How do you know when to quit med school?

[cluckcluck]

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As a disclaimer, I know this is an EXTREMELY odd question to be asking on these forums especially, but I don't know where else to ask this. I guess what I may be looking for is if there are any of your friends, relatives, ex-classmates, etc. who found that med school was not for them? Also, what triggered that, and what did they end up doing?

For my background:

I am a 3rd year who feels like it's been nothing but a struggle for me intellectually to stay in this program. I have never been close to failing anything so far, but that's not to say that things have gone super smooth all the time.

After Step 1 results and the start of these clinical rotations, it's now become VERY apparent to me that I lack the mental capacity to do well in such a profession. There are times when I am trying so hard to learn something (e.g. recently was shown a simple procedure in the OR) and I try to focus, but when I try to perform, I just can't grasp it immediately like everybody else can. I look over at my peers and the 1st year residents, and they pick things up after being shown or taught once, and it's like a simple everyday task for them. When seniors ask us questions, things don't click for me like I see they do for others. I feel like I lag behind my peers in intelligence all the time, like there's just some chunk of my brain involving learning that's missing.

I always heard 3rd year was supposed to be rewarding and exciting. Instead, it's just exposing all my flaws. It's just all the little things that make me notice how I lag behind. Like I have to spend 15 minutes prewriting things in my notebook before I round on a patient because I will forget to look/ask something if I don't. I have to constantly look back at a guide before doing something. This makes me feel so slow. Everyone else just walks in, remembers to do everything, comes out finished and perfect in little or no time.

At first, I thought my passion and such could endure it, but I am starting to realize now that maybe it was all a lie. I admit, it's dangerous for someone as unqualified as me to be practicing on actual patients with only heart and no brains.

I don't know where I'd go if not here, but I think things may start to get worse if I don't change soon.

 

[ucladoc2b]

As a disclaimer, I know this is an EXTREMELY odd question to be asking on these forums especially, but I don't know where else to ask this. I guess what I may be looking for is if there are any of your friends, relatives, ex-classmates, etc. who found that med school was not for them? Also, what triggered that, and what did they end up doing?

For my background:

I am a 3rd year who feels like it's been nothing but a struggle for me intellectually to stay in this program. I have never been close to failing anything so far, but that's not to say that things have gone super smooth all the time.

After Step 1 results and the start of these clinical rotations, it's now become VERY apparent to me that I lack the mental capacity to do well in such a profession. There are times when I am trying so hard to learn something (e.g. recently was shown a simple procedure in the OR) and I try to focus, but when I try to perform, I just can't grasp it immediately like everybody else can. I look over at my peers and the 1st year residents, and they pick things up after being shown or taught once, and it's like a simple everyday task for them. When seniors ask us questions, things don't click for me like I see they do for others. I feel like I lag behind my peers in intelligence all the time, like there's just some chunk of my brain involving learning that's missing.

At first, I thought my passion and such could endure it, but I am starting to realize now that maybe it was all a lie. I admit, it's dangerous for someone as unqualified as me to be practicing on actual patients with only heart and no brains.

I don't know where I'd go if not here, but I think things may start to get worse if I don't change soon.

Hang in there. As long as you are not failing exams or rotations, you are ok. You're what, a month into third year? These things take time to learn.

 

[adaptation1]

trust me, dude. there's a few of people like you in your class. I'm just like you. I'm a third year as well. I do everything 5 steps slower than others. need to constantly reference materials. my strengths are definitely not in the clinic. i'm scared for my patients.

 

[thepoopologist]

As a disclaimer, I know this is an EXTREMELY odd question to be asking on these forums especially, but I don't know where else to ask this. I guess what I may be looking for is if there are any of your friends, relatives, ex-classmates, etc. who found that med school was not for them? Also, what triggered that, and what did they end up doing?

For my background:

I am a 3rd year who feels like it's been nothing but a struggle for me intellectually to stay in this program. I have never been close to failing anything so far, but that's not to say that things have gone super smooth all the time.

After Step 1 results and the start of these clinical rotations, it's now become VERY apparent to me that I lack the mental capacity to do well in such a profession. There are times when I am trying so hard to learn something (e.g. recently was shown a simple procedure in the OR) and I try to focus, but when I try to perform, I just can't grasp it immediately like everybody else can. I look over at my peers and the 1st year residents, and they pick things up after being shown or taught once, and it's like a simple everyday task for them. When seniors ask us questions, things don't click for me like I see they do for others. I feel like I lag behind my peers in intelligence all the time, like there's just some chunk of my brain involving learning that's missing.

I always heard 3rd year was supposed to be rewarding and exciting. Instead, it's just exposing all my flaws. It's just all the little things that make me notice how I lag behind. Like I have to spend 15 minutes prewriting things in my notebook before I round on a patient because I will forget to look/ask something if I don't. I have to constantly look back at a guide before doing something. This makes me feel so slow. Everyone else just walks in, remembers to do everything, comes out finished and perfect in little or no time.

At first, I thought my passion and such could endure it, but I am starting to realize now that maybe it was all a lie. I admit, it's dangerous for someone as unqualified as me to be practicing on actual patients with only heart and no brains.

I don't know where I'd go if not here, but I think things may start to get worse if I don't change soon.

You are supposed to feel stretched, you are one month in. The idea is to improve from your baseline and pass your rotations, nothing more.

 

[1Life]

1) Lack of intelligence is a subjective experience and is relative most of the time. Be careful not to use negative generalizations that harm you. God knows how many times you've repeated that mantra in your mind.

2) There is a systematic and step-by-step way everyone uses to grasp information. What worked for you? Have you ever been unable to learn quickly or remember things. Give information meaning, picture it, attach real life scenarios to it, make connections that click with you.

3) How do you study? Do you study in chunks or in bulk? Medicine is actually life long learning. You can overcome bad or inefficient study habits you developed in a few years. It is never to late. In fact, the information is still in your mind, you just have to organize it and make it accessible. This means you don't have to relearn year 1 or 2 stuff but you will be reviewing it. Are you a slow reader? or do you read fast or can't retain what you read?


Some people have been lucky enough to pattern their brain to learn the right way while growing up. Try what works for you and apply it.

