HOw hard is it to get ENT???

[berkeleyboy]

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I know this has prolly been killed to death, but how hard is it to get otorhinolaryngology? Is it harder than plastics or about the same?
Any links or thoughts on this matter would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Berk

 

[doc05]

it's very tough. based on match rate, it's "easier" than plastics. It's nonetheless more competitive than every other surgical field.

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

You won't find anything that's harder to get than plastics. The only one close as I recall is radiation oncology. The only upside for those of us applying is that one can go through GS. Still not a great option, but a backup none-the-less.


IIRC the match rate for ENT is around 70%.. About the same as other competitive fields like Uro, derm, and radiology.

 

[berkeleyboy]

You won't find anything that's harder to get than plastics. The only one close as I recall is radiation oncology. The only upside for those of us applying is that one can go through GS. Still not a great option, but a backup none-the-less.


IIRC the match rate for ENT is around 70%.. About the same as other competitive fields like Uro, derm, and radiology.

Thanks for the info guys. Its much appreciated. 70% match sounds like pretty good odds to me. What exactly is IIRC?

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

If I Recall Correctly


Good luck to ya 👍

 

[njbmd]

I know this has prolly been killed to death, but how hard is it to get otorhinolaryngology? Is it harder than plastics or about the same?
Any links or thoughts on this matter would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Berk

Hi there,
For ENT, start making your contacts early with people in the field and programs of interest. For successful matching in this small specialty, besides the grades and board scores, you need to have good. Sometimes a well-placed phone call from an ENT surgeon who knows you well can break the tie or place you further up on a department's rank list. If your school does not have a strong ENT department, make contact with an ENT surgeon at another institution that does.If your grades a bit marginal, you should opt for some research and present it at a national meeting.

The same can be said for Plastics though you can do a Plastics fellowship after General Surgery too. By going the fellowship route, you need to be sure that you ace the ABSITE every year (easier said than done for some people).

njbmd 🙂

 

[maxheadroom]

The rules for any surgical subspecialty, plus derm, are to do as well as possible. Don't blow anything off. Make contacts with the department early. Go to some of their teaching conferences on a regular basis. Get involved in research. Scrub cases whenever possible, (even if you aren't on the service).

Early involvement does lots of things for you. First, it helps you to know more about the specialty. It helps you to learn the basics. It teaches you the lingo, so you know what they're talking about. People also notice when an M1/M2 shows up for early morning conference. You won't just be that random kid on the service, you'll be the kid on the service that they see all the time.

Some people may call this "gunner" behavior, but chance favors the prepared mind. The earlier you have exposure to them and them to you, but better your chances.

 

[Radpimp]

Just to point out....Even with a 70% match rate , there is alot of self selection going on. In most competitive specialties, students are discouraged by their medical advisors to not apply in order to prevent going unmatched. ENT had a 70% match rate but at the same time the average unmatched was 222. The applicant pool average was probably in the 230s. On the other hand, there are many routes into Plastics either integrated or fellowship based. A majority of students who want to do plastics will apply to general surgery at the same time. A good number of these students are no where close to being competitive for plastics but threw their name in the applicant pool anyways as if they go unmatched, they can try to general surgery to the fellowship route. It is alot more complicated than strictly looking at the match rate percentage to assess "competitiveness" in any specialty.

 

[berkeleyboy]

Hey thanks everyone for the quick replies. I'm actually about to start my 3rd year rotations at a new school. I used to go to a wonderful caribbean school but successfully transfered out to an LCME accredited school without any time being lost. Now that more options are open to me...I've been looking at the various specialties that were once closed to me and now open. I'm not fortunate enough to have made any contacts during my M1 and M2 years since I have now changed schools. So whats the best approach for a newly transfered M3 who wants ENT as a possible specialty?

Thanks again guys for the great info. It is very much appreciated. I never looked into these competitive fields before, but now that lady luck has shown her face to me, I might as well not close any doors.

