How do programs compare COMLEX scores to USMLE?

[Dr. Rafiki]

---

Members don't see this ad.

DO students are rapidly approaching being 1/3 of all medical students in the US. Other than perhaps neurosurgery, I'd love for you to drop the stats where you found that DO students only represented being 2% of all applicants to a specialty. That is nonsense. And if your argument is that having COMLEX only scores represents only 2% of applicants, again, show me the data. Because that sounds like the dumbest thing I've ever heard. In the class ahead of me, who just graduated, they had ~40 people take step out of >150 graduates. They only had ~50 go into FM/IM/Peds so simple math tells me that of the ~100 who successfully matched into a non-primary care specialty that 60% had COMLEX only scores. (assuming 100% of primary care bound people had COMLEX only, which is unlikely given the IM folks so that number is probably a lot higher who had COMLEX only and matched into a specialty).

Obviously my experience is N=1 DO school, but all of your arguments sound silly and uninformed, especially throwing around that 2% number.

I'm not arguing against all of your reasons for taking step, especially the idea of being in an MD world. I am arguing that if the reason that a PD won't look at COMLEX scores is that he or she does not understand or is unwilling to understand how to interpret the scores, then that PD is a dumb POS. All the years of scientific and medical education and your answer is: "wE cAnT sPeNd TiMe LoOkInG uP sCoReS oN gOoGlE"

 

[libertyyne]

DO students are rapidly approaching being 1/3 of all medical students in the US. Other than perhaps neurosurgery, I'd love for you to drop the stats where you found that DO students only represented being 2% of all applicants to a specialty. That is nonsense. And if your argument is that having COMLEX only scores represents only 2% of applicants, again, show me the data. Because that sounds like the dumbest thing I've ever heard. In the class ahead of me, who just graduated, they had ~40 people take step out of >150 graduates. They only had ~50 go into FM/IM/Peds so simple math tells me that of the ~100 who successfully matched into a non-primary care specialty that 60% had COMLEX only scores. (assuming 100% of primary care bound people had COMLEX only, which is unlikely given the IM folks so that number is probably a lot higher who had COMLEX only and matched into a specialty).

Obviously my experience is N=1 DO school, but all of your arguments sound silly and uninformed, especially throwing around that 2% number.

I'm not arguing against all of your reasons for taking step, especially the idea of being in an MD world. I am arguing that if the reason that a PD won't look at COMLEX scores is that he or she does not understand or is unwilling to understand how to interpret the scores, then that PD is a dumb POS. All the years of scientific and medical education and your answer is: "wE cAnT sPeNd TiMe LoOkInG uP sCoReS oN gOoGlE"

Unwilling to understand should be rephrased to does not care to understand. The PD is filling their class just fine, you can call them what ever names you want.

There were 44959 total applicants in the pool in 2020 match.
There were 6581 total DOs.
In 2018 there were 4092 DOs who took Step 1.
So 6581-4092=2489
2489/44959= ~5%

A majority of these people are probably applying to FM, so less than 5% of total applicants to programs in moderately competitive programs will likely be with comlex only.

This is imperfect since the timing of step 1 is not 100%, but gives a rough estimate.

If i became a PD and less than 5% of my applicant pool had comlex only, there is no reason i would spend extra time evaluating comlex. I would interview step 1 only, and if I had to invite comlex applicants i would choose the highest numbers on the list. Simple.

 

[asdf123g]

I actually partly agree with you on this as it does sense. But my own personal opinion is that if there were no comlex I still think there would be a higher attrition rate at some DO programs because a portion of the class would not be able to pass the USMLE (more so the students at new DO schools than established ones with higher GPAs and MCATs). Completely anecdotal I know but that is just my own theory

I'll meet you part way. I think the attrition at DO schools would probably be higher but not so much because of the USMLE but because imo it seems common practice for schools to weed out poorly performing students so they don't fail the boards and make the schools pass rate look bad. So I think the USMLE failure rate would be comparable to MD, but more DO students would be weeded out before it gets to taking the USMLE.

Sure DO discrimination is real but it has nothing to do with the reasons for prioritizing students with a USMLE score versus Comlex only. Also, I don't totally agree that PDs are just lazy (the ones I know sure are though.) The Comlex is constantly changing the average and only compares DOs to other DO students so as a generality it absolutely means they can't understand what the score means because it doesn't mean anything in the first place.

In a more exaggerated example though, it would be crazy to be okay with PD's from DO programs to they don't know how to interpret the USMLE though. How long did it take one to figure out what a generally good USMLE score was? A good COMLEX? It also be would be crazy for a PD from a DO program to say the USMLE only compares MD to MD and since I'm mostly familiar with DO, I'll only look at the COMLEX and not bother to google the USMLE.

