How long should the lock down last?

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It’s a brutal decision. How much do the young and healthy and working poor sacrifice for those at risk?

No easy answer in my opinion. Can’t be completely medical/can’t be completely political.


So which kids get kicked out of school to make that happen?
 
It’s a brutal decision. How much do the young and healthy and working poor sacrifice for those at risk?

No easy answer in my opinion. Can’t be completely medical/can’t be completely political.
Honestly I think what's happening now is about right. When this first started and we thought things were going to go to disastrously poorly like they did in Italy and Spain, it made sense to take exceptionally drastic action.

Now that most of the country is doing fine with it and has plenty of capacity, it makes sense to try and reopen things and see what happens.
 
Sad how many physicians get rhetoric from trump. A lot of people in this thread probably started prescribing plaquenil after trump first mentioned it. Lol. Imagine going to med school, doing residency, and then getting your perspective from Fox News and the Clorox President
 
"In March, when shelter-in-place orders were put in place in Michigan and other states, half of the victims seeking help from the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network's hotline were younger than 18 for the first time ever, the organization reported.

'Many minors are now quarantined at home with their abuser,' said Scott Berkowitz, RAINN’s president. 'Meanwhile, these kids are cut off from their safety net ― the teachers, coaches and friends’ parents who are most likely to notice and report suspected abuse.'"

 
OK fine. We have to keep everything shut down, and keep the kids home from school, and keep wrecking the economy so that people don't die. It's heartless to let people die. Makes sense. Except that it kind of doesn't. Because we as a society have always been fine with people dying in order for society to continue to function. In the time that most of us have been alive, close to a million people in this country have died from influenza. In the time that most of us have been alive, nearly 1.5 million people in this country have died in automobile accidents. So sit back and consider this for a minute. IN YOUR LIFETIME, AROUND 2.5 MILLION AMERICANS HAVE DIED JUST FROM INFLUENZA AND AUTOMOBILE ACCIDENTS ALONE (plus or minus depending on your age). Millions of lives gone that could have been easily prevented simply by shutting everything down every year from October to April, and shutting down all of the roads.

Now wait, you say. Covid is deadlier than the flu (true). It's killed more people in the US already than will be killed on the roads this year (true). But if this is your argument for continue a full shutdown over Covid and not over flu and traffic deaths, then what you're saying is that that you're OK with 65,000 or so senseless American deaths every year to keep your standard of living. But just not with more than that.

And so I would turn around and ask, why are you fine with my grandma dying of influenza so that you can keep your job, but not with yours dying of Covid so I can keep mine? Why are you fine with my friend dying on the road so that you can keep your standard of living, but not with your friend dying of Covid so I can keep mine?

Herein lies the ultimate problem. If feels like no one wants to sit down and do the hard job of saying: "OK, no one wants people to die. But at some point we have to accept some sort of trade-off, which in fact we've already been doing for years. And now we need to decide what that trade-off is for Covid. We continue to keep just the roads open at the expense of 40,000 lives yearly. What is the cost we are we willing to pay, not necessarily to get the economy roaring like it was again, but to avoid falling into a full-on depression?"

Of course god forbid someone does try to raise this topic, the great humanists (most of whom still have their jobs), come screeching out of the woodwork yelling "HOW LITERALLY DARE YOU! IF EVEN ONE LIFE IS SAVED THIS IS ALL WORTH IT". And you know what? They're a bunch of ****ing hypocrites. Because where have they been as people die on the roads? Where have they been as people die from the flu? Why do those lives not matter?

If only we weren't stuck with the nutjobs on one side screaming "We can't lose a single life!", and the nutjobs on the other side screaming "Everything has to go instantly back to what it was 3 months ago!", maybe we could actually sit down as adults and have this hard conversation, and figure out what we have to do and accept as a society to balance all of the considerations out.
Except that's exactly what's happening. States are opening up, some slowly and some more quickly. The rest of the country is watching to see how this goes, then each state or region (since some states have joined together and decided to act in concert) can decide what to do from there.
 
Except that's exactly what's happening. States are opening up, some slowly and some more quickly. The rest of the country is watching to see how this goes, then each state or region (since some states have joined together and decided to act in concert) can decide what to do from there.
Yes, I'm glad to see the "Reopen America" crowd has quietly won in most states and gradual reopenings have already started, slowly but surely. Apparently some people haven't noticed, as they think hiding forever is an option. But that's not even an option being entertained by anyone serious, anymore. The only debate left is the speed at which individual states and communities reopen. But it's happening.
 