P.S. When you walk into the patient's room, don't think about presenting or make the attending important. You are there because of the patient. Focus on the problems the patient has. Think of the problems' association with an organ system. Pay attention that you feel good when you ask yourself questions or find things out, because you are learning! don't compare yourself with other students. Med students are known for putting up a front and hiding their weaknesses.

 

[michaelrack]

before quitting, go see a psychologist and be eval for things like adhd, learning disability, etc

 

[causalinference]

Don't be too hard on yourself. Ask for feedback and make adjustments according to what your residents and attendings say. Don't look over at your peers and try to compete with them. Everyone learns and functions at their own pace. Doing a good job slowly is better than doing a bad job quickly.

 

[deleted480308]

The school will be more than willing to tell you if you are failing...and you are not.

Hang in there, you made it past 2 years and a step 1...you can do this. It would be a shame to quit now...keep fighting through the tough times, it will get better

 

[dally1025]

There's nothing wrong with using cheat sheets so you don't forget to ask patients things. The questions you ask differ by rotation and even by attending and I used them throughout the year to remember the specific questions I really needed to ask. The only way to get better is to practice. Don't be discouraged yet. Learn how to do things the right way and with time and experience you'll get faster. Everyone has looked like a fool on occasion, especially in the beginning. The way I see it, it's ok to look like a fool now so you don't look like one in residency. No one expects much so it doesn't take much to impress once you figure things out. You're right, it's is danergous for someone to be left in unexperienced hands but med students don't have that much responsiblity and there are residents and attendings to teach you. Don't be afraid to ask for help from them or your fellow students.

I thought 3rd year was supposed to be incredible and so much better than the pre-clinical years. Although I liked it more it wasn't by much and it was more difficult in many ways. It goes by quickly and after it's all over you'll look back and see how far you've come. I recently saw some of the new M3's start and it made me remember how clueless I was when I first started.

 

[ucsfstudents]

I agree that repeating negative mantras can only hurt you. It is good that you are recognizing your weaknesses -- -now try to work on them and make up for them. Medicine is geared towards extroverted sensing thinking and judging (Myers Briggs) personality types. If you're lacking in these areas naturally, it can be a struggle. Doesn't mean that the game is over. Hopefully you find an area of medicine you enjoy and that mesh well with your own strengths. Work to be the best you possible, not to be better than anyone else. And start repeating positive mantras. Hang in there!

 

[High Roller]

As a disclaimer, I know this is an EXTREMELY odd question to be asking on these forums especially, but I don't know where else to ask this. I guess what I may be looking for is if there are any of your friends, relatives, ex-classmates, etc. who found that med school was not for them? Also, what triggered that, and what did they end up doing?

For my background:

I am a 3rd year who feels like it's been nothing but a struggle for me intellectually to stay in this program. I have never been close to failing anything so far, but that's not to say that things have gone super smooth all the time.

After Step 1 results and the start of these clinical rotations, it's now become VERY apparent to me that I lack the mental capacity to do well in such a profession. There are times when I am trying so hard to learn something (e.g. recently was shown a simple procedure in the OR) and I try to focus, but when I try to perform, I just can't grasp it immediately like everybody else can. I look over at my peers and the 1st year residents, and they pick things up after being shown or taught once, and it's like a simple everyday task for them. When seniors ask us questions, things don't click for me like I see they do for others. I feel like I lag behind my peers in intelligence all the time, like there's just some chunk of my brain involving learning that's missing.

I always heard 3rd year was supposed to be rewarding and exciting. Instead, it's just exposing all my flaws. It's just all the little things that make me notice how I lag behind. Like I have to spend 15 minutes prewriting things in my notebook before I round on a patient because I will forget to look/ask something if I don't. I have to constantly look back at a guide before doing something. This makes me feel so slow. Everyone else just walks in, remembers to do everything, comes out finished and perfect in little or no time.

At first, I thought my passion and such could endure it, but I am starting to realize now that maybe it was all a lie. I admit, it's dangerous for someone as unqualified as me to be practicing on actual patients with only heart and no brains.

I don't know where I'd go if not here, but I think things may start to get worse if I don't change soon.

Honestly... I didn't read much more after the bolded part. If you're passing, you have what it takes. You're just very discouraged right now, and I know I felt the same when I started 3rd year. Get honest feedback from everyone you work with, you might be surprised.

And don't fall prey to the impostor syndrome. It sucks to be in a culture (med school) where you feel like its unacceptable to let down your guard and say "I don't know this, teach me". But as you get farther in along in your training, you'll realize that patients and your colleagues will begin to judge you more and more by your work ethic, discipline, and attitude towards patients.

And someone else nailed it...go seek professional help now to make sure all barriers are being addressed.

 

[Medstudent1968]

Sounds like you're being hard on yourself. While you may learn slower (I'm not even sure that's true) if you never stop improving you'll eventually surpass those who may have initially had the advantage.

 

[violetd]

There is NO WAY that you got in, are passing, and are too dumb to do this. My guess is, you're super smart and facing true challenge and frustration for the first time. That makes us all feel inadequate, it's just that those of us who lack your natural intellectual ability are more accustomed to it!

If you truly hate the people part, there's always path or radiology. But give yourself more time before you give up. I bet you'll find your groove again.

Good luck. 🙂

 

[nowanmd]

I think most med students feel this way and when I was a resident (especially an intern), I felt this way, I'm a board certified internist (for the last 13 years). Medicine is like any profession/trade - experience will be your best teacher. I have the confidence that I'm just as good as any other physician (maybe better). This ain't rocket science- you will get the hang of it and it will become "natural to you". Don't quit, you'll get there.

The best thing I ever did in my life was going to medical school- hang in there it will be worth it 👍

 

[VenusinFurs]

I still felt this way more than half way through third year; it was only towards the very end that I felt things were sort of coming together for me, and I'm still a bit terrified of starting my first AI. But you HAVE to bear in mind, you are nowhere near being in a position where you can really hurt someone. You'll be astonished how much knowledge you pick up during the year and how much easier it gets to get a good history, do physicals, learn basic management, etc. If you're passing and your attendings are giving you mostly "Bs" or solid passing grades, that means they trust you enough.

I GUARANTEE you aren't the only person feeling this way. Seriously, don't let it get you down. The more you let it get you the worse you'll actually be; the more you enjoy yourself and stay positive the better you'll mesh in with the rotation. Don't quit!

