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in terms of having to run errands for residents, buying coffee for attendings, running blood to labs...
how does your school protect you from scut work?
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Taking blood to the lab isn't "scut"
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I don't think we have any protection. I just don't know anyone who actually treats students that badly. Some of the paper shuffling stuff is necessary (and helpful to the team), but I've never had anyone send me on personal errands or anything.
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There is no protection, but I have yet to run into a resident or attending who makes students do scutwork.
false.
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Unless a stat test is ordered and the staff is running behind I would say it's scut.
There's no for a med student to do a hospital staff's (non-resident/non attending) job except for 2 reasons:
1) educational, ex - drawing blood
2) staff is behind/super busy, ex - I had no issue transporting patients when no else was available but making students transport patients just for the sake of it is scut
As a student it is your job to learn and help out when possible. It is not a student job's to consistently do a staff member's work.
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Unfortunately I think it just has to be a part of the culture of the institution. No one has ever asked me to get them coffee or anything like that, it would seem really out of place at my school. As far as 'policies' go though I expect students would be very hesitant to report on residents and attendings who will determine their grades and show up throughout their clinical clerkships, especially for something like minor scut.
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I had a resident on OB Gyn send me to buy cake and ice cream (for her I may add- no offer for me to have any)...I almost laughed in her face but then quickly remembered she would be evaluating me. Any other circumstance I would have told her off.
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Did you have to do that during med school? Do you make students do that now? It's scut.
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I've had med students offer to buy me coffee, but I've always declined the offer. Med students have enough to worry about let alone doing ridiculous favors for their residents and attendings.
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When I was doing the overnight shift on trauma, students always picked up dinner for everyone. We were always paid in full, and honestly I was happy to get out of the hospital for 20 minutes during our 30 hour shift. While I was seeing the last bit of sun and enjoying a coke, every else was doing paperwork and their 100th patient admit.
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There's a difference between the chief ordering food for the entire trauma team and having a couple med students pick it up versus a resident ordering you to get coffee.
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that fat bitch
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I absolutely agree, but I know of people who got pissed about it and said it was some violation of school code, blah, blah blah.
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At the orientation for one of my rotations the clerkship director specifically told a medical student that she was not allowed to go get coffee for one specific attending who has repeatedly had students bring him coffee in the past. The clerkship director said she had spoken with the attending and also asked the residents to let her know if the attending asked a medical student to get him coffee.
As for residents I have had more issues with them not wanting to let me do stuff for fear I would think it is scut than them actually scutting me out. I once had an argument with a resident because she needed to do some stuff in the EMR and run some physical prescriptions upstairs before we could go home and I wanted to run the prescriptions upstairs for her (I didn't have access to that part of the EMR).
As for residents I have had more issues with them not wanting to let me do stuff for fear I would think it is scut than them actually scutting me out. I once had an argument with a resident because she needed to do some stuff in the EMR and run some physical prescriptions upstairs before we could go home and I wanted to run the prescriptions upstairs for her (I didn't have access to that part of the EMR).
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I didn't mind doing scut work for my residents, made me feel less useless🙄
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Usually the residents that make you do scut are the ones that are fun to troll on the last few days! I look down on peeps like that and reserve respect for normal residents.
And we are here to learn, not to work a 9-5 job. If 3rd year of med school is a job, 99% of working friends would be envious of 1 hour breaks, doing very little work and mainly rounding, learning lectures, observing, and playing on Iphone...
And we are here to learn, not to work a 9-5 job. If 3rd year of med school is a job, 99% of working friends would be envious of 1 hour breaks, doing very little work and mainly rounding, learning lectures, observing, and playing on Iphone...
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If we need to know information from that blood that will influence management and there is no "porter' or they are god-awful slow, you better believe that isn't scut. Not in the least.
Picking up coffee, making copies, etc. That's scut. Taking care of patients is not.
