How long should the lock down last?

[Birdstrike]

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Why are you quoting an opinion article that was accepted for publication in March?

The latest contact tracing data from 10k households in SK shows that kids are as infectious as anyone under 40: Contact Tracing during Coronavirus Disease Outbreak, South Korea, 2020

Show me where those authors, who are Peds ID docs, have changed their minds. Otherwise, it stands. Now on to your article...

“We also found the highest COVID-19 rate (18.6% [95% CI 14.0%–24.0%]) for household contacts of school-aged children and the lowest (5.3% [95% CI 1.3%–13.7%]) for household contacts of children 0–9 years in the middle of school closure. Despite closure of their schools, these children might have interacted with each other, although we do not have data to support that hypothesis....For most age groups, COVID-19 was detected in significantly more household than nonhousehold contacts.”

Great article. It says they don’t have data to support their own (and your) hypothesis of interaction and consequential spread in schools. But they do have data to support the highest rate of spread occurs at home, where you want to make kids stay.

“Keep kids home where spread is highest. Cuz Science!”

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Show me where those authors, who are Peds ID docs, have changed their minds. Otherwise, it stands. Now on to your article...

“We also found the highest COVID-19 rate (18.6% [95% CI 14.0%–24.0%]) for household contacts of school-aged children and the lowest (5.3% [95% CI 1.3%–13.7%]) for household contacts of children 0–9 years in the middle of school closure. Despite closure of their schools, these children might have interacted with each other, although we do not have data to support that hypothesis....For most age groups, COVID-19 was detected in significantly more household than nonhousehold contacts.”

Great article. It says they don’t have data to support their own (and your) hypothesis of interaction and consequential spread in schools. But they do have data to support the highest rate of spread occurs at home, where you want to make kids stay.

“Keep kids home where spread is highest. Cuz Science!”

It also says that children under 10 have the lowest household transmission rate of all age groups...

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

Show me where those authors, who are Peds ID docs, have changed their minds. Otherwise, it stands. Now on to your article...

“We also found the highest COVID-19 rate (18.6% [95% CI 14.0%–24.0%]) for household contacts of school-aged children and the lowest (5.3% [95% CI 1.3%–13.7%]) for household contacts of children 0–9 years in the middle of school closure. Despite closure of their schools, these children might have interacted with each other, although we do not have data to support that hypothesis....For most age groups, COVID-19 was detected in significantly more household than nonhousehold contacts.”

Great article. It says they don’t have data to support their own (and your) hypothesis of interaction and consequential spread in schools. But they do have data to support the highest rate of spread occurs at home, where you want to make kids stay.

“Keep kids home where spread is highest. Cuz Science!”

Do you know how to interpret research? Just look at Table 2. Nonhousehold transmission is equal across all age groups under 40. Therefore, if adults are subject to movement restrictions, kids should be too.

 

[Birdstrike]

Just look at Table 2. Nonhousehold transmission is equal across all age groups under 40. Therefore, if adults are subject to movement restrictions, kids should be too.

I think you're interpreting it incorrectly. However, I don't think it actually matters. People are going to get COVID-19. My kids still need an education. And if the little old lady at Walmart can wear a mask at work and be available throughout a pandemic to sell TP to teachers while 1,000 people pass by her per day, then teachers can mask up and show up to do their jobs, too. Or they can quit and not get paid. We're all in the same boat. No special exemptions. Or refund my tax dollars for education. Period. End of story.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Do you know how to interpret research? Just look at Table 2. Nonhousehold transmission is equal across all age groups under 40. Therefore, if adults are subject to movement restrictions, kids should be too.

The difference is the tiny N for the under 10 group. It has the largest confidence interval of all groups by a substantial margin.

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

I think you're interpreting it incorrectly. However, I don't think it actually matters. People are going to get COVID-19. My kids still need an education. And if the little old lady at Walmart can wear a mask at work and be available throughout a pandemic to sell TP to teachers while 1,000 people pass by her per day, then teachers can mask up and show up to do their jobs, too. Or they can quit and not get paid. We're all in the same boat. No special exemptions. Or refund my tax dollars for education. Period. End of story.

Local governments only owe your kids minimally acceptable education, which they are providing with online classes.

Plenty of childless people pay taxes for services they never receive. No one owes you in-person education. I’m sure you’ll make do!

 

[Birdstrike]

Local governments only owe your kids minimally acceptable education, which they are providing with online classes.

Plenty of childless people pay taxes for services they never receive. No one owes you in-person education. I’m sure you’ll make do!

Spoken like a true communist. “Pay taxes, get s**t!”

 

[Apollyon]

Spoken like a true communist. “Pay taxes, get s**t!”