 

[BushDoc20]

ok first thing..Breathe...when i was doing my surg rotation i had a hardass registrar that pushed me more than any other med student he'd had....it may seem hard but in the long run, that person has made you a better doctor pushing you to breaking point you learn the most valuable lesson....patience is a virtue... keep in mind that you're not failing so you're doing something right!

 

[Perrotfish]

As a disclaimer, I know this is an EXTREMELY odd question to be asking on these forums especially, but I don't know where else to ask this. I guess what I may be looking for is if there are any of your friends, relatives, ex-classmates, etc. who found that med school was not for them? Also, what triggered that, and what did they end up doing?

For my background:

I am a 3rd year who feels like it's been nothing but a struggle for me intellectually to stay in this program. I have never been close to failing anything so far, but that's not to say that things have gone super smooth all the time.

After Step 1 results and the start of these clinical rotations, it's now become VERY apparent to me that I lack the mental capacity to do well in such a profession. There are times when I am trying so hard to learn something (e.g. recently was shown a simple procedure in the OR) and I try to focus, but when I try to perform, I just can't grasp it immediately like everybody else can. I look over at my peers and the 1st year residents, and they pick things up after being shown or taught once, and it's like a simple everyday task for them. When seniors ask us questions, things don't click for me like I see they do for others. I feel like I lag behind my peers in intelligence all the time, like there's just some chunk of my brain involving learning that's missing.

I always heard 3rd year was supposed to be rewarding and exciting. Instead, it's just exposing all my flaws. It's just all the little things that make me notice how I lag behind. Like I have to spend 15 minutes prewriting things in my notebook before I round on a patient because I will forget to look/ask something if I don't. I have to constantly look back at a guide before doing something. This makes me feel so slow. Everyone else just walks in, remembers to do everything, comes out finished and perfect in little or no time.

At first, I thought my passion and such could endure it, but I am starting to realize now that maybe it was all a lie. I admit, it's dangerous for someone as unqualified as me to be practicing on actual patients with only heart and no brains.

I don't know where I'd go if not here, but I think things may start to get worse if I don't change soon.

You're grossly overestimating your peers and the first year residents. Either you go to some school where the students are all top 1% or your peers are NOT learning surgical procedures based on one run through. How the heck would you event tell? No sane school would ever let a medical student actually perform surgery. The residents aren't either picking it up that fast either, BTW, they've been through nearly a year of electives in their chosen field and they're still pretty much clueless and have the more senior residents following them around like sheepdogs to make sure they don't kill anyone.

3rd year is not exciting or rewarding and whoever told you that is a king sized jackass who either is or will be on the administrative staff of a medical school. It's a demoralizing pile of suck, and your surgery rotation is the prize turd. It's also not your fault. You're doing fine. You will get through this.

 

[Rothbard]

nm

 

[mezzamerize]

Don't be hard on yourself. I mean, you got into med school and passed the first part of the boards, so you are not intellectually challenged. Just remember that when you actually start practicing medicine, you will not need the vast majority of what you learned in your first two years of med school. Just stick with it and it will all turn out fine. Plus, by third year, you are in FAR too much debt to quit.

 

[cluckcluck]

I'm the OP of this old thread. Things have gone horribly south. I've just failed my surgery rotation, and due to my low shelf score, I cannot retake the shelf and have to redo the entire rotation.

I don't know what to do. I really don't think I have the energy or the will to take months of surgery again. It's just humiliating to have to face my residents and classmates telling them that I'm here again because I failed.

I can't understand myself in school. I have no specialty of interest yet because nothing makes me excited. I don't understand myself. I actually enjoy busy/scut work in rotations just for the sake of working because it makes me feel like I have something to do so I can make the time pass until tomorrow. My lack of drive for truly learning medicine forces me to have to feign interest in rotations every single day.

I wish I were suicidal or depressed or something, because then there would be some explanation for this mess, and I could solve this with therapy or medications. But I have nothing like that, all I see in myself is mediocrity, lack of ambition, mentally challenged, and lazy. There is no explanation for any of it, I just feel like a brainless zombie.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I'm the OP of this old thread. Things have gone horribly south. I've just failed my surgery rotation, and due to my low shelf score, I cannot retake the shelf and have to redo the entire rotation.

I don't know what to do. I really don't think I have the energy or the will to take months of surgery again. It's just humiliating to have to face my residents and classmates telling them that I'm here again because I failed.

I can't understand myself in school. I have no specialty of interest yet because nothing makes me excited. I don't understand myself. I actually enjoy busy/scut work in rotations just for the sake of working because it makes me feel like I have something to do so I can make the time pass until tomorrow. My lack of drive for truly learning medicine forces me to have to feign interest in rotations every single day.

I wish I were suicidal or depressed or something, because then there would be some explanation for this mess, and I could solve this with therapy or medications. But I have nothing like that, all I see in myself is mediocrity, lack of ambition, mentally challenged, and lazy. There is no explanation for any of it, I just feel like a brainless zombie.

Did you ever see a counselor to screen for a learning disability?

 

[ECkayak]

I don't know what to do. I really don't think I have the energy or the will to take months of surgery again. It's just humiliating to have to face my residents and classmates telling them that I'm here again because I failed.

I think most of your classmates will be very helpful and understanding. Were people giving you a hard time during your surgery rotation? If not, you might be surprised at how much your classmates are willing to help you through all this. It's like that at my school, I hope it's the same way with yours.

 

[NunoBR]

I'm the OP of this old thread. Things have gone horribly south. I've just failed my surgery rotation, and due to my low shelf score, I cannot retake the shelf and have to redo the entire rotation.

I don't know what to do. I really don't think I have the energy or the will to take months of surgery again. It's just humiliating to have to face my residents and classmates telling them that I'm here again because I failed.

I can't understand myself in school. I have no specialty of interest yet because nothing makes me excited. I don't understand myself. I actually enjoy busy/scut work in rotations just for the sake of working because it makes me feel like I have something to do so I can make the time pass until tomorrow. My lack of drive for truly learning medicine forces me to have to feign interest in rotations every single day.