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Are you all effing kidding me? What else should you be doing instead of taking the blood to the lab, you know helping take care of patients? Routine stuff can go to lab he way it always does, but you'd better not sit around like some sort of entitled princess if I asked you to take the blood to lab now. I have reason I want to the blood to go now and it's NOT scut. I take crap to lab myself often enough when I think I need too, especially when I don't want anyone, including the medical students, the mess up my specimen on the way there.
What is wrong with medical students today? I can see why the PDs complain.
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Thankfully I was nrver asked to do that crap...but can't the resident do that thenselves? I knoe some residents forget we are med STUDENTS lol
Also, the student might screw up or be slow or decide to take their time where the nurse/resident might be faster since its their patient, etc. If I was asked, I would get it over with, sprint down and give it so I can finish scut faster with internal eye rolling. Of course, if the attitude is nice, there is no eye roll but all scut seems to given with a bitchy/mean tone. Same with other scut, ill do it and smile and say nothing but sigh and get it over with instantly.
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I don't know why you would quote me bc we basically agree with each other.
I said I would have a problem with it if a stat test is ordered and it needs to go to the lab now and staff isn't around. That's helping out the patient and the team.
But making a med student take a routine sample instead of letting the staff do their job is scut.
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The resident is busy with other things, things you can't do.
and probably something we need to learn... getting us to do something just to make your day go faster is not the primary reason we are there. if you have 2 tasks, 1 the med student can do and the other the student can't, if you always make them do task A they will never learn task B.
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No tube system for hospital?
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I hope that they realize the alternative would have been staying with the team, and nobody would have gotten food. 🙄
Funny, the former would be scut, and the latter would not be...
And if you can't legally do task B, then you're not going to be allowed to do it. I can't let you dictate my op note or call my attending (while I run the sample to the lab), sorry.
i shouldn't always be there to DO tasks for you. if i cant do task B that doesn't mean i can't watch and learn while you explain it to me. once again, my function at the hospital is not to cut down on the number of tasks for you to do. i am there to learn. i have no problem helping the team out, especially when it gets crazy and of course there are instances such as what you described where it makes very little difference if i am there or not. but having a student do menial work because it is all they are capable of doing is an unacceptable reason. we know we are not capable of doing a lot of things, but we still want to learn them, see you do them and be taught them. that way when we are a resident and are legally able to do them, it will go much smoother.
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Exactly how old are you? If you're a fellow, you're in the same generation as everyone else here. Every once in awhile, it's ok for students to do a menial task in the spirit of patient care and teamwork. But, when it's expected that the student will run the blood to the lab, transport patients or come in an hour before you do to write down overnight labs, there is NO EDUCATIONAL VALUE to any of that. Just because you had to do it as a student or that's the way it's always been doesn't make it right. A student's job isn't to be your personal servant.
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At my school, the trauma service could not run without students. The notes would never get written. It's the students job to write down the vitals and labs on each patients note before the intern sees the patient. Since there are only two residents for 30+ patients, there's no way the all that crap can get done in the morning without the students doing the mindless work of starting the notes. Because of this, the students don't have time to see any patients in the morning. It's very educational...👎
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You guys keep crying about this, but those are educational tasks, even if they are boring. You don't magically become a resident who can interpret trends and single values in labs and vital signs until you've done it hundreds and thousands of times.
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Writing and labs and vitals down, even if they aren't your patients, isn't scut if the census is high. I had no problems doing that so that the interns could see all of their patients and that info is needed at rounds.
It only becomes a problem when you have that bad apple intern that comes 20 mins before rounds and copies the student notes while seeing the patient for 15 seconds
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I feel like scut work is necessary to earn the resident's respect. I have always found that once you do some scut work for residents, they always get right back at you with some mind blowing teaching session.
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I disagree. Half the time the students don't even know who the patients are, and no one asks for their opinion or interpretation of the data. Students aren't examining these patients or even going to the bedside to see what someone with a K of 6 looks like. They just copy the numbers from the computer to the paper. How is this educational? I just don't see it.
