How do you "sell" PM&R to med students?

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I am on rotation with several 3rd year medical students who are undecided as to what they want to go into. I'm really excited about PM&R and love to talk about it. Without baiting my own hook, I was wondering what other people tell medical students to entice them to do a rotation and see if PM&R is a good fit.

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I tell them about the kinds of patients I see, what I do for them, how I fit into the "team" and then at the end, let them know about hours and call.
 
I like to give real specific examples of patients who were ill-served by other physician models, but did well because they were exposed to the comprehensive physiatrist approach.

The physiatric model of focusing on function and the interconnectedness of body systems is really radically different than the way most people practice medicine, that most medical students (and physicians, for that matter) don't really get it unless you give them specific examples.
 
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I can email you a lecture on Intro to PMR- I gave this several times as a resident/Chief/Pres of Housestaff/etc.

Good plus some gory. Everybody likes it.
 
rehab_sports_dr,
would you mind posting some examples?

thanks!
 
I like to give real specific examples of patients who were ill-served by other physician models, but did well because they were exposed to the comprehensive physiatrist approach.

The physiatric model of focusing on function and the interconnectedness of body systems is really radically different than the way most people practice medicine, that most medical students (and physicians, for that matter) don't really get it unless you give them specific examples.

That seems to be an nice quick explanation of PM&R.

In terms of giving specific examples could please you provide one?
Thanks in advance.
 
I am on rotation with several 3rd year medical students who are undecided as to what they want to go into. I'm really excited about PM&R and love to talk about it. Without baiting my own hook, I was wondering what other people tell medical students to entice them to do a rotation and see if PM&R is a good fit.

Ask them what specialties they are considering. If they say something like Geriatrics, Peds, Psyche, then talk about inpt rehab, TBI, etc.

If they say something like Ortho, Rads, Gas, Interventional Cards, ER, then talk about sports med, interventional pain/spine, EMG/Ultrasound, etc.
 
Try the "good cop, bad cop" routine.
 
In terms of giving specific examples could please you provide one?
Thanks in advance.[/QUOTE]

Sure. I had a medical student lecture on intro to PM+R the other day, so these are some examples I gave:

1. a figure skater who kept landing on her head and we were managing for TBI from the concussions. I emphasized the importance of asking "why is a 17 year old high level athlete repeatedly falling," and realizing that in addition to her TBI, she also had an S1 radiculopathy

2. a Division I golfer who had low back pain at the thoracolumbar junction. He had 10 MRIs, and everyone was focused on his spine, but when I examined his hips, he had no internal rotation, so he was compensating for lack of hip motion may over-rotating at his spine. we addressed his hip flexibility, and he got better

3. a poly trauma patient who I initially saw for an EMG to account for her gait abnormality. She did indeed have deinnervation potentials in her gluteus maximus. However, she had no loss of functional strength, and we realized that most of her gait abnormality was related to problems focusing because of an unmanaged head injury. We have her working with speech and language pathology to focus on cueing techniques. I would guess that most non-physiatrists don't normally order speech pathology for gait abnormalities, but in her case, I think it's appropriate

4. I have many, many patients who are referred to me at the spine clinic with abnormalities on their spine MRIs, but who's underlying problems are outside the spine, like knee OA, hip OA, rotator cuff tendonopathy, etc.

5. I saw a patient referred for shoulder pain that was attributed to calcific tendonitis, but who actually had Parsonage-Turner syndrome. I think our focus on not just muscle and bone, but also nerve function, helps with making the diagnoses


I think a commonality of all of these patients was the focus on function. Most of medicine is focused on what is the abnormal lab value, what is the abnormality of anatomy, etc. But the real question we should be asking is "what does this patient want to do that they weren't doing before?"

When you ask the question in this way, it forces you to look past something that might seem obvious and get at the real underlying issue.

People don't come to the doctor because they have a HbA1c of 10- they come because they are urinating too much or feel lightheaded.

