How do DOs feel about OMM?

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mabish71DO said:
OMM seems to be the price to pay for not getting into your state school. I find it to be nothing but BS that does nothing but take away time from studying the important aspects of medicine.

Just remember that less than 5% of DOs use manipulation, so chances are you will never use it. If you like it good for you, but most of us are here to become medical doctors.

I speak as a 1st year medical student that wishes he would have gotten into his state MD school. I should have waited another year so I didn't have to deal with the cultish atmosphere of the OMM department.

Ahh well, I only have to deal with it for a couple years. I just felt like ranting on here.
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3 hours or so a week isn't detaching you from studying.
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passthekoolaid said:
It doesn't get any better second year....just gets crazier. OMM is a lot like scientology... sounds rather harmless at first, then next thing you know you're talking about space ships.

I gave up on even trying to pretend like I think there is any validity to the stuff we learn in lab. Now I just shoot holes in their theories by asking simple questions like, "so we return their legs to a neutral position passively because if they contract the muscle it will render the BS counterstrain technique we did useless? Ok, what happens when the patient contracts the muscle 2 seconds later to get off the table? Technique worthless?" Crickets.... that or the somewhat sane facilitators will say something like "yeah we don't use that one...just know it for boards." Then there is the elusive "Chapman's points." Question enough faculty and someone will admit they've never felt one and never expect to..."know it for boards." Inhaled rib? I saw a guy inhaling ribs at Sonny's the other night, does that count? Oh and cranial...well, you'll see....

The only down side is once they know you know they're full of it and don't want to play along anymore, they decide to grade your practicals a bit more "thoroughly".

DO school = academic penance.
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Its funny. I always want to say "what study says that your personal method for the OMM massage works better?" Has there been a controlled clinical trial for this. The answer is no of course because OMM is based on anecdotal evidence unlike ALL other areas of medicine.

Its time for DO schools to face reality and make OMM an optional study tract. I would rather take a case study course applying the basic sciences to actual real life cases than to waste my time studying BS.
 
mabish71DO said:
Its funny. I always want to say "what study says that your personal method for the OMM massage works better?" Has there been a controlled clinical trial for this. The answer is no of course because OMM is based on anecdotal evidence unlike ALL other areas of medicine.

Its time for DO schools to face reality and make OMM an optional study tract. I would rather take a case study course applying the basic sciences to actual real life cases than to waste my time studying BS.
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It's inaccurate to say that all of OMM is based on anecdotal evidence. Some aspects, yes. But spinal manipulation, for example, is very likely the most studied intervention for back pain, and I'm guessing that most manual-therapy-minded DOs are doing spinal manipulation as most of their OMM.
 
Interesting to hear harsh critiques of OMM from Medical Students. I'm gonna assume these are DO students. But I have to wonder...are they DO students because they had a desire to learn OMM or because they couldn't get into an Allopathic program? Which I believe could adversely effect how they feel about OMM.
 
CatchingUp said:
Interesting to hear harsh critiques of OMM from Medical Students. I'm gonna assume these are DO students. But I have to wonder...are they DO students because they had a desire to learn OMM or because they couldn't get into an Allopathic program? Which I believe could adversely effect how they feel about OMM.
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I'm still willing to learn. Right now I have no interest though. I've only experienced HVLA in the real world so that is what I'm most familiar with and willing to learn.
 
Most DO students are students who didn't get into their state schools. It doesn't mean anyting. There is nothing wrong with that as a few MCAT points don't mean anything regarding how good of a physician you will be. Very few people come to DO schools because of OMM. They come here because they want to be a physician.

I know I know the above statement has been beaten to death on here. I just wish DO schools and the AOA would stop living in their fantasy world. I will be training in an ACGME program so I don't have to deal with AOA Bull****.
 
mabish71DO said:
Most DO students are students who didn't get into their state schools. It doesn't mean anyting. There is nothing wrong with that as a few MCAT points don't mean anything regarding how good of a physician you will be. Very few people come to DO schools because of OMM. They come here because they want to be a physician.

I know I know the above statement has been beaten to death on here. I just wish DO schools and the AOA would stop living in their fantasy world. I will be training in an ACGME program so I don't have to deal with AOA Bull****.
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Are you writing off all OMM as bull, or just certain components?
 
