How do you apply for academic positions?

[reca]

I'm fellowship trained and am considering going into academia. How exactly do you go about finding/applying for academic positions?

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[tr]

I'm fellowship trained and am considering going into academia. How exactly do you go about finding/applying for academic positions?

Are you looking for a clinical job? (Not research?)

If so, I think it's most common to slide into a job at your same fellowship institution.

If you want to move elsewhere, you need to work your contacts. Reach out to people you know at the target institution and ask for an introduction.

Otherwise if you want to go to an institution where you have no connections, you can cold-email your CV to the chair or director of your subspecialty area, but this may be a less fruitful approach.

 

[Celexa]

Are you looking for a clinical job? (Not research?)

If so, I think it's most common to slide into a job at your same fellowship institution.

If you want to move elsewhere, you need to work your contacts. Reach out to people you know at the target institution and ask for an introduction.

Otherwise if you want to go to an institution where you have no connections, you can cold-email your CV to the chair or director of your subspecialty area, but this may be a less fruitful approach.

Academic depts are so desperate for people emailing the chair or division chief is an extremely high yield way to do it. In fact, I wouldn't bother doing anything else.

Email and attaching an academically formatted cv should do it to start a conversation. If the chair doesn't want to do the first round of talks they'll just forward to whoever does.

The jobs may or may not be posted. Or they may get posted in the most technical sense so the candidate can put in an app through the system after the decision has been made, so looking at job websites is relatively low yield compared to figuring out where you want to live and reaching out. If you have connections that definitely can be an asset but it isn't required.

I know of a dept where there was a problem with the online application system.... The relevant people weren't even getting the notifications about anyone who applied. DO NOT rely on submitting an application through websites. Send emails.

 

[splik]

See my post on clinician educator jobs: Psychiatry Clinician Educator Jobs FAQs

 

[Stagg737]

CareerMD | Search for Physician, Resident, & Fellow employment opportunities | CareerMD.com

www.careermd.com

https://jobs.psychiatry.org/jobs/

The latter seems to be more specific to academic positions, but they've got over 250 listed.

 

[yoloswagpoop42069]

1. Don't do academia

2. Apply, they take anyone, unless its like Harvard or Yale, and even then they might take anyone

3. Don't do it

 

[Merovinge]

Nothing wrong with cold-calling. I did this at UPMC and had the most inferiority complex possible talking to the assistant chair of UPMC when my wife was considering a job in the area (I was literally trembling anticipating the call and I am a very non-anxious, self-confident person). I was shocked they would want to talk to me further about a job. I have subsequently realized the scope of their operations and need for warm bodies, but still, many top tier places are absolutely interested in you if you are willing to accept their poor pay.

 

[clausewitz2]

Nothing wrong with cold-calling. I did this at UPMC and had the most inferiority complex possible talking to the assistant chair of UPMC when my wife was considering a job in the area (I was literally trembling anticipating the call and I am a very non-anxious, self-confident person). I was shocked they would want to talk to me further about a job. I have subsequently realized the scope of their operations and need for warm bodies, but still, many top tier places are absolutely interested in you if you are willing to accept their poor pay.

To be fair, if you talked to who I think you talked to, he does talk extremely fast and is a bit tangential at all times.

 

[comp1]

I'm pretty sure cold emailing the chair will work at most places. Most universities are going to have job postings on their websites, but they are probably out of date. These are generally...not competitive, not that many jobs are. Everybody is desperate for someone with a pulse and a license.

 

[dl2dp2]

I'm fellowship trained and am considering going into academia. How exactly do you go about finding/applying for academic positions?

Echoing some above, if you are only interested in a clinical job, academic work is generally suboptimal for a variety of reasons.

Academia is reasonable if you are interested in education or research, and jobs are secured through word of mouth, but you'll still need to apply for an open position. This can still be competitive despite low salary. Recently I saw on linkedin that was a big-name academic group hiring a staff physician for research at 180k. There were 25 applicants. I suppose it's a line on your cv that could be used later for better jobs.

 

[Celexa]

Echoing some above, if you are only interested in a clinical job, academic work is generally suboptimal for a variety of reasons.

Academia is reasonable if you are interested in education or research, and jobs are secured through word of mouth, but you'll still need to apply for an open position. This can still be competitive despite low salary. Recently I saw on linkedin that was a big-name academic group hiring a staff physician for research at 180k. There were 25 applicants. I suppose it's a line on your cv that could be used later for better jobs.

This is so far removed from my experience I am having a hard time even registering it. No one looks for academic positions on linked in. Every academic dept I know, including the big names, are desperate to hire. They do pay **** but there can be other compensating factors (although not always). But the **** pay is why it isn't actually competitive.

A specific niche job might not be available (for example, in CL, if your heart is set on txp a dept might not be looking for a new txp person, and only might have general CL or you might need to do some outpatient) but overall everyone is begging people to work for them.

