How important is R-I status

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Mell-Dogg

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I currently have offers from 2 PhD programs (I'm trying to make a decision so I can notify the programs ASAP. One is a great fit, but is not a Carnegie R-I (top tier research) graduate institution. The other is an OK fit and IS an R-I university. I'm research oriented, but I don't know how much the R-I status could make or break me when it comes to applying to post-doc/faculty positions in the future.

One of my professors told me that it would look better coming from an R-I school. Another professor said that, unless I want a faculty/post-doc position at an R-I school, it may not matter.

Anyone have a sense for how important this factor may be? I really want to be marketable for post-doc positions coming out of my PhD program and faculty positions thereafter. The non R-I school, however, is perfect fit and my mentor got her PhD and had her last teaching position at R-I universities.

I would welcome any advice so I can get this decision made!
 
Mell-Dogg said:
I currently have offers from 2 PhD programs (I'm trying to make a decision so I can notify the programs ASAP. One is a great fit, but is not a Carnegie R-I (top tier research) graduate institution. The other is an OK fit and IS an R-I university. I'm research oriented, but I don't know how much the R-I status could make or break me when it comes to applying to post-doc/faculty positions in the future.

One of my professors told me that it would look better coming from an R-I school. Another professor said that, unless I want a faculty/post-doc position at an R-I school, it may not matter.

Anyone have a sense for how important this factor may be? I really want to be marketable for post-doc positions coming out of my PhD program and faculty positions thereafter. The non R-I school, however, is perfect fit and my mentor got her PhD and had her last teaching position at R-I universities.

I would welcome any advice so I can get this decision made!

Isn't the R-I distinction general to the graduate school, as apposed to a specific distinction of the clinical psych program? I'd go on the data available for specific clinical psychology programs: Which mentor is more prolific? Which school has the best reputation specifically with regards to research in clinical psychology? If I were you, this is how I'd approach it.

Good luck!
 
I'm pretty sure it has been said in other threads, but who cares about all this ranking stuff? It essentially means nothing. Take a look at who created the ranking system(s). They are all pretty biased toward one type of school or another. Look at mentor reputation and connections, funding, amount of grant supported research, goodness or fit etc. but don't get caught up in the ranking system. Go where you feel most comfortable and don't worry about going to #17 or #38.
 
Thanks for the advice! I'm not so concerned about rank. I just want to ensure that I'm competitive when it comes time to get a post-doc or a faculty position. Both potential mentors are great with regards to personality and productivity (with better fit at one program.)

So, what I really want to know is whether I'll be disadvantaged in trying to attain an academic career coming from a lesser known school if my research background is solid.
 
I think if you are well-published, you'll be in a great position for positions at R1 schools. It's kind of expected that no one gets their first job at a place like where they went to graduate school, but people often move up. So even if you don't get a tenure-track position at an R1, after 2-3 years ... assuming you publish and get grants .... you can apply to move up. I think the match with your mentor is more important; that you feel excited about working with that person and that he/she will provide you the opportunities to get the needed publications.

I post often at the Chronicles of Higher Education forum - chronicle.edu - and it's been very helpful to get advice from actual faculty members. They might be able to help on this issue too.

Good luck!
 
I vote for the school with the best fit for your research interests.
 
Pardon my Naivete, but how could R-I status be that important? I'd imagine, that like most things if you work hard, publish, become an expert, probably do a post doc, and didn't attend the university of phoenix or a professional school, you can work at any type of instituion you want. I don't think anyone is comparing CVs against that list everytime they hire. That said, where you go to school does matter, if you say you want to do personality assesment and psychometrics it's more impressive if you went to Minnesota or Iowa that Miami (the first two are know for that work, the latter is not).
 
Psyclops said:
Pardon my Naivete, but how could R-I status be that important? I'd imagine, that like most things if you work hard, publish, become an expert, probably do a post doc, and didn't attend the university of phoenix or a professional school, you can work at any type of instituion you want. I don't think anyone is comparing CVs against that list everytime they hire.

Well, it's not just that one school (KU) is R-I and the other (Univ of MO- St. Louis) is not. I was told by a respected faculty member at my current university that, since I'm aiming for an academic career, KU would be far and away my best option. He said that the KU program is better known for producing academics and the faculty are well established in their fields, including the professor I'd be working under. UMSL, the school with the better fit seems OK to me and my potential mentor has a very productive research program and currently works at Vanderbilt Univ's Dept of Pediatrics, but the program is apparently known more so for producing practitioners.