I wish I were suicidal or depressed or something, because then there would be some explanation for this mess, and I could solve this with therapy or medications. But I have nothing like that, all I see in myself is mediocrity, lack of ambition, mentally challenged, and lazy. There is no explanation for any of it, I just feel like a brainless zombie.

I have a similar story. It wasn't until almost the end of medical school that I realized I was suffering from severe depression. Things can present very differently for different people and you SHOULD NOT diagnose yourself and assume people are not willing to help you. There's help, everywhere, it's just hard to see and accept it. See professional help ASAP. I went to a great college, top 20 med school, Ivy grad school and still felt (and sometimes feel) like the stupidest person.... It's all about attitude and confidence and you just need to find a way to get yours back.... I'm still trying... Every day. I'm now a 2nd year resident, doing well, great actually, but EVERY DAY I face my inner demon and I have to calm it down somehow. These skills take years to learn, because as someone else pointed out, all our lives we did well and we are not used to failing so when something like this happens we feel helpless. Look how many people here have jumped to help you with advice, that alone is an indication that the people around you are willing to help (hell, aren't we all med students, residents and attendings - in the forum and around you?) and that a lot of people can relate to your story in some way. Keep pushing and it'll happen, until then, hang in there. Feel free to PM me if you want.

 

[SteinUmStein]

Harsh words for someone who appears to have gotten into a US medical school, passed all M1 classes, passed all M2 classes, passed Step 1, and passed all M3 rotations so far except surgery. The bolded bit: well, sometimes that's what being depressed feels like - not necessarily sad 24/7, just deeply convinced that you're a terrible person.

People fail rotations sometimes. There are good reasons why one rotation failure doesn't equal auto-expulsion. Talk to someone about this - counselor, dean, whoever (probably someone who has seen a lot of medical students over the years would be the most helpful, but even talking to peers is better than isolating yourself). The worst thing that could happen is that they'd tell you to drop out, which is not any worse than you *not* talking to anyone and dropping out. And for all you know, maybe they'll tell you that things can still be okay.

I think you're on the right track, this honestly sounds like depression. The self-image OP is giving us is unrealistically harsh. If you can make it into med school and get this far, you are not stupid. Go get some help from your class counselor or see someone outside your institution if you're more comfortable, it sounds like you have some pretty warped thoughts on your own abilities and intelligence that may be part of what's slowing you down. Confidence is key during clinical rotations, even if it's mostly undeserved at first... 'fake it till you make it' and all that.

 

[primadonna22274]

I agree with the assessment of depression. Get help NOW. Counseling is great but right now you need mood-rebalancing eg an SSRI or something. Medical training is very difficult and depression is rampant among trainees. Please don't be ashamed to ask for help--you have come this far. Best wishes.

 

[J ROD]

I would say you might be depressed or have something else going on.

Can you point to a reason why you failed your surgery shelf?

You are almost done with 3rd yr so you should be better at all the stuff you mentioned before.

I would not come this far and quit. Just try to get your mojo or groove back.

We all struggle.........it is how you overcome that struggle that makes you what you are

 

[thepoopologist]

I'm the OP of this old thread. Things have gone horribly south. I've just failed my surgery rotation, and due to my low shelf score, I cannot retake the shelf and have to redo the entire rotation.

I don't know what to do. I really don't think I have the energy or the will to take months of surgery again. It's just humiliating to have to face my residents and classmates telling them that I'm here again because I failed.

I can't understand myself in school. I have no specialty of interest yet because nothing makes me excited. I don't understand myself. I actually enjoy busy/scut work in rotations just for the sake of working because it makes me feel like I have something to do so I can make the time pass until tomorrow. My lack of drive for truly learning medicine forces me to have to feign interest in rotations every single day.

I wish I were suicidal or depressed or something, because then there would be some explanation for this mess, and I could solve this with therapy or medications. But I have nothing like that, all I see in myself is mediocrity, lack of ambition, mentally challenged, and lazy. There is no explanation for any of it, I just feel like a brainless zombie.

Look if you were a 1st year, I'd tell you to take a leave of absence. At this point you are in so much debt your choices are either becoming a physician or a Bond villain to pay off those loans.

You need to learn to let failure roll off your shoulder and to realize that it is sometimes not passion but rather willpower that gets people through these situations. If I had gone with my natural instincts half of my attendings heads would be on a stick, the hospital eviscerated by an atomic bomb, and I would be on death row randomly stabbing guys to maintain my alpha dog status. You have to make the best of a horrible situation and get the degree at least. Then re-evaluate if you must.

 

[PaxAmericana]

I've had a situation pretty similar here too... At least somewhat. I'm a 2nd year at an alright private med school (nothing fancy) doing md/mph. Starting in the spring of MS1, I just couldn't force myself to study the **** anymore - granted, MS1 is boring as hell, but I couldn't even force myself to do MPH classes that are supposed to be fun and engaging and blah since I actually like epidemiology. I ended up failing one in the spring. Then, I took 2 *online* courses in the summer, and failed the both. How do you fail online MPH classes?! Especially social & behavioral aspects of health & health economics. They weren't even epi/biostats classes?! I'll tell you how, over the same summer I took an in-class course in clinical epidemiology / evidence-based medicine. Made an A there. If I liked the subject, I could make myself study it. Apparently, I just hated everything else that I was required to take.

Anyway, I finally visited a psychiatrist. My life was going ok otherwise, but really it was depression in terms of dealing with school and dealing with crap I didn't want to do. It took some trial and error, but an atypical SSRI called Viibryd + Wellbutrin/Bupropion has changed how I feel about doing the crap they make me do (and studying for step 1 that I take in 13 days) so I can eventually do some crap that I want to do (like being a doctor). My outlook hasn't necessarily changed, but how I feel about it certainly has.

You can search online & I'm sure you memorized it before (for step 1? It's in FA), but depression is characterized by a depressed mood (at least by the way you type you sound it!) and/or anhedonia (I believe your first post might have cited a "passion" for medicine? Any chance that's faded away?)

Then of course there's a list of all the other symptoms - from DSM 4, you gotta have at least 1 up there and 4 of these to have major depression, otherwise it's dysthymia (which is still feeling ****ty and would still respond to an antidepressant) or an atypical depression.

