How important are preclinical grades?

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Transferring out from one is silly though. Like if someone has the stats to transfer out only having 2 years to do undergrad, then they're truly a machine. It's one thing to be neurotic at 20 & 21, but to transfer out you literally have to be neurotic at 17 & 18( I took the MCAT when I was 18). In my opinion, that's to the point where it's great if you can do it, but it's extremely impractical for nearly everyone. I still feel a school's quality isn't so important, so even though there's the whole argument that I'm probably a good enough student to get into a better school after 4 years, to me I'd rather go to a worse school 2 years earlier. Yeah the scholarships thing is silly, but honestly I feel that saving 2 yrs of one's life is basically invaluable.
You're missing my point. In the normal application process, medical schools are known to entice students who normally would not come to their institution or are deciding among schools, with scholarship money. With these combined programs, these schools have absolutely no incentive to offer you any money at all - whether at the undergraduate or medical school level.

And yes, a medical school's quality (esp. in their MS-3 year) is important and Residency PDs understand this. Residency PDs don't give a **** that you graduated 2 years earlier. Are you in the undergraduate part right now? If you truly believe that saving 2 years is "invaluable" you'll realize soon enough that it isn't.
 
You're missing my point. In the normal application process, medical schools are known to entice students who normally would not come to their institution or are deciding among schools, with scholarship money. With these combined programs, these schools have absolutely no incentive to offer you any money at all - whether at the undergraduate or medical school level.

And yes, a medical school's quality (esp. in their MS-3 year) is important and Residency PDs understand this. Residency PDs don't give a **** that you graduated 2 years earlier. Are you in the undergraduate part right now? If you truly believe that saving 2 years is "invaluable" you'll realize soon enough that it isn't.

No I'm rising M2. I mean medicine is a sh*tshow right now, so getting out there and getting a residency spot 2 years before they do something really f*cking dumb is just one of the reasons. I understand your point, but I really disagree with the worth of 2 years. I haven't seen any BS/MD schools that really have crappy medical schools, so I mean it's not like I'd be going to duke if I went traditional and then ended up at a community college type of medical school. Plus a guaranteed acceptance.
 
No I'm rising M2. I mean medicine is a sh*tshow right now, so getting out there and getting a residency spot 2 years before they do something really f*cking dumb is just one of the reasons. I understand your point, but I really disagree with the worth of 2 years. I haven't seen any BS/MD schools that really have crappy medical schools, so I mean it's not like I'd be going to duke if I went traditional and then ended up at a community college type of medical school. Plus a guaranteed acceptance.
Really? No crappy medical schools? (http://www.minimedicalschool.com/BA_MD_programs.html) You're kidding right? How does saving 2 years keep you from doing something dumb? You get no bonus from Residency PDs by finishing 2 years early - if anything they look down on them.

Out of the ones that save 2 years, the only actual good med school on that list is Jefferson.
 
Really? No crappy medical schools? (http://www.minimedicalschool.com/BA_MD_programs.html) You're kidding right? How does saving 2 years keep you from doing something dumb? You get no bonus from Residency PDs by finishing 2 years early - if anything they look down on them.

Out of the ones that save 2 years, the only actual good med school on that list is Jefferson.

I mean I've seen actual PDs that disagree with your statement on the value of a medical school in the application process. I have a BS, which I guess is slightly better than a BA? I'd hardly call my decision dumb, but obviously I'm biased in my path and you are in yours.
 
I mean I've seen actual PDs that disagree with your statement on the value of a medical school in the application process. I have a BS, which I guess is slightly better than a BA? I'd hardly call my decision dumb, but obviously I'm biased in my path and you are in yours.
That list includes both - BA and BS.

Very much depends on the actual specialty in question. Different med schools have different level of resources available. That is what sets each med school apart, besides the quality and institutions of the MS-3 rotations. It's a matter of quality control. In general, residency PDs either look down on, or have qualms about students from these programs, esp. the ones that accelerate, due to concerns about maturity, etc. In you saving 2 years, at best you can get is a neutral response, at worst negative. It's almost never viewed as a positive.
 
FWIW, no one from WVU ever gets an interview at Duke for radiology. Ever. We've had some pretty ballin' candidates over the last three years, too. So, to say if those people went to Duke, Hopkins, or Harvard, they still wouldn't have gotten interviews is absolutely asinine.
👍 Exactly. Pedigree - right or wrong, matters. Medicine is no exception.
 
That list includes both - BA and BS.