People don't come to the doctor because they have a spinal canal diameter of less than 8-mm- they come because they have trouble buttoning their shirt

People don't come to the doctor because they have an area of increased calcifcation in their supraspinatus tendon- they come because they had an episode of intense shoulder pain followed by weakness along branches of the brachial plexus

The focus on anatomy or lab values often forces physicians to miss the big picture. I find that asking patients what they would like to be doing, and finding ways to get them there- to me, it is the most satisfying way to practice medicine.
 
The problem is that our lengthy explanations are typically too abstract for most med students, and most certainly the general public.

We need something simple and to the point along the lines of

Cardiologist-Heart Doctor
Orthopedic surgeon-Operates on bones/joints
Neurologist-Brain/Nerve Doctor
Neurosurgeon-Operates on Brain/Cord/Nerve

How about functional anatomy/kinesiology doctor?

Not the best, but we've got to be able to come up with something.

I've always thought "Physical Medicine" doctor was pretty short and to the point, but not many Physiatrists seem to use it. Of course an additional descriptor would be needed for Neurorehab.
 
The problem is that our lengthy explanations are typically too abstract for most med students, and most certainly the general public.

I agree that is a challenge. The AAPM&R has initiatives like the "elevator speech" to help come up with ways to explain what we do

One of my co-residents (I am stealing this from her) liked to sell us as the doctor's who focus on function. I agree that it's a big abstract, and not everyone gets it. But there are certainly many people who when they hear that say - "hey, that's the kind of doctor I've always wanted."

Simiarly, Joel Press talked about his Ride for Rehab across America, and he said that most of the people he met had never heard of a physiatrist, but when he described what he does, people became excited.

Some other key points I think that are valuable when selling yourselves to medical students or other physicians:

1. Point out that we are a mid-sized specialty, and that we graduate more residents yearly than specialties like neurology, opthalmology, and ENT. I think that when people think of us an obscure specialty, it is easy to be dismissive. When they realize that we are actually a pretty sizable specialty, it puts a bit of the onus on them to say "hey, shouldn't I know something about them."

2. Believe in yourself. I remember talking to one physiatrist about how to market physiatry. I offered that we should offer to work in family med and internal medicine offices to manage their spine and MSK problems, so that when they see how well we manage their patients, they will embrace what we can do. This physiatrist said "do you really believe that we can manage those things better than family med docs?" My jaw dropped- this guy is actually pretty well established. Needless to say, physiatrists needs to take pride in what we do.

3. Address colleagues as peers, and not suboridinates. This one is big. So many physiatrists, for example, just join ortho groups. While that can be a good model, in many cases the physiatrist is just seen as a glorified physician extender. Physiatrists need to carry themselves as peers and colleagues and not subordinates. Again, it's hard to sell your specialty if you don't truly believe that you are on the same level as other specialties.

4. Get other physicians as patients. This is probably where I do the best job selling the specialty. People become believers when they can see things first hand.

5. Mentor medical students. Again, people need to see with their eyes. For example, I had a great medical student who is going into ER. He asked me at the beginning of the rotation, very candidly and honestly, why someone should go see a physiatrist for spine pain rather than just go to a PT. The very next patient was a very complicated patient with amyloidosis, z-joint arthropathy, and spinal stenosis. We had an extremely complex differential diagnosis that included amyloid deposition in the kidneys, amyloid related peripheral neuropathy, spinal stenosis, and z-joint mediated pain. I just saw that medical student again (now 4 months later), and he said that patient really stood out as an example of where a physiatrist brings something extra to the table
 
I agree that is a challenge. The AAPM&R has initiatives like the "elevator speech" to help come up with ways to explain what we do.

These are all good ideas. I didn't really like the elevator initiative thing. Half the public is going to think Rehabilitation Medicine means drug rehab.

