how do colleges take into account your university?

[ramzax]

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I graduated from a rather good University, and as a result my GPA is somewhat lower than it would be had I attended a lesser school. Do admissions take that into account somehow?

 

[Mattabet]

my GPA is somewhat lower than it would be had I attended a lesser school

I don't think it's possible to know that, but we'll fiat that bit for now.

They may, take it into consideration. I've heard that some places look at the standard deviation or median GPA and use that as a correction factor. Of course, at a really 'superior' school like Harvard, where a lot of people do very well, it won't help you much. But somewhere that actually grades tough, where the mean is low, you might get some statistical help. (Although one might look at places that give 2.8 GPAs as a 'lesser' school)

 

[wjdghks]

They should but they don't

 

[PremedIowa]

I graduated from a rather good University, and as a result my GPA is somewhat lower than it would be had I attended a lesser school. Do admissions take that into account somehow?

I'm not sure if I like this phrase much. Cheers for respecting other schools.

 

[Mattabet]

I'm not sure if I like this phrase much. Cheers for respecting other schools.

👍 Actually the whole premise of the sentence gets me. 'Surely, I would have done better at a lesser school. I'm just too surrounded by greatness...'

 

[JJMrK]

There is like 1 thread/week on this topic. Trying searching.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

They should but they don't

Agreed. I went to a state school and I guarantee the grades were much easier to earn than at an Ivy league school. Well it's either that, or everyone at my state school is a genius, and I highly doubt it.

 

[LizzyM]

There are ways of categorizing undergrad schools by selectivity and medical schools can take that into consideration in deciding how to judge an applicant, particularly with regard to gpa.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

👍 Actually the whole premise of the sentence gets me. 'Surely, I would have done better at a lesser school. I'm just too surrounded by greatness...'

Sounds bad, but it's true.

 

[LizzyM]

👍 Actually the whole premise of the sentence gets me. 'Surely, I would have done better at a lesser school. I'm just too surrounded by greatness...'

Would you think that it is as easy to stand out as the top student in an intro biology course at Yale University as it is at the University of New Haven (where the combined reading/math SAT score is 1070)?

 

[Mattabet]

Sounds bad, but it's true.

Maybe it is, maybe it's not. But I'm guessing he didn't conduct multiple independent trials at different schools to be sure. I'm chalking it up to 'grass is greener' syndrome.

Although I agree with you, NoMore, in the sense that some schools give people an easier time than others. Obviously, the other people in the class come into account any time there's a curve. But at the end of the day, either you raise yourself up to the level of competition or you don't. To say that one's GPA is low because of schools greatness seems like a cop-out to me.

Such is life, I suppose.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Would you think that it is as easy to stand out as the top student in an intro biology course at Yale University as it is at the University of New Haven (where the combined reading/math SAT score is 1070)?

A lot of people on here don't like to draw any distinctions between schools, whether it be for undergrad or medical school. They're just fooling themselves. We all know which schools are packed full of the best students.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Maybe it is, maybe it's not. But I'm guessing he didn't conduct multiple independent trials at different schools to be sure. I'm chalking it up to 'grass is greener' syndrome.

Although I agree with you, NoMore, in the sense that some schools give people an easier time than others. Obviously, the other people in the class come into account any time there's a curve. But at the end of the day, either you raise yourself up to the level of competition or you don't. To say that one's GPA is low because of schools greatness seems like a cop-out to me.

Such is life, I suppose.

You don't have to do any trials or studies. We all know it's much harder to earn A's at Ivy league schools. Your competition is higher and the professors expect more from you.

 

[Mattabet]

Would you think that it is as easy to stand out as the top student in an intro biology course at Yale University as it is at the University of New Haven (where the combined reading/math SAT score is 1070)?

It's not the logic so much as the attribution. Clearly it would be logically easier to be the big fish in a smaller pond. But if I never tried in the small pond, can I be sure that I would be a big fish there? Maybe I'm just a medium sized fish.