Very much depends on the actual specialty in question. Different med schools have different level of resources available. That is what sets each med school apart, besides the quality and institutions of the MS-3 rotations. It's a matter of quality control. In general, residency PDs either look down on, or have qualms about students from these programs, esp. the ones that accelerate, due to concerns about maturity, etc. In you saving 2 years, at best you can get is a neutral response, at worst negative. It's almost never viewed as a positive.

I'm not trying to look at it as a positive for this reason. I never said " I did a BS/MD so I could match into a hyper-competitive specialty." Any PD that looks at a BS/MD student specially, good or bad is an idiot. I'm pretty sure their interview process could reveal the same character flaws/ or positive traits for BS/MD students that it could for traditionals.
 
I'm not trying to look at it as a positive for this reason. I never said " I did a BS/MD so I could match into a hyper-competitive specialty." Any PD that looks at a BS/MD student specially, good or bad is an idiot. I'm pretty sure their interview process could reveal the same character flaws/ or positive traits for BS/MD students that it could for traditionals.
This is irrespective of whether it's a hypercompetitive specialty or not. Residency PDs tend to view those in accelerated med programs as immature and study drones who aren't well-rounded, based on their past experiences with them (we're not talking about 8 year programs here which are just like traditionals). I didn't say the interview process would be different. It's part of your CV and Residency PDs notice it.
 
This is irrespective of whether it's a hypercompetitive specialty or not. Residency PDs tend to view those in accelerated med programs as immature and study drones who aren't well-rounded, based on their past experiences with them (we're not talking about 8 year programs here which are just like traditionals). I didn't say the interview process would be different. It's part of your CV and Residency PDs notice it.

I highly doubt they're going to base an assumption off that, when they literally talk to you for hours and could actually see for themselves. Since the interview process is no different, they have the same large amount of time to evaluate someone's overall personality.
 
I highly doubt they're going to base an assumption off that, when they literally talk to you for hours and could actually see for themselves. Since the interview process is no different, they have the same large amount of time to evaluate someone's overall personality.
No, they base it off of past experiences with graduates of these programs in assessing the quality of their graduates. Since the 1960s (when they first started back when medicine wasn't popular), these programs have largely fallen out of favor for good reason.
 
Transferring out from one is silly though. Like if someone has the stats to transfer out only having 2 years to do undergrad, then they're truly a machine. It's one thing to be neurotic at 20 & 21, but to transfer out you literally have to be neurotic at 17 & 18( I took the MCAT when I was 18). In my opinion, that's to the point where it's great if you can do it, but it's extremely impractical for nearly everyone. I still feel a school's quality isn't so important, so even though there's the whole argument that I'm probably a good enough student to get into a better school after 4 years, to me I'd rather go to a worse school 2 years earlier. Yeah the scholarships thing is silly, but honestly I feel that saving 2 yrs of one's life is basically invaluable.

You can't "save" time to use it later. If you are planning to be at the absolute top of an extremely competitive specialty it might be a bit helpful that you can use that time to do things closely related to what you want to do. There is also a financial incentive (although if that was really the reason, medicine would probably not be your best bet anyway). Other than that, I would say by doing an accelerated program you are actually depriving yourself of a lot of experiences in life. Everything you do will help you become a better physician and even more importantly a better person.
 
Transferring out from one is silly though. Like if someone has the stats to transfer out only having 2 years to do undergrad, then they're truly a machine. It's one thing to be neurotic at 20 & 21, but to transfer out you literally have to be neurotic at 17 & 18( I took the MCAT when I was 18). In my opinion, that's to the point where it's great if you can do it, but it's extremely impractical for nearly everyone. I still feel a school's quality isn't so important, so even though there's the whole argument that I'm probably a good enough student to get into a better school after 4 years, to me I'd rather go to a worse school 2 years earlier. Yeah the scholarships thing is silly, but honestly I feel that saving 2 yrs of one's life is basically invaluable.



