How easy should college be?

[bob123456]

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Whoa, nelly. Some of those small colleges will cut your heart and eat it too. Try maintaining a 4.0 at Swarthmore or something like that, and you'll likely come out with a big FAIL. And at the same time, some of the Ivy League is infamous for their grade inflation (Penn is not one of those schools, so I'm not putting Penn down at all. They do tend to be one of the harder graders, along with places like Berkeley).

Haha, I knew I should have qualified that statement. I definitely didn't mean the top liberal arts schools, since I've heard that they are some of the most competitive in the country. I was talking about the small schools that most people usually haven't heard of and that are primarily attended by in state students.

 

[dienekes88]

Whoa, nelly. Some of those small colleges will cut your heart and eat it too. Try maintaining a 4.0 at Swarthmore or something like that, and you'll likely come out with a big FAIL. And at the same time, some of the Ivy League is infamous for their grade inflation (Penn is not one of those schools, so I'm not putting Penn down at all. They do tend to be one of the harder graders, along with places like Berkeley).

Ouch. Stop the hate, dude.

Try getting a 4.0 at Yale or Princeton. "You'll likely come out with a big FAIL."

Wherever you go, you're going to have to work hard to get a 4.0. I bet it's even the case at a small college in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Lokhtar]

Ouch. Stop the hate, dude.

I'm not hating at all. Grade inflation at ivy league school like Yale is a well documented phenomena, I am not making it up. I wish my school had grade inflation like that....

Registrar John Meeske, JE '74, acknowledged that the majority of grades given to Yale students are relatively high. In 1981, 43 percent of the grades given were A's, and 37 percent were B's. According to Meeske, no information on recent grade distribution is available. He did say that grade inflation has increased since 1981 and that the number of C's has decreased.

So I don't think its 'FAIL' at all, when talking about a 4.0 there 🙂. Penn has no grade inflation, and neither do the top liberal arts school (though there might be some exceptions).

 

[dienekes88]

I'm not hating at all. Grade inflation at ivy league school like Yale is a well documented phenomena, I am not making it up. I wish my school had grade inflation like that....


So I don't think its 'FAIL' at all, when talking about a 4.0 there 🙂. Penn has no grade inflation, and neither do the top liberal arts school (though there might be some exceptions).

Good thing you quoted a figure from 1981.

Ha. I guess my crappy 3.56 at a school that gives out 4.0s like candy meant I shouldn't have gotten in anywhere.

Edit: Well, I guess I only got into Columbia and UMass, so I didn't really get into many schools. I blame it on a late app, though... rather than a crappy GPA.

 

[bob123456]

Registrar John Meeske, JE '74, acknowledged that the majority of grades given to Yale students are relatively high. In 1981, 43 percent of the grades given were A's, and 37 percent were B's. According to Meeske, no information on recent grade distribution is available. He did say that grade inflation has increased since 1981 and that the number of C's has decreased.

Damn, I wish I had gotten into Yale so I that would have a few less C's on my transcript if inflation is still rampant like that there.

 

[dienekes88]

Damn, I wish I had gotten into Yale so I that would have a few less C's on my transcript if inflation is still rampant like that there.

I really don't think it is...

 

[Lokhtar]

Good thing you quoted a figure from 1981.

The article was from the mid nineties, saying how the situation was even worse than it was in 1981.

Ha. I guess my crappy 3.56 at a school that gives out 4.0s like candy meant I shouldn't have gotten in anywhere.

That's the whole point though, isn't it? Its a bit unfair to people who come from schools with virtually no inflation to compete with schools that hand out As much easily? The Adcoms don't know what inflation exists in what department across the thousand universities across the nation, so they treat it on a relatively equal scale, where it clearly isn't.

My school had low grade inflation, Swarthmore has pretty much no grade inflation. Penn (from what I gather) also has low grade inflation, same with Berkley. While Stanford is known for higher grade inflation.