USMLE is the gold standard.
A majority of applicants will take the test including FMGs and a large chunk of DO students.
If I am a PD why would have to bend over backwards to evaluate a non-gold standard test, especially when a majority of my applicants have step scores. If I have to , i will pick the highest number.

Not sure why this is soo confusing.

Why is a test that asks you how much ATP is generated in the 4th step of TCA the gold standard?
FWIW:

DO and MD licensing exams should be viewed equally, says AMA

As DO and MD residency programs come under the same umbrella for accreditation, their licensing exams should carry equal weight.

www.ama-assn.org

 

[libertyyne]

I'll meet you part way. I think the attrition at DO schools would probably be higher but not so much because of the USMLE but because imo it seems common practice for schools to weed out poorly performing students so they don't fail the boards and make the schools pass rate look bad. So I think the USMLE failure rate would be comparable to MD, but more DO students would be weeded out before it gets to taking the USMLE.


In a more exaggerated example though, it would be crazy to be okay with PD's from DO programs to they don't know how to interpret the USMLE though. How long did it take one to figure out what a generally good USMLE score was? A good COMLEX? It also be would be crazy for a PD from a DO program to say the USMLE only compares MD to MD and since I'm mostly familiar with DO, I'll only look at the COMLEX and not bother to google the USMLE.


Why is a test that asks you how much ATP is generated in the 4th step of TCA the gold standard?
FWIW:

DO and MD licensing exams should be viewed equally, says AMA

As DO and MD residency programs come under the same umbrella for accreditation, their licensing exams should carry equal weight.

www.ama-assn.org

1. DO PDs are free to not accept or understand step scores, but they would essentially leave out 80% of the total pool of applicants. I dont think many MDs applicants would loose sleep over that. I am unsure if MD students can even register for the COMLEX.
2. The test has more consistent distributions, larger number of test takers, consistent standard deviations, and is taken by a majority of applicants. It is the gold standard. Content wise, you should know how much ATP was generated in the 4th step of TCA as you should have an understanding of basic physio and biochem. You are telling me that a test that has Cranial OMM is more of a valid test content wise. lol.

 

[Neopolymath]

In a more exaggerated example though, it would be crazy to be okay with PD's from DO programs to they don't know how to interpret the USMLE though. How long did it take one to figure out what a generally good USMLE score was? A good COMLEX? It also be would be crazy for a PD from a DO program to say the USMLE only compares MD to MD and since I'm mostly familiar with DO, I'll only look at the COMLEX and not bother to google the USMLE.

My point is predicated on the PD doing what makes sense to sort applicants and compare them to each other. PDs get MD, DO, and FMG applicants no matter the program. They need to be compared on common ground. Of course it's ridiculous to say DO PDs are then sane to only look at Comlex because that would take out many, many superior US MD applicants from their prospective residency pool. The goal of the match is to grab the best residents the program can.

The bolded doesn't refute anything. Of course that would be crazy because like all programs DOs, MDs, and FMGs make up the applicant pool. They still need to use USMLE scores to compare apples to apples.

The Comlex only, and I cannot stress this enough, unreliably tells you how a DO did compared to other DOs in a situations in which we are comparing 3+ types of applicants. There is no reversal of the argument because we don't live in an alternative reality of DO school predominance and MD school minority. Programs don't say "hmmm let's compare the 3 DO students and then compare the 3 MD students and pick one from each basket."

I cannot even believe in the year 2020 we even need to have this explained again.

 

[Sardonix]

All I'm saying is when your knee-jerk reaction is "program directors don't know how to interpret scores", then my reaction is "are you f****** kidding me?"

Once I'm an attending, if I happen to be around academia / residencies, then I plan on telling every single PD that they're a f****** idiot straight to their face if they drop that line. At least be honest about the discrimination.

You say knee jerk reaction, I say what my friends told me through their experience applying for VSAS rotations, non-VSAS rotations, ERAS applications, and interviews.

But tomato tomata.

 

[Neopolymath]

FWIW:

DO and MD licensing exams should be viewed equally, says AMA

As DO and MD residency programs come under the same umbrella for accreditation, their licensing exams should carry equal weight.

www.ama-assn.org

There have been threads on this too. TLDR: the AMA has no jurisdiction or voice to make this statement so it really doesn't matter and honestly it's stupid based on the utility of the USMLE laid out in this thread and countless others. It's like ESPN saying that cats should be regarded as equal to dogs. So what?

This isn't DO hating. It's quite literally that the product is bad and useless and intellectually dishonest to defend.