Couldn't really disagree more. Well I had to pay much more tuition for my 2 years than someone who takes 15 credit hours/semester does, so I probably saved little to no money in terms of actual expenditure going to a bs/md. However I saved 2 years, which is way more valuable than any amount of "undergraduate experience", I still have an undergrad degree, and like you said get 2 more years at attending salary. I mean 2 years of your life is a pretty big deal in my opinion.. The undergrad portion was relatively difficult, but I mean it's just like preclinical medical school. You have more than enough time to do whatever you want, you just have to be dedicated to get that time. The whole thing about being guaranteed into medical school was huge as well. I have a set amount of conditions to meet during undergrad and if I did that, I was in, for sure. Yes if someone gets a decent MCAT and has a decent app they're going to get into somewhere, but I literally knew where I was guaranteed to go, provided I did decent. I'm not big on uncertainty, so the time + guarantee thing was huge to me. Removed a lot of stress about the whole process. Was probably a more competitive HS app than medical school one, so if I didn't get in to a bs/md, wouldn't have been interested in medicine at all, just because it didn't make sense logically to me. That doesn't mean I wasn't interested, but it's the whole " if the ROI isn't high enough for something, I don't care care how much you like it, it's stupid to make it your career" thing.

I guess I have a fundamentally different outlook.

I thoroughly enjoyed college. It's not as though I lost two years of my life by going a traditional route. I lived that time, and had comparably few responsibilities ( as compared to now). I also got to study whatever the hell I wanted (which in my case was microbiology).

Even the times when I simultaneously worked in a lab, worked as a teaching assistant, and took graduate classes were tolerable. Most of the time I didn't have that much going on.

I also met my wife: aside from classes, work, and research, she was all I had to spend time on. Even as an attending I doubt I'll have as much time as I did then, especially with just her. Also, I'll probably never meet as many cool people with varying interests/backgrounds as I did then.

College was great, and I couldn't ask for a much better way to spend my life. As for the guarantees: you still have a significant risk either way. I would have been significantly more likely to do something stupid (probably involving alcohol) as an 18-year-old than as a 22-year-old. Just one example of many.

But I guess to each his own. Thanks for the response
 
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You can't "save" time to use it later. If you are planning to be at the absolute top of an extremely competitive specialty it might be a bit helpful that you can use that time to do things closely related to what you want to do. There is also a financial incentive (although if that was really the reason, medicine would probably not be your best bet anyway). Other than that, I would say by doing an accelerated program you are actually depriving yourself of a lot of experiences in life. Everything you do will help you become a better physician and even more importantly a better person.
You're also depriving yourself of the stress about waiting to see if/where you got in. Yeah no thanks. If you don't think entering your field 2 years early isn't beneficial then idk what to tell you. The financial incentive could surely swing one's thought about something... Sounds like you're all just looking for a reason to rag on something you aren't. There are positives and negatives to each side, yet apparently to you it's all negatives. Ok, well every bs/md program I've ever seen is jam packed full of applicants for a reason...
 
You can't "save" time to use it later. If you are planning to be at the absolute top of an extremely competitive specialty it might be a bit helpful that you can use that time to do things closely related to what you want to do. There is also a financial incentive (although if that was really the reason, medicine would probably not be your best bet anyway). Other than that, I would say by doing an accelerated program you are actually depriving yourself of a lot of experiences in life. Everything you do will help you become a better physician and even more importantly a better person.
Exactly. You're not "saving" time. You're just entering the workforce earlier. These programs have largely fallen out of favor either by increasing the number of years or being cut out completely -- Michigan Inteflex which was 6 years: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/bhlead/umich-bhl-9620?rgn=main;view=text

http://nicksartor.wordpress.com/inteflex/
 
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You're also depriving yourself of the stress about waiting to see if/where you got in. Yeah no thanks. If you don't think entering your field 2 years early isn't beneficial then idk what to tell you. The financial incentive could surely swing one's thought about something... Sounds like you're all just looking for a reason to rag on something you aren't. There are positives and negatives to each side, yet apparently to you it's all negatives. Ok, well every bs/md program I've ever seen is jam packed full of applicants for a reason...
Yeah, that must be it. 🙄 You realize medical school is filled with even more stress that makes med school admissions a joke, right? Yes, bc I'm sure the reason the accelerated programs are jam packed with applicants, is not bc of overbearing, helicopter parents pressuring their kids to enter these programs, right?
 
Yeah, that must be it. 🙄 You realize medical school is filled with even more stress that makes med school admissions a joke, right? Yes, bc I'm sure the reason the accelerated programs are jam packed with applicants, is not bc of overbearing, helicopter parents pressuring their kids to enter these programs, right?

That is an honest critique of bs/md programs. My thing is that at 17 years old, I had a contractual agreement that if I met certain conditions, I would be admitted into medical school. That was extremely valuable to me, just like saving the two years was. You're definitely saving time. People don't just arbitrarily work towards retirement. You can play semantics all you want, I will do 1 of the following: A) retire 2 years younger than I would have if I had gone traditional and gotten accepted (with the earnings having a higher value of the retiring early than the traditional ratio)B) retire at the same time or a year earlier, and still be in a better position financially(more gross earnings, and at a higher value)

Again, there's only one side here painting a one-sided picture. I'm completely open about the shortcomings the programs.
 