****, shot, same thing to the commies!

 

[Siggy]

You aren’t making the right case here. Pointing to extreme examples isn’t helping- lockdowns refer to blanket closure of non essential businesses. I’m not advocating mass gathering events should reopen. I’m talking about “non essential” small businesses like clothing stores being shutdown. Can you explain why you think closing those help? Why would you support forced unemployment and bankruptcy when that doesn’t stop any spread? Again, mask wearing is the only thing that works now for us. People will do it or they don’t. Closing the economy doesn’t change that.

I agree that non-mass gathering/social environment businesses should be able to open at reduced capacity. Of course the anti-lockdown crowd tends to advocate open everything, no restrictions.

What's your plan when hospitals are over 200% ICU capacity, besides letting people die? My ICU has been at over 200% since I started on July 1st. Opening up packed restaurants and movie theaters does nothing but help spread the virus. Opening up sports arenas does nothing to help stop the spread... We could do local restrictions, but we have no where near the per-capita testing or the turn around to support that and there's no appitite in the current Federal political apparatus to change any of that.

People want everything open, no restrictions, no test and trace, and magically infinite hospital beds and zero deaths. That's simple fantasy.

 

[Siggy]

My only choice is Trump vs anarchy? Or Trump vs Marxism? There is not a single other alternative? Not even one?

We could chose the one that isn't praising his supporters that are shouting "white power."

 

[Siggy]

A start would be a government run by people who believe that we should have a government, as opposed to people like Rick Perry who was appointed to run an agency that he said he intended to shut down, but then couldn't remember the name of.

You mean people who actually know what their agency does? I mean... even I knew that the Department of Energy was responsible for nuclear weapons.

Oops: Did Rick Perry Realize He’d Be In Charge of America’s Nukes?

As it turns out, the Department of Energy has little to do with oil, as Perry may have assumed, and everything to do with overseeing America’s vast, and terrifying, nuclear arsenal.

www.vanityfair.com

 

[Siggy]

Why would cultural venues be closed? It's far better to massively ramp up test, trace and isolate plans and heavily utilize steroids and remdesivir while keeping everything open.

...because 'mah freedum' trumps science and contact tracing.

 

[deleted480308]

I agree that non-mass gathering/social environment businesses should be able to open at reduced capacity. Of course the anti-lockdown crowd tends to advocate open everything, no restrictions.

What's your plan when hospitals are over 200% ICU capacity, besides letting people die? My ICU has been at over 200% since I started on July 1st. Opening up packed restaurants and movie theaters does nothing but help spread the virus. Opening up sports arenas does nothing to help stop the spread... We could do local restrictions, but we have no where near the per-capita testing or the turn around to support that and there's no appitite in the current Federal political apparatus to change any of that.

People want everything open, no restrictions, no test and trace, and magically infinite hospital beds and zero deaths. That's simple fantasy.

I don’t think it’s the govts job to guarantee enough icu beds for a pandemic. Tell everyone to set their own risk tolerance, that includes the risks of getting the disease, the risks that you need an icu and the risks that there is a bed available for you. If you roll those dice and lose, that was your choice

 

[Torsion]

I don’t think it’s the govts job to guarantee enough icu beds for a pandemic. Tell everyone to set their own risk tolerance, that includes the risks of getting the disease, the risks that you need an icu and the risks that there is a bed available for you. If you roll those dice and lose, that was your choice

I think the risk tolerance argument is fair as long as the above mentioned scenario isn't prevalent. Not everyone has the luxury of choosing whether to expose themselves to the virus, us most of all. We are basically exposed to this virus on a daily basis in the ED. The more people that come in with the virus the more potential viral load we are exposed to. I accept the risk as part of my job, but if I happen to get a very bad case of this infection and need ventilatory support, there better damn well be a ventilator available and I do believe it is our government's job to help ensure that. I would think that even a libertarian like yourself would agree that protecting the life, liberty and property of the citizenry is primary function of government. This falls squarely in that category.

 

[thegenius]

I think you're interpreting it incorrectly. However, I don't think it actually matters. People are going to get COVID-19. My kids still need an education. And if the little old lady at Walmart can wear a mask at work and be available throughout a pandemic to sell TP to teachers while 1,000 people pass by her per day, then teachers can mask up and show up to do their jobs, too. Or they can quit and not get paid. We're all in the same boat. No special exemptions. Or refund my tax dollars for education. Period. End of story.

 

[Nobutyesbutno]

Local governments only owe your kids minimally acceptable education, which they are providing with online classes.

Plenty of childless people pay taxes for services they never receive. No one owes you in-person education. I’m sure you’ll make do!

Spoken like a true communist. “Pay taxes, get s**t!”

Err... not really like a true communist. Thomas Paine made exactly that point about taxes as Che above in the rights of man (1791) A somewhat seminal figure in the history of and practical development of political theory re: Merica....

Arguments about taxes led to the revolution.... oh forget it.... where did you go to school again...

Sheesh.....

