How do people get by with calling washing dishes “research”?

[Latteandaprayer]

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I’ve heard (keyword) that some applicants call cleaning beakers and pouring plates “research,” and that 85% of matriculate having research doesn’t exclude these people. How do they get by despite blatantly lying?

This may not be the best forum for this question, lol.

 

[Oso]

Idk, i would call that lab assistant or tech or something and describe it as such.

I guess some people who misrepresent their lab work just lie well or get lucky and are not asked much about it.

But if you lie and get asked about it at interviews and can’t talk about it coherently (especially if your interviewer also does research in that field, which happened to me a few times), then ...

 

[Goro]

I’ve heard (keyword) that some applicants call cleaning beakers and pouring plates “research,” and that 85% of matriculate having research doesn’t exclude these people. How do they get by despite blatantly lying?

This may not be the best forum for this question, lol.

They don't.

 

[LizzyM]

They were working or volunteering in a research lab. They listed this activity in the experience section and labeled it research. They honestly described what they did in the lab. They answered questions about it during the interview. They were admitted despite having a relatively low level of research experience. What's the beef?

 

[Catalystik]

I’ve heard (keyword) that some applicants call cleaning beakers and pouring plates “research,” and that 85% of matriculate having research doesn’t exclude these people. How do they get by despite blatantly lying?

This may not be the best forum for this question, lol.

The available tag for AMCAS is Research/Lab, so technically, they aren't incorrect to use that designation. If they are honest about their role when they describe it in the narrative space, Adcomms know they didn't do research, but AMCAS statistics still include it in that category.

 

[Dwan]

I’ve heard (keyword) that some applicants call cleaning beakers and pouring plates “research,” and that 85% of matriculate having research doesn’t exclude these people. How do they get by despite blatantly lying?

This may not be the best forum for this question, lol.

Usually people wash dishes but also help with research in the lab. Or they start out washing dishes but eventually get into a research role.

 

[altblue]

Usually people wash dishes but also help with research in the lab. Or they start out washing dishes but eventually get into a research role.

Oftentimes they're a high schooler with well-connected parents who happen to know the PI 🙄

 

[Latteandaprayer]

They were working or volunteering in a research lab. They listed this activity in the experience section and labeled it research. They honestly described what they did in the lab. They answered questions about it during the interview. They were admitted despite having a relatively low level of research experience. What's the beef?

No beef! I think I just misunderstood what the research designation meant. So if someone just washed dishes and poured plates (a lab tech) and called it research, they would be right and it would count?

A specific example would be me. A year ago I started as a lab tech just washing and pouring plates, then I started a project about 5 months ago. Have I done a year of research, or 5 months? If the former, then does that mean just being in a lab counts as research?

I’m genuinely curious, I don’t have any problem with it being research if that’s true.

 

[Latteandaprayer]

Oftentimes they're a high schooler with well-connected parents who happen to know the PI 🙄

That shade. My friend has two doctor parents and they have friends in research so she’s claiming that she did 6 months of research even though all she did was watch the PI do experiments and ask her questions, essentially shadowing her. She did it for a week but the PI agreed to sign off on 6 months.

Power to her I guess for finding a way to check off a box with as little effort as possible.

 

[Tchotchke]

That shade. My friend has two doctor parents and they have friends in research so she’s claiming that she did 6 months of research even though all she did was watch the PI do experiments and ask her questions, essentially shadowing her. She did it for a week but the PI agreed to sign off on 6 months.

Power to her I guess for finding a way to check off a box with as little effort as possible.

great now when she fraudulently bills as a doc, you won't be surprised. That is, if she can BS her way through the application process. That's just unethical.

 

[LizzyM]

That shade. My friend has two doctor parents and they have friends in research so she’s claiming that she did 6 months of research even though all she did was watch the PI do experiments and ask her questions, essentially shadowing her. She did it for a week but the PI agreed to sign off on 6 months.

Power to her I guess for finding a way to check off a box with as little effort as possible.

It's all fun and games until a curious interviewer starts asking questions.

 

[deleted804295]

Wait what do you guys consider research? I helped out in a lab doing actual biological experiments (e.g. innoculating, take care of cultures from start to data collection at the end, data collection and entry) but I also helped out with washing dishes and I was in charge of the media for my half of the lab.

Is this not research? I was essentially doing the exact same work the graduate students were doing but I was being paid less.

If it's not I guess I'll have to go back to doing lab work next year. 😵

 

[Latteandaprayer]

Wait what do you guys consider research? I helped out in a lab doing actual biological experiments (e.g. innoculating, take care of cultures from start to data collection at the end, data collection and entry) but I also helped out with washing dishes and I was in charge of the media for my half of the lab.