That is an honest critique of bs/md programs. My thing is that at 17 years old, I had a contractual agreement that if I met certain conditions, I would be admitted into medical school. That was extremely valuable to me, just like saving the two years was. You're definitely saving time. People don't just arbitrarily work towards retirement. You can play semantics all you want, I will do 1 of the following: A) retire 2 years younger than I would have if I had gone traditional and gotten accepted (with the earnings having a higher value of the retiring early than the traditional ratio)B) retire at the same time or a year earlier, and still be in a better position financially(more gross earnings, and at a higher value)

Again, there's only one side here painting a one-sided picture. I'm completely open about the shortcomings the programs.
You're not "saving" anything, and definitely not money (since you're usually not offered scholarship support at any level). You're just entering the medicine workforce earlier than you normally would.

http://nicksartor.wordpress.com/inteflex/

History

Inteflex, or the Integrated Premedical-Medical Program, began as an alternative to the traditional path of obtaining a medical degree: four years of premedical education focusing on the sciences and matriculation to medical school. Inteflex combined and accelerated these into one program. Inteflex aimed to produce a more caring and humane, rather than what was seen as a disease-oriented, physician. One of the original pushes to start the program was a national concern over a shortage of doctors. There was also a widely held perception that doctors were not overly compassionate. Due to these reasons, there was ample funding to start a program that would focus on creating humane doctors at an accelerated rate. It was decided to test the theory that an education based on the arts, social sciences, and ethics would produce a more caring doctor.

Inteflex distinguished itself by becoming an exclusive program offering openings for a limited number of LS&A students, 50 or fewer per year. Although acceptance to the program and the course-load was intense, “flexies” had a supportive atmosphere. Many of the students lived together in East Quad, a move that staff hoped would foster cooperation rather than competition. Inteflex also had specialized premedical counselors to help with academic or personal issues. Students also did not have to compete for entrance into medical school since they were guaranteed entrance with their Inteflex status.

Classes in the Inteflex program included a combination of standard LS&A courses and smaller classes only for Inteflex students. The program attempted to reduce the redundancy between premedical preparation and medical school while offering an introduction to the arts and social sciences. The original six-year program contained 24 months of concentrated undergraduate education, two years of basic medical sciences in small Inteflex classes, and two years of clinical clerkship with standard medical students.

One of the key Inteflex courses was Introduction to Patient Care, or the “preceptorship.” This was a summer course that featured one-on-one work in a medical setting. The student was placed with a mentor doctor and worked along with him or her for two months. This took place the first summer at the university, exposing the students to patient care early in their medical training.

Since the program began as an experiment, the program was constantly being evaluated. Students were questioned, tested, and evaluated with regularity. The curriculum changed with the results of the studies. Inteflex was also continually making adjustments to conform to curriculum changes and standards set by the MedicalSchool and LS&A. Inteflex leader made several adjustments to courses, requirements, length of study, and admissions over the years.

The program became a total of seven years in 1982. The undergraduate portion lengthened to three years. Inteflex students studied basic sciences with standard medical students, however they used different schedules. Yearly class size also decreased from fifty incoming students to forty. These adjustments were made due to a number of factors. The intense six year program made it difficult for students to finish their requirements within the required time span. LS&A required foreign language proficiency. It was often difficult for “flexies” to meet this requirement without previous instruction or advanced placement in high school. The initial national fervor to educate more doctors also declined. Funding for Inteflex also lessened at this time.

Inteflex expanded program length again in 1994 following massive curriculum changes within the MedicalSchool the previous year. The new medical curriculum was too different to accommodate the former Inteflex structure and as a result, it became an eight year program. The undergraduate portion became four years long. Admissions were lowered again, from 40 to 35 incoming students per year. Also, Inteflex students were now required to pass the MCAT medical school examination and have a combined MCAT/GPA score of a certain level before entrance into the MedicalSchool. This was a first for the program since previously students, once admitted into Inteflex, moved right into Medical School without separate applications, assessment, or testing. This move was initiated by the Medical School after finding that Inteflex students generally had more difficulty in Medical School than students taking the standard path. At this time, Inteflex changed focus slightly to accommodate and support more minorities and students from rural areas. Attention was given to producing primary care physicians, a continuation of the hope for more compassionate doctors. The program now also allowed students a non-M.D. degree option.