"In March, when shelter-in-place orders were put in place in Michigan and other states, half of the victims seeking help from the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network's hotline were younger than 18 for the first time ever, the organization reported.

'Many minors are now quarantined at home with their abuser,' said Scott Berkowitz, RAINN’s president. 'Meanwhile, these kids are cut off from their safety net ― the teachers, coaches and friends’ parents who are most likely to notice and report suspected abuse.'"


True, this is a very valid point. We've known that during natural disasters rates of child abuse and sexual abuse go up as victims are basically locked in or traveling alone with their abusers (who are the majority of the time family members) and similarly cut off from any other social safety net. The internet is NOT a good social connection...abusers can very easily limit internet access.

People advocating for opening back up bring up very valid points. It was also my understanding that the whole point of the immediate lockdown was basically to prep hospitals and buy time for hospitals to get ready, not to quarantine indefinitely. Hospitals are running way below capacity in most parts of the country. Many more people are going to get coronavirus...it's inevitable. Eventually we need to start asking how many people's lives are we willing to ruin or end via suicide/drug overdose/abuse to keep things locked down.
 
Yes, I'm glad to see the "Reopen America" crowd has quietly won in most states and gradual reopenings have already started, slowly but surely. Apparently some people haven't noticed, as they think hiding forever is an option. But that's not even an option being entertained by anyone serious, anymore. The only debate left is the speed at which individual states and communities reopen. But it's happening.

It was never in dispute by most people.
 
It was never in dispute by most people.
I wonder about that. As @Mr. Hat noted above, there are some pretty loud voices out that saying that opening up any states at this time is a very bad idea (in my state the largest newspaper wrote an editorial saying exactly that last week).
 
I wonder about that. As @Mr. Hat noted above, there are some pretty loud voices out that saying that opening up any states at this time is a very bad idea (in my state the largest newspaper wrote an editorial saying exactly that last week).

They don't have a rational reason for why. If hospitals can handle an influx of new cases, then who cares if there is a spike in infections?
 
Policy makers are always 3 steps behind. I was all for mass PCR testing in Feb but now it’s useless outside of select populations with likely 10 million + infections.

what we need now is mass (reliable
antibody testing and studies confirming immunity.

I’m sure we can easily find 500 brave people who have had confirmed covid19, measured antibody levels and then knowingly expose themselves again. Study could be done in 3 weeks.

Then mass testing to see who’s really immune and let them go wild. Otherwise keep the high risk people quarantined and low risk back to work with some reasonable restrictions like universal masking on penalty of fines and no crowding in venues.

If only we had *someone* directing this chaos....
 
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The people who end up on a vent or the ones who die?

the only thing that stops this is a vaccine or early lockdown before the virus can spread to too many people to shut down the spread we were to late so the virus will be with us in the fall.

also do you have the nation on lockdown? Because other countries can travel to the US will we test everyone or just have everyone wear a mask.

It like saying we can stop flu through social distancing the virus will select to a less deadly strain so it can be around more.
 
[/QUOTE] I wonder about that. As @Mr. Hat noted above, there are some pretty loud voices out that saying that opening up any states at this time is a very bad idea (in my state the largest newspaper wrote an editorial saying exactly that last week).
[/QUOTE]

I think (as has been stated before on this thread) that things aren't quite as polarized as our discussions tend to make them seem. To my knowledge, no governor is calling for an indefinite quarantine, but rather a gradual reintroduction of societal norms, based on pre- determined goals.

It's not a matter of any group "winning", this has been the plan for some time, at least in my neck of the woods in the upper left corner.

Now, if some yahoo state blew the gates wide open with everything back to January level of concern, then yeah, I think there'd be a problem, but I haven't seen that, nor have I seen indefinite lockdown.

Middle ground.
 
I think (as has been stated before on this thread) that things aren't quite as polarized as our discussions tend to make them seem. To my knowledge, no governor is calling for an indefinite quarantine, but rather a gradual reintroduction of societal norms, based on pre- determined goals.
No objection to that, but my problem has been the shifting goalposts. "Adequate testing" and "Vaccines" are so far off as to be almost indefinite. I am not even convinced that testing helps the clinical picture, but rather is useful for epidemiological purposes.

Now, if some yahoo state blew the gates wide open with everything back to January level of concern, then yeah, I think there'd be a problem, but I haven't seen that, nor have I seen indefinite lockdown.

That will never happen. Even if a governor opens everything up now (which I support) the public is terrified and it will take months before they return to restaurants, bars and businesses. They will continue to self-isolate to a degree even if everything opens. This is what happened in Sweden.
 