Is this not research? I was essentially doing the exact same work the graduate students were doing but I was being paid less.

If it's not I guess I'll have to go back to doing lab work next year. 😵

LizzyM and Goro are here so their opinion trumps mine, but I think you did do research with the experiments, but not the washing dishes.

If it is all research that would be so cool since I do the exact same...

 

[altblue]

Wait what do you guys consider research? I helped out in a lab doing actual biological experiments (e.g. innoculating, take care of cultures from start to data collection at the end, data collection and entry) but I also helped out with washing dishes and I was in charge of the media for my half of the lab.

Is this not research? I was essentially doing the exact same work the graduate students were doing but I was being paid less.

If it's not I guess I'll have to go back to doing lab work next year. 😵

You're fine! The thread takes issue with people who do nothing but clean glassware. That experience isn't truly research, so it'd be disingenuous to claim one did research if all they did was clean glassware.

 

[deleted804295]

LizzyM and Goro are here so their opinion trumps mine, but I think you did do research with the experiments, but not the washing dishes.

If it is all research that would be so cool since I do the exact same...

Thanks for the clarification. Sometimes the lines of research are blurred because at my lab individuals were split between tasks so for several months all I did was data collection and then the next several months all I did was bacterial transfers.

If 'research' means carrying out experiments from start to finish then I wouldnt be able to list this under research because my lab was a large project that was split between several individuals and multiple PIs.

 

[deleted804295]

You're fine! The thread takes issue with people who do nothing but clean glassware. That experience isn't truly research, so it'd be disingenuous to claim one did research if all they did was clean glassware.

Thanks for the clarification. I was worried for a moment!

 

[Latteandaprayer]

Thanks for the clarification. Sometimes the lines of research are blurred because at my lab individuals were split between tasks so for several months all I did was data collection and then the next several months all I did was bacterial transfers.

If 'research' means carrying out experiments from start to finish then I wouldnt be able to list this under research because my lab was a large project that was split between several individuals and multiple PIs.

There are many exceptions, but most undergrads don’t really get their own projects/experiments from start to finish. SDN looks like everyone is running their own labs and getting published, but the reality is that most PIs will tell you exactly what to do, will hold your hand most of the way, and will interpret your data until they can trust you to do it alone, and even then they’ll have one eye on you.

That’s my experience and the experience of all my friends in research.

 

[altblue]

There are many exceptions, but most undergrads don’t really get their own projects/experiments from start to finish. SDN looks like everyone is running their own labs and getting published, but the reality is that most PIs will tell you exactly what to do, will hold your hand most of the way, and will interpret your data until they can trust you to do it alone, and even then they’ll have one eye on you.

That’s my experience and the experience of all my friends in research.

What are you talking about, unless you have eight 1st author Cell pubs you shouldn't even be applying

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What are you talking about, unless you have eight 1st author Cell pubs you shouldn't even be applying

If the only journal you can publish in is Cell, I hope you’re looking at DO schools.

 

[Goro]

Wait what do you guys consider research? I helped out in a lab doing actual biological experiments (e.g. innoculating, take care of cultures from start to data collection at the end, data collection and entry) but I also helped out with washing dishes and I was in charge of the media for my half of the lab.

Is this not research? I was essentially doing the exact same work the graduate students were doing but I was being paid less.

If it's not I guess I'll have to go back to doing lab work next year. 😵

The bolded sounds like research, but were you blindly following orders, or did you understand what you were doing and why? Were you testing a hypothesis?

. The whole idea is that you are learning something about the scientific process, even if it means studying orchids in New Guinea.

I have met someone who had four 1st author Cell papers. Can't remember his name now, or what he worked in. I also remember that the Nobel laureate Susumu Tonegawa's lab pumped out had six Cell papers in a single year!

 

[deleted804295]

The bolded sounds like research, but were you blindly following orders, or did you understand what you were doing and why? Were you testing a hypothesis?

. The whole idea is that you are learning something about the scientific process, even if it means studying orchids in New Guinea.

I have met someone who had four 1st author Cell papers. Can't remember his name now, or what he worked in. I also remember that the Nobel laureate Susumu Tonegawa's lab pumped out had six Cell papers in a single year!

I understood what I was doing. My PI would sit down with me at least once per week and would tell me the relevance of what I was doing in reference to the full project. He would send me supplemental readings and emails now and then explaining my work.

 

[deleted804295]

I don't get the idea of there being undergraduate students publishing in large magazines as first authors. Is this some sort of joke that I'm not getting?