Berk 🙂

 

[Ergo]

You can start being interested at the beginning of third year without being behind the curve.
1. Just go up there make an appointment with the program director to talk about your interest in ENT.
2. Tell any who asks that you have good grades and are excited about getting involved in research.
3. Step 1 > 225 minimum, Step 1>230 is ok, Step 1>235 is good. If>240 competitive.
4. Schedule your elective in ENT, then schedule the Christmas block in ENT research. Work your ass off during those two months. Write anything that is offered, but get it submitted by spring. Continually offer to help people in the department finish any projects or write any papers. Sometimes you will be surprised when a bone gets thrown your way.
3. Regularly get their clinic/call schedule from their department secretary"coordinator" and then on days off during third year scrub in on cases and take call with residents.
4. Read the relevant chapter in "ENT secrets" and KNOW the anatomy before any cases. You will be expected to know the anatomy at least!
5. Dont be a kiss ass. Be confident, friendly and prepared.
6. Never say anything negative about anyone; you never know who is friends with who, and it just looks unprofessional.
7. Fourth year, do your first month as another ENT elective, second as an ENT away rotation somewhere you might like to go that has well known letter writer. Take third month for Step2 and try to do better than step 1.

 

[berkeleyboy]

You can start being interested at the beginning of third year without being behind the curve.
1. Just go up there make an appointment with the program director to talk about your interest in ENT.
2. Tell any who asks that you have good grades and are excited about getting involved in research.
3. Step 1 > 225 minimum, Step 1>230 is ok, Step 1>235 is good. If>240 competitive.
4. Schedule your elective in ENT, then schedule the Christmas block in ENT research. Work your ass off during those two months. Write anything that is offered, but get it submitted by spring. Continually offer to help people in the department finish any projects or write any papers. Sometimes you will be surprised when a bone gets thrown your way.
3. Regularly get their clinic/call schedule from their department secretary"coordinator" and then on days off during third year scrub in on cases and take call with residents.
4. Read the relevant chapter in "ENT secrets" and KNOW the anatomy before any cases. You will be expected to know the anatomy at least!
5. Dont be a kiss ass. Be confident, friendly and prepared.
6. Never say anything negative about anyone; you never know who is friends with who, and it just looks unprofessional.
7. Fourth year, do your first month as another ENT elective, second as an ENT away rotation somewhere you might like to go that has well known letter writer. Take third month for Step2 and try to do better than step 1.

Wow, thanks ergo. Sounds like a plan. I'm going to try to stick to your 7 rules and see where that takes me. Thanks again buddy. I really appreciate it!!

Berk 😎

 

[Ergo]

"Happy to help!" 😉

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Good advice.

To further elaborate on Points 1 and 2, you can show your PDs that you are interested in ENT and furthermore are interested in a certain aspect of ENT for research. You don't have to have career goals in mind or know what you want to study, but you'll generate more interest in you as a candidate if you say you're interested in ENT and was wondering if so-and-so had any cancer research/cochlear implant research/etc. going on that you could participate in. NEVER say you're uninterested in a particular aspect of ENT.

Agree with point 3. Solid.

As for point "7," I would say that if you have scored above 235 on Step I, consider taking Step II after the match. Very few are interested in your Step II score unless you have low Step I scores.

The rest of the points are right-on.

Good luck.

You can start being interested at the beginning of third year without being behind the curve.
1. Just go up there make an appointment with the program director to talk about your interest in ENT.
2. Tell any who asks that you have good grades and are excited about getting involved in research.
3. Step 1 > 225 minimum, Step 1>230 is ok, Step 1>235 is good. If>240 competitive.
4. Schedule your elective in ENT, then schedule the Christmas block in ENT research. Work your ass off during those two months. Write anything that is offered, but get it submitted by spring. Continually offer to help people in the department finish any projects or write any papers. Sometimes you will be surprised when a bone gets thrown your way.
3. Regularly get their clinic/call schedule from their department secretary"coordinator" and then on days off during third year scrub in on cases and take call with residents.
4. Read the relevant chapter in "ENT secrets" and KNOW the anatomy before any cases. You will be expected to know the anatomy at least!
5. Dont be a kiss ass. Be confident, friendly and prepared.
6. Never say anything negative about anyone; you never know who is friends with who, and it just looks unprofessional.
7. Fourth year, do your first month as another ENT elective, second as an ENT away rotation somewhere you might like to go that has well known letter writer. Take third month for Step2 and try to do better than step 1.