 

[ciestar]

1. DO PDs are free to not accept or understand step scores, but they would essentially leave out 80% of the total pool of applicants. I dont think many MDs applicants would loose sleep over that. I am unsure if MD students can even register for the COMLEX.
2. The test has more consistent distributions, larger number of test takers, consistent standard deviations, and is taken by a majority of applicants. It is the gold standard. Content wise, you should know how much ATP was generated in the 4th step of TCA as you should have an understanding of basic physio and biochem. You are telling me that a test that has Cranial OMM is more of a valid test content wise. lol.

MD students cannot register for COMLEX.

 

[calivianya]

I'mm starting to feel like they only have the COMLEX after the merger because the NBOME likes $$$. Because they could have everyone do Step 1 with an additional OMM test for DOs.

but on the flip side, the COMLEX might be of benefit because it is numerical and the Step 1 is going P/F

I have a completely different feeling on this.

N = 1, but all of the USMLE-style style questions are far clearer and more obvious than the COMLEX-style questions I’ve done (taking the real ones next month), so I don’t see why people think more DO students would fail the USMLE. It’s a more reasonable, better written test. I think I’m more likely to score higher on USMLE anyway because I get what they’re asking.

What I’m instead worried about was if they did this, how many DOs would fail or do poorly on the OMM test. Honestly, I’m gonna cram OMM for two days after my step 1, but I also know everything else on the comlex is gonna keep me afloat if I horribly mess up the OMM stuff so I’m not too worried about it. Thinking about doing a just OMM test for licensing, where I have to know OMM as well as cardio or GI or any of that other stuff because it’s the only thing on the test, makes my blood run cold.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Obviously my experience is N=1 DO school, but all of your arguments sound silly and uninformed, especially throwing around that 2% number.

Someone looks silly and uninformed but I'm not sure it's who you think it is....

I'm not arguing against all of your reasons for taking step, especially the idea of being in an MD world. I am arguing that if the reason that a PD won't look at COMLEX scores is that he or she does not understand or is unwilling to understand how to interpret the scores, then that PD is a dumb POS. All the years of scientific and medical education and your answer is: "wE cAnT sPeNd TiMe LoOkInG uP sCoReS oN gOoGlE"

We know what you're arguing. Your argument is based on a false premise. PD's don't care to understand because they have absolutely no reason to care. If all DO applicants disappeared tomorrow their residency programs would fill just fine, albeit perhaps with a small increase in IMG's.

You can call them whatever names you want, but they don't need to understand COMLEX scores.

 

[Dr. Rafiki]

My step 1 percentile was identical to my level 1 percentile. Everyone at my school who I know that took both (maybe 20 people) all had very close percentiles. Step / level 2 was a different story.

But I forgot, percentiles don't mean anything to you guys

Of all the intricate statistical knowledge that is required to get a good step 1 score, and y'all are still arguing that "iTs ToO mUcH wOrK" to figure out a good level 1 score

Pretty typical for SDN, though.

 

[Sardonix]

My step 1 percentile was identical to my level 1 percentile. Everyone at my school who I know that took both (maybe 20 people) all had very close percentiles. Step / level 2 was a different story.

But I forgot, percentiles don't mean anything to you guys

Of all the intricate statistical knowledge that is required to get a good step 1 score, and y'all are still arguing that "iTs ToO mUcH wOrK" to figure out a good level 1 score

Pretty typical for SDN, though.

Lol, you're on SDN. Half the people here do nothing BUT obsess over numbers and acceptance/performance statistics.

You are taking this waaaaaay too personally.

 

[ritts]

I have a completely different feeling on this.

N = 1, but all of the USMLE-style style questions are far clearer and more obvious than the COMLEX-style questions I’ve done (taking the real ones next month), so I don’t see why people think more DO students would fail the USMLE. It’s a more reasonable, better written test. I think I’m more likely to score higher on USMLE anyway because I get what they’re asking.

What I’m instead worried about was if they did this, how many DOs would fail or do poorly on the OMM test. Honestly, I’m gonna cram OMM for two days after my step 1, but I also know everything else on the comlex is gonna keep me afloat if I horribly mess up the OMM stuff so I’m not too worried about it. Thinking about doing a just OMM test for licensing, where I have to know OMM as well as cardio or GI or any of that other stuff because it’s the only thing on the test, makes my blood run cold.

it's a helluva a lot easier to pass the COMLEX than Step 1. Ask the 50+ classmates of mine who were studying for Step 1 and decided not to take it after trying a practice test. Step 1 is 100% more straightforward, but it tests concrete knowledge that one can only obtain by studying. Idk how someone could pass Step 1 and not pass COMLEX. There's enough gimme questions on Comlex that anyone should pass it if they studied for it (or know how to study). Step 1 is allegedly mandatory at my school so I look forward to seeing how that goes

 

[Alkaidius]

I have a completely different feeling on this.