- feeling worthless/guilty - the only 2 posts I've seen of yours typifies feelings of worthlessness & guilt - "I'm afraid for my patients." "I'm not good enough." "I can't perform as well as my peers."
- difficult concentrating / being indecisive - You posted twice over the course of a year about both your inability to concentrate and your difficulty making a decision whether you should quit your program.
- having sleep disturbances?
- any fatigue or loss of energy?
- any weight changes?
- have you ever experienced any psychomotor ******ation or agitation? (Maybe a "leaden paralysis"?)
- Have you ever thought about hurting yourself?

If the two posts you've made on this thread are any indication of how you think / feel / behave in the rest of the world, I'd say you're about 1 symptom shy right now of a diagnosis of major depression.

Then there's always the most commonly diagnosed subtype of depression, atypical depression, where you're still able to have an improvement in mood when something good happens, but you really do just feel like **** most of the time. It still responds to SSRIs and other antidepressants!

I would highly recommend seeing a psychiatrist. Any chance you have health insurance? Go find one. You'll be glad you did.

 

[Textbookversion]

You don't quit until they kick you out, duh. Get help, you sound depressed. Also look up imposter syndrome on Wikipedia.

 

[deleted480308]

Look at what you have accomplished so far......you are not a failure. Seek counseling and keep going, you can do this

 

[pdxhopeful]

Please, seek help.

Do what you can too to challenge your self-talk. I doubt you'd be nearly as harsh on a friend having similar difficulties as you are on yourself.

 

[tobi44]

i would say you might be depressed or have something else going on.

can you point to a reason why you failed your surgery shelf?

you are almost done with 3rd yr so you should be better at all the stuff you mentioned before.

I would not come this far and quit. Just try to get your mojo or groove back.

We all struggle.........it is how you overcome that struggle that makes you what you are

+1

 

[VenusinFurs]

I'm the OP of this old thread. Things have gone horribly south. I've just failed my surgery rotation, and due to my low shelf score, I cannot retake the shelf and have to redo the entire rotation.

I don't know what to do. I really don't think I have the energy or the will to take months of surgery again. It's just humiliating to have to face my residents and classmates telling them that I'm here again because I failed.

I can't understand myself in school. I have no specialty of interest yet because nothing makes me excited. I don't understand myself. I actually enjoy busy/scut work in rotations just for the sake of working because it makes me feel like I have something to do so I can make the time pass until tomorrow. My lack of drive for truly learning medicine forces me to have to feign interest in rotations every single day.

I wish I were suicidal or depressed or something, because then there would be some explanation for this mess, and I could solve this with therapy or medications. But I have nothing like that, all I see in myself is mediocrity, lack of ambition, mentally challenged, and lazy. There is no explanation for any of it, I just feel like a brainless zombie.

I think you are suffering from the same issues I did in third year, where a few incidents of feeling stupid (which happens to everyone) made me feel like I was the worst, which then turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy where I consistently got some less than stellar evals due to a transparently lackluster attitude and lost my drive to study for shelf exams. I almost failed OB GYN due to hating almost everything about the labor hall, including the nurses and the residents, but hating myself worst of all. I got out of it on my own by having a month on an easier outpatient peds rotation that I really enjoyed, but it sounds like your levels of sadness and self-doubt are more critical.

While it sounds like you've still got the drive to work hard/ feign interest in your remaining rotations, so the rest of your year should go fine, I concur with everyone else that you need some help. Go talk to your dean. Say you need help. The school might have resources that are more attractive than going to a local psychiatrist (my school has psych services that are anonymous and the providers you see can not evaluate you on any rotations).

 

[Anigma07]

Don't listen to the pre-meds giving you advice. If you think you are too "lazy" and you want to quit then you can but you won't be successful in other field with that attitude.

Pull yourself together and start exercising/eating healthy. Also drink some coffee if you need some more focus/more energy. Don't listen to people that are saying it gets better, YOU have to get stronger and better throughout the process. Build yourself up and everything else will fall into place.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Don't listen to the pre-meds giving you advice. If you think you are too "lazy" and you want to quit then you can but you won't be successful in other field with that attitude.

Pull yourself together and start exercising/eating healthy. Also drink some coffee if you need some more focus/more energy. Don't listen to people that are saying it gets better, YOU have to get stronger and better throughout the process. Build yourself up and everything else will fall into place.

yeah brah if he just ate right, took some supps and started liftin heavy I bet everything would be cool.

The guy needs to go see a counselor and probably a psychiatrist, not try to self medicate by eating healthy and drinking coffee. As one poster above said, just from his posts alone he sounds about 1 symptom away from major depression and (if he's been feeling like this for two years) he's probably at least dysthymic. OP needs to set up a meeting with the counseling center.

 

[Anigma07]

yeah brah if he just ate right, took some supps and started liftin heavy I bet everything would be cool.

The guy needs to go see a counselor and probably a psychiatrist, not try to self medicate by eating healthy and drinking coffee. As one poster above said, just from his posts alone he sounds about 1 symptom away from major depression and (if he's been feeling like this for two years) he's probably at least dysthymic. OP needs to set up a meeting with the counseling center.

Self-medicate by eating healthy? You should go sit in the corner for a bit and maybe go back to get your high school diploma.

If you want to be in a drugged up haze passing through life then go to a psychiatrist and they will prescribe you something to dull the pain (temporarily). Listen to my first post OP, work on building yourself up.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Self-medicate by eating healthy? You should go sit in the corner for a bit and maybe go back to get your high school diploma.

If you want to be in a drugged up haze passing through life then go to a psychiatrist and they will prescribe you something to dull the pain (temporarily). Listen to my first post OP, work on building yourself up.

You just opened my eyes man. Those counselors and psychiatrists, all they wanna do is drug you up. Notice I never said anything about him definitely needing SSRIs...he could very well benefit from some weekly sessions. The most important thing is that he actually talk to someone soon not try to suddenly fit in hitting the gym a few times a week in the middle of a rotation he's already failed.

Hey but you should use that advice for all your depressed patients. "Pull yourself together"...I'll have to remember that for psych rotation.

