com

 

[WhittyPsyche]

A lot of generalizations here. I am an Afro-Caribbean, and I do not consider myself African American. Many first generation folks of the black diaspora do not identify as African-American.

One thing to keep in mind as you look at historical data is that the data is only as good as the question asked. Early demographic surveys only had the option for “Black” then “Black/African-American”, then later Black/AA and subcategories for African, Sub categories for Afro-Caribbean and Afro-Latino are VERY new in epidemiology and in Med school demographic data. Yet, there has long been a history of black immigrants from the Caribbean, Africa, and Europe entering Medicine in the U.S. at various levels. So some of what you see as “decline” is actually reflective of more accurate data collection.

As far as whether specific representation is needed for AAs I agree that it is important and I also agree that the lived experience, particularly for low SES AAs, is unique. Many of us black immigrants are also low SES but I have seen that there are salient differences that may serve to lift immigrants (home structure, emphasis on education and belief in social climbing through education, levels of learned helplessness, generational support, etc). I think low SES AAs often have a much harder time overcoming systemic racism in education and childhood than immigrants. So yes, I do believe special attention should be paid to that group.

However, I don’t think changing admissions stats, and particularly your focus on top School’s having more immigrants, actually solves that problem. The entire diaspora is significantly underrepresented. Importantly you demonstrated the difference between AA applicants, not matriculants. Black immigrants aren’t taking spots from AAs in who gets accepted to Harvard or whatever. There is still a pipeline problem that needs serious work and many know this and are working on this. The problem isn’t the high stat 2nd Gen African Med students at Harvard though.

 

[DirtBike]

I’m glad this was brought up because it’s something I’ve noticed as an AA applicant as well. Obviously it matters having a black caregiver for patients- but cultural background/ experience and being black from the ghetto (if you’re serving the ghetto) or being from black the rural area (if you’re serving the rural) matter just as much. Just my opinion and it probably varies upon region but at least in the Deep South… there’s a lot of pride/ relatability where you’re from

 

[idgit608]

Afro-Caribbean here. I don't identify as African American, but don't believe that PWIs make that distinction when they look at me.

In my medical school most of the students and ALL of the black doctors I've seen are not African American either. I brought this up before and people looked at me like I grew a second head.

I'm glad to see Black representation, but would be even happier to see African Americans get special attention due to the specific chronic impacts of American slavery and systemic oppression on their particular sub-group.

 

[Ogichi]

Afro-Caribbean here. I don't identify as African American, but don't believe that PWIs make that distinction when they look at me.

In my medical school most of the students and ALL of the black doctors I've seen are not African American either. I brought this up before and people looked at me like I grew a second head.

I'm glad to see Black representation, but would be even happier to see African Americans get special attention due to the specific chronic impacts of American slavery and systemic oppression on their particular sub-group.

Also Afro-Carribean and I had this discussion with my PI the other day where he reports more or less the same. I attend a T20 and far and away vast majority of black doctors and other black students I've met (this is why I mentioned my school ranking, for reference) have been African immigrants. I agree 100% with WhittyPsyches POV.

 

[Newtonian21]

The gap is there is no doubt for AA students. I am an African immigrant, to get that admission was not an easy thing. I came here with only $500 in my pocket and am now a medical student. There were days, I worried more about my classes than the clothes I had on to that same class. Nothing was given to me free, in fact, I have never gotten anything from the government since my arrival almost 12 years ago. I pay my taxes year in year out, and I do not owe one dime to uncle sam. I do not even know where the food bank is besides one time I went there for volunteer work. Looking back, I could have made use of the food bank on those days I was short on groceries but saved my tuition money instead. Instead of looking at the statistics and having endless discussions, we can be the change we want to see in the world. It would be nice if we all come together here and start a mentoring program for young brothers and sisters in the hood, and on the streets so that statistics can be changed. I knew how hard it was when I had no one to look up to as a mentor both in medicine or any field. Overall, social circumstances will be there of course, but the best way to make a difference is by doing something unique.

 

[justalittlestar]

I'm an AA female medical student and I have made mention of this to my non-AA Black counterparts in my class. It actually makes me kind of sad. Granted I'm sure that Af-Am enrollment is probably not as bad as previously was it's still very concerning. I just consider it more of a privelege when I'm out in the world representing a rich history. There definitely needs to be greater representation