N = 1, but all of the USMLE-style style questions are far clearer and more obvious than the COMLEX-style questions I’ve done (taking the real ones next month), so I don’t see why people think more DO students would fail the USMLE. It’s a more reasonable, better written test. I think I’m more likely to score higher on USMLE anyway because I get what they’re asking.

What I’m instead worried about was if they did this, how many DOs would fail or do poorly on the OMM test. Honestly, I’m gonna cram OMM for two days after my step 1, but I also know everything else on the comlex is gonna keep me afloat if I horribly mess up the OMM stuff so I’m not too worried about it. Thinking about doing a just OMM test for licensing, where I have to know OMM as well as cardio or GI or any of that other stuff because it’s the only thing on the test, makes my blood run cold.

As something of a rigid test-taker the best I can describe it is...I’ve been taught to approach COMLEX clinically based questions with the mentality of “okay, so this stuff is fluff and I’m 80% sure it’s this”. USMLE questions have significantly less fluff and most things in the stem are relevant, so when I accidentally flip into clinic mindset, I occasionally fall for the stem’s secret 3rd/4th order pitfall. Going back to COMLEX based questions I start to overthink things... Adjusting between the two gives me mental whiplash. It’s only every now and then but it’s frustrating and adds up. I would MUCH rather not have developed the habit and have had the school prepare me for USMLE exclusively and then flounder around in Comquest for the OMM exam lol.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

But I forgot, percentiles don't mean anything to you guys

Percentiles between two completely different testing pools are meaningless.

My step 1 percentile was identical to my level 1 percentile. Everyone at my school who I know that took both (maybe 20 people) all had very close percentiles. Step / level 2 was a different story.

Cool. Your anecdotes are refuted by every single COMLEX to USMLE converter that's been created.

Of all the intricate statistical knowledge that is required to get a good step 1 score, and y'all are still arguing that "iTs ToO mUcH wOrK" to figure out a good level 1 score

No, we are saying it's worthless work so no one does it. There is no point.

 

[AlteredScale]

I know everyone gets riled up about COMLEX-only topics but please keep posts civil and professional.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I go to a school that is heavy on primary-care focus. We have heard that COMLEX is equal to USMLE after the merger. I get the idea of encouraging folks to choose primary fields, but it still sounds a little misleading.

I thought COMLEX is mainly acceptable to former AOA programs in terms of scaling the scores and comparing.

Is it better to still write the Step 1 if I'm unsure what type of programs I want to apply to?
On the flip side, if a DO student does Step 1 and fails it, wouldn't that look even worst than not taking it?

How does anyone still ask this? They don’t compare. They kind of know what a good comlex is but they still prefer even average USMLE over it. Comlex is a cutoff exam for PDs. Yeah they may require a 500, but they still prefer USMLE even if it’s not good. Just look at Frieda, there are all kinds of ‘we require a 200 USMLE and a 500+ comlex.’ They don’t convert they don’t compare. If you want even a semi-level playing field, you got to take USMLE,

 

[Lexdiamondz]

My step 1 percentile was identical to my level 1 percentile. Everyone at my school who I know that took both (maybe 20 people) all had very close percentiles. Step / level 2 was a different story.

But I forgot, percentiles don't mean anything to you guys

Of all the intricate statistical knowledge that is required to get a good step 1 score, and y'all are still arguing that "iTs ToO mUcH wOrK" to figure out a good level 1 score

Pretty typical for SDN, though.

You're tilting at a windmill here dude. Nobody gives a **** about COMLEX and there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons why, whether you want to accept those reasons or not doesn't change reality.

 

[12jas]

I am arguing that if the reason that a PD won't look at COMLEX scores is that he or she does not understand or is unwilling to understand how to interpret the scores, then that PD is a dumb POS. All the years of scientific and medical education and your answer is: "wE cAnT sPeNd TiMe LoOkInG uP sCoReS oN gOoGlE"

My point is predicated on the PD doing what makes sense to sort applicants and compare them to each other. PDs get MD, DO, and FMG applicants no matter the program. They need to be compared on common ground. Of course it's ridiculous to say DO PDs are then sane to only look at Comlex because that would take out many, many superior US MD applicants from their prospective residency pool. The goal of the match is to grab the best residents the program can.

The bolded doesn't refute anything. Of course that would be crazy because like all programs DOs, MDs, and FMGs make up the applicant pool. They still need to use USMLE scores to compare apples to apples.

The Comlex only, and I cannot stress this enough, unreliably tells you how a DO did compared to other DOs in a situations in which we are comparing 3+ types of applicants. There is no reversal of the argument because we don't live in an alternative reality of DO school predominance and MD school minority. Programs don't say "hmmm let's compare the 3 DO students and then compare the 3 MD students and pick one from each basket."