The program underwent close scrutiny in 1997. Reviewers included the Medical School, LS&A, and Inteflex faculty as well as Inteflex students, counselors, alumni, and staff. After much consideration, it was determined that Inteflex was no longer making an enduring contribution to either LS&A or the Medical School. The review committee decided that the curriculum was no longer innovative, the community was too stifling for the “real world” of medical school, and that Inteflex students were generally not academically better than regular medical students. Even though it was studied thoroughly, there was no final way of determining if the Inteflex program, with its small classes, individualized attention and focus on humanities, created a more compassionate doctor than students going through a traditional path. If they were using the family practice doctor as a resulting factor, then this did not prove to be the case. Most doctors who were “flexies” specialized in a particular branch as did most traditional students. The program accepted the last entering class in 1998, and Inteflex offices closed in 2002. The last group of “flexies” was scheduled to graduate Medical School in 2006.
 
That's one example. Again the concept of saving or not saving isn't debatable. You're flat out wrong. I don't understand how you can't understand this. You literally work two years earlier. That's saving time. Retirement isn't arbitrary. Money earned two years earlier, especially in medicine has a higher value than money earned two years later. This is really basic.
 
That's one example. Again the concept of saving or not saving isn't debatable. You're flat out wrong. I don't understand how you can't understand this. You literally work two years earlier. That's saving time. Retirement isn't arbitrary. Money earned two years earlier, especially in medicine has a higher value than money earned two years later. This is really basic.

I bolded the difference in interpretation that you're not appreciating.
If you measure time passed as time within an educational system, or time until beginning work, (as you seem to) then you are correct.

If you measure time as number of years lived, it is unlikely to matter (bsmd/ vs traditional curriculum is unlikely to change life expectancy). Then it becomes a matter of how you would rather spend those years. Many of us feel that two years of working as an attending in one's 20's/30's are poor substitution for 2 years in college during one's 20's. When/how you retire is unlikely to be as related to when you graduate as it is to how you use money.

If your life is a race to the workforce, or to retirement, then I feel sorry for you.

I'm essentially saying the same thing in a variety of ways though, so perhaps it's best now to just agree to disagree.
 
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That's one example. Again the concept of saving or not saving isn't debatable. You're flat out wrong. I don't understand how you can't understand this. You literally work two years earlier. That's saving time. Retirement isn't arbitrary. Money earned two years earlier, especially in medicine has a higher value than money earned two years later. This is really basic.
Yes, that is one example which is indicative of a larger problem which has repeated in several programs which have now either disappeared completely due to so many problems in board pass rate, grades, etc. or increased in length to the full 8 years.
 
I bolded the difference in interpretation that you're not appreciating.
If you measure time passed as time within an educational system, or time until beginning work, (as you seem to) then you are correct.

If you measure time as number of years lived, it is unlikely to matter (bsmd/ vs traditional curriculum is unlikely to change life expectancy). Then it becomes a matter of how you would rather spend those years. Many of us feel that two years of working as an attending in one's 20's/30's are poor substitution for 2 years in college during one's 20's. When/how you retire is unlikely to be as related to when you graduate as it is to how you use money.

If your life is a race to the workforce, or to retirement, then I feel sorry for you.


I'm essentially saying the same thing in a variety of ways though, so perhaps it's best now to just agree to disagree.
THIS.
 

Then you're not being pragmatic. That's like the typical " high school was the best years of my life," and how that person generally doesn't have a good overall life. I'll take 2 years where I'm making money and can actually stuff I want to do, vs 2 years of being a college student, any day.. It's the same exact thing as the high school thing. I'd rather move on and get to where I can be independent and do what I wish to do, rather than waiting around to reach that point and enjoying what appears to be so fun at a young age but really isn't that cool compared to stuff I could do when I'm older.
 
Then you're not being pragmatic. That's like the typical " high school was the best years of my life," and how that person generally doesn't have a good overall life. I'll take 2 years where I'm making money and can actually stuff I want to do, vs 2 years of being a college student, any day.. It's the same exact thing as the high school thing. I'd rather move on and get to where I can be independent and do what I wish to do, rather than waiting around to reach that point and enjoying what appears to be so fun at a young age but really isn't that cool compared to stuff I could do when I'm older.
If you think as an attending physician, you get to do what you wish to do, then you're highly mistaken. If you believe that college is just a waste of time, and of you waiting around, then I feel sad for you.
 