OK fine. We have to keep everything shut down, and keep the kids home from school, and keep wrecking the economy so that people don't die. It's heartless to let people die. Makes sense. Except that it kind of doesn't. Because we as a society have always been fine with people dying in order for society to continue to function. In the time that most of us have been alive, close to a million people in this country have died from influenza. In the time that most of us have been alive, nearly 1.5 million people in this country have died in automobile accidents. So sit back and consider this for a minute. IN YOUR LIFETIME, AROUND 2.5 MILLION AMERICANS HAVE DIED JUST FROM INFLUENZA AND AUTOMOBILE ACCIDENTS ALONE (plus or minus depending on your age). Millions of lives gone that could have been easily prevented simply by shutting everything down every year from October to April, and shutting down all of the roads.

Now wait, you say. Covid is deadlier than the flu (true). It's killed more people in the US already than will be killed on the roads this year (true). But if this is your argument for continuing a full shutdown over Covid and not over flu and traffic deaths, then what you're saying is that that you're OK with 65,000 or so senseless American deaths every year to keep your standard of living. But just not with more than that.

And so I would turn around and ask, why are you fine with my grandma dying of influenza so that you can keep your job, but not with yours dying of Covid so I can keep mine? Why are you fine with my friend dying on the road so that you can keep your standard of living, but not with your friend dying of Covid so I can keep mine?

Herein lies the ultimate problem. If feels like no one wants to sit down and do the hard job of saying: "OK, no one wants people to die. But at some point we have to accept some sort of trade-off, which in fact we've already been doing for years. And now we need to decide what that trade-off is for Covid. We continue to keep just the roads open at the expense of 40,000 lives yearly. What is the cost we are we willing to pay, not necessarily to get the economy roaring like it was again, but to avoid falling into a full-on depression?"

Of course god forbid someone does try to raise this topic, the great humanists (most of whom still have their jobs), come screeching out of the woodwork yelling "HOW LITERALLY DARE YOU! IF EVEN ONE LIFE IS SAVED THIS IS ALL WORTH IT". And you know what? They're a bunch of ****ing hypocrites. Because where have they been as people die on the roads? Where have they been as people die from the flu? Why do those lives not matter?

If only we weren't stuck with the nutjobs on one side screaming "We can't lose a single life!", and the nutjobs on the other side screaming "Everything has to go instantly back to what it was 3 months ago!", maybe we could actually sit down as adults and have this hard conversation, and figure out what we have to do and accept as a society to balance all of the considerations out.

This is a pretty solid post in response to a bunch of nonsense i see on allo and elsewhere that argue for an indefinite shutdown until the vaccine's out.
 
Same link

View attachment 304324

It's apparently projected so it's probably a lot lower than what's seen here.

No one (I don't think) is advocating for a full immediate re-open of NYC. Outside of hotspots (NYC, NJ, maybe Boston? for right now aat least) I don't see anybody else running low in ICU beds or ventilators.

Ths should be handled, at minimum, on a state to state basis. We have to remember that even as things re-open gradually, the use of masks and routine social distancing will be protective when compared to "the old way". I do think that routine public mask usage a la China should be routine until we have a reliable vaccine, personally.
 
So a lot of people have mentioned the issue of re-opening should be on a state to state basis. This is understandable, as the burden of illness varies considerably from state to state. Just one issue with that. Is out of state travel going to be restricted? I don't think that can survive a constitutional challenge. So then, what if a bunch of people from NYC, or detroit, or New Orleans decide to up and leave to Florida or Texas? Is anyone going to monitor or quarantine them?
 
I wonder about that. As @Mr. Hat noted above, there are some pretty loud voices out that saying that opening up any states at this time is a very bad idea (in my state the largest newspaper wrote an editorial saying exactly that last week).
[/QUOTE]

I think (as has been stated before on this thread) that things aren't quite as polarized as our discussions tend to make them seem. To my knowledge, no governor is calling for an indefinite quarantine, but rather a gradual reintroduction of societal norms, based on pre- determined goals.

It's not a matter of any group "winning", this has been the plan for some time, at least in my neck of the woods in the upper left corner.

Now, if some yahoo state blew the gates wide open with everything back to January level of concern, then yeah, I think there'd be a problem, but I haven't seen that, nor have I seen indefinite lockdown.

Middle ground.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly.
 