No one is denigrating your achievements. But if you think all universities have a similar level of grade inflation, you're kidding yourself. I've taken classes at four universities, and there is a huge difference even from my very small anecdotal experience. Generally, the reputation of the university does not correlate with the amount of grade inflation. Some 'low tier' colleges have no grade inflation while others have very high. Same thing happens at the 'top tier' colleges.

You think my article was old? How about this - from 2006.

The median GPA being 3.6-3.7 certainly points to grade inflation. Again, I am not knocking your school, cause I'd trade my diploma for yours in a second.

Unlike Princeton and Harvard, which release data on grade distribution annually, Yale has not done so for 25 years. But an online survey of graduates from the Class of 2006, conducted by the News last week, suggests that the median grade-point average at graduation fell between 3.6 and 3.7 last year. Less than 5 percent of the 201 respondents to the poll reported a GPA lower than 3.0.

Jonathan Bittner '07, who wrote a paper about grade inflation for an English class, said he was surprised that the median was so high, but not by the dearth of GPAs below 3.0.
"Most people think the GPA scale goes from 3.0 to 4.0," he said.

At Princeton, administrators took an aggressive approach to quelling inflation by setting a target of 35 percent A-plus, A and A-minus grades for courses in every academic department. When the system was first implemented in the 2004-'05 academic year, A-range grades declined to 40.9 percent from 46 percent in 2003-'04.

Of course, they do mention that sciences at Yale have lower averages, but we don't know how much lower:

Some students said they believe grading at Yale is inconsistent, especially between humanities and science departments. In fall 2004, the University's Science Council engaged in an informal review of grading across different courses in the sciences, which found that grades tend to be lower in the sciences than they are in the humanities and social sciences.

 

[dienekes88]

The article was from the mid nineties, saying how the situation was even worse than it was in 1981.

That's the whole point though, isn't it? Its a bit unfair to people who come from schools with virtually no inflation to compete with schools that hand out As much easily? The Adcoms don't know what inflation exists in what department across the thousand universities across the nation, so they treat it on a relatively equal scale, where it clearly isn't.

I might be beating a dead horse, but to some extent that's supposed to be the point of the MCAT. On top of that, I don't think they treat GPAs equally. Adcoms can look at historical trends from a school. They know the GPA-range that would be considered good at each school (I know that at Dartmouth each reader goes through the same set of colleges every year). When you apply, they're going to compare your grades to everyone who has applied to their school from your school and then they'll figure it into the grand mysterious calculus that may involve comparing you to someone else from a different university. By then, though... I'm guessing they have already determined if your GPA is good considering your school.

The same thing happens in college apps. Schools like Andover and Exeter get to share one application reader while collections of states will be lumped together for another reader.

My school had low grade inflation, Swarthmore has pretty much no grade inflation. Penn (from what I gather) also has low grade inflation, same with Berkley. While Stanford is known for higher grade inflation.

No one is denigrating your achievements. But if you think all universities have a similar level of grade inflation, you're kidding yourself. I've taken classes at four universities, and there is a huge difference even from my very small anecdotal experience. Generally, the reputation of the university does not correlate with the amount of grade inflation. Some 'low tier' colleges have no grade inflation while others have very high. Same thing happens at the 'top tier' colleges.

I'm not saying that they all have similar levels of grade inflation. That would be ridiculous. I'm saying that comparing GPAs among schools is impossible. Something like the LizzyM score might be used, but it's tempered by the Adcom's experience with a school.

Don't worry, I don't feel like you're denigrating my education. People who do that usually say, "hey man, I went to Southern Conn, and I probably got just as good an education as you did and paid less than half the tuition." No joke, this has happened to me several times.

You think my article was old? How about this - from 2006.

The median GPA being 3.6-3.7 certainly points to grade inflation. Again, I am not knocking your school, cause I'd trade my diploma for yours in a second.

Of course, they do mention that sciences at Yale have lower averages, but we don't know how much lower:

However, that's 201 out of 400 respondents. Why would nearly 200 people avoid responding? Maybe because they have lower GPAs? It's like saying MDapps is a fair and balanced view of what GPAs and MCATs get into what schools. Sampling error: bias.