Then you're not being pragmatic. That's like the typical " high school was the best years of my life," and how that person generally doesn't have a good overall life. I'll take 2 years where I'm making money and can actually stuff I want to do, vs 2 years of being a college student, any day.. It's the same exact thing as the high school thing. I'd rather move on and get to where I can be independent and do what I wish to do, rather than waiting around to reach that point and enjoying what appears to be so fun at a young age but really isn't that cool compared to stuff I could do when I'm older.

I took the liberty of bolding a few more statements.

"typical.....life" - This is a combination of a false comparison, an over-generalization and a subjective value judgement. I feel no need to address it beyond saying that.

As for the other statement:
Many people are independent during college. Aside from things that cost a great deal of money, there's not much you can't do as a traditional college student. Living on a budget doesn't mean you can't live.

Personally I enjoy meeting new people, doing new things, learning new things, drinking beer, and being around people I enjoy. All were possible during college.

It has been my (admittedly very limited) experience with Bs/MD programs that they tend to preserve the high school atmosphere better than large colleges. Perhaps you attended a program with this failing: if so, I understand where you're coming from, but that experience is not generalizable to everyone.

Alternatively, I met some people who felt the (very large public) school I was at was an extension of high-school. Unsurprisingly, these were the same people who made no effort to meet new people. They still mostly hung out with people from their home-town.

College and life share many things in common, but the most important one is each is what you make it.

And with that platitude I will leave this de-railed thread to die in peace.
 
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It's funny you seem to think I'm only looking at negatives about the BS/MD program. In reality I don't have a very strong opinion on the topic. If I had decided in high school that I was absolutely positive I wanted to be a doctor, I might have done one, so I wouldn't have had to apply. It is quite an appealing idea! I had a great application in high school!

In fact, I had an extremely rough time applying to med school. I took my MCAT and didn't do that well. I applied and got REJECTED the first time I applied. I had always done really well at school and other things, so it was a pretty huge shock for me. I retook the MCAT and it CRUSHED MY SOUL. And I only did 1 point better. I rethought if that was what I really wanted with my life, and did some other different things and had some amazing experiences (All on a budget!). In the end, I put 110% of myself into my reapp and got into most of the schools I applied to! So you see, for me it would have been WAY easier to have gone through a combine program, regardless of how long. But would I have been doing as well as I am now? probably not. Would I but LOVING every moment (even the stressful and painful and boring ones) of school when half of my classmates are complaining? probably not. Would I have travelled to all the cool places and learned all the cool things outside of my career (in addition to bringing some significant skills TO my career that most people will never have the opportunity to develop)? nope!

Going through tough times builds character and makes you grateful for the things you have.

It's true you MAY be able to retire two years before some other people, but like others have said, you are forgetting that it's not a race to the end. A lot of people (esp. if you define yourself by your career) don't WANT to retire when it comes time, because that is something you dedicated so much time to. Honestly, I don't know if I will want to retire fully until I am much older. In addition, there is no guarantee you will even get there! My brother-in-law's parents had tons of plans to sell their house and travel all over the world when they retired. Four years before that he died of cancer. So many things happen in life, you really need to enjoy the time while you have it (obviously within reason). When you reach xyz goal, you will just find another one to try to get to.

Clearly, you had your reasons for choosing what you did at the time, but defending your bs/md to the grave as you are is just showing your immaturity and giving more weight to the argument that students who didn't have to apply separately to med school are less prepared than other students.
 
****, if I was accepted into a BS/MD program at 18, I would've likely been way too immature to buckle down and dominate medical school. I probably would've ended up in some miserable specialty I disliked.

Instead, I took the long road to the promised land. I don't regret not starting earlier at all.
 
****, if I was accepted into a BS/MD program at 18, I would've likely been way too immature to buckle down and dominate medical school. I probably would've ended up in some miserable specialty I disliked.

Instead, I took the long road to the promised land. I don't regret not starting earlier at all.

It's too bad you're soooo old, though.
 
Yes, but the years of practice are MUCH longer, just like Rads vs. say Emergency Med or Surgery.

I was just teasing him.

How are the years of practice for IR? 🙁
 
I was just teasing him.

How are the years of practice for IR? 🙁
I guess it depends on how busy it is, how often you're on call, etc. I'm sure pretty cush at a VA.
 
I guess it depends on how busy it is, how often you're on call, etc. I'm sure pretty cush at a VA.

Ah, they're pretty crappy, actually. The lead takes its toll pretty quick. Even the light lead isn't that great.
 