So a lot of people have mentioned the issue of re-opening should be on a state to state basis. This is understandable, as the burden of illness varies considerably from state to state. Just one issue with that. Is out of state travel going to be restricted? I don't think that can survive a constitutional challenge. So then, what if a bunch of people from NYC, or detroit, or New Orleans decide to up and leave to Florida or Texas? Is anyone going to monitor or quarantine them?

That has been answered and there can be controls on interstate travel for the health safety of people. I read an article on that. If a state wants to quarantine people flying in from NYC or Detroit, the article I read suggested they can do that. Provided they do it to all people (not native NYC coming into the state, but even people who left the state, went to NYC, and come back).
 
I think (as has been stated before on this thread) that things aren't quite as polarized as our discussions tend to make them seem. To my knowledge, no governor is calling for an indefinite quarantine, but rather a gradual reintroduction of societal norms, based on pre- determined goals.

It's not a matter of any group "winning", this has been the plan for some time, at least in my neck of the woods in the upper left corner.

Now, if some yahoo state blew the gates wide open with everything back to January level of concern, then yeah, I think there'd be a problem, but I haven't seen that, nor have I seen indefinite lockdown.

Middle ground.
You could be right, I only have the view from my little corner of the world but when the governor here announced the plan to slowly start reopening... man, he got called all kids of names.

My suspicion is that its, to use RF's term, the Muggles who seem the most polarized by this. While most of us here disagree on specifics, we're all mostly on the same page give or take. Most governors as well are trying to balance medical needs with economic needs. But non-medical, non-scientist people seem to me have forgotten the point of the shutdown was to prevent hospitals from getting overwhelmed like Italy.
 
As many people have died from opiates as COVID, every year for the last ten years, and we haven't banned opiates.
 
My suspicion is that its, to use RF's term, the Muggles who seem the most polarized by this. While most of us here disagree on specifics, we're all mostly on the same page give or take. Most governors as well are trying to balance medical needs with economic needs. But non-medical, non-scientist people seem to me have forgotten the point of the shutdown was to prevent hospitals from getting overwhelmed like Italy.

You are so correct. I have a lot of non-medical friends, and when I talk to them, the amount of disinformation they have is incredible. A lot of 20-something friends are afraid to leave their house because they think the Rona is going to kill them if they go anywhere. Others believe we are getting a vaccine shortly, and are okay waiting at home until then. When I explain to them that their chances of dying from this are about 1 in 1000 or less, they look at me in disbelief and ask why all this was necessary.
 
People keep on saying well there’s no evidence that shows antibodies decrease the spread of the virus. Do we really need to take an immunology class your body produce antibodies for a reason how did your body clear the virus? How are you even going to make a vaccine? Answer these questions before going on there the antibody doesn’t do anything
 
People keep on saying well there’s no evidence that shows antibodies decrease the spread of the virus. Do we really need to take an immunology class your body produce antibodies for a reason how did your body clear the virus? How are you even going to make a vaccine? Answer these questions before going on there the antibody doesn’t do anything

Viruses can be cleared a number of ways, including through cytotoxic t cells, natural killer cells, and interferons. It does not always require a neutralizing antibody. The other question is, assuming the antibodies are neutralizing, how long is the immune response viable? If your immunity is permanent, great. If immunity wanes after 2 weeks, we've got a problem.
 
Viruses can be cleared a number of ways, including through cytotoxic t cells, natural killer cells, and interferons. It does not always require a neutralizing antibody. The other question is, assuming the antibodies are neutralizing, how long is the immune response viable? If your immunity is permanent, great. If immunity wanes after 2 weeks, we've got a problem.
If the SARS-COV-2 antibody response is anything like the SARS-COV-1 antibodies, those last 2-3 years.

"Our results provide strong evidence that SARS-CoV antibodies are reduced >3 years after the symptom onset. Because antibodies play an important role in protective immunity against SARS-CoV (15), the findings from this study will have important implications with regard to assessing risk for reinfection among previously exposed populations (e.g., hospital staff) and evaluating the duration of antibody-mediated immunity that any candidate vaccine could provide." -Emerg Infect Dis. 2007 Oct; 13(10): 1562–1564.
 
Viruses can be cleared a number of ways, including through cytotoxic t cells, natural killer cells, and interferons. It does not always require a neutralizing antibody. The other question is, assuming the antibodies are neutralizing, how long is the immune response viable? If your immunity is permanent, great. If immunity wanes after 2 weeks, we've got a problem.