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I think med students are just overly whiney. Most of the **** that ppl say are scut, I wouldnt describe as scut.
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NO. I'm with JDH and others on this. You are learning to be physicians. Many things going on at any given time are educational, but it is not usually in the form of a formal or semi-formal talk on a given subject.
1. If the patient is on my service, and the student is on my service, the student better know who the patient is and why they are in the hospital. They might not know everyone's history or little details, but they should have a general idea of who's who and why they are in the hospital and "big events" that have/are going to happen with that patient. They better pay attention on rounds to plans on patients, even if it is not "their" patient; there is likely something educational to be learned, but you have to pay attention. That is an expectation since they are a member of the team. I learned how to replace lytes as a med student by listening on rounds to the lab values and hearing someone say "give them X meq of KCl" for a given value. I learned what the usual work up for certain things were by paying attention to this. My classmates did the same. And the next time we had a patient we were presenting on rounds with similar issues, we would put these things into our plans. Even if we were wrong about some aspect of it, at least we had a plan that had some validity to it.
2. Students who can interpret labs are definitely ahead of their peers, and it will reflect positively on their evaluations. Your job is to learn how to become a physician. Part of that is learning to do what residents do; checking and interpreting labs is certainly part of that. What advantage is there to wait until you are a resident to start paying attention to lab value interpretation? If you're wrong on your interpretation, you can learn from it as a student and no one expects you to be right every time. Much more embarrassing to screw this up as a resident.
3. If a patient is crumping or has a critical issue going on, a student should absolutely be observing what is going on. What is being done to work it up? What physical exam findings are the residents/attendings looking for, what vital signs trends do they watch for? This is critically important to learning medicine and how to be a physician. If a patient has something bad going on and you sit down and do something else because it's not your 'assigned' patient while everyone else is working on the patient, why wouldn't you go watch and/or participate to learn what to do? If you wait for someone to hand you an education on a silver platter, you will miss out on a lot of things in medicine. You might learn something, or get to do something you've never experienced before. When you are a resident, you do not always have others there to walk you through something. Remembering something you experienced/observed as a student may be very helpful to you. If someone has a K of 6.2, what do you do, what meds do you order and at what doses, what does their EKG look like? How quickly do you need to act and re-check their level? You may not know all these answers as a student, but seeing it in action may be helpful for you in the future when you are the one responsible for following through with it.
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Some of the responses in this thread shed quite a lot of light on why so many med students have a problem with the subjective grading the clinical years involve. It's not very hard to just do what's asked of you where patient care is concerned. Quit bitching, and do it.
For what it's worth, I'm with the crowd saying all this vitals running and whatnot is useful (for education and to the team). Besides, what else are you legally capable of doing?
For what it's worth, I'm with the crowd saying all this vitals running and whatnot is useful (for education and to the team). Besides, what else are you legally capable of doing?
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Depends which hospital . . .
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Always?! Take the freaking blood and don't be a douche!
Crap! I can't remember that last time I asked a student to run something to lab for me, but if I ask, I have a reason, one you may not understand, and you better effing do it, or I WILL personally make sure your eval is crap.
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I'm not asking anyone to be a servant! I'm asking someone to take a vial of freaking blood to the lab.
I guess I'm the dick.
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By definition of a lot of these replies, I've been scutted every day. Just today, I went and picked up an 8-part order from Dunkin' Donuts for the office and physician staff. I make copies routinely. I'll change over rooms as we're leaving if we're running behind so we can move patients quicker.
Am I just being courteous or am I getting shafted?
The comment about pre-rounding made me 😆 because there is no way that is scut. C'mon now, coming in an hour early to pre-form notes helps the team and helps you with your note-writing skills. Plus, I'd like to think you're processing what you're writing down and formulating ideas in your head.