It's funny you seem to think I'm only looking at negatives about the BS/MD program. In reality I don't have a very strong opinion on the topic. If I had decided in high school that I was absolutely positive I wanted to be a doctor, I might have done one, so I wouldn't have had to apply. It is quite an appealing idea! I had a great application in high school!

In fact, I had an extremely rough time applying to med school. I took my MCAT and didn't do that well. I applied and got REJECTED the first time I applied. I had always done really well at school and other things, so it was a pretty huge shock for me. I retook the MCAT and it CRUSHED MY SOUL. And I only did 1 point better. I rethought if that was what I really wanted with my life, and did some other different things and had some amazing experiences (All on a budget!). In the end, I put 110% of myself into my reapp and got into most of the schools I applied to! So you see, for me it would have been WAY easier to have gone through a combine program, regardless of how long. But would I have been doing as well as I am now? probably not. Would I but LOVING every moment (even the stressful and painful and boring ones) of school when half of my classmates are complaining? probably not. Would I have travelled to all the cool places and learned all the cool things outside of my career (in addition to bringing some significant skills TO my career that most people will never have the opportunity to develop)? nope!

Going through tough times builds character and makes you grateful for the things you have.

It's true you MAY be able to retire two years before some other people, but like others have said, you are forgetting that it's not a race to the end. A lot of people (esp. if you define yourself by your career) don't WANT to retire when it comes time, because that is something you dedicated so much time to. Honestly, I don't know if I will want to retire fully until I am much older. In addition, there is no guarantee you will even get there! My brother-in-law's parents had tons of plans to sell their house and travel all over the world when they retired. Four years before that he died of cancer. So many things happen in life, you really need to enjoy the time while you have it (obviously within reason). When you reach xyz goal, you will just find another one to try to get to.

Clearly, you had your reasons for choosing what you did at the time, but defending your bs/md to the grave as you are is just showing your immaturity and giving more weight to the argument that students who didn't have to apply separately to med school are less prepared than other students.

I wasn't just talking about you. Never once have I denied the negatives and have openly stated them numerous times myself. I'm not acting immature, just you're trying to pimp me because you know I'm young. Whatever though, it's not really a concern to me.
 
Ah, they're pretty crappy, actually. The lead takes its toll pretty quick. Even the light lead isn't that great.
Yes, in general, "lifestyle" for IR isn't that great, not as bad as surgery. But if you love doing procedures: UVC filter placement, TIPs, etc. then I'm sure it's rewarding. At the VA they don't do procedures after 3 so IR there is probably great.
 
I'm not acting immature, just you're trying to pimp me because you know I'm young. Whatever though, it's not really a concern to me.
Yeah, definitely mature. MS-3 will be quite fun for you.
 
I couldn't help but laughing.
He's Exhibit A of why PDs don't like these type of programs. They got started in the 1960s-1970s when medicine is no where near as popular as it is today. Some of them were even 5 year programs 😱.
 
Yes, in general, "lifestyle" for IR isn't that great, not as bad as surgery. But if you love doing procedures: UVC filter placement, TIPs, etc. then I'm sure it's rewarding. At the VA they don't do procedures after 3 so IR there is probably great.

This seems like it would be a difficult procedure, and I had no idea they made filters for umbilical veins.
 
How does calling it pimping somehow reflect negatively on me? Again, let's recap. During the discussion, I have stated numerous negatives and accepted they are valid critiques and I have also said for a majority of students I feel the programs are ineffective. However I stated my reasons for why I chose to undergo one. I haven't been like " ZOMG GUYS THEY'RE THE BEST ANYONE THAT DOESN'T DO ONE IS STUPID!!!" You wouldn't have said my responses were immature, if you didn't know that I was younger than typical. I have no problem with attendings/residents asking questions to test knowledge. I'm saying that your somehow looking down and projecting immaturity, when I've been the objective one the entire discussion. I've shown both sides and Dermvisor in particular has only shown one. Just because you're a resident and I'm a lowly M2 doesn't mean you can't act immature, but ok. I'd say that repeating the same argument over and over, using a single example over and over and failing to realize any pros is pretty immature...

love to see one example of immaturity, because I can post multiples of yours. You're the one that debates like you're 18. You either say your point, and then if the person agrees, you're the man, or if they don't, it's either A) well you're at a lower level than me so you don't know B) You're being naive or obtuse. Right on
 
I feel like people obsess about them too much, but obviously it's not going to hurt you to do well.
Yeah. It's just that it's such a pain in the ass to honor, and its so easy to let yourself do just enough to pass. I guess I can try harder in MS2 since it's more relevant for step 1 anyway.
 