 

[reca]

Thanks for the tips. As an update, received responses from 3 places. 2 said they are not hiring at the moment. The third said they're not really looking for part-time psychiatrists but that they would pass on the interest to the chair to see what options there might be (I sent the email to Vice something of Faculty Affairs).

 

[Celexa]

Thanks for the tips. As an update, received responses from 3 places. 2 said they are not hiring at the moment. The third said they're not really looking for part-time psychiatrists but that they would pass on the interest to the chair to see what options there might be (I sent the email to Vice something of Faculty Affairs).

One thing that can be a little different in academia is that the hiring does tend to eb and flow around the academic year, with most people leaving and starting in and around July. Have still seen people start off cycle but if there's nothing right now it doesn't necessarily mean there won't be anything in the near-ish future. You might need to catch the next academic year's hiring cycle.

 

[dl2dp2]

This is so far removed from my experience I am having a hard time even registering it. No one looks for academic positions on linked in. Every academic dept I know, including the big names, are desperate to hire. They do pay **** but there can be other compensating factors (although not always). But the **** pay is why it isn't actually competitive.

A specific niche job might not be available (for example, in CL, if your heart is set on txp a dept might not be looking for a new txp person, and only might have general CL or you might need to do some outpatient) but overall everyone is begging people to work for them.

It *can* be competitive. Usually, it's not, you are right, especially if it's a run-of-the-mill academic satellite office.

Thanks for the tips. As an update, received responses from 3 places. 2 said they are not hiring at the moment. The third said they're not really looking for part-time psychiatrists but that they would pass on the interest to the chair to see what options there might be (I sent the email to Vice something of Faculty Affairs).

What I find is that given many academic departments lose money, they aren't in a rush to fill positions. So things tend to drag.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

It *can* be competitive. Usually, it's not, you are right, especially if it's a run-of-the-mill academic satellite office.



What I find is that given many academic departments lose money, they aren't in a rush to fill positions. So things tend to drag.

Yeah there's so many layers to move through just to get FTEs approved by the hospital/university to make a position that it can take a while (so I hear) unless they're actively recruiting.

Thanks for the tips. As an update, received responses from 3 places. 2 said they are not hiring at the moment. The third said they're not really looking for part-time psychiatrists but that they would pass on the interest to the chair to see what options there might be (I sent the email to Vice something of Faculty Affairs).

Yes, most academic places aren't super interested in "part time" positions. They want people they can put in their call schedule (which is notoriously one of the parts of academic departments people hate) and they can get to be on committees/teach/whatever unpaid...which generally part time people are not a big fan of.

 

[comp1]

I missed the "part time" part. Yeah, that's not what academic hospitals or systems are looking for. They're looking for a sort of religious involvement wherein you donate a significant portion of your services for the greater betterment of humanity. That perspective doesn't mesh well with "part time." Quite the opposite, most academic hospitals are looking for full time+ and if you happen to moonlight, they would also like a cut of that.

 

[splik]

1. Don't do academia

2. Apply, they take anyone, unless its like Harvard or Yale, and even then they might take anyone

3. Don't do it

While academic jobs aren't for everyone, there are many reasons why people might want to do them, particularly early on in one's career. You still have a ton to learn after you finish training and a department with supportive mentors or access to certain clinical services or patient populations can provide you with additional experience you can't get elsewhere. If you want to teach, do research, develop skills in administration and program development, then it's the main option. If you want to be an educational leader then it may be one of the only options. Some universities have outstanding benefits (e.g. good pension though the days of getting 350k pensions for shrinks are over, very generous sick leave, professional leave, sabbaticals, PSLF). Some academic jobs can be very cush (e.g. seeing 8 inpts with 2 PGY-2 residents who do all the work). While things went sour for me in academics, I got to do and see stuff you just don't get anywhere else, good support from colleagues, get to teach, I got lots of time off (we had 24 days vacation, 3 months fully paid sick leave, 14 holidays, and up to 48 days professional leave each year), decent pension and multiple retirement plans (401a, 403b, 457) and I was making about 400k/yr. Then they screwed everything up by slashing pay, increasing productivity targets, pitting people again each other, and it became untenable so I left. I think a lot of academic jobs are academic in name only but there are probably still some good ones out there and there may be opportunities to supplement your income quite well.

I can tell you those top coastal programs can be very snobby and will not usually accept anyone. I always thought my institution just didnt get anyone applying (as we had a ton of vacancies) and was shocked to learn that we got a ton of people applying who they refused to interview if they didn't think they were of suitable pedigree. Which is to say some of these departments would rather have unfilled vacancies than to allow any one in. One thing about academia is it is almost impossible to get fired [even without tenure] so some places do try to be careful about vetting unknown quantities so they don't end up with a liability they can't get rid of.