I cannot even believe in the year 2020 we even need to have this explained again.

This. Everyone beat me to the punch but it is not that PD's can't understand comlex scores its that is it impossible to compare a comlex score to a step score because they are different cohorts. So the PD's that say they are don't know how to interpret comlex scores are correct because NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO COMPARE A COMLEX SCORE TO A STEP SCORE. Saying it can be done with a simple google search shows a serious lack of understanding. It cannot be done with the current data available. For fun I will counter your anecdote with my anecdote. My comlex score is 30 percentile higher than my step (and my step wasn't bad either). Many of my classmates are the same way. Oh and my school requires every student to take USLME so we actually have data. Our Step average is a much lower percentile than our comlex average.

 

[bigindian4891]

Some of these people arguing that a COMLEX-only applicant is great are also going to be on the NBOME committee saying PE is the most important licensing exam.

 

[Sardonix]

This. Everyone beat me to the punch but it is not that PD's can't understand comlex scores its that is it impossible to compare a comlex score to a step score because they are different cohorts. So the PD's that say they are don't know how to interpret comlex scores are correct because NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO COMPARE A COMLEX SCORE TO A STEP SCORE. Saying it can be done with a simple google search shows a serious lack of understanding. It cannot be done with the current data available. For fun I will counter your anecdote with my anecdote. My comlex score is 30 percentile higher than my step (and my step wasn't bad either). Many of my classmates are the same way. Oh and my school requires every student to take USLME so we actually have data. Our Step average is a much lower percentile than our comlex average.

Let's not forget the fact that the NBOME's "Score Percentile Converter" looks like a bare bones, ratchet app that someone designed on Windows 95 and never updated... kinda like seeing a half-functional neon-sign in an alleyway that reads "Pharmacist" but really it's that one guy who sells drugs out of his van.

If it's such a vital, valuable conversion tool that all PDs should depend on to indicate a student's performance on both exams, why isn't it polished and marketed like everything else the NBOME does with its money? Why doesn't it provide more information to make a better analysis?

My guess is because it's pretty useless and they know nobody trusts it.

 

[12jas]

Let's not forget the fact that the NBOME's "Score Percentile Converter" looks like a bare bones, ratchet app that someone designed on Windows 95 and never updated... kinda like seeing a half-functional neon-sign in an alleyway that reads "Pharmacist" but really it's that one guy who sells drugs out of his van.

If it's such a vital, valuable conversion tool that all PDs should depend on to indicate a student's performance on both exams, why isn't it polished and marketed like everything else the NBOME does with its money? Why doesn't it provide more information to make a better analysis?

My guess is because it's pretty useless and they know nobody trusts it.

And for fun enter your score and then change the year and watch how the percentiles jump around year to year and they expect PD's to stay on top of their idiotic variability.

 

[Sardonix]

And for fun enter your score and then change the year and watch how the percentiles jump around year to year and they expect PD's to stay on top of their idiotic variability.

Didn't you hear? Much like SDNers eagerly analyze match data each March, PDs sleep restlessly the night before the NBOME (at some point I guess?) updates the percentages for that year. It's quite an exciting time.

/s

 

[genessis42]

It is a tough call to make because a lot of former AOA programs will probably start taking more MDs who only do Step 1.

My main conclusion from these posts is that anything outside of FM or IM would need USMLE. But I think even academic IM would need Step.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

It is a tough call to make because a lot of former AOA programs will probably start taking more MDs who only do Step 1.

My main conclusion from these posts is that anything outside of FM or IM would need USMLE. But I think even academic IM would need Step.

You would be correct for the most part.

As to the first statement this is already happening in the moderately competitive specialties. Programs are still taking DO's but there are more than one program that explicitly state on their website now that applicants must have both scores to be considered. I'm talking former AOA.

 

[ERK123]

It is a tough call to make because a lot of former AOA programs will probably start taking more MDs who only do Step 1.

My main conclusion from these posts is that anything outside of FM or IM would need USMLE. But I think even academic IM would need Step.

There are a lot of psych programs that are cool with just COMLEX too.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

There are a lot of psych programs that are cool with just COMLEX too.

They still prefer step. Don’t kid yourself.

 

[deleted831695]

So if I'm doing FM, I'll be fine with just COMLEX (I'll be broadly applying at the time regardless)? Or should I just take Step 1 regardless? Do I not need to report Step 1 if the score isn't great?

 

[Chibucks15]

So if I'm doing FM, I'll be fine with just COMLEX (I'll be broadly applying at the time regardless)? Or should I just take Step 1 regardless? Do I not need to report Step 1 if the score isn't great?