I emailed the director of UMSL's clinical program and asked about the recent academic positions held by graduates of UMSL and her response was the following (Any more opinions on this issue. I could really use help. My leaning is pretty equal at the moment!):

"Postdocs:

-Chris Gilliam, upcoming postdoc at the Anxiety Disorders Center, Hartford Hospital with David Tolin, she’ll be involved in both the research and clinical activities of NIMH funded treatment studies of OCD, Panic Disorder, and hoarding behaviors.

-Travis Osborne, current postdoc at University of Washington School of Medicine (Seattle)

-Debra Kaysen, University of Washington School of Medicine (Seattle)

-Debbie Early, current postdoc at St. Louis Behavioral Medicine Institute in anxiety disorders


Academic Positions:

Tom Meuser, Assistant Professor of Neurology (Research), Washington University School of Medicine

Debbie Zand, Research Assistant Professor, Missouri Institute of Mental Health

Jerry Dunn, Assistant Professor and Director of Children’s Advocacy Center, University of Missouri-St. Louis

Judy Gant, Assistant Research Professor, University of Missouri-St. Louis

Matt Taylor, Associate Professor, University of Wisconsin-LaCrosse

Deborah Wise, Assistant Professor, Pacific University

Ryann Watson, Assistant Professor, University of Wisconsin School of Medicine

Amy Silberbogen, Assistant Professor, VA Boston Healthcare System, Boston University School of Medicine

Leslie Kimball Frank, Assistant Professor, Virginia Commonwealth University

Anouk Grubaugh, Assistant Professor, Medical University of South Carolina

Angie Waldrop, Medical University of South Carolina

A number of these folks have received either training (F32s), NIH or VA Career awards, or research developmental grants (R03s, R21s).

Our biggest brag is Dean Klinkenberg, Research Associate Professor at Missouri Institute of Mental Health, who just received the APA Div 12 (Clinical Psychology) Theodore H. Blau Early Career Award for Outstanding Contribution to Clinical Psychology."
 
Mell-Dogg said:
Well, it's not just that one school (KU) is R-I and the other (Univ of MO- St. Louis) is not. I was told by a respected faculty member at my current university that, since I'm aiming for an academic career, KU would be far and away my best option. He said that the KU program is better known for producing academics and the faculty are well established in their fields, including the professor I'd be working under. UMSL, the school with the better fit seems OK to me and my potential mentor has a very productive research program and currently works at Vanderbilt Univ's Dept of Pediatrics, but the program is apparently known more so for producing practitioners.

I emailed the director of UMSL's clinical program and asked about the recent academic positions held by graduates of UMSL and her response was the following (Any more opinions on this issue. I could really use help. My leaning is pretty equal at the moment!):

"Postdocs:

-Chris Gilliam, upcoming postdoc at the Anxiety Disorders Center, Hartford Hospital with David Tolin, she’ll be involved in both the research and clinical activities of NIMH funded treatment studies of OCD, Panic Disorder, and hoarding behaviors.

-Travis Osborne, current postdoc at University of Washington School of Medicine (Seattle)

-Debra Kaysen, University of Washington School of Medicine (Seattle)

-Debbie Early, current postdoc at St. Louis Behavioral Medicine Institute in anxiety disorders


Academic Positions:

Tom Meuser, Assistant Professor of Neurology (Research), Washington University School of Medicine

Debbie Zand, Research Assistant Professor, Missouri Institute of Mental Health

Jerry Dunn, Assistant Professor and Director of Children’s Advocacy Center, University of Missouri-St. Louis

Judy Gant, Assistant Research Professor, University of Missouri-St. Louis

Matt Taylor, Associate Professor, University of Wisconsin-LaCrosse

Deborah Wise, Assistant Professor, Pacific University

Ryann Watson, Assistant Professor, University of Wisconsin School of Medicine

Amy Silberbogen, Assistant Professor, VA Boston Healthcare System, Boston University School of Medicine

Leslie Kimball Frank, Assistant Professor, Virginia Commonwealth University

Anouk Grubaugh, Assistant Professor, Medical University of South Carolina

Angie Waldrop, Medical University of South Carolina

A number of these folks have received either training (F32s), NIH or VA Career awards, or research developmental grants (R03s, R21s).