 

[Marasmus1]

While academic jobs aren't for everyone, there are many reasons why people might want to do them, particularly early on in one's career. You still have a ton to learn after you finish training and a department with supportive mentors or access to certain clinical services or patient populations can provide you with additional experience you can't get elsewhere. If you want to teach, do research, develop skills in administration and program development, then it's the main option. If you want to be an educational leader then it may be one of the only options. Some universities have outstanding benefits (e.g. good pension though the days of getting 350k pensions for shrinks are over, very generous sick leave, professional leave, sabbaticals, PSLF). Some academic jobs can be very cush (e.g. seeing 8 inpts with 2 PGY-2 residents who do all the work). While things went sour for me in academics, I got to do and see stuff you just don't get anywhere else, good support from colleagues, get to teach, I got lots of time off (we had 24 days vacation, 3 months fully paid sick leave, 14 holidays, and up to 48 days professional leave each year), decent pension and multiple retirement plans (401a, 403b, 457) and I was making about 400k/yr. Then they screwed everything up by slashing pay, increasing productivity targets, pitting people again each other, and it became untenable so I left. I think a lot of academic jobs are academic in name only but there are probably still some good ones out there and there may be opportunities to supplement your income quite well.

I can tell you those top coastal programs can be very snobby and will not usually accept anyone. I always thought my institution just didnt get anyone applying (as we had a ton of vacancies) and was shocked to learn that we got a ton of people applying who they refused to interview if they didn't think they were of suitable pedigree. Which is to say some of these departments would rather have unfilled vacancies than to allow any one in. One thing about academia is it is almost impossible to get fired [even without tenure] so some places do try to be careful about vetting unknown quantities so they don't end up with a liability they can't get rid of.

Can you elaborate on that? I signed up with a university hospital recently. If I understand what I am reading, my contract clearly states that both party can terminate employment as long as 90 days notice is given.

 

[yoloswagpoop42069]

While academic jobs aren't for everyone, there are many reasons why people might want to do them, particularly early on in one's career. You still have a ton to learn after you finish training and a department with supportive mentors or access to certain clinical services or patient populations can provide you with additional experience you can't get elsewhere. If you want to teach, do research, develop skills in administration and program development, then it's the main option. If you want to be an educational leader then it may be one of the only options. Some universities have outstanding benefits (e.g. good pension though the days of getting 350k pensions for shrinks are over, very generous sick leave, professional leave, sabbaticals, PSLF). Some academic jobs can be very cush (e.g. seeing 8 inpts with 2 PGY-2 residents who do all the work). While things went sour for me in academics, I got to do and see stuff you just don't get anywhere else, good support from colleagues, get to teach, I got lots of time off (we had 24 days vacation, 3 months fully paid sick leave, 14 holidays, and up to 48 days professional leave each year), decent pension and multiple retirement plans (401a, 403b, 457) and I was making about 400k/yr. Then they screwed everything up by slashing pay, increasing productivity targets, pitting people again each other, and it became untenable so I left. I think a lot of academic jobs are academic in name only but there are probably still some good ones out there and there may be opportunities to supplement your income quite well.

I can tell you those top coastal programs can be very snobby and will not usually accept anyone. I always thought my institution just didnt get anyone applying (as we had a ton of vacancies) and was shocked to learn that we got a ton of people applying who they refused to interview if they didn't think they were of suitable pedigree. Which is to say some of these departments would rather have unfilled vacancies than to allow any one in. One thing about academia is it is almost impossible to get fired [even without tenure] so some places do try to be careful about vetting unknown quantities so they don't end up with a liability they can't get rid of.

I respect this well written position and have to defer to you because you’re the GOAT, and have the experience in academia to support such a position.

I would say 400k academic positions are unusual and you would need to be near chair or have a significant leadership position, requiring substantial time in academia to grind to a 400k salary.

I have near 500k in debt. Academia and **** pay is not for me.

If I came from a wealthy background with no debt, I would probably consider it just for fun.

 

[Meyer-Overton]

If I came from a wealthy background with no debt, I would probably consider it just for fun.

Never understood this rationale. Just because you have no debt, why would you want to make less money?

 

[shoomer]

Never understood this rationale. Just because you have no debt, why would you want to make less money?

There's diminishing returns when it comes to money. And education/research can be a rewarding experience in of itself as splik said.

Not to say that you should take less money for the sake of it. But academia has interesting qualities, and the relatively low-pay is tolerable when you're not in debt.

 

[SmallBird]

Echoing some above, if you are only interested in a clinical job, academic work is generally suboptimal for a variety of reasons.

Academia is reasonable if you are interested in education or research, and jobs are secured through word of mouth, but you'll still need to apply for an open position. This can still be competitive despite low salary. Recently I saw on linkedin that was a big-name academic group hiring a staff physician for research at 180k. There were 25 applicants. I suppose it's a line on your cv that could be used later for better jobs.