Depending where you want to go practice. It won't hurt you to not take Step but it can help you if you change your mind

 

[deleted831695]

Depending where you want to go practice. It won't hurt you to not take Step but it can help you if you change your mind

Ideally, I'm trying to be in or as close to the Cleveland area, but going to apply as many programs possible (60+), including many in my home state of Michigan for obvious reasons.

 

[Chibucks15]

Ideally, I'm trying to be in or as close to the Cleveland area, but going to apply as many programs possible (60+), including many in my home state/school of Michigan for obvious reasons.

If you 100% set on FM then you're good with COMLEX in that area. It's the center of the DO world in the US

 

[deleted831695]

If you 100% set on FM then you're good with COMLEX in that area. It's the center of the DO world in the US

Are there regions (coasts?) where COMLEX isn't sufficient for FM or is it more just program-specific?

 

[Chibucks15]

Are there regions (coasts?) where COMLEX isn't sufficient for FM or is it more just program-specific?

Not that I'm aware of, but on the coasts you're competing with many more MDs, so Step will be more helpful than in the middle of the country, especially MI and OH

 

[Mad Jack]

"We don't even know how to interpret COMLEX really. We just make sure you didn't fail it or score far lower than everyone else and then look at your Step scores." -- Multiple EM docs to my friend who applied and matched EM this year. This came from both DO and MD docs.

Basically the same at a lot of psych programs. They have difficulty determining what is a good score and might give someone with a 440 COMLEX a shot that they would never give a person with a 220 USMLE. Some programs do the legwork to figure out the percentile for a given year, but most just kind of eyeball it and often they're quite a ways off. I feel like having a stellar COMLEX and a mediocre USMLE cost me some interviews I might have otherwise scored if I hadn't reported my USMLE.

 

[harrislakers123]

There should be one exam for all. End of story. Taking USMLE maximizes opportunities for everyone. 20-25% of PDs don’t consider COMLEX

 

[hallowmann]

Are there regions (coasts?) where COMLEX isn't sufficient for FM or is it more just program-specific?

It really just depends on the programs. There are some programs on the coasts that make a big deal about USMLE, but even there, most do not. If your goal is simply to match FM in or around Cleveland, you will easily with COMLEX only provided no big red flags.

 

[deleted1049832]

So how easy is it to just pass COMLEX Level 1 and/or what's the conversion formula to Step 1?

 

[Chibucks15]

So how easy is it to just pass COMLEX Level 1 and/or what's the conversion formula to Step 1?

you still gotta study pretty comprehensively...idk why you wanna coast when the risk of failing can ruin a career

 

[deleted1049832]

you still gotta study pretty comprehensively...idk why you wanna coast when the risk of failing can ruin a career

I have failures already. FM is my only option. Hoping that passing can be achieved in 6 weeks of studying then.

 

[Chibucks15]

Hoping that can be achieved in 6 weeks then.

It for sure can if you get off SDN and study. Nothing is stopping you from doing that...

 

[deleted831695]

It really just depends on the programs. There are some programs on the coasts that make a big deal about USMLE, but even there, most do not. If your goal is simply to match FM in or around Cleveland, you will easily with COMLEX only provided no big red flags.

Are there usually minimum cutoffs, or is it generally just pass with whatever score on the first or second attempt?

 

[Sardonix]

Are there usually minimum cutoffs, or is it generally just pass with whatever score on the first or second attempt?

Obviously the higher the score, the better.

Classmate of mine was SUPER self-deprecating and always negative talked herself. She didn't pass the school's mandatory practice COMSAE the first time so she had to take the BS "intensive course" that the school required about 25% of our class to take. I believe she ended up with a score in the high 400s.

Proceeded to improve a bit on her Level 2, did not take any USMLE. She got offered like 15 interviews in the midwest and matched at her top three.

 

[zNoodlez]

Obviously the higher the score, the better.

Classmate of mine was SUPER self-deprecating and always negative talked herself. She didn't pass the school's mandatory practice COMSAE the first time so she had to take the BS "intensive course" that the school required about 25% of our class to take. I believe she ended up with a score in the high 400s.

Proceeded to improve a bit on her Level 2, did not take any USMLE. She got offered like 15 interviews in the midwest and matched at her top three.

Wow, what was her top choice specialty and how long ago was this?

 

[sunshinefl]

Wow, what was her top choice specialty and how long ago was this?

They are discussing FM and it’s current.

 

[asdf123g]

My point is predicated on the PD doing what makes sense to sort applicants and compare them to each other. PDs get MD, DO, and FMG applicants no matter the program. They need to be compared on common ground. Of course it's ridiculous to say DO PDs are then sane to only look at Comlex because that would take out many, many superior US MD applicants from their prospective residency pool. The goal of the match is to grab the best residents the program can.