Am I just being courteous or am I getting shafted?
The comment about pre-rounding made me 😆 because there is no way that is scut. C'mon now, coming in an hour early to pre-form notes helps the team and helps you with your note-writing skills. Plus, I'd like to think you're processing what you're writing down and formulating ideas in your head.
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You guys are spending way too much time analyzing what is and is not scut. Just ask yourself does this help the team and/or does this help a patient? If the answer is yes to either of those questions then it is your role to do it. Running errands is not appropriate. Getting coffee is borderline and probably ok once in a while especially if they buy you one too. Anything else mentioned here so far are normal and appropriate functions of a medical student. You are expected to function as a member of the team, and it's not all going to be hugely objectively educational. But even the scuttiest of scut is teaching you things like efficiency and triaging, skills which will be invaluable come intern year.
You are really complaining that you have to come in early to look up vitals and write notes? What do you expect -- you show up at 7:30 and the intern presents the patients to you and then you scrub in to surgery? Sorry that's the attending's role.
You are really complaining that you have to come in early to look up vitals and write notes? What do you expect -- you show up at 7:30 and the intern presents the patients to you and then you scrub in to surgery? Sorry that's the attending's role.
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Exactly. I don't learn anything from any REAL scut. I'm like "who is this random person...who I've never seen or heard of? Why can't YOU do it, since it's your job? But fine, I'll do it, get it over with, and forget about it completely." Ex: writing a discharge note on someone I've never seen or heard of...
But, residents don't expect students to do things super urgent or anything. At least, some of my classmates spite the residents by agreeing to do things, but take an hour or decide to eat lunch and then do it...which is not my cup of tea but happens a bit.
The pre-rounding stuff I don't mind. You don't need to think at all to copy down vitals and labs and such. It's not like they are asking to give a reason for why the vitals/labs are that way, unless it's the patient you are following(applying for medicine/peds, I don't think you follow patients in OB/surg, and psych they dont have those vitals/labs)
Also, NOT all rotations have scut or "scut". I never had any scut work in my psych rotation or FM, and the only "scut" in IM was to make a copy once in a while. Surgery is the king of scut, OB/GYN in the middle, and peds only on inpatient
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If you don't know who the patients on your service are, that is your deficiency, not the residents.
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But...do residents really expect you to know random patients that is not yours to follow? At least, that's never happened to me. I only know info on the patients assigned, so that random dude/chick I wrote a note on was all based on computer/chart notes. I didn't learn anything, it was more of "Meh, copy down this stuff so things get done faster and we all can go home"
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Good heavens.
I agree with jdh and the more senior people here. What's the most humorous item to me reading some of these replies by medical students is recalling how often I watched firsthand as the most indigant and entitled M3's and M4's matured into those exact residents who were most abusive of those under them. Mark my words and you'll see it come to pass yourself. Hard work and a good attitude tend to stay with one throughout the course of training and into your professional career. Entitlement and laziness do as well. Be careful of your true reasons for refusing to do or complaining about work placed in your way.
Hell hath no fury like a vested interest masquerading as a moral principle.
Just do your best to try and help the patient, the residents, the attending, the ancillary staff, and your fellow medical students. Preferably in that order. Believe me, when you become a resident you'll realize how good you had it as a student and be tiredly grateful for any aid you get. And when you become an attending you'll realize how good you had it as a resident...
Is it really so demeaning to go and get a cup of coffee for the resident who is caring for thirty patients and has been chronically sleep deprived for two years, grab some dinner for the whole team, look up an article for the attending, or offer your services to those potentially in need?
Is it really so demeaning to take a vial of blood to the lab, pre-note for your seniors, transport a military veteran downstairs to the exit, clean up some blood on the floor, dictate a discharge note on someone you don't know, or help a nurse change a patient's clothes?