Yes but all vaccines are based on an antibody response. We don't have an example of a virus that only gives you two weeks of immunity that causes death. If the virus is cleared in other ways you likely don't need to make a memory response. Meaning the virus won't do much harm to you like other coronviruses.

Yes things like C diff having antibodies doesn't mean jack but C diff is apart of your normal bowel microme so your body wouldn't attack it.
 
Because of lawyers and the people that pay them to sue.

This is an excuse that I hear a lot but never personally encounter. Keep in mind, before a malpractice lawsuit can be filed against a physician in most states, another physician must be willing to provide an affidavit that the care was negligent. So, if there is a problem in this arena, it has as much to with physicians who seem more than happy to make money performing expensive, life-sustaining care on those with end-stage disease.

Fortunately, I have yet to encounter a case where a lawsuit suit was filed against an EP for failing to render what they considered to be futile care on someone with end-stage or terminal illness (that includes dementia requiring NH care). I’d be curious to hear case specifics from anyone who has.
 
This is an excuse that I hear a lot but never personally encounter. Keep in mind, before a malpractice lawsuit can be filed against a physician in most states, another physician must be willing to provide an affidavit that the care was negligent. So, if there is a problem in this arena, it has as much to with physicians who seem more than happy to make money performing expensive, life-sustaining care on those with end-stage disease.

Fortunately, I have yet to encounter a case where a lawsuit suit was filed against an EP for failing to render what they considered to be futile care on someone with end-stage or terminal illness (that includes dementia requiring NH care). I’d be curious to hear case specifics from anyone who has.
We can get sued for anything and this falls under that umbrella. Yes, it takes doc to assist the attorneys by taking $1,000 to say your care was negligent to start a suit. It only takes a few docs to make a lucrative business of it and call it "legal consulting." We know who they are. One of them is on EM textbooks. His testimony was so bad, he got sanctioned by ACEP. But he couldn't have done it without an attorney, or a plaintiff. There's plenty of blame to go around.
 
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Yes but all vaccines are based on an antibody response. We don't have an example of a virus that only gives you two weeks of immunity that causes death. If the virus is cleared in other ways you likely don't need to make a memory response. Meaning the virus won't do much harm to you like other coronviruses.

Yes things like C diff having antibodies doesn't mean jack but C diff is apart of your normal bowel microme so your body wouldn't attack it.

That was once true but is no longer the case.
 
Reopening Schools

"Our investigation found no evidence of children infecting teachers....The findings...suggest that spread of COVID-19 within NSW schools has been very limited. SARS-CoV-2 transmission in children in schools appears considerably less than seen for other respiratory viruses, such as influenza... children are not the primary drivers of COVID-19 spread in schools or in the community. This is consistent with data from international studies showing low rates of disease in children and suggesting limited spread among children and from adults...children (aged <19 years) represent 4% of all cases of COVID-19 despite being approximately 23% of the population.” -NCIRS Australia
 
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Reopening Schools

"Our investigation found no evidence of children infecting teachers....The findings...suggest that spread of COVID-19 within NSW schools has been very limited. SARS-CoV-2 transmission in children in schools appears considerably less than seen for other respiratory viruses, such as influenza... children are not the primary drivers of COVID-19 spread in schools or in the community. This is consistent with data from international studies showing low rates of disease in children and suggesting limited spread among children and from adults...children (aged <19 years) represent 4% of all cases of COVID-19 despite being approximately 23% of the population.” -NCIRS Australia
I don't know about Australia, but here they just aren't testing kids under 12 so the numbers aren't going to be at all accurate.
 
As many people have died from opiates as COVID, every year for the last ten years, and we haven't banned opiates.

You are a genius. Let's just ban coronavirus!

Comparing the number of deaths from opiates (btw COVID-19 will outpace yearly deaths from overdoses in ~3 months)to that of COVID-19 is quite dumb. It is literally a logical fallacy...probably actually qualifies for a few of those. I bet the Giuliani segment on Fox News when he was asking why there is no contact tracing for heart disease really struck a cord with you.
 
You are a genius. Let's just ban coronavirus!

Comparing the number of deaths from opiates (btw COVID-19 will outpace yearly deaths from overdoses in ~3 months)to that of COVID-19 is quite dumb. It is literally a logical fallacy...probably actually qualifies for a few of those. I bet the Giuliani segment on Fox News when he was asking why there is no contact tracing for heart disease really struck a cord with you.
You want to reduce deaths from COVID but welcome all others. Someone give this man a lollipop for honesty.
 