I wouldn't pay much attention to the number of applicants as shown on LinkedIn. That probably includes people who just wanted more info on the position and bots.

 

[dl2dp2]

I can tell you those top coastal programs can be very snobby and will not usually accept anyone. I always thought my institution just didnt get anyone applying (as we had a ton of vacancies) and was shocked to learn that we got a ton of people applying who they refused to interview if they didn't think they were of suitable pedigree. Which is to say some of these departments would rather have unfilled vacancies than to allow any one in. One thing about academia is it is almost impossible to get fired [even without tenure] so some places do try to be careful about vetting unknown quantities so they don't end up with a liability they can't get rid of.

This is true across the board and not just "top coastal". Some "regional powerhouses" also pride themselves on this premise. Often many many vacancies are available for many months to years, and yet they refuse to negotiate on salary on principle, or take a candidate who they felt "isn't a good fit", which typically translates to having a lower pedigree. For essential clinical roles, they fill by locum, typically paying many multiples of their full-time salary. The fully-time salaried staff often take these locums to bump their total income. So it's conceivable that you can get to 400k total income even though you are only paid 250k on your day job, if you work every other weekend locum, etc.

Of course, locum rates can change depending on when and whether they hire someone full-time. So this is all very unstable to begin with, let alone various changes up on top for "initiatives", etc.

This usually means that people who stay in academia either moonlight a ton and overwork, or married someone who also makes really good money and essentially holds a part-time job, or are born rich. This is all very "typical" behavior of academia. It's worse at high-prestige places, but across the board is true.

Again, certain things are not possible outside of academia (research, education, etc.), but if you don't want these kinds of activities, stay out of academia. As it stands, very few psychiatrists are actually good fit for academia, which is why they have a hella hard time recruiting.

 

[tr]

This is so far removed from my experience I am having a hard time even registering it. No one looks for academic positions on linked in. Every academic dept I know, including the big names, are desperate to hire. They do pay **** but there can be other compensating factors (although not always). But the **** pay is why it isn't actually competitive.

A specific niche job might not be available (for example, in CL, if your heart is set on txp a dept might not be looking for a new txp person, and only might have general CL or you might need to do some outpatient) but overall everyone is begging people to work for them.

I think these disparities in experience arise because there are several different things called 'academia.'

The very same institution that may be thrilled to hire you for a full time clinical workload with weekend call at some satellite hospital while they pay you peanuts and give you a 'clinical professor ' title as an ego stroke to assuage the wound to the pocketbook, will studiously ignore your emails if they get a whiff that you might be asking them for protected research time, seed funding, space, or anything else that would make academia an appealing option compared to community based clinical practice.

 

[G Sheb]

You are only of value in academia if you can bring the research grants or you're the rare clinician who knows how to play the politics game, are a renowned educator and can climb the leadership ladder.
Otherwise you will sit low in the pecking order, get a lot of s*** from everyone else, and most likely be paid pretty low. Surprisingly many are ok with this as long as they get the title at x University.

 

[dl2dp2]

You are only of value in academia if you can bring the research grants or you're the rare clinician who knows how to play the politics game, are a renowned educator and can climb the leadership ladder.
Otherwise you will sit low in the pecking order, get a lot of s*** from everyone else, and most likely be paid pretty low. Surprisingly many are ok with this as long as they get the title at x University.

Well, not many. I recently explored a senior leadership position at a major, massive regional academic medical center (didn't end up getting the offer, which is perhaps a blessing). It turns out that one of their major clinical services only has 2 full-time attendings--the fellowship director and the associate fellowship director. LOL the fellowship has 6 yearly fellows. Nobody stays.

I know several chairs at major departments and prior to visiting this department had some correspondence with the chairs. The situation seems equally dire in most departments. Most large clinical divisions seem to not be able to grow larger than a handful of attending-level MDs. Larger services are typically inpatient, which is a drag because funding comes from government agencies and is only nominally academic, and basically break even. Federally funded research actually has a better profit margin, with its guaranteed 60% indirect rates, which is why everyone wants to chase after those, but it's also obvious that this is a foolhardy endeavor for second-tier schools.

I would say it's actually very challenging to run/grow an academic clinical service. Politics is a secondary phenomenon--the main issue is that the money is just not there, so everything becomes a zero-sum game. Most academic hospital-based services lose money, so then the question becomes how much salary are you willing to offer to lose more money for every patient you see if the entire budget is centrally controlled by the rest of the hospital?? The followup question is why wouldn't you want to build up the service and negotiate with insurance/govt so they pay more per visit. But, why would anyone want to do this work and scale the business when your salary is completely decoupled from RVU? lol it's very interesting when you have an insider view of all of this. It's almost like seeing how socialism fails on a small scale.