You sure you're actually in medical school and don't go here?
http://www.naturopathicschoolofannarbor.net/

 

[chiz2kul]

1)
P.S. When you walk into the patient's room, don't think about presenting or make the attending important. You are there because of the patient. Focus on the problems the patient has. Think of the problems' association with an organ system. Pay attention that you feel good when you ask yourself questions or find things out, because you are learning! don't compare yourself with other students. Med students are known for putting up a front and hiding their weaknesses.

ding ding ding! I stopped caring about what pple thought and about trying to look good in front of my attending and all that bs that med students are overtly concerned about. I simply started caring about the patient - and that gave me motivation to learn. My whole outlook on life and medicine has changed.

 

[Anigma07]

You just opened my eyes man. Those counselors and psychiatrists, all they wanna do is drug you up. Notice I never said anything about him definitely needing SSRIs...he could very well benefit from some weekly sessions. The most important thing is that he actually talk to someone soon not try to suddenly fit in hitting the gym a few times a week in the middle of a rotation he's already failed.

Hey but you should use that advice for all your depressed patients. "Pull yourself together"...I'll have to remember that for psych rotation.

You sure you're actually in medical school and don't go here?
http://www.naturopathicschoolofannarbor.net/

Also remember that if someone is eating healthy that they are probably self-medicating...maybe you should have went into nursing school with that logic.

If you are depressed, you are depressed for a reason. I am not against the OP talking to a therapist to see the root cause of his depression. But taking drugs to bypass the depression only to have him go further into medicine (and loans) when he is not capable/enjoying it is not the way. And lets be serious, if he goes to a psychiatrist he will be prescribed something.

 

[VenusinFurs]

Exercising definitely helps.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Also remember that if someone is eating healthy that they are probably self-medicating...maybe you should have went into nursing school with that logic.

If you are depressed, you are depressed for a reason. I am not against the OP talking to a therapist to see the root cause of his depression. But taking drugs to bypass the depression only to have him go further into medicine (and loans) when he is not capable/enjoying it is not the way. And lets be serious, if he goes to a psychiatrist he will be prescribed something.

I can agree with that. Medication is not always the way to go. I took your comment as saying try eating healthy and exercising by yourself without seeing a therapist at your school as well. My point is the OP hasn't been able to handle things too well on his own right now so staying isolated with this problem in the future probably won't help.

 

[cluckcluck]

Thank you all for the responses. I've been thinking over a lot these last few days. I would have never imagined such support here and I don't even think my school or any of my peers would ever provide nearly this level of support and care.

Did you ever see a counselor to screen for a learning disability?

No I have never seen a counselor in my life. There are a couple of strange things that have been happening over the last few years though. My memory is starting to have trouble and I'm only in my early 20s. Not the kind where I can't memorize everything in the book, but small tasks that a resident may have instructed me to do just 15 minutes ago, I would forget and have to ask him/her to repeat again. Then, even small things like where did I put my phone/keys 5 minutes ago. That NEVER used to happen before medical school, and it's sort of frightening.

Also, when I used to look up things when I read something I didn't understand, I would then get it and at least retain it for a couple months or so. Now, I'll read something I don't understand, look it up and fully understand it at the moment, then as soon as the next day almost completely forget everything that I had just read.

I think most of your classmates will be very helpful and understanding. Were people giving you a hard time during your surgery rotation? If not, you might be surprised at how much your classmates are willing to help you through all this. It's like that at my school, I hope it's the same way with yours.

On the contrary, no one gave me a hard time during my surgery rotation. The residents treated me very well, they were more harsh and bullying against each other than towards me. The attendings were nice as well. I completely appreciated them, and honestly was surprised they would put up with someone as dumb as me.

I would say you might be depressed or have something else going on.

Can you point to a reason why you failed your surgery shelf?

You are almost done with 3rd yr so you should be better at all the stuff you mentioned before.

I would not come this far and quit. Just try to get your mojo or groove back.

We all struggle.........it is how you overcome that struggle that makes you what you are

I honestly don't know. My canned response is that I didn't study enough/didn't study the right materials. My honest response is that I was not capable of passing and this is my performance level. I don't know what I can do to improve that other then study more?

I've had a situation pretty similar here too... At least somewhat. I'm a 2nd year at an alright private med school (nothing fancy) doing md/mph. Starting in the spring of MS1, I just couldn't force myself to study the **** anymore - granted, MS1 is boring as hell, but I couldn't even force myself to do MPH classes that are supposed to be fun and engaging and blah since I actually like epidemiology. I ended up failing one in the spring. Then, I took 2 *online* courses in the summer, and failed the both. How do you fail online MPH classes?! Especially social & behavioral aspects of health & health economics. They weren't even epi/biostats classes?! I'll tell you how, over the same summer I took an in-class course in clinical epidemiology / evidence-based medicine. Made an A there. If I liked the subject, I could make myself study it. Apparently, I just hated everything else that I was required to take.

Anyway, I finally visited a psychiatrist. My life was going ok otherwise, but really it was depression in terms of dealing with school and dealing with crap I didn't want to do. It took some trial and error, but an atypical SSRI called Viibryd + Wellbutrin/Bupropion has changed how I feel about doing the crap they make me do (and studying for step 1 that I take in 13 days) so I can eventually do some crap that I want to do (like being a doctor). My outlook hasn't necessarily changed, but how I feel about it certainly has.

You can search online & I'm sure you memorized it before (for step 1? It's in FA), but depression is characterized by a depressed mood (at least by the way you type you sound it!) and/or anhedonia (I believe your first post might have cited a "passion" for medicine? Any chance that's faded away?)

Then of course there's a list of all the other symptoms - from DSM 4, you gotta have at least 1 up there and 4 of these to have major depression, otherwise it's dysthymia (which is still feeling ****ty and would still respond to an antidepressant) or an atypical depression.

- feeling worthless/guilty - the only 2 posts I've seen of yours typifies feelings of worthlessness & guilt - "I'm afraid for my patients." "I'm not good enough." "I can't perform as well as my peers."
- difficult concentrating / being indecisive - You posted twice over the course of a year about both your inability to concentrate and your difficulty making a decision whether you should quit your program.
- having sleep disturbances?
- any fatigue or loss of energy?
- any weight changes?
- have you ever experienced any psychomotor ******ation or agitation? (Maybe a "leaden paralysis"?)
- Have you ever thought about hurting yourself?

If the two posts you've made on this thread are any indication of how you think / feel / behave in the rest of the world, I'd say you're about 1 symptom shy right now of a diagnosis of major depression.