Now I'm hungry for fish. Good thing it's Friday. Fish fry, anyone?

 

[LizzyM]

When we see an excellent gpa from a "no-name" school we look more closely at the MCAT. If it is at the 50-60th percentile, we know that the grades just reflect the lower level of competition at that school. If it is >90th percentile we suspect that this is a big fish with a lot of smarts who for one reason or another ended up in a very small pond.

 

[tjluke25]

i agree...stupid post -- but what they should look at is grade inflation...there are still a few schools out there who don't give As and Bs to everyone...

 

[tjluke25]

You don't have to do any trials or studies. We all know it's much harder to earn A's at Ivy league schools. Your competition is higher and the professors expect more from you.

Im not sure I agree that it is harder at all...If I'm not mistaken, the difficulty is in getting into these schools...after that it really depends on major...I have 2 friends at princton's with A- averages and one friend at Harvard who has like a 3.9. I was competitive with these kids in high school, and though I don't go to an ivy, I have a similar GPA. Plus, my valedictorian goes to Brown and had to calculate her gpa to apply to med school because they don't even tell you what it is.

 

[ramzax]

Hmm. I didn't think my thread would devolve into such a strange debate. I've actually compared the curriculum between my sciences courses and those of other schools which my friends have attended (schools ranked lower as well). I can assuredly say the expectations were far higher where I went. That said, whatever.

 

[LizzyM]

i agree...stupid post -- but what they should look at is grade inflation...there are still a few schools out there who don't give As and Bs to everyone...

Some schools will tell us in the committee letter what the avg gpa is among the student body or among all pre-meds and yada yada about the lack of grade inflation at the school. Some tell us the class rank and gpa so that we can see that a 3.78 is ranked 700 in a class of 1200 which tells you something. 😉 and some put the gpa in a another context (top 10%, top 25%, etc) that tells us rank independent of grade inflation. We have our ways of figuring out who has got what we are looking for.

 

[Mattabet]

Some schools will tell us in the committee letter what the avg gpa is among the student body or among all pre-meds and yada yada about the lack of grade inflation at the school. Some tell us the class rank and gpa so that we can see that a 3.78 is ranked 700 in a class of 1200 which tells you something. 😉 and some put the gpa in a another context (top 10%, top 25%, etc) that tells us rank independent of grade inflation. We have our ways of figuring out who has got what we are looking for.

👍 And this is probably the healthiest way to look at any individual stat: as part of the puzzle. Between GPA, MCAT, and rank, one can get a pretty good bearing on where someone stands.

It's just the categorical comparisons that bugs me. If I graduate cum laude from Northwestern, I don't think it's appropriate to assume I would have been summa cum laude at Madison but a 3.6 at Harvard.

By the way, tjluke, in my experience, that major thing is super true. People struggle through 5-year biomedical engineering degrees while their freshman dormmate falls arse-backwards into a sociology major. But that's just the game.

 

[witness23]

i think they do here and there, but the correction/standardization/whatever probably is not enough to make everyone happy.


do you guys ever think back to the time in high school when you were deciding between colleges? i don't know how I ended up choosing mine - probably because of its name and whatever. I don't think I would the same now.

 

[Handinhand]

I don't really understand this logic. So because you went to Harvard that means you have an excuse for a worse gpa? What's the logic behind this? Because the averages MIGHT have been higher than the national average you shouldn't be as culpable as someone who went to a lowly state school? If you get A scores you get an A, it shouldn't matter that you got a 93 and a lot of other kids got 99s and 100s. Is the material more difficult? I doubt that. I would like to see how you can make a class like OChem more difficult JUST because it's taught at an ivy league.