Our biggest brag is Dean Klinkenberg, Research Associate Professor at Missouri Institute of Mental Health, who just received the APA Div 12 (Clinical Psychology) Theodore H. Blau Early Career Award for Outstanding Contribution to Clinical Psychology."

Have you emailed your two potential mentors and find out what their personal track records are with regards to producing academics?
 
That seems impressive, but it might be the case that she's leaving out lots of people who did something other than academics, or who have an academic position that isn't worth mentioning.

It seems like you'd get great training at both places. So maybe it'll just come down to fit or a feeling you had about each place. Is there one you are - for whatever reason - simply more excited about? Sometimes - I'm guilty of this too - you can spend forever analyzing two options for which there isn't really much difference. You seem to have two great options, and you won't make a "wrong" decision between the two!

Good luck.
 
Here's another thing to consider, even in halls of the R-I schools, if you ask thier professors, they will blush and admit that about 50% (give or take) head on to practice as oppose to hold academic positions. I say go with what you feel is right based on mentor fit, and assuming you have the drive the rest will take care of itself. It's not like the two options are Harvard and Guam. They are two university based PhD prorgrams that folow th boalder model. By the way is KU Kentucky?
 
joetro said:
That seems impressive, but it might be the case that she's leaving out lots of people who did something other than academics, or who have an academic position that isn't worth mentioning.

It seems like you'd get great training at both places. So maybe it'll just come down to fit or a feeling you had about each place. Is there one you are - for whatever reason - simply more excited about? Sometimes - I'm guilty of this too - you can spend forever analyzing two options for which there isn't really much difference. You seem to have two great options, and you won't make a "wrong" decision between the two!

Good luck.

I am terribly guilty of overanalyzing every detail in decisions like this!!!! I agree that both places would offer good training. Both places are respected universities with APA accredited programs, the students at both places seem happy, both potential mentors seem really invested in the success of their students, and both places are a good geographical fit for me (low cost of living, within reasonable driving distance of family, etc).

However, I am definitely most excited about the work being done by my potential mentor at UMSL and, because I am very research oriented and plan on being a very productive grad student, I hope to have a fairly strong CV by the time I finally get that degree regardless of the program. I think that, unless I get a really enthusiastic email from my potential mentor at KU (I emailed him about working together last week) at some point this week I'll definitely accept the UMSL offer.

Thanks so much for all your insight, Joe! I really appreciate it (and I honestly don't know what I'd do without the feedback from this forum!)
 
Psyclops said:
Here's another thing to consider, even in halls of the R-I schools, if you ask thier professors, they will blush and admit that about 50% (give or take) head on to practice as oppose to hold academic positions. I say go with what you feel is right based on mentor fit, and assuming you have the drive the rest will take care of itself. It's not like the two options are Harvard and Guam. They are two university based PhD prorgrams that folow th boalder model. By the way is KU Kentucky?

Yes, KU did mention that their record, like most other programs, was that of producing a pretty even 50-50 split of practitioners vs. academics. And I am determined to be a success no matter where I am at. Oh, and KU is the University of Kansas in Lawrence. They're pretty well known for Dr. Ingram and Illiard's work with depression.

I have a feeling that my UMSL mentor, however, is going to make quite the name for herself in the future (she is still quite young, but already has an impressive CV) and am thinking that working under her may really be just as great of an option even if UMSL's program doesn't have quite the academic reputation of KU's. But, as you mentioned, it's not like passing up KU would be like passing up a Harvard offer!!

Anyway, I really appreciate you (and everyone else) taking the time to provide their insight! It's going to be a tough decision, but I think I'm on my way to get it all sorted out! Hopefully, I'll be able to notify programs of a decision this week!
 
clinpsychgirl said:
Have you emailed your two potential mentors and find out what their personal track records are with regards to producing academics?

Yes, and they are both solid in this regard with one potential mentor (at KU) already extremely known in his field and the other (at UMSL) who is already making a name for herself. Both are very committed to the productivity and success of their students and have reputations for being excellent mentors! Tough decision, huh?
 
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