 

[dienekes88]

By the way, thanks for keeping it civil. Sometimes things can get heated when people talk about school rep and grade inflation.

 

[Lokhtar]

I might be beating a dead horse, but to some extent that's supposed to be the point of the MCAT.

It is. However, this is not like Law School, where LSAT count for 80% of your application and GPA for 20%. Here GPA counts for more.

On top of that, I don't think they treat GPAs equally. Adcoms can look at historical trends from a school. They know the GPA-range that would be considered good at each school (I know that at Dartmouth each reader goes through the same set of colleges every year).

In an ideal world - they would. But they need to sort out 10,000 application.

I'm not saying that they all have similar levels of grade inflation. That would be ridiculous. I'm saying that comparing GPAs among schools is impossible. Something like the LizzyM score might be used, but it's tempered by the Adcom's experience with a school.

Again, its impossible to look through the sheer number of applications recieved. 3.35 at Swarthmore is harder than a 3.6 at my school, but guess which guy is getting the secondary?

However, that's 201 out of 400 respondents. Why would nearly 200 people avoid responding? Maybe because they have lower GPAs? It's like saying MDapps is a fair and balanced view of what GPAs and MCATs get into what schools. Sampling error: bias.

Perhaps, but the faculty and administrators have admitted that there is a problem. Again I'm not picking your school out - it is a problem at MANY schools.

 

[dienekes88]

OP, sorry we took over your thread.

It is. However, this is not like Law School, where LSAT count for 80% of your application and GPA for 20%. Here GPA counts for more.

True.

In an ideal world - they would. But they need to sort out 10,000 application.

Again, its impossible to look through the sheer number of applications recieved. 3.35 at Swarthmore is harder than a 3.6 at my school, but guess which guy is getting the secondary?

As far as I know, most schools don't have a firm "cut off." We'd have to defer to people more experienced with adcoms. Until we can get an Adcom member to weigh in, I'll throw out my opinion. I don't even think it has to be an ideal world for a reader/scanner to look at the name of the school after looking at the GPA and MCAT. Saying that the reader/scanner doesn't do this is tantamount to hypothesizing that the name of your school doesn't matter. Unfortunately, it does to some extent.

Unless of course... the assignment of secondaries at some schools is algorithmic (in which case a computer would send them out) and devoid of human input.

I would guess that both guys would get the secondary, and they'd be sorted later on. A quick look at MDapps shows a lot of people getting interviews with less than a 3.3... and (going by random sample) most got secondaries from almost all of the schools they listed in their primary app.

Perhaps, but the faculty and administrators have admitted that there is a problem. Again I'm not picking your school out - it is a problem at MANY schools.

I have to say that you made it seem like a problem restricted to a couple ivy league schools.

According to the article, faculty and administrators don't necessarily see it as a problem today. It does mention that they might've seen a problem with it in 1981, and the Yale Herald article talks about 1995 - 13 years have passed since then. In that time there has been a changing of the guard. Are grades as inflated as they were back then? I don't know. I only have a small sampling of grades (my own and a few other peoples' - they told me their grades for some reason... I would never ask).

Dean Salovey says that the grades assigned are defensible. He doesn't say anything about the existence of grade inflation.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I just think you're trying to compare apples and oranges (Yale vs. Case Western vs. Stanford vs. Swarthmore vs. Southern Conn.). Adcoms know that different schools hand out grades differently.

 

[Lokhtar]

As far as I know, most schools don't have a firm "cut off." We'd have to defer to people more experienced with adcoms. Until we can get an Adcom member to weigh in, I'll throw out my opinion. I don't even think it has to be an ideal world for a reader/scanner to look at the name of the school after looking at the GPA and MCAT.

But you know, a lot of schools want a high GPA/MCAT average too. Even if they intellectually know that a 3.2 from Swarthmore is better than 3.6 from X, are they going to give the interview to the 3.2?