 

[redlight]

I don't really understand this logic. So because you went to Harvard that means you have an excuse for a worse gpa? What's the logic behind this? Because the averages MIGHT have been higher than the national average you shouldn't be as culpable as someone who went to a lowly state school? If you get A scores you get an A, it shouldn't matter that you got a 93 and a lot of other kids got 99s and 100s. Is the material more difficult? I doubt that. I would like to see how you can make a class like OChem more difficult JUST because it's taught at an ivy league.

professors can always make a test more challenging or longer or w/e if they want to control the class average..then you toss in grading on a curve and you start to see the difficulty. competing with valedictorians and the top 10% of high schools students (with top standardized scores to boot) is not the same as competing with students at party school x. the difficulty is not only being held to a higher standard in terms of what you are expected to retain and how you apply that knowledge though critical thinking. you cannot ignore the fact that there is more/fiercer competition for good grades at top schools.

 

[Handinhand]

Doing well in high school and doing well in college is completely different and should not be compared. You don't get a whole lot of points in college for doing the assigned homework problems every night like you do in highschool.

 

[redlight]

Doing well in high school and doing well in college is completely different and should not be compared. You don't get a whole lot of points in college for doing the assigned homework problems every night like you do in highschool.

actually, some science/math courses grade hw.

but you are missing the point. imagine you are sitting in a chem course where 90-100% of your grade is from curved tests.

scenario 1: the bulk of your class took AP/IB chem in high school, took SAT IIs in chemistry and did well, etc. they came out of school with a 3.8-4.0, top of their class, with a 2250-2400 SAT. these kids have been getting good grades for a while and want to continue that trend to get into grad schools/ land high profile jobs. you could say they are highly motivated/neurotic.

scenario 2: same chem class, but at a "3rd tier" party school. i'll let you fill in the blanks here in terms of student body academic credentials and their drive for top grad programs/jobs

lets assume both classes are graded on a curve. which class would likely be harder to get an A in?
yes i'm using extremes. im just trying to make a point.

 

[Handinhand]

actually, some science/math courses grade hw.

but you are missing the point. imagine you are sitting in a chem course where 90-100% of your grade is from curved tests.

scenario 1: the bulk of your class took AP/IB chem in high school, took SAT IIs in chemistry and did well, etc. they came out of school with a 3.8-4.0, top of their class, with a 2250-2400 SAT. these kids have been getting good grades for a while and want to continue that trend to get into grad schools/ land high profile jobs. you could say they are highly motivated/neurotic.

scenario 2: same chem class, but at a "3rd tier" party school. i'll let you fill in the blanks here in terms of student body academic credentials and their drive for top grad programs/jobs

lets assume both classes are graded on a curve. which class would likely be harder to get an A in?
yes i'm using extremes. im just trying to make a point.

and I'm saying that unless you're in a class that curves UP, meaning that a 94 or 95 would be an A-, if you do truly well, it doesn't matter. Basically, I think it's whiny bull**** that an ivy league student thinks they should get looked at differently because they got a 90% and it didn't get curved to an A.

This is why there is an MCAT, it's the equalizer. If you think it's unfair that some lower schools get an A curved down to say an 85 and some kids squeaked by with an A they didn't deserve, it will certainly show on the MCAT. Now maybe I'm off my ass here, but I don't think any "top tier" schools have an MCAT average that's 10 points above the national average of admitted students, so I would say it's fairly bull**** to say a 3.7 at Haavaahd is much different from a 3.7 at a state school, ESPECIALLY if there's no big difference in MCAT scores.

Honestly, I think it's just kids from these school whining because they've had their egos blown up thinking they are actually special because they were allowed to spend 100,000$ more on their education than me. I guess we'll see if and how wrong I am when I take the MCAT next summer and compare how much less "top teir" I am than those other geniuses...

 

[lrkoehle]

I graduated from a rather good University, and as a result my GPA is somewhat lower than it would be had I attended a lesser school. Do admissions take that into account somehow?

I'm not going to read all the other posts, but I want to comment on this statement. You went to a "good" university and THAT is why you have a lower GPA? If your university was so good, shouldn't they have done a good job teaching you things and giving you resources to be successful? That means if your university was good you should have a good GPA, right?