Some other key points I think that are valuable when selling yourselves to medical students or other physicians:

2. Believe in yourself. I remember talking to one physiatrist about how to market physiatry. I offered that we should offer to work in family med and internal medicine offices to manage their spine and MSK problems, so that when they see how well we manage their patients, they will embrace what we can do. This physiatrist said "do you really believe that we can manage those things better than family med docs?" My jaw dropped- this guy is actually pretty well established. Needless to say, physiatrists needs to take pride in what we do.

I think this would take some adjustment to the structure of your typical residency program. Hundreds of inpt consults are enough to give the most confident doctor a complex.

3. Address colleagues as peers, and not suboridinates. This one is big. So many physiatrists, for example, just join ortho groups. While that can be a good model, in many cases the physiatrist is just seen as a glorified physician extender. Physiatrists need to carry themselves as peers and colleagues and not subordinates. Again, it's hard to sell your specialty if you don't truly believe that you are on the same level as other specialties.

Agree. One of reasons I'm glad that Slipman put out that book Interventional Spine. The improvement in average residency MSK education, CAQ sports med and possible Interventional Spine certification should help raise standards. The surgeon thing is a little tricky though. To get enough patients/procedures (without opiate management which many Physiatrists don't want to do), Physiatrists have to work for surgeons.
There's where being a subordinate comes in. To have any chance at reversing this we've got to go directly to the source (PCPs, or directly to the patients with PPOs). Maybe the academy should narrow their marketing campaign a little. How about sending some of our best to teach some CME for organizations like the AAFP?

4. Get other physicians as patients. This is probably where I do the best job selling the specialty. People become believers when they can see things first hand.

Good idea. Unfortunately I've only had a few. One was referred to the group for post-op pain management and the other was over 90 (doesn't count).

5. Mentor medical students. Again, people need to see with their eyes. For example, I had a great medical student who is going into ER. He asked me at the beginning of the rotation, very candidly and honestly, why someone should go see a physiatrist for spine pain rather than just go to a PT. The very next patient was a very complicated patient with amyloidosis, z-joint arthropathy, and spinal stenosis. We had an extremely complex differential diagnosis that included amyloid deposition in the kidneys, amyloid related peripheral neuropathy, spinal stenosis, and z-joint mediated pain. I just saw that medical student again (now 4 months later), and he said that patient really stood out as an example of where a physiatrist brings something extra to the table.

I think most of our academic departments probably do a pretty poor job of this. Alot of med students use the PM&R rotation as a pre-grad space filler. I have a hard time imagining that MS4s who have done IM sub-Is are going to get much stimulation tailing PM&R PGY-2s around on inpt consults. Requiring a component of outpt clinics would be a good idea (both MSK/Spine/Sports and neurorehab).
 
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"Maybe the academy should narrow their marketing campaign a little. How about sending some of our best to teach some CME for organizations like the AAFP?"

Disciple- that is a BRILLIANT idea. we should really be doing things like that to outreach at their organizations.

I've given outreach lectures on small regional levels (like the state athletic trainer meeting), but I think going to THEIR main meetings is a great idea and should be a focus
 
"Maybe the academy should narrow their marketing campaign a little. How about sending some of our best to teach some CME for organizations like the AAFP?"

Disciple- that is a BRILLIANT idea. we should really be doing things like that to outreach at their organizations.

I've given outreach lectures on small regional levels (like the state athletic trainer meeting), but I think going to THEIR main meetings is a great idea and should be a focus

SO call Joel up and get it started. I gave my lecture (PMR/Pain with a fellow last year at Georgia PCOM, and it went well). Always willing to do more....
 
"Maybe the academy should narrow their marketing campaign a little. How about sending some of our best to teach some CME for organizations like the AAFP?"

Disciple- that is a BRILLIANT idea. we should really be doing things like that to outreach at their organizations.

I've given outreach lectures on small regional levels (like the state athletic trainer meeting), but I think going to THEIR main meetings is a great idea and should be a focus


If you guys are truly interested in that PM me, I know the director of CME for the AAFP (Mindi McKenna), very , very well. I can put you in touch with her.