Then there's always the most commonly diagnosed subtype of depression, atypical depression, where you're still able to have an improvement in mood when something good happens, but you really do just feel like **** most of the time. It still responds to SSRIs and other antidepressants!

I would highly recommend seeing a psychiatrist. Any chance you have health insurance? Go find one. You'll be glad you did.

I don't really think I'm depressed which is why I've put off seeing a psych. I've tried to run through the questions before, but I still don't really seem to fit them/don't fit the picture of a depressed person.

- feeling worthless/guilty - Maybe yes, but really this is more an honest assessment of myself vs. my peers. And comparably, I am really worthless and it's clearly visible every day at work
- difficult concentrating / being indecisive - Yes with concentration
- having sleep disturbances? No, been sleeping very well
- any fatigue or loss of energy? No, I can still make it to rotations daily
- any weight changes? No, I've maintained the same weight
- have you ever experienced any psychomotor ******ation or agitation? (Maybe a "leaden paralysis"?) No
- Have you ever thought about hurting yourself? Never. I do have thoughts that this life would just end somehow because I am tired of it, but I would never have the courage to pull myself to hurt myself.

It would be hard to really classify myself as depressed based on this. I am also really afraid of being prescribed an SSRI when I really didn't have depression because of the side effects. I know it produces a sort of trance-like state, and I would have to be on it for most of my life. I had a very close relative who was also diagnosed with depression, was put on SSRIs, but has never really recovered and it devastates me to see them struggle every day and is still struggling today.

Don't listen to the pre-meds giving you advice. If you think you are too "lazy" and you want to quit then you can but you won't be successful in other field with that attitude.

Pull yourself together and start exercising/eating healthy. Also drink some coffee if you need some more focus/more energy. Don't listen to people that are saying it gets better, YOU have to get stronger and better throughout the process. Build yourself up and everything else will fall into place.

I am typically a pretty healthy eater. Cook myself most days, don't eat too many fried/greasy foods. Was not working out/lifting weights, but I was in an intramural group with games at nights, so I was still getting exercise.

 

[Rothbard]

OP, I also would not want an SSRI if I were in your situation, but it still might help to see a psychiatrist (whether it's better to do this through your school or independently, I'm not sure). At least they could do some basic labwork (ie, CBC, TSH) and give you a fresh perspective. Even if they prescribe an SSRI, you don't have to take it.

It sounds like it was the shelf exam that failed you, and that your evals were ok. If so, then I doubt this is purely a function of any intellectual deficit on your part - apparently you've made it through nearly three years of monthly medical school exams without a problem. In my (admittedly limited) experience, people who struggle with the intellectual aspect of medical school usually have trouble early on, and then in third year things get a bit easier for them. What was your step I score?

 

[PTPoeny]

Have you gone and talked to your student dean or a counseling service through your school? A lot of people at some point think they aren't as good as everyone else in their class. Talking to someone who talks to a lot of medical students will help you see what you are doing right and how to build on that. If you have passed all of your other rotations, you are doing some things well.

 

[smq123]

I don't really think I'm depressed which is why I've put off seeing a psych. I've tried to run through the questions before, but I still don't really seem to fit them/don't fit the picture of a depressed person.

You should not try to diagnose yourself as depressed or not. Leave it to an experienced mental health professional, who will be able to objectively evaluate you.

And if you don't want to be on meds, you don't have to be. You're a patient, not a prisoner, and it's ultimately your decision as to whether or not you want to take meds.

Good luck.

 

[mvenus929]

I don't know what to do. I really don't think I have the energy or the will to take months of surgery again. It's just humiliating to have to face my residents and classmates telling them that I'm here again because I failed.

I can't understand myself in school. I have no specialty of interest yet because nothing makes me excited. I don't understand myself. I actually enjoy busy/scut work in rotations just for the sake of working because it makes me feel like I have something to do so I can make the time pass until tomorrow. My lack of drive for truly learning medicine forces me to have to feign interest in rotations every single day.

First things first... stop comparing yourself to other people. Only one person initially responded to your post with this, but I want to emphasize it. I forget things all the time when I go into a patient room. We had a practice exam for Step 2 CS a few weeks ago, and I forgot to a physical on one patient, didn't get a meds history on another, and several diagnoses didn't even cross my mind when I was putting together the history. But I'm a student. Things aren't supposed to be perfect. I'm learning... that's the point.

I honestly don't know. My canned response is that I didn't study enough/didn't study the right materials. My honest response is that I was not capable of passing and this is my performance level. I don't know what I can do to improve that other then study more?

From your description, it actually sounds like you're having problems with your memory. It's not so much that you didn't study enough, it's that you couldn't remember what you had studied. While the Surgery shelf is rough, if you passed the Medicine shelf, you are fully capable of passing the Surgery shelf. It's not your ability that's the problem.

I don't really think I'm depressed which is why I've put off seeing a psych. I've tried to run through the questions before, but I still don't really seem to fit them/don't fit the picture of a depressed person.

- feeling worthless/guilty - Maybe yes, but really this is more an honest assessment of myself vs. my peers. And comparably, I am really worthless and it's clearly visible every day at work
- difficult concentrating / being indecisive - Yes with concentration
- having sleep disturbances? No, been sleeping very well
- any fatigue or loss of energy? No, I can still make it to rotations daily
- any weight changes? No, I've maintained the same weight
- have you ever experienced any psychomotor ******ation or agitation? (Maybe a "leaden paralysis"?) No
- Have you ever thought about hurting yourself? Never. I do have thoughts that this life would just end somehow because I am tired of it, but I would never have the courage to pull myself to hurt myself.

This is why doctors make terrible patients. You cannot take an objective look at yourself, especially if you actually are depressed (though I remember someone telling me that depressed patients actually had a more realistic view of their abilities than the 'normal' person... interesting thought concept).