To answer your question, the ADCOM I spoke with said that at their school they did not factor in undergraduate institution.

 

[lrkoehle]

but you are missing the point. imagine you are sitting in a chem course where 90-100% of your grade is from curved tests.

Most of my chem classes did not curve, including the one I TA for. Oh, we tell the students we might curve, but even in semesters with only 2 or 3 students with A's we do not curve. I am at a big state school, so what does that mean for your curve theory?

 

[redlight]

and I'm saying that unless you're in a class that curves UP, meaning that a 94 or 95 would be an A-, if you do truly well, it doesn't matter. Basically, I think it's whiny bull**** that an ivy league student thinks they should get looked at differently because they got a 90% and it didn't get curved to an A.

OK, so when i say graded on a curve i mean it doesnt matter what # your score is. the average could be a 45, but if you get over 1STD over the average, you likely get an B+/A-/A.

This is why there is an MCAT, it's the equalizer. If you think it's unfair that some lower schools get an A curved down to say an 85 and some kids squeaked by with an A they didn't deserve, it will certainly show on the MCAT. Now maybe I'm off my ass here, but I don't think any "top tier" schools have an MCAT average that's 10 points above the national average of admitted students, so I would say it's fairly bull**** to say a 3.7 at Haavaahd is much different from a 3.7 at a state school, ESPECIALLY if there's no big difference in MCAT scores.

yep, i agree the mcat is the great equalizer. im not saying the 3.9 student at the party school wont get a 40 mcat. that's not where you see the difficulty of a school. what if that 3.9 student is not the product of low competition for As? it's hard to know whether the "A" student at school X would be a "B" student at school Y until we look at the m cat. for a better idea of how tough a school might be, look at the mediocre/solid but not stellar gpas. 3.5-3.7 from harvard versus, say, university of florida, will yield much different results (in terms of mcat score). md apps isnt the greatest source of data because it's biased upwards, but just check it out. this suggests that a 3.6 from harvard is tougher than a 3.6 from uf.

Honestly, I think it's just kids from these school whining because they've had their egos blown up thinking they are actually special because they were allowed to spend 100,000$ more on their education than me. I guess we'll see if and how wrong I am when I take the MCAT next summer and compare how much less "top teir" I am than those other geniuses...

ok now you just sound immature... 👎
all i was saying is the level of competition for grades in curved classes is likely tougher at higher ranked schools. the students have better academic credentials and are more motivated/nuerotic and go to grad schools and the like at higher rates. im just saying it's likely tougher to get good grades at top schools (at least in curved courses).

good luck on your mcat though.

.

 

[redlight]

Most of my chem classes did not curve, including the one I TA for. Oh, we tell the students we might curve, but even in semesters with only 2 or 3 students with A's we do not curve. I am at a big state school, so what does that mean for your curve theory?

im only talking about classes that curve. in these courses, profs control the grades and force students to compete against the curve for the A. im saying these courses are tougher to Ace at schools with stronger students... that is all..

 

[lrkoehle]

im only talking about classes that curve. in these courses, profs control the grades and force students to compete against the curve for the A. im saying these courses are tougher to Ace at schools with stronger students... that is all..

Yeah, I know you were talking about classes that curve, but therein lies the problem. It is really impossible to know what classes will curve and which ones won't. Even for the same course at the same university one professor may curve and another may not, so how is a medical school to know if a course at one school is curved or not? It just makes it difficult to make a broad generalization about one school being more difficult, IMO. Will there ever be a definitive answer to this question? Not likely. Will these threads continue to litter SDN forever? Of course. As I said, the ONE ADCOM I talked to said their school did not give any kind of bump to the GPA of students from "top universities." Is this the same at all schools, I don't know.