How is that possible? Don't you need to be heading the lab to be first author?

 

[ChymeofPassion]

I don't get the idea of there being undergraduate students publishing in large magazines as first authors. Is this some sort of joke that I'm not getting?

How is that possible? Don't you need to be heading the lab to be first author?

Some PIs give first author to people who write the paper. Others to those who head the projects. The person who heads the lab is generally last author (the PI). If as an undergrad, you independently develop an idea and publish it, generally you'll be first author. It definitely requires a lot of time and initiative. You aren't going to get anything by working under a postdoc reading their plates. But it can be done.

 

[helpsomeoneout2018]

I don't get the idea of there being undergraduate students publishing in large magazines as first authors. Is this some sort of joke that I'm not getting?

How is that possible? Don't you need to be heading the lab to be first author?

thats last author. first author is usually heading the project

 

[deleted804295]

thats last author. first author is usually heading the project

Sorry for my ignorance. Now if this is the case why would undergraduate students have first author?

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Sorry for my ignorance. Now if this is the case why would undergraduate students have first author?

Because they head a project. You pitch an idea to your PI, complete it, publish.

 

[Latteandaprayer]

Some PIs give first author to people who write the paper. Others to those who head the projects. The person who heads the lab is generally last author (the PI). If as an undergrad, you independently develop an idea and publish it, generally you'll be first author. It definitely requires a lot of time and initiative. You aren't going to get anything by working under a postdoc reading their plates. But it can be done.

This is how it works, but you’re not expected to do that. It’s great and would boost your app, but adcoms don’t expect you to be able to come up with a novel idea, do an experiment that you head, and then get it all the way to publication (for wet labs. Clinical research I understand is slightly easier to get published in). That certainly doesn’t mean it’s impossible or that it doesn’t happen, it’s just not an expectation.

@Sunbodi what you’re doing is still research and the most important part is knowing what you’re doing and why. It’s ok if you never publish.

 

[skk_]

Sorry for my ignorance. Now if this is the case why would undergraduate students have first author?

I applied last year with two first author papers. The first grew out of a larger project where the work I was initially responsible for was able to be extended into its own fully fledged project that netted results substantive enough to warrant its own stand-alone publication after that initial larger project was more or less done. The second was my own project I pitched and developed after working at my lab for over a year.

Each represented thousand+ hours of effort over 2+ years on my end. If you're looking to get publications, first author especially, to "check a box" its almost definitely not worth the time investment since no school requires them, and you're likely going to need to find a PI who is supportive and actively gives you opportunities to pursue this as well.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

I

This is how it works, but you’re not expected to do that. It’s great and would boost your app, but adcoms don’t expect you to be able to come up with a novel idea, do an experiment that you head, and then get it all the way to publication (for wet labs. Clinical research I understand is slightly easier to get published in). That certainly doesn’t mean it’s impossible or that it doesn’t happen, it’s just not an expectation.

@Sunbodi what you’re doing is still research and the most important part is knowing what you’re doing and why. It’s ok if you never publish.

While it isn't expected, I'd argue that the majority of med school matriculants have applications with ECs (not just research) to a depth far surpassing what is expected.

There may not be a "first author", or even publication box to check, but I'd imagine these accomplishments may be fantastic examples of your scientific curiosity, work ethic, persistance, etc, competencies that med schools do select for in applicants.

But yeah, no one expects a publication.

 

[helpsomeoneout2018]

Sorry for my ignorance. Now if this is the case why would undergraduate students have first author?

yeah its insane iv never seen it. but who knows small lab right circumstance who knows

 

[Latteandaprayer]

I


While it isn't expected, I'd argue that the majority of med school matriculants have applications with ECs (not just research) to a depth far surpassing what is expected.

There may not be a "first author", or even publication box to check, but I'd imagine these accomplishments may be fantastic examples of your scientific curiosity, work ethic, persistance, etc, competencies that med schools do select for in applicants.

But yeah, no one expects a publication.

Yes they’d be great and I fully support whoever wants to strive for a publication to do so! I can only imagine how rewarding it is! But personally, and I’m assuming it’s true for many others, I’m not prepared to spend the next 2 years developing a hypothesis, an experiment, trying to figure out how to overcome problems, write a paper, and jumpy through the publication hoops. I’d much rather spend time volunteering.

 

[Lucca]

Places also value research differently. At Stanford around 45% of the matriculating class has a research publication and they ask for your pubs explicitly in the secondary. At any given state school that number is probably closer to 1-10% at most. I think someone posted somewhere that the prevalence of publications in the applicant pool is like 5%. First author is probably closer to 1 or less.