I will say that you made it seem like a problem restricted to a couple ivy league schools.

Only because thats what the discussion was about. I've taken classes at a state school where doing slightly more than breathing gets you an A. And I've taken classes at Penn where people busted their *** and thanked the heavens for a B-.

 

[dienekes88]

Dang. You responded before I finished editing my post to add a point about school rep.

But you know, a lot of schools want a high GPA/MCAT average too. Even if they intellectually know that a 3.2 from Swarthmore is better than 3.6 from X, are they going to give the interview to the 3.2?

True, and I guess we can blame that on US News.

However, one student - 0.67% of the matriculants' average GPA - isn't going to make a huge difference.

Only because thats what the discussion was about. I've taken classes at a state school where doing slightly more than breathing gets you an A. And I've taken classes at Penn where people busted their *** and thanked the heavens for a B-.

Well... that might not even be grade inflation. It might just be the level of the class and the competition you were facing.

Anyway, my original point was that we should never write off anyone's grades. Be it a 4.0 at a small college in Arkansas, a 3.89 at HYP, or a 3.6 at Swarthmore or Amherst... they probably all worked VERY hard and will get a chance in front of the committee.

 

[Lokhtar]

However, one student - 0.67% of the matriculants' average GPA - isn't going to make a huge difference.

Well, if it was only one school that did it - it wouldn't really be a problem.

Well... that might not even be grade inflation. It might just be the level of the class and the competition you were facing.

In many cases, its departmental policy to have the average set to a C+.

Anyway, my original point was that we should never write off anyone's grades. Be it a 4.0 at a small college in Arkansas, a 3.89 at HYP, or a 3.6 at Swarthmore or Amherst... they probably all worked VERY hard and will get a chance in front of the committee.

Not writing anyone off, but if I had a choice, I'd certainly choose a school with very high grade inflation over ones like Berkley or Penn, if my goal was Med school or something like that.

 

[dienekes88]

Not writing anyone off, but if I had a choice, I'd certainly choose a school with very high grade inflation over ones like Berkley or Penn, if my goal was Med school or something like that.

I think you'd further improve your chances if you totally forgot about the grade inflation and just went to Harvard or Yale. These two schools constitute more than 20% of P&S' classes of 2010 and 2011. I'll admit that it's a very small sample and it's just one med school, but the figure is kinda ridiculous.

 

[dienekes88]

Whoa. Do I sound like a major a**hole? I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying it happens. If we're looking at what's going to get you into med school... a 4.0 at Harvard with a 38+ MCAT will get you in everywhere unless you're a convicted felon. Even then, you could probably get into most schools.

 

[redlight]

In regards to the national score data for 2007, the mean was 25 and the median looks like about 26 for all exam takers, so I still think Penn test takers did pretty damn well. http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/combined07.pdf

oh, well i was getting my data from here:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2007/2007mcatgpa.htm

i wish i had my msar book to double check, but i left it at home..

 

[redlight]

The Adcoms don't know what inflation exists in what department across the thousand universities across the nation, so they treat it on a relatively equal scale, where it clearly isn't.

im not so sure about this. some schools are known for certain departments and adcoms know which schools have grade inflation, so i think it follows that they would also know the tough and easy majors/departments in most schools-certainly in the well-known schools. i dont know how, or if, they compensate gpa for people in tougher schools but im sure they are not ignorant and unaware of grade inflation in certain departments..

 

[Lokhtar]

I think you'd further improve your chances if you totally forgot about the grade inflation and just went to Harvard or Yale. These two schools constitute more than 20% of P&S' classes of 2010 and 2011. I'll admit that it's a very small sample and it's just one med school, but the figure is kinda ridiculous.

Well of course.