The bolded doesn't refute anything. Of course that would be crazy because like all programs DOs, MDs, and FMGs make up the applicant pool. They still need to use USMLE scores to compare apples to apples.

The Comlex only, and I cannot stress this enough, unreliably tells you how a DO did compared to other DOs in a situations in which we are comparing 3+ types of applicants. There is no reversal of the argument because we don't live in an alternative reality of DO school predominance and MD school minority. Programs don't say "hmmm let's compare the 3 DO students and then compare the 3 MD students and pick one from each basket."

I cannot even believe in the year 2020 we even need to have this explained again.

A good number of DOs take the USMLE in response to PDs discriminating against them and because of that, the number of COMLEX only DOs has shrunk, making it easier to excuse requiring the USMLE. It morally does not justify this behavior. Its ridiculous that someone with a +700 COMLEX would be screened because they didn't take the USMLE. Its not difficult for a PD to google or to ask a DO to know that anything +600 is a reasonably strong applicant, certainly +700.

There have been threads on this too. TLDR: the AMA has no jurisdiction or voice to make this statement so it really doesn't matter and honestly it's stupid based on the utility of the USMLE laid out in this thread and countless others. It's like ESPN saying that cats should be regarded as equal to dogs. So what?

This isn't DO hating. It's quite literally that the product is bad and useless and intellectually dishonest to defend.

It doesn't change the reality that DOs are discriminated against and its morally wrong.

Someone looks silly and uninformed but I'm not sure it's who you think it is....


We know what you're arguing. Your argument is based on a false premise. PD's don't care to understand because they have absolutely no reason to care. If all DO applicants disappeared tomorrow their residency programs would fill just fine, albeit perhaps with a small increase in IMG's.

You can call them whatever names you want, but they don't need to understand COMLEX scores.

Sounds like PDs really hate doing their job.

it's a helluva a lot easier to pass the COMLEX than Step 1. Ask the 50+ classmates of mine who were studying for Step 1 and decided not to take it after trying a practice test. Step 1 is 100% more straightforward, but it tests concrete knowledge that one can only obtain by studying. Idk how someone could pass Step 1 and not pass COMLEX. There's enough gimme questions on Comlex that anyone should pass it if they studied for it (or know how to study). Step 1 is allegedly mandatory at my school so I look forward to seeing how that goes

Isn't the COMLEX (and USMLE) passing predicated on how others do? So if its a really easy test, you need to get a lot more questions correct than on a really difficult version of the test because its relative to the performance of others.

Again, different curricula prepare students for different tests. MDs on a DO curricula would do poorly on the USMLE. Not to mention the hundred of additional hours of OMM studying. Also, the USMLE (and I guess COMLEX too) was never intended to be used as a filter and there's plenty of studies showing how little importance it really is (tbf, theres some studies saying it does matter). Its not a clear cut issue.

You go to RVU?

Percentiles between two completely different testing pools are meaningless.


Cool. Your anecdotes are refuted by every single COMLEX to USMLE converter that's been created.


No, we are saying it's worthless work so no one does it. There is no point.

Those converters are comically inaccurate. There were several studies done on this. As I said above, I think we can reasonably assume someone with say a +700 is a good applicant and comparable to an MD with a good score. Its not a 1:1 comparison, but its not a crazy assumption.

This. Everyone beat me to the punch but it is not that PD's can't understand comlex scores its that is it impossible to compare a comlex score to a step score because they are different cohorts. So the PD's that say they are don't know how to interpret comlex scores are correct because NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO COMPARE A COMLEX SCORE TO A STEP SCORE. Saying it can be done with a simple google search shows a serious lack of understanding. It cannot be done with the current data available. For fun I will counter your anecdote with my anecdote. My comlex score is 30 percentile higher than my step (and my step wasn't bad either). Many of my classmates are the same way. Oh and my school requires every student to take USLME so we actually have data. Our Step average is a much lower percentile than our comlex average.

Same answer as above.
If you goto RVU, I had heard there were curricula changes or something resulting in a large drop in USMLE scores and a lot of failures. Either way, different curricula and hundreds of hours of required OMM training makes a big difference, its not so much a difference in a persons level of intelligence.

 

[Ho0v-man]

A good number of DOs take the USMLE in response to PDs discriminating against them and because of that, the number of COMLEX only DOs has shrunk, making it easier to excuse requiring the USMLE. It morally does not justify this behavior. Its ridiculous that someone with a +700 COMLEX would be screened because they didn't take the USMLE. Its not difficult for a PD to google or to ask a DO to know that anything +600 is a reasonably strong applicant, certainly +700.


It doesn't change the reality that DOs are discriminated against and its morally wrong.

Sounds like PDs really hate doing their job.