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

You can start being interested at the beginning of third year without being behind the curve.
1. Just go up there make an appointment with the program director to talk about your interest in ENT.
2. Tell any who asks that you have good grades and are excited about getting involved in research.
3. Step 1 > 225 minimum, Step 1>230 is ok, Step 1>235 is good. If>240 competitive.
4. Schedule your elective in ENT, then schedule the Christmas block in ENT research. Work your ass off during those two months. Write anything that is offered, but get it submitted by spring. Continually offer to help people in the department finish any projects or write any papers. Sometimes you will be surprised when a bone gets thrown your way.
3. Regularly get their clinic/call schedule from their department secretary"coordinator" and then on days off during third year scrub in on cases and take call with residents.
4. Read the relevant chapter in "ENT secrets" and KNOW the anatomy before any cases. You will be expected to know the anatomy at least!
5. Dont be a kiss ass. Be confident, friendly and prepared.
6. Never say anything negative about anyone; you never know who is friends with who, and it just looks unprofessional.
7. Fourth year, do your first month as another ENT elective, second as an ENT away rotation somewhere you might like to go that has well known letter writer. Take third month for Step2 and try to do better than step 1.

I second everything you wrote.

ENT Secrets is THE book for the ENT wannabe's. I read the entire book before I did my ENT electives. That book and knowing the anatomy are great points.

I also was able to find Bailey's on CD. A person coould have easily burned it and been able to read up on the surgery cases/lecture topics for the next day in a little more detail than ENT Secrets. But I didn't do that cause its illegal. 😉 I am not saying you should start reading Bailey's as a student but it never hurts to know as much as you can especially when you need to shine.

 

[berkeleyboy]

Good advice.

To further elaborate on Points 1 and 2, you can show your PDs that you are interested in ENT and furthermore are interested in a certain aspect of ENT for research. You don't have to have career goals in mind or know what you want to study, but you'll generate more interest in you as a candidate if you say you're interested in ENT and was wondering if so-and-so had any cancer research/cochlear implant research/etc. going on that you could participate in. NEVER say you're uninterested in a particular aspect of ENT.

Agree with point 3. Solid.

As for point "7," I would say that if you have scored above 235 on Step I, consider taking Step II after the match. Very few are interested in your Step II score unless you have low Step I scores.

The rest of the points are right-on.

Good luck.

Thanks for the advice to everyone whos written to me about this subject. I'm taking it to heart. Can you elaborate a little more on not taking step 2 untill after the match? I never have considered this an option but if it sounds promising than I'll do it.

 

[cchoukal]

yeah, the 70% is a little misleading, d/t self-selection. 70% may be the actual figure, but the total # of spots is around 250, and I believe in 2004, about 330 people actually submitted rank lists. The mean step 1 score of those who applied but didn't match in ENT was around 220. I believe the mean of those who matched was closer to 240. These #'s used to be available on the sfmatch website, but now that ENT is an NRMP field, I'm not sure where you get the accurate data. As someone who interviewed in ENT and later decided to withdraw to pursue a different field, it seemed like programs were interested in what was said about you. In other words, yes, you need a 240, research, great grades, and AOA really helps, but beyond that, they really want good, good letters and really stellar evaluations from the scope of rotations, not just your ENT rotations. Most of the interviews were somewhat informal, as well, suggesting that they were particularly interested in figuring out whether or not you're a tool (which may or may not come out in letters). So, to quote a department chair, you really just have to be excellent all the time.

 

[berkeleyboy]

yeah, the 70% is a little misleading, d/t self-selection. 70% may be the actual figure, but the total # of spots is around 250, and I believe in 2004, about 330 people actually submitted rank lists. The mean step 1 score of those who applied but didn't match in ENT was around 220. I believe the mean of those who matched was closer to 240. These #'s used to be available on the sfmatch website, but now that ENT is an NRMP field, I'm not sure where you get the accurate data. As someone who interviewed in ENT and later decided to withdraw to pursue a different field, it seemed like programs were interested in what was said about you. In other words, yes, you need a 240, research, great grades, and AOA really helps, but beyond that, they really want good, good letters and really stellar evaluations from the scope of rotations, not just your ENT rotations. Most of the interviews were somewhat informal, as well, suggesting that they were particularly interested in figuring out whether or not you're a tool (which may or may not come out in letters). So, to quote a department chair, you really just have to be excellent all the time.

Thanks again for the excellent info!

Berk

 

[docmo]

Hi guys,

Does anyone know if an FMG (i think thats what they call us 😕,,, non US citizen graduated from abroad ) has any chance of getting into an ENT residency?

im currently in my last year,, will hopefully be going for the 2007 match, meanwhile i might try to get into some research programs..

would be very grateful for any input...

 

[bigfrank]

Good thread guys. Very helpful.