Yeah. It's just that it's such a pain in the ass to honor, and its so easy to let yourself do just enough to pass. I guess I can try harder in MS2 since it's more relevant for step 1 anyway.

Honestly I think this is the wrong attitude. You should try to learn as much as you can for your patients, not for step 1.
 
Honestly I think this is the wrong attitude. You should try to learn as much as you can for your patients, not for step 1.
This has been discussed 1000s of times before, but it's hard to see the utility of the minutiae in helping your patients. Anything minor you forget can be looked up in about 3 seconds on uptodate or even wikipedia. The things keeping me from getting honors, like the mechanisms of cystic fibrosis transmembrane conductance regulator action, are not things that I care to learn. I obviously am paying more attention to things like the signs and symptoms of CF and cholera and their prognosis and treatments. You know, things that I need to pass the course and might have a snowball's chance in hell of being useful.
 
If you don't know about it, you won't be able to forget it. The more you know, the better it is for your patients. Learning the pathophysiology is important and our understanding of how the human body works is what separates us from everyone else. You never know what might end up helping
For your cystic fibrosis complaint, they're designing therapy that will targets that channel, whether it's for the issue with protein folding or if it has to do with the channel itself. You don't necessarily need to know all of the details to be able to identify the disease and treat it but if you just want that, no need to put yourself through the rigors of medical school
 
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Dermvisor:


In thread “tier difficulty” Law2Doc posted:

"Sorry, while your comments on other topics are usually good, I think you are taking the uninformed pre-allo myth road on this one. Take it from someone who actually served on committees, or take it from the regular PD surveys, but school name is very much a Lesser factor, rarely entering into the discussion."

"It's less an IM thing and more an SDN thing. People like to think they are set. They don't like to think someone coming from a different path can pass them like they are standing still. So these myths persist. Yet when asked, PDs pretty universally state that school name is a lower or nonexistent factor. So who are you going to believe?"

Who does someone believe?

L2D is not the end-all source for residency application knowledge.

We just had a roundtable discussion with nearly all the PDs at our school (IM, GS, Ortho, Rads, EM, etc..). Their message about grades and school reputation was this:

"Don't worry about having a B in a clinical rotation. Even if you're planning on entering that field. Our reputation is good enough that most PDs would pick you over another student from a lesser school with an A."

Obviously you need to do well in all your classes and rotations, get a competitive step 1 score, and good LORs.

But, school name means a lot, especially at top schools.
 
L2D is not the end-all source for residency application knowledge.

We just had a roundtable discussion with nearly all the PDs at our school (IM, GS, Ortho, Rads, EM, etc..). Their message about grades and school reputation was this:

"Don't worry about having a B in a clinical rotation. Even if you're planning on entering that field. Our reputation is good enough that most PDs would pick you over another student from a lesser school with an A."

Obviously you need to do well in all your classes and rotations, get a competitive step 1 score, and good LORs.

But, school name means a lot, especially at top schools.
Of course, Hopkins would say that. Point is reputation matters.
 
This has been discussed 1000s of times before, but it's hard to see the utility of the minutiae in helping your patients. Anything minor you forget can be looked up in about 3 seconds on uptodate or even wikipedia. The things keeping me from getting honors, like the mechanisms of cystic fibrosis transmembrane conductance regulator action, are not things that I care to learn. I obviously am paying more attention to things like the signs and symptoms of CF and cholera and their prognosis and treatments. You know, things that I need to pass the course and might have a snowball's chance in hell of being useful.

If you don't know about it, you won't be able to forget it. The more you know, the better it is for your patients. Learning the pathophysiology is important and our understanding of how the human body works is what separates us from everyone else. You never know what might end up helping
For your cystic fibrosis complaint, they're designing therapy that will targets that channel, whether it's for the issue with protein folding or if it has to do with the channel itself. You don't necessarily need to know all of the details to be able to identify the disease and treat it but if you just want that, no need to put yourself through the rigors of medical school

It's always interesting to me to see the different perspectives from people that are in medical school for different reasons: one being that they really want to help people and are good at science, and the other being they are really interested in the science and helping people is a nice bonus. Not saying that you two are necessarily in either category, but it just reminded me of this. I, myself, am in the latter category, and I find myself always wanting to know how things work..not just because it'll help me do well on a test, but because once you get passed the stresses of having to learn so much material, most if it turns out to be pretty damn interesting.
 
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