 

[redlight]

Yeah, I know you were talking about classes that curve, but therein lies the problem. It is really impossible to know what classes will curve and which ones won't. Even for the same course at the same university one professor may curve and another may not, so how is a medical school to know if a course at one school is curved or not? It just makes it difficult to make a broad generalization about one school being more difficult, IMO. Will there ever be a definitive answer to this question? Not likely. Will these threads continue to litter SDN forever? Of course. As I said, the ONE ADCOM I talked to said their school did not give any kind of bump to the GPA of students from "top universities." Is this the same at all schools, I don't know.

(i don"t think you can really compare student gpa"s across different schools). it's up to individual schools/departments/professors to set grading standards. some do, some dont ..i know that the chem professors here meet and discuss information they will cover, and how grades will be broken down (in the bio department, everyone is in the same class... no professor options, but grading changes from year to year and prof to prof. same with physics, except it is broken down between engineering and arts + sciences, which technically are different courses with different meeting times and course names, etc.).

and yea, some schools give brownie points to people from brand name schools (point system points, for example). im sure some schools dont care where you are from. i think the most prevelant biases would be from interviewers. if it is an open file interview, the interviewer may be immediately biased and impressed with the guy from harvard and allot more points to him than the lady from podunk U if they performed similarly. "maybe the harvard guy adds more prestige to the incoming class" could be running trough the interviewers mind. who knows? but yea, thats just speculation.

 

[soontobeadoc]

I guess we'll see if and how wrong I am when I take the MCAT next summer and compare how much less "top teir" I am than those other geniuses...

Maybe when you learn how to spell tier correctly you will appreciate why adcoms give more respect to those who attended better undergraduate institutions.

 

[Handinhand]

The only way I could see your university helping you gain admission is if you have an LOR from a professor who is well known by someone on the admissions committee. Even more so if you're applying to your universities med school, because your recommendations will usually be from people known to adcoms and carry more weight to them.

Really though, I'm sure the benefit is so minuscule it would be rare to find a situation where your UG University played a part in your admission; seeing as GPA, MCAT, ECs and LORs are FAR more important than who or where you were taught Gen chem.

 

[redlight]

The only way I could see your university helping you gain admission is if you have an LOR from a professor who is well known by someone on the admissions committee. Even more so if you're applying to your universities med school, because your recommendations will usually be from people known to adcoms and carry more weight to them.

Really though, I'm sure the benefit is so minuscule it would be rare to find a situation where your UG University played a part in your admission; seeing as GPA, MCAT, ECs and LORs are FAR more important than who or where you were taught Gen chem.

no some schools clearly have favorites...examples: duke likes picking students from its undergrad, and columbia favors ivy grads.

also some sdn'ers have commented on interviewer evaluation sheets where rigorous schools get more points.

edit: i agree that favoritism probably only matters when everything else is mostly even between applicants.. even then, any little advantage is still an advantage.

 

[lrkoehle]

Maybe when you learn how to spell tier correctly you will appreciate why adcoms give more respect to those who attended better undergraduate institutions.

I thought it was spelled tear...but more seriously, nice first post. Way to come out swinging. That is how you establish yourself when you are new on a board.

 

[LizzyM]

I thought it was spelled tear...but more seriously, nice first post. Way to come out swinging. That is how you establish yourself when you are new on a board.

Tier is a layer

Tear is the thing on your pillow when you don't get into a top tier school.

Prounounced differently (to rhyme with air) tear is what you do to the rejection letter from that school.

English is a crazy language.

 

[lrkoehle]

Tier is a layer

Tear is the thing on your pillow when you don't get into a top tier school.

Prounounced differently (to rhyme with air) tear is what you do to the rejection letter from that school.

English is a crazy language.

I was just trying to be a jerk to soontobeadoc. I did think about the tear (rhymes with air) version too. Then I thought about tare, like setting a scale to zero, which adds to the craziness.

 

[dw2158]

English is a crazy language.

indeed it is:

princton's

i have never heard of this school.

 

[longhorn09]

Tear is the thing on your pillow when you don't get into a top tier school.