Look, I'm not saying that residents are always in the right, and I'm not suggesting that all of the students replying negatively are lazy. I agree that there are many residents and even attendings who are prone to be a bit more abusive than others. I'm just advocating that you keep your eyes on the prize so to speak, endeavor to persevere through mind-numbing and challenging rotations (and personalitites), and be mindful of learning opportunities that are coming your way in a variety of guises.
Now go back out there and do good...or at the least try to do no harm. And good luck.
I agree with jdh and the more senior people here. What's the most humorous item to me reading some of these replies by medical students is recalling how often I watched firsthand as the most indigant and entitled M3's and M4's matured into those exact residents who were most abusive of those under them. Mark my words and you'll see it come to pass yourself. Hard work and a good attitude tend to stay with one throughout the course of training and into your professional career. Entitlement and laziness do as well. Be careful of your true reasons for refusing to do or complaining about work placed in your way.
Hell hath no fury like a vested interest masquerading as a moral principle.
Just do your best to try and help the patient, the residents, the attending, the ancillary staff, and your fellow medical students. Preferably in that order. Believe me, when you become a resident you'll realize how good you had it as a student and be tiredly grateful for any aid you get. And when you become an attending you'll realize how good you had it as a resident...
Is it really so demeaning to go and get a cup of coffee for the resident who is caring for thirty patients and has been chronically sleep deprived for two years, grab some dinner for the whole team, look up an article for the attending, or offer your services to those potentially in need?
Is it really so demeaning to take a vial of blood to the lab, pre-note for your seniors, transport a military veteran downstairs to the exit, clean up some blood on the floor, dictate a discharge note on someone you don't know, or help a nurse change a patient's clothes?
Look, I'm not saying that residents are always in the right, and I'm not suggesting that all of the students replying negatively are lazy. I agree that there are many residents and even attendings who are prone to be a bit more abusive than others. I'm just advocating that you keep your eyes on the prize so to speak, endeavor to persevere through mind-numbing and challenging rotations (and personalitites), and be mindful of learning opportunities that are coming your way in a variety of guises.
Now go back out there and do good...or at the least try to do no harm. And good luck.
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Yes, we expect you to know all the patients on the service, not just the ones assigned to you. You are assigned patients to write notes on and to follow closely. But you should still be paying attention to all of the patients on the service. Aren't you present for rounds, sign out, etc? Take notes on your list. Think about what's going on. You'll notice that's what the residents are doing, and you'll learn a lot more.
Regardless, writing a discharge summary on a patient you don't know at all is still not scut. It should be very educational. It's an opportunity for your to review a chart from presentation to discharge, to study the natural history of a disease, its diagnosis and treatment. Synthesizing those computer and chart notes into a coherent discharge summary should not only teach you about clinical medicine, but also build a skill which will be vital to your practice as a resident. Learning opportunities won't get handed to you on a silver platter. This is what they look like. Take advantage. Going home earlier is just a fringe benefit.
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Oh, boo hoo. The med students take "short call" a few times a month, get most/all weekends off, a few weeks off for Christmas, and now if we get an extra 30 minutes of sleep here and there, it's a travesty to the poor students.
Why aren't you going to the bedside to see the patient? Why aren't you looking at their EKG? Why aren't you offering your interpretation of the data? You're basically admitting that you're not very proactive here.
Are you also mad that the chief resident shows up an hour after that, and the attending an hour after that? Give them a piece of your mind.
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Why not? When we all round together on all of the patients, pay attention to everyone. Unless you plan to only treat patients with diabetes but not those with hypertension, then there's something to learn from a variety of patients on a given service.
When you're a resident, you'll be rounding on a lot of patients you don't know. For Thanksgiving weekend (which I'll be working every day of that weekend, while the students have a 4 day weekend), I'll be rounding on all of my patients and all of the patients on another service. I don't know any of them, and I'll be picking it up on the fly as we round.
You could practice that sort of thing as a student, or you can be "that resident" who just doesn't get it.