Isn't the COMLEX (and USMLE) passing predicated on how others do? So if its a really easy test, you need to get a lot more questions correct than on a really difficult version of the test because its relative to the performance of others.

Again, different curricula prepare students for different tests. MDs on a DO curricula would do poorly on the USMLE. Not to mention the hundred of additional hours of OMM studying. Also, the USMLE (and I guess COMLEX too) was never intended to be used as a filter and there's plenty of studies showing how little importance it really is (tbf, theres some studies saying it does matter). Its not a clear cut issue.

You go to RVU?


Those converters are comically inaccurate. There were several studies done on this. As I said above, I think we can reasonably assume someone with say a +700 is a good applicant and comparable to an MD with a good score. Its not a 1:1 comparison, but its not a crazy assumption.


Same answer as above.
If you goto RVU, I had heard there were curricula changes or something resulting in a large drop in USMLE scores and a lot of failures. Either way, different curricula and hundreds of hours of required OMM training makes a big difference, its not so much a difference in a persons level of intelligence.

Dude, how do you not get this? It’s not hard to google comlex percentiles. It’s easy. But it’s even easier to not. That’s the point. They don’t care about comlex scores because they don’t have to care about them. It’s such a small portion of the overall applicant pool that if the want to ignore comlex only applicants, then they can. This argument is like someone being mad about not getting a med school interview despite not taking the mcat. “But I got a 99th percentile GRE and that should be enough!” Nobody cares! This isn’t a matter of discrimination. It’s a matter of of not doing what’s being asked of you. If you’re applying to a program that requires a step score and only have comlex then you deserve this “discrimination.” You’re basically telling that program that you’re already expecting special treatment and you haven’t even interviewed yet. Dang right your app is going in the trash.

This is how the real world works. Do what’s expected of you or your employer will find someone who will. It’s that simple.

 

[ritts]

A good number of DOs take the USMLE in response to PDs discriminating against them and because of that, the number of COMLEX only DOs has shrunk, making it easier to excuse requiring the USMLE. It morally does not justify this behavior. Its ridiculous that someone with a +700 COMLEX would be screened because they didn't take the USMLE. Its not difficult for a PD to google or to ask a DO to know that anything +600 is a reasonably strong applicant, certainly +700.


It doesn't change the reality that DOs are discriminated against and its morally wrong.

Sounds like PDs really hate doing their job.


Isn't the COMLEX (and USMLE) passing predicated on how others do? So if its a really easy test, you need to get a lot more questions correct than on a really difficult version of the test because its relative to the performance of others.

Again, different curricula prepare students for different tests. MDs on a DO curricula would do poorly on the USMLE. Not to mention the hundred of additional hours of OMM studying. Also, the USMLE (and I guess COMLEX too) was never intended to be used as a filter and there's plenty of studies showing how little importance it really is (tbf, theres some studies saying it does matter). Its not a clear cut issue.

You go to RVU?


Those converters are comically inaccurate. There were several studies done on this. As I said above, I think we can reasonably assume someone with say a +700 is a good applicant and comparable to an MD with a good score. Its not a 1:1 comparison, but its not a crazy assumption.


Same answer as above.
If you goto RVU, I had heard there were curricula changes or something resulting in a large drop in USMLE scores and a lot of failures. Either way, different curricula and hundreds of hours of required OMM training makes a big difference, its not so much a difference in a persons level of intelligence.

Why would someone who gets a 700+ not take USMLE to maximize their chances and put themselves on a level playing field? A 700+ just means they did better than 90% of DOs. How do they fare against MD students (the other 2/3 of the total population)? The only way to know is by taking the USMLE. It's simple statistics, the COMLEX cohort =/= USMLE cohort. DOs are "discriminated against" because the test horribly varies from year to year, cannot be compared to our MD counterparts, and our clinical rotations are subpar.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Those converters are comically inaccurate.

That's the entire point.

As I said above, I think we can reasonably assume someone with say a +700 is a good applicant and comparable to an MD with a good score.

No we can't assume that. Because there is nothing to compare the two.

Sounds like PDs really hate doing their job.

Nah, it's actually really easy when there isn't a Step score, they just ignore them. Their applicant pool basically stays the same, and everyone has the same metrics to compare to.

 

[asdf123g]

Whether a DO takes the USMLE or not, DOs still have to score higher to be considered equivalent to a lower scoring MD. There is discrimination. Its not just because they 'cant' compare the the USMLE and COMLEX, (which again has limited credibility that they're even an accurate metric, in fact, quite the opposite)

 

[asdf123g]

Are you getting tired of moving the goalposts in all this summer heat?

I did not, you said take the USMLE to show you are the same as an MD. If that were true, you wouldn't have to score higher than the MD to be considered equivalent.