Laugh out loud 😀

 

[CheerleaderMD]

Tier is a layer

Tear is the thing on your pillow when you don't get into a top tier school.

Prounounced differently (to rhyme with air) tear is what you do to the rejection letter from that school.

English is a crazy language.

 

[longhorn09]

Work on your MCAT to prove your potential.

 

[schizosquirrel]

The mother of a friend of mine is an admissions officer at one of the top-ranked UC schools. They consider undergraduate institution when making decisions...justified that (1) top schools have already self-selected top students (2) some top universities have relative grade deflation. I got a sense that they had even created a tier-list of schools (because I was told my undergrad was in the highest tier).

I don't think undergrad institution makes a huge difference. But consider that someone at a state school is competing in a curved class against less competitive classmates. Personally, I went to a small LAC where students VERY rarely receive 4.0's in a course. We select one or two graduating students for summa cum laude every year, most of which at the most have a 3.9 GPA. Being in the top 10% of our graduating class usually only requires a 3.7. Oppositely, MANY (i.e. multiple) of my high school friends who were less academically inclined graduated with 4.0s at my state school. Maybe this is partially related to personal basis (coming from a college with grade deflation), but It'd be short-sighted to not at least acknowledge this difference when looking at applicants.

 

[musicaldna]

I hope the US schools have a system for Canadian schools too...

Everyone knows how brutal University of Toronto is....

 

[jkurtz02]

More than one of my interviewers did mention that they give "boosts" to GPA of people coming from more rigorous schools. I know the undergrad school I went to had rigorous grading and when they thought things were getting easier they tried to change it. Recently they thought too many people were graduating cum laude so they changed the way classes were graded to ensure fewer people graduate cum laude. I also had 2 pre med classes in which my grade was curved down so they do have that happen in a class if most people are doing well.

 

[DrJosephKim]

I've blogged about this topic at length. As an MIT grad, I can tell you that most schools will expect your grades to correlate with your MCAT score. They're more likely to see students with a 3.4 GPA from MIT who also have exceptional MCAT scores. If your MCAT score is mediocre and your GPA is also mediocre, then it really doesn't matter where you went to school.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

actually, some science/math courses grade hw.

but you are missing the point. imagine you are sitting in a chem course where 90-100% of your grade is from curved tests.

scenario 1: the bulk of your class took AP/IB chem in high school, took SAT IIs in chemistry and did well, etc. they came out of school with a 3.8-4.0, top of their class, with a 2250-2400 SAT. these kids have been getting good grades for a while and want to continue that trend to get into grad schools/ land high profile jobs. you could say they are highly motivated/neurotic.

scenario 2: same chem class, but at a "3rd tier" party school. i'll let you fill in the blanks here in terms of student body academic credentials and their drive for top grad programs/jobs

lets assume both classes are graded on a curve. which class would likely be harder to get an A in?
yes i'm using extremes. im just trying to make a point.

Trust me, this is common sense for most people. But you're going to run yourself in circles trying to explain this absurdly obvious concept to a few stubborn SDNers.

 

[Lacheln]

I've blogged about this topic at length. As an MIT grad, I can tell you that most schools will expect your grades to correlate with your MCAT score. They're more likely to see students with a 3.4 GPA from MIT who also have exceptional MCAT scores. If your MCAT score is mediocre and your GPA is also mediocre, then it really doesn't matter where you went to school.

👍

 

[JJMrK]

When we see an excellent gpa from a "no-name" school we look more closely at the MCAT. If it is at the 50-60th percentile, we know that the grades just reflect the lower level of competition at that school. If it is >90th percentile we suspect that this is a big fish with a lot of smarts who for one reason or another ended up in a very small pond.

That's useful information. Thanks.

 

[witness23]

as far as homework and tests or whatever, at my school everything was usually z-scored separately since there were different TAs/recitations/versions of exams/labs

so if you were the top 10% of your class in exams but at very bottom in lab/hw grades, you still ended up with a B