 

[redlight]

I think you'd further improve your chances if you totally forgot about the grade inflation and just went to Harvard or Yale. These two schools constitute more than 20% of P&S' classes of 2010 and 2011. I'll admit that it's a very small sample and it's just one med school, but the figure is kinda ridiculous.

imo, all med schools want applicants from brand name colleges. i sat in on a umdnj talk at my school and the lady displayed the different colleges the current M1 students hail from. a good chunk (don't remember the specifics, i think it was over 25%) were from ivy league and hopkins. lol she seemed very proud of this.

 

[Esviel]

wait a minute....so is grade inflation good for medschool apps or not?

haha, and since Penn doesn't have it, then i guess there'll be no easy A's for me......damn, this sucks. i think that i'm going to have to do something over the summer to better prepare. brush up on my reasoning/math skills or something. all this grade inflation/curve business scares the hell outta me.

 

[trinitee501]

Thank you all for your great advice!

So basically, what I'm gathering is that the general consensus is to take the minimum credit hours necessary during my first semester, and take the easiest courses/professors.

Now, don't get me wrong, I by no means intend to skate through college, but I want to minimize my study time so that I can devote as much time as possible to research/volunteer/extracurricular activities (and maybe get some partying in there every once in a while too hahaha). Taking only 12-15 hours sounds like a good plan.

I have no clue what the hell I want to major in. Another thing that factors into what I major in is the fact that Penn groups people together in dorms based on their major. If I major in something like biology or chemistry and am housed with a bunch of other premeds, what will life be like as opposed to me being the only premed living around other English majors? Are humanities majors easier than science majors? I'm the type of guy who can bull**** an epic paper hours before its due, btw....but this is highschool hahaha, i might not be able to get away with it in college.

And biology.....well it was so ridiculously easy the first time around that i didn't even bother to take the AP (had to choose either ap bio or ap chem) because all it was was reading the chapter and remembering what happened.....i might as well have been reading a novel but with a bunch of scientific vocab words lol. Bio tests were not too much more than reading comprehension tests. What's college bio like?

Oh, and another thing: I take AP Chemistry now, and I'm pretty confident that I am going to get a 5 on the AP test....now, if I do get a 5, then will I automatically get college credit for it or do I have the option to choose whether to apply that credit? I ask this because I hear that med schools do not take AP credit as a replacement for the prerequisites, so If I were to take the Chem AP test, then how would I fill the prerequisite in college? Take a higher level chemistry class? And if that is the case, will that be desirable? Or should I just not even take the chem AP test at all and re-take general chemistry (basically guaranteeing me an A)? I mean, I want to take the AP test because i feel like i have to prove that i can score well on college level stuff but i just don't want it to actually count for anything.

And I don't know if there's a major greek presence at penn but if so, and I joined, would it significantly cut into my research/extracurricular/volunteer time? And even if it did so a little bit, will the party time I gain be worth it?

COME TO SCHOLAR'S WEEKEND!! Talk to a premed, since I am senior and almost out I will volunteer all of my underclassmen friends.

Things you should know:
Pre med @Penn is hard
Don't live around English majors ( you will become jealous of their 3 day weekends) whilst freshman Bioengineers make you feel better about your decision. MISERY LIKES SOMEONE WHO SUFFERS MORE.
You don't have to live with anyone you don't want to. I loved Hill my first year and others loved Dubois/Kings Court.

Make friends quickly...they help to balance the BS
Premed @ Penn is hard, not only because being pre med is hard, or that your classmates are ridiculously gifted but because you will work and you will be reminded every day that with all this time/energy/blood etc you could've made so much more as an Investment Banker

 

[redlight]

wait a minute....so is grade inflation good for medschool apps or not?

grade inflation is not good. if you have a 3.7 and the median gpa for your class (i.e. upenn'12) is a 3.6, your 3.7 is no longer that impressive. i don't know how many pre-med committees report class statistics like gpa, though.

 

[MichaelG17]

Sorry kid, but the party is over. I study about 4-5 nights before a major exam in one of the science classes that I'm taking this semester (bio2, organic chemistry, physics2). It's going well for me (looking at a 4.0 this semester). but you are going to have to make sacrifices if you are a serious pre-med student. Good Luck