NF
 
I'm pretty sure we had representation at the AAFP meeting - the Academy sponsored a "satellite" symposium during their meeting for 100-200 interested PCPs about what a physiatrist does and when they should consider referral.

The AAPM&R also sends reps to the AMA meetings and have also sent reps to medical student organization meetings in the past as well.
 
Coming back to the original question...

You "sell" PM&R by marketing it to medical students as a primarily outpatient, procedurally-oriented specialty with "controllable" hours and a good lifestyle. This what medical students want these days!

Remember the "ROAD" specialties--Radiology, Ophthamology, Anesthesiology, and Derm? Perhaps we can make an argument that Anesthesiology--while a great specialty--does have quite a bit of internal strife and competition (CRNA's, AA's, Hawkish Anesthesia Management Groups, etc). Furthermore, some of the happiest docs hi know are Urologists.

So, there needs to be some "stealth" marketing initiatives about the "PROUD" specialties: Physiatry, Radiology, Ophthamology, Urology, and Derm! :laugh:
 
I think you just coined a new acronym.

Unofficial academy slogan: P.R.O.U.D to be a Physiatrist!

Many of the medstudents who apply are in the know. The trick to a more effective marketing campaign?

To do this on a larger scale without blatanty saying it (out in the open anyway), and out of earshot of any old-school Physiatrists.
 
The Dermatologists are very good at limiting the number of positions. Start calling Dermatologists in your town today and see if you can get an appointment within a month, or even 2 months.

They can get away with it, in a way that most fields wouldn't be able to if they attempted the same thing. If Pediatricians tried to prop up their salaries by limiting the supply, then there would be a lot of backlash as many sick kids would die waiting to be seen. There's usually some truth to stereotypes, and the stereotype of Dermatologists having limited medical necessity has considerable truth to it. Most people going to a Dermatologist don't have fast growing, lethal skin cancers. They go because they have annoying rashes or lesions, which are chronic, don't get better, and which they're willing to wait for to be seen and pay money for to have treated.

"Nobody can see if you have hypertension or asthma, but everybody knows if you have a pigmentary disorder and these changes are a lot more obvious and devastating to patients with skin of color," Ms. Singh said. "Having something on your skin is not life or death for people, but it can be equally important for them emotionally as a life-threatening disease."

I'm about to get my match results tomorrow. What I think is funny is that all the people I know in medical school who were big into the "humanism", "patient care", "community service" mumbo jumbo justifying their choice of medicine as a career and who went out of their way to lecture people on the evils of wanting to make money in medicine were the most likely to pick careers like Dermatology, Plastic Surgery, Radiology, and other well earning specialties. One guy I know who went around telling everyone how he wanted to go with his church to a 3rd world country to serve the poor one day, picked Opthalmology, but later decided on surgical specialty when he learned that Opthalmologists don't get paid well enough these days. I might start another thread about this in one of the other sections.
 
Speaking as a 3rd (soon to be 4th) year med student, I think it's tough to publicize physiatry, just because aside from hours, there is still little respect for the field, sort of like dermatology was way back when as cited by the NY Times article. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I get looks from my classmates when I say I'm going into physiatry. Part of that is probably ignorance, but there's still little respect. I think advances in technology, pay, and breakthrough research would be the biggest things to tout for future med students, as those are the things that my friends and other med students are looking at (especially pay and hours). Currently, anything stated as a plus for physiatry could be cited as covered by other fields. Sports medicine? Ortho. Stroke and neurologic disorders? Neuro/Neurosurg. I think getting the word out is important, but having students researching it on their own and seeing how they can mold physiatry to their personal interests would be the only way to attract more students.
 