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We should go on lockdown for the opiate problem. Seeing how it’s an infectious disease and all.
Have COVID deaths gotten high enough for you to be "right" yet, so we can get back to being happy go lucky Deadhead friends?
 
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Well I predicted 25-50K over 2 years, and we will double that in a total of 5-6 months based on current projections.

I just shudder to think that we would have had 2.2 million dead in America if we didn’t do anything. Imagine that. But we did, we took action, and now we will come out of this with 100K dead.

Markets are happy, now we just need to get some people back to work.
 
Well I predicted 25-50K over 2 years, and we will double that in a total of 5-6 months based on current projections.

I just shudder to think that we would have had 2.2 million dead in America if we didn’t do anything. Imagine that. But we did, we took action, and now we will come out of this with 100K dead.

Markets are happy, now we just need to get some people back to work.
Amen, brutha
 
Have COVID deaths gotten high enough for you to be "right" yet, so we can get back to being happy go lucky Deadhead friends?

Aside from one tiny topic out of hundreds on this forum where I disagree with you, I agree with the other 98 percentish or thereabouts. That should be celebrated! Who the fruck cares if we disagree on this one issue.

Just imagine how functional the government would be if they had even 1/10th of our agreement.

I just want you to include fetuses, other biped animals, and just thrown in 4 legged creatures as well with your forthcoming survival/death percentages as we now have tigers positive with coronavirus at zoos.
 
Aside from one tiny topic out of hundreds on this forum where I disagree with you, I agree with the other 98 percentish or thereabouts. That should be celebrated! Who the fruck cares if we disagree on this one issue.

Just imagine how functional the government would be if they had even 1/10th of our agreement.

I just want you to include fetuses, other biped animals, and just thrown in 4 legged creatures as well with your forthcoming survival/death percentages as we now have tigers positive with coronavirus at zoos.
Amen
 
Aside from one tiny topic out of hundreds on this forum where I disagree with you, I agree with the other 98 percentish or thereabouts. That should be celebrated! Who the fruck cares if we disagree on this one issue.

Just imagine how functional the government would be if they had even 1/10th of our agreement.

I just want you to include fetuses, other biped animals, and just thrown in 4 legged creatures as well with your forthcoming survival/death percentages as we now have tigers positive with coronavirus at zoos.

Our disagreements mainly stem from questions of judgement calls. Most of us agree on the key details:

1. We have a serious respiratory virus that is widespread in the community
2. Mortality rate will be between 0.1 and 0.5%
3. The virus heavily targets the old, the sick, and the obese
4. Infection and recovery likely grants an unknown degree of immunity
5. This is going to be around for many months to come, possibly years.

Where we disagree is whether or not herd immunity versus social-distancing is a better strategy, and whether or not 100K-300K American lives is worth putting 40 million out of work. We also disagree as to the degree the government has the right to infringe on personal liberties to combat this.
 
Our disagreements mainly stem from questions of judgement calls. Most of us agree on the key details:

1. We have a serious respiratory virus that is widespread in the community
2. Mortality rate will be between 0.1 and 0.5%
3. The virus heavily targets the old, the sick, and the obese
4. Infection and recovery likely grants an unknown degree of immunity
5. This is going to be around for many months to come, possibly years.

Where we disagree is whether or not herd immunity versus social-distancing is a better strategy, and whether or not 100K-300K American lives is worth putting 40 million out of work. We also disagree as to the degree the government has the right to infringe on personal liberties to combat this.

This is an amazing summary of a 10 page thread!
 
I saw a patient today that I know well. She seemed a little depressed. I asked, "What's wrong?"

With her slow southern drawl she said, "I turned on the TV before I came here and found out they've decided to let everyone over 70 just die!"
 
I saw a patient today that I know well. She seemed a little depressed. I asked, "What's wrong?"

With her slow southern drawl she said, "I turned on the TV before I came here and found out they've decided to let everyone over 70 just die!"

This is the main problem with the liberal media as I see it. Trump gives them plenty of legitimate ammunition when he opens his mouth. He is way out of his depth, narcissistic, self-absorbed, defensive and paranoid. Exactly the qualities you don't want in a leader. However, when the media start accusing him of state sponsored genocide and say he has the blood of thousands on his hands they undermine their own position immensely.
 
I don't think it's really a fair or accurate statement to say that he/she "welcomes" all other deaths...seems somewhat of a non sequitur.

Yeah it is another example of a straw man too. However he hasn't really worried about accuracy since he predicted this virus would be in the media for "a week" just a couple months back. I will welcome re-opening with open arms if it means he has less time for SDN posting.
 
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