I personally feel OMM is not any more beneficial than a massage. Sure, it makes patients feel better, but so does a nice back rub. Truth is DOs have to learn OMM in order to justify the existence of the DO degree. That's why we learn it, that's why we are tested over it. It has little real world benefit, and what it does is not in anyway distinctive from the practice of chiro's, massage therapists, and PT's. Its just part of our hurdle to practice medicine.
 
facetguy said:
Are you writing off all OMM as bull, or just certain components?
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No (some of it is, a lot of it is not) what I am saying is OMM should lie in the realm of Physical Therapy, chiropractors, ect. If I have an issue regarding "somatic dysfunction" I am going to a physical therapist to improve mobility...I am a going to become a medical doctor and I will not use it, so do not waste my time with it. Teach me medicine. Medicine today is evidence based. There is enough crammed into a medical education, stop trying to say (which the AOA does) DOs are better because of OMM. They are not. They may be (individually) better doctors than other MDs/DOs but its not because of OMM.
 
CatchingUp said:
Interesting to hear harsh critiques of OMM from Medical Students. I'm gonna assume these are DO students. But I have to wonder...are they DO students because they had a desire to learn OMM or because they couldn't get into an Allopathic program? Which I believe could adversely effect how they feel about OMM.
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I bought into the whole philosophy as a pre-med and only applied to DO programs. If I had known then, what I know now, I probably would have applied MD.
 
THis is a bit of a tangent, but thought I would toss it out there. What I wish would happen is that DO programs are just turned into MD programs and every school, both MD and old-DO, would have an optional certificate course in OMM.
 
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bioman2006 said:
With MD schools exploring OMM as an elective, and with the AOA possibly opening up DO residencies to MD grads, I fully agree with your point. In both cases, there would be no advantage to maintain a separate practicing and governing body of medicine.
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The AOA opening up residencies to MDs would seriously not be a good thing. I don't think they intend on doing that anytime soon either. I read two replies from last years president basically saying NO.

Edit: It looks like they are opening it up again. Ugh.
 
I don't know why people are so afraid of opening up AOA residencies to MDs. The programs would still be run by DOs, and they would still individually be able to choose who they interview. The most competitive specialties would still prefer DOs over MDs. There would be many years of reverse discrimination before a DO ophthalmology program finally allows an MD to participate in it. The benefits of opening AOA programs to MDs, however, is two-fold... 1) The unfilled primary care programs would get filled by FMGs and therefore would be able to maintain funding 2) MD residencies/elective rotations would be more open to accepting DOs now that the "double-standard" has been eliminated.
 
ceftazidime said:
I don't know why people are so afraid of opening up AOA residencies to MDs. The programs would still be run by DOs, and they would still individually be able to choose who they interview. The most competitive specialties would still prefer DOs over MDs. There would be many years of reverse discrimination before a DO ophthalmology program finally allows an MD to participate in it. The benefits of opening AOA programs to MDs, however, is two-fold... 1) The unfilled primary care programs would get filled by FMGs and therefore would be able to maintain funding 2) MD residencies/elective rotations would be more open to accepting DOs now that the "double-standard" has been eliminated.
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Here is what cracks me up though. The AOA says the degree change is too hard bc states have laws written that DOs and MDs are medical providers and are granted state licenses because of these titles. This means that if an MDO or MD, DO was created, there would be licensing issues. However, you're going to tell me that there wouldn't be licensing issues with an MD student who went to an allopathic school and was now trying to become BC from an Osteopathic board?? Obviously state boards recognize DOs who complete ACGME and are BC in ABMS fields, but if the reverse has never happened, how is this certification going to play out??? Also, will MD students have to take OMM courses before completing residencies? Granted, most programs don't use OMM at all, but all DO students have something like 200 hours in it, and if entering an AOA residency program, it could potentially be used at any time. How would the infamous 5 states that require an AOA approved internship work??? ETC?

Why wouldn't there just be a push to make existing AOA resiencies dual AOA/ACGME. Or put something in writing where accepting MD students guarantees some type of ACGME revenue which will be dedicated to opening X number of new dually accredited spots???

Here's the bottom line: even if the programs still had a mad DO bias and it took forever to accept an MD etc, it still screws with the odds statistically. A competitive program like AOA derm is now going to get 10x the applicants it normally gets, which is just going to create more pressure, less time reviewing individual applicants, and by a strict number game, increase the chances that the particular residency won't go to a DO. Also, prep for mass influx of Caribbean applicants trying to get into AOA programs, which is also going to screw with elective rotations, which also, again, bumps DO students. It just makes no sense not to hold onto these residencies, and luckily, based on the two posts several years ago made by Dr DiMarco, I believe the AOA feels the same way.