- You are having feelings of worthlessness. That's not normal, and it's certainly different from what you have been feeling, since you clearly were capable enough to get into medical school in the first place.
- You are having difficulty with concentration and memory. Again, not normal, especially for someone in their 20s.
- You stated that you have a lack of motivation. You may have a perfectly normal physical energy level, but you feel lazy. And that's different. Also, being able to make it to rotations every day doesn't necessarily mean anything. I can force myself out of bed at 6 am every morning too. I just end up falling asleep as soon as I get home. I don't function well in the early morning hours.
- You have a passive SI. No active thoughts of hurting yourself or others, but you have felt that it'd be okay if you died. In terms of diagnosing depression, that's the same thing.
- You have a relative who has been diagnosed with depression.

Based on your few posts, it sounds like you have depression. Go see someone. Seriously.

It would be hard to really classify myself as depressed based on this. I am also really afraid of being prescribed an SSRI when I really didn't have depression because of the side effects. I know it produces a sort of trance-like state, and I would have to be on it for most of my life. I had a very close relative who was also diagnosed with depression, was put on SSRIs, but has never really recovered and it devastates me to see them struggle every day and is still struggling today.

SSRIs are not the be-all-end-all of depression treatment. You may be the type of person who benefits from psychotherapy, or ECT, or Wellbutrin. Also, if you were given an SSRI, you don't necessarily have to be on it forever. A lot of people are on them for 6 months to a year, and then are taken off.

Go talk to a psychologist or psychiatrist. When they say you have depression, tell them your concerns for treatment. They're not monsters. They'll work with you to figure out the best course of treatment. And you're not alone in this. There are plenty of medical students who meet the criteria for depression, but are in denial about it. They end up in a worse situation, whether it be threatening harm to others, killing themselves, or just going down in a spiral where they can't succeed. You can get help, though.

And if those of us on this thread urging you to see someone are completely off-base by their expertise, then at least you'll be one step closer to figuring out what's going on and what you can do to make it better or deal with it.

 

[534455]

Go talk to a psychologist or psychiatrist. When they say you have depression, tell them your concerns for treatment.

It's great to see all of the support from most of the posters, some on point and some misguided but well meaning.

Depression is extremely high amongst medical students compared to the overall population.

It is unprofessional and foolish to diagnose someone off of the internet. Dumb, dumb, dumb. So see a professional and let them diagnose you. Before telling us all of your objections to treatment, first let the experts determine what you have. Tx comes later after a few visits. No one is going to cram pills down your throat the minute you walk into their office. The paddle for Electroconvulsive Shock Tx come much later (kidding). SSRIs, SNRIs, MAOs, or just plain old psychotherapy all come after the diagnosis.

You know that what you are doing now is not working for you. So you need to do something differently. Until you do, you will only deteriorate to the point that you might have to drop out of medical school and a job post-medical school.

So here are your two options

1. do nothing and continue to be in the same dark, dark space where you find yourself and get worse
2. take action and address the issue with a professional since you are finding an answer solo


Depression is nothing which should cause you shame.
Doing nothing is another matter.

My opinion: see a psychologist (PhD or PsyD) first. They will advocate psychotherapy, and a good one will assess your for the need of Rxing SSRIs, etc after the fact.

One visit isn't going to kill you
Doing nothing might

best to you buddy

- the Road Less Traveled to MD
http://roadlesstraveledmd.wordpress.com/

 

[FunnyCurrent]

As a disclaimer, I know this is an EXTREMELY odd question to be asking on these forums especially, but I don't know where else to ask this. I guess what I may be looking for is if there are any of your friends, relatives, ex-classmates, etc. who found that med school was not for them? Also, what triggered that, and what did they end up doing?

For my background:

I am a 3rd year who feels like it's been nothing but a struggle for me intellectually to stay in this program. I have never been close to failing anything so far, but that's not to say that things have gone super smooth all the time.

After Step 1 results and the start of these clinical rotations, it's now become VERY apparent to me that I lack the mental capacity to do well in such a profession. There are times when I am trying so hard to learn something (e.g. recently was shown a simple procedure in the OR) and I try to focus, but when I try to perform, I just can't grasp it immediately like everybody else can. I look over at my peers and the 1st year residents, and they pick things up after being shown or taught once, and it's like a simple everyday task for them. When seniors ask us questions, things don't click for me like I see they do for others. I feel like I lag behind my peers in intelligence all the time, like there's just some chunk of my brain involving learning that's missing.

I always heard 3rd year was supposed to be rewarding and exciting. Instead, it's just exposing all my flaws. It's just all the little things that make me notice how I lag behind. Like I have to spend 15 minutes prewriting things in my notebook before I round on a patient because I will forget to look/ask something if I don't. I have to constantly look back at a guide before doing something. This makes me feel so slow. Everyone else just walks in, remembers to do everything, comes out finished and perfect in little or no time.

At first, I thought my passion and such could endure it, but I am starting to realize now that maybe it was all a lie. I admit, it's dangerous for someone as unqualified as me to be practicing on actual patients with only heart and no brains.

I don't know where I'd go if not here, but I think things may start to get worse if I don't change soon.

What did you get on Step1?

 

[michaelrack]

- feeling worthless/guilty - Maybe yes, but really this is more an honest assessment of myself vs. my peers. And comparably, I am really worthless and it's clearly visible every day at work
- difficult concentrating / being indecisive - Yes with concentration
- having sleep disturbances? No, been sleeping very well
- any fatigue or loss of energy? No, I can still make it to rotations daily
- any weight changes? No, I've maintained the same weight
- have you ever experienced any psychomotor ******ation or agitation? (Maybe a "leaden paralysis"?) No
- Have you ever thought about hurting yourself? Never. I do have thoughts that this life would just end somehow because I am tired of it, but I would never have the courage to pull myself to hurt myself.

.

cxc

 

[The kitchen sink]

You're grossly overestimating your peers and the first year residents. Either you go to some school where the students are all top 1% or your peers are NOT learning surgical procedures based on one run through. How the heck would you event tell? No sane school would ever let a medical student actually perform surgery. The residents aren't either picking it up that fast either, BTW, they've been through nearly a year of electives in their chosen field and they're still pretty much clueless and have the more senior residents following them around like sheepdogs to make sure they don't kill anyone.

3rd year is not exciting or rewarding and whoever told you that is a king sized jackass who either is or will be on the administrative staff of a medical school. It's a demoralizing pile of suck, and your surgery rotation is the prize turd. It's also not your fault. You're doing fine. You will get through this.

HAHA, I thoroughly enjoyed that line, thank you for your contribution