How important (or detrimental) is going to a med school with a Pass / Fail curriculum and no student rankings ?

[Putkernerinthehall]

With multiple acceptances but to schools with different grading scheme and ranking policies, how significant are these factors to student success and well-being ?

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[theconfusedapplicant]

I don’t have an actual answer to this but I’ll just share some of my thoughts on this as I’m in a similar situation.

For me and I assume most other students, having a pass/fail curriculum is a no-brainer. With p/f as common as it is now and if I had the option, I would never choose a school with letter grades over one with p/f.

Where the issue comes in is with internal ranking. Some schools rank their students into thirds, some into quartiles, etc. To me this distinction doesn’t matter too much, but the less groups we’re split into the better (for me), since technically it’s easier to be in the top third than the top quartile.

Another thing to consider is how the ranking is calculated. Is it only preclinical grades? Is it a mix of preclinical and clinical, and how is that weighed? I know some schools weigh your ranking heavily toward the clinical grades where 80% is determined by clinical and 20% preclinical. To me this is better than having preclinical grades weighed more heavily. Also, it’s important to figure out what exactly your ranking affects. Is it written on your MSPE when applying to residencies? How does it factor into honor societies like AOA?

Some top schools, like Harvard for example, don’t use internal rankings and don’t have AOA because they’re already prestigious enough. When a PD sees Harvard, they’re already intrigued and know (or at least assume) that the applicant is a good student. If you’re coming from less competitively ranked school, you might actually want to be ranked and have AOA because it gives you a way to distinguish yourself from other students. It shows PDs that you’re competitive.

On the other hand, if you’re not doing too well, you might not want to be ranked. Unfortunately, being seen as both very competitive without having to actually compete with your classmates is a luxury that only some students in some top schools can enjoy. Some schools do their best to minimize how important internal rankings are though.

I guess it just depends on your school options and how exactly the ranking is calculated, as well as what you ultimately feel will contribute to your success and happiness in school and residency.

 

[kepler16b]

Avoid any rankings or grades

 

[Ole_Toe]

Avoid any rankings or grades

100% Just so you know, it takes some work to find out how internal rankings operate at each program. You'll need to closely read the school's student handbook. But P/F is huge for quality of life. Also opens time for you to do research or figure out what specialties you like before clerkships.

 

[harvard_of_the_west]

Currently attending a school with P/F grading in pre-clinical years, and no ranking. I highly, highly recommend it! It makes your life a lot less stressful, it creates an atmosphere of collaboration and prevents gunner-ism, and it makes it a whole lot easier to look at yourself in the mirror when you have a bad day. Eventually, you will have a not-so-great test, or will receive some poor grade. It just happens. P/F grading makes everything so much easier. As long as you're above the passing threshold, you just move on!

 

[Goro]

With multiple acceptances but to schools with different grading scheme and ranking policies, how significant are these factors to student success and well-being ?

The P/F formats makes for less stressed students.

Program Directors don't care about your pre-clinical grades.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

The P/F formats makes for less stressed students.

Program Directors don't care about your pre-clinical grades.

Yes, but how about a school that is P/F all four years ? Pros and cons of that ?

 

[Goro]

Yes, but how about a school that is P/F all four years ? Pros and cons of that ?

Grades in clerkships may have some weight, but other things clearly have more weight. It may also vary by specialty.

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-PD-Survey.pdf

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Grades in clerkships may have some weight, but other things clearly have more weight. It may also vary by specialty.

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-PD-Survey.pdf

Wow, lot of different factors. Thanks for posting. Interesting the emphasis on professionalism, ethics, perceived interest, and leadership once you get to the interview stage (Fig 2). With Step 1 going P/F, clerkship grades, grades in specialty clerkship, and consistency of grades all likely move up the charts a little. Going to a school that is P/F all years presumably puts more weight on one's specialty letters and MSPE/Dean's letter pre-interview.

 

[Goro]

Wow, lot of different factors. Thanks for posting. Interesting the emphasis on professionalism, ethics, perceived interest, and leadership once you get to the interview stage (Fig 2). With Step 1 going P/F, clerkship grades, grades in specialty clerkship, and consistency of grades all likely move up the charts a little. Going to a school that is P/F all years presumably puts more weight on one's specialty letters and MSPE/Dean's letter pre-interview.

And Step 2, networking and auditions

 

[456432]

Where the issue comes in is with internal ranking. Some schools rank their students into thirds, some into quartiles, etc. To me this distinction doesn’t matter too much, but the less groups we’re split into the better (for me), since technically it’s easier to be in the top third than the top quartile.

How do we find out if the school actually has an internal ranking? I would assume that no med school wants that to be publicly known, right? (Because that basically defeats the purpose of P/F and would cause already competitive students to stay competitive/cutthroat)

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

How do we find out if the school actually has an internal ranking? I would assume that no med school wants that to be publicly known, right? (Because that basically defeats the purpose of P/F and would cause already competitive students to stay competitive/cutthroat)

MSAR answers (for most schools) the question of whether or not a school ranks students. It does not provide information to the level noted in the questions from @theconfusedapplicant earlier in this thread (How the ranking is calculated, is it only preclinical grades, a mix of preclinical and clinical, and how is that weighed, etc.)

Seems like where this question of P/F really comes into play is if you have acceptance at a higher ranked more prestigious school that is graded and an acceptance at a lower ranked school that is P/F.

 

[theconfusedapplicant]

How do we find out if the school actually has an internal ranking? I would assume that no med school wants that to be publicly known, right? (Because that basically defeats the purpose of P/F and would cause already competitive students to stay competitive/cutthroat)

Yep, as another commenter stated, MSAR usually answers. As for how it's weighed, you need to ask current students or faculty at the school. I've been asking students at the schools I'm considering about how it's weighed.