I've never been a degree change rattler, but if the AOA residencies are opened to MDs, then the separation and preservation wanted by the AOA is gone, and there is no reason not to change the degree to MD, DO.
 
bioman2006 said:
Yeah, it's been thrown around my school a lot lately. People are upset because AOA residencies may be the only way into a very competitive specialty. Then again, opening up the positions may expedite a merger between the two organizations, so who the hell knows.
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The president has an email on his page asking for opinions and talking about discussing it at the current meeting. I plan on sending a more refined version of the points i made below.
 
Blesbok said:
I have heard varying things from varying people and I am just wondering how the majority of DOs view OMM.
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I use OMT almost every day. It can be very helpful, but it does have its limitations. See lots of opportunities to use OMT on LBP, cranial and pelvic dysfunctions, and rib dysfunction.

We do need more evidence based research in this area. I have a lot of MD friends that ask me to work on them as well, even had one or two that wanted to look into learning how to use it.

The key is that you have to learn how to screen effectively so you don't end up treating every dysfunction you find and taking all day.
 
Aaron Earles said:
I use OMT almost every day. It can be very helpful, but it does have its limitations. See lots of opportunities to use OMT on LBP, cranial and pelvic dysfunctions, and rib dysfunction.

We do need more evidence based research in this area. I have a lot of MD friends that ask me to work on them as well, even had one or two that wanted to look into learning how to use it.

The key is that you have to learn how to screen effectively so you don't end up treating every dysfunction you find and taking all day.
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I propose a new "SDN forum Law." -- As the length of a thread about opinion on OMT increases, the probability that someone will mention a MD's interest in OMT approaches 1.
 
:love: We started myofascial release in lab yesterday and I feel great. Loving we've moved onto treatment. Favorite treatments of the day: Traction on the lumbar spine and the scissor maneuver... lifting from the tibial tuberosity, adducting that leg, and compressing and moving tissues paraspinally. Great results.
 
Im sure OMT is great for musculoskeletal issues, but I just can't see spending 7 hours a week, including study time, for 2 years, for something that we end up only using a small percentage of. That is my main gripe with OMT.
 
*** email sent to the AOA regarding the MDs in OGME programs. I encourage everyone else to do the same.
 
sylvanthus said:
Im sure OMT is great for musculoskeletal issues, but I just can't see spending 7 hours a week, including study time, for 2 years, for something that we end up only using a small percentage of. That is my main gripe with OMT.
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7 hours a week? What school do you go to? I have one 2-hour OMM lab per week. I look over the week's powerpoint for maybe 20 minutes prior to lab in order to prep for our weekly quiz.

My GF and I do OMM on eachother periodically throughout the week.

I wouldn't say that the class cuts into too much study time.
 
passthekoolaid said:
I propose a new "SDN forum Law." -- As the length of a thread about opinion on OMT increases, the probability that someone will mention a MD's interest in OMT approaches 1.
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:laugh: We'll need some empirical evidence before we put it in the textbooks...

But seriously, without the usual type of evidence, imprimatur of an MD is the only thing you have to lean on. A poor substitute since MD's have a solid subset of quacks in their ranks as well.
 
passthekoolaid said:
I propose a new "SDN forum Law." -- As the length of a thread about opinion on OMT increases, the probability that someone will mention a MD's interest in OMT approaches 1.
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For the record, I lol'd. Unfortunately, "Passthekoolaid's Law" just doesn't have the same omph as "Goodwin's Law." Do you have a more suitable name that we can use to attribute it?
 
JaggerPlate said:
Thanks.
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I have pride in the fact that I am going to become a physician and help people. I could give a crap less about the AOA or the "DO philosophy" The degree (DO/MD) does not define the doctor, it is the person. There are just more hoops and BS at DO schools that are annoying, that is why I would like to see the "DO profession" fizzle out.
 
mabish71DO said:
I have pride in the fact that I am going to become a physician and help people. I could give a crap less about the AOA or the "DO philosophy" The degree (DO/MD) does not define the doctor, it is the person. There are just more hoops and BS at DO schools that are annoying, that is why I would like to see the "DO profession" fizzle out.
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cool ...
 
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