Speaking as a 3rd (soon to be 4th) year med student, I think it's tough to publicize physiatry, just because aside from hours, there is still little respect for the field, sort of like dermatology was way back when as cited by the NY Times article. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I get looks from my classmates when I say I'm going into physiatry. Part of that is probably ignorance, but there's still little respect. I think advances in technology, pay, and breakthrough research would be the biggest things to tout for future med students, as those are the things that my friends and other med students are looking at (especially pay and hours). Currently, anything stated as a plus for physiatry could be cited as covered by other fields. Sports medicine? Ortho. Stroke and neurologic disorders? Neuro/Neurosurg. I think getting the word out is important, but having students researching it on their own and seeing how they can mold physiatry to their personal interests would be the only way to attract more students.

To enhance exposure, they should try to get PM&R as an available option for required clerkships. PM&R inpatient as an option for Neurology for example, makes a lot of sense. In San Antonio, they let 3rd year students do PM&R for Surgery. While the overlap there is less clear to me, I would still support something like that, because I got a lot more out of PM&R rotations than I did holding a retractor all day.
 
Interesting article about the attractiveness of dermatology for medical school graduates. What can physiatry learn from this?


Besides the obvious? :laugh:

Honesty (in a tactful way) is the best policy.
 
The Dermatologists are very good at limiting the number of positions. Start calling Dermatologists in your town today and see if you can get an appointment within a month, or even 2 months.

They can get away with it, in a way that most fields wouldn't be able to if they attempted the same thing.

In this regard, we're more similar to Derm than people would think. Who would would miss us if Physiatry became extinct? Probably only those who are truly disabled, and from that group only those who have been introduced to Physiatry.

Effective marketing comes first, then a decrease in positions.
 
Speaking as a 3rd (soon to be 4th) year med student, I think it's tough to publicize physiatry, just because aside from hours, there is still little respect for the field, sort of like dermatology was way back when as cited by the NY Times article. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I get looks from my classmates when I say I'm going into physiatry. Part of that is probably ignorance.

Not "part". I'd say "most" at the very least. Ask some of your classmates what they think Physiatrists do. Then tell them what you plan to do (I'm assuming outpt MSK by your screename.) and see what their response is.

I think advances in technology, pay, and breakthrough research would be the biggest things to tout for future med students, as those are the things that my friends and other med students are looking at (especially pay and hours).

Bingo. But again, in a tactful manner.

Currently, anything stated as a plus for physiatry could be cited as covered by other fields. Sports medicine? Ortho. Stroke and neurologic disorders? Neuro/Neurosurg

But which specialty can do all these things? You forget that Physiatry incorporates (or shares) alot of the best parts of other specialties without alot of the hassles e.g. injections but not opiates, EMG for easy diagnoses, now ultrasound, etc. I'd be willing to bet that if Physiatry was better known, more doctors would be angry with us. Think about the term "functional restoration" and how ambiguous it is. As a Physiatrist, this philosophy allows you to assimilate so many different skills in the attempt to "restore function" or prevent functional decline in patients.

You really need to educate/tell medical students about everything the field is about (breadth and depth). The problem is that nobody seems to do this very well, probably because of our identity crisis. Thus, the misconceptions persist (just ran across this thread http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=373399 which seems to illustrate our problems pretty well). As a med student, the only reason I even heard about PM&R was that I had a friend who was doing a rotation, that just happened to be MSK/sports/interventional oriented. Had my med student PM&R elective experience been anything other than what is was, I would likely be a proud contributer to the Anesthesia forum right about now.
 
Speaking as a 3rd (soon to be 4th) year med student, I think it's tough to publicize physiatry, just because aside from hours, there is still little respect for the field, sort of like dermatology was way back when as cited by the NY Times article. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I get looks from my classmates when I say I'm going into physiatry. Part of that is probably ignorance, but there's still little respect.

So, by what you've stated

1. Dermatology had little prestige
2. Pay due to procedural focus increased while hours stayed the same
3. The best/brightest students caught on to this
4. The increased competition for a constant, relatively low number of residency positions raised the prestige of the specialty

It would stand to reason that Physiatry could walk the same path.

The difference is that med-students have always known what a Dermatologist is.

What is a Physiatrist?...which again goes back to our identity crisis. Solve this problem and (theoretically) everything should fall into place.
 
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