 

[deleted480308]

I think the risk tolerance argument is fair as long as the above mentioned scenario isn't prevalent. Not everyone has the luxury of choosing whether to expose themselves to the virus, us most of all. We are basically exposed to this virus on a daily basis in the ED. The more people that come in with the virus the more potential viral load we are exposed to. I accept the risk as part of my job, but if I happen to get a very bad case of this infection and need ventilatory support, there better damn well be a ventilator available and I do believe it is our government's job to help ensure that. I would think that even a libertarian like yourself would agree that protecting the life, liberty and property of the citizenry is primary function of government. This falls squarely in that category.

No. I don’t think ensuring the surge supply of expensive medical care by restricting personal freedom is job of the govt

I think social distancing and masking are good ideas and people should do them voluntarily. I don’t think it should be enforced

 

[Rekt]

No. I don’t think ensuring the surge supply of expensive medical care by restricting personal freedom is job of the govt

I think social distancing and masking are good ideas and people should do them voluntarily. I don’t think it should be enforced

I agree. Why should it be other people's jobs to police other people's risk tolerance? I don't really care about m**ks. I wear one. If you're scared, stay home.

 

[TeddyBoomBoom]

I’m just reasonably sad that we are now sending hospital data away from the cdc...to the White House... whose president legit 100% TOOK A SHARPIE TO A WEATHER MAP. Ffffffff.

 

[Siggy]

I don’t think it’s the govts job to guarantee enough icu beds for a pandemic. Tell everyone to set their own risk tolerance, that includes the risks of getting the disease, the risks that you need an icu and the risks that there is a bed available for you. If you roll those dice and lose, that was your choice

Why have laws against drunk driving? You know that people drive drunk... so if you decide to get on the road with drunk drivers and one slams into your car, too bad. You should have had a higher risk tolerance than that.

There's a difference between libertarian and anarchy.

This also assumes that hospitals are reporting data properly. My hospital is currently reporting 3 open ICU beds... we have converted a med/surg unit to a 22+ bed ICU with transport monitors in the rooms. I just looked at our ED tracker. 12 ICU patients holding with in ED times ranging from 3 hours to 2 days, 12 hours. 5 of these patients have been in the ED greater than 24 hours.

 

[deleted480308]

Why have laws against drunk driving? You know that people drive drunk... so if you decide to get on the road with drunk drivers and one slams into your car, too bad. You should have had a higher risk tolerance than that.

There's a difference between libertarian and anarchy.

This also assumes that hospitals are reporting data properly. My hospital is currently reporting 3 open ICU beds... we have converted a med/surg unit to a 22+ bed ICU with transport monitors in the rooms. I just looked at our ED tracker. 12 ICU patients holding with in ED times ranging from 3 hours to 2 days, 12 hours. 5 of these patients have been in the ED greater than 24 hours.

I'm gonna go ahead and reject your proposed equivalency between a known intoxicated driver and a not known to be infected adult going to walmart or church.

 

[Siggy]

I'm gonna go ahead and reject your proposed equivalency between a known intoxicated driver and a not known to be infected adult going to walmart or church.

There's an outcome equivalence there, not necessarily a moral equivalence. If you're going to play the " Shanna, they bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash" card, then it doesn't matter what the moral equivalence is.

By the way, what should happen to someone who has either a known infection or symptoms consistant with SARS-CoV-2 who decides to go out into the world, especially sans mask?

 

[TwoHighways]

I kinda like it when there’s dissension in the ranks. Really forces people to sharpen the arguments/ideas they put forth. American as ****! It’s why I’ll go down swinging a musket like Dave Crocket at the friggen Alamo in defense of free discourse. And I’ll do so sporting a kilt like William Wallace, yelling freedom at the top of my lungs, with one of those cup holder hats with straws and two Budweisers, and my pet eagle named Liberty perched on my shoulder.

 

[thegenius]

Why have laws against drunk driving? You know that people drive drunk... so if you decide to get on the road with drunk drivers and one slams into your car, too bad. You should have had a higher risk tolerance than that.

There's a difference between libertarian and anarchy.

This also assumes that hospitals are reporting data properly. My hospital is currently reporting 3 open ICU beds... we have converted a med/surg unit to a 22+ bed ICU with transport monitors in the rooms. I just looked at our ED tracker. 12 ICU patients holding with in ED times ranging from 3 hours to 2 days, 12 hours. 5 of these patients have been in the ED greater than 24 hours.

what city or metropolitan area? Without giving away too much where you work?

 

[deleted480308]

There's an outcome equivalence there, not necessarily a moral equivalence. If you're going to play the " Shanna, they bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash" card, then it doesn't matter what the moral equivalence is.

By the way, what should happen to someone who has either a known infection or symptoms consistant with SARS-CoV-2 who decides to go out into the world, especially sans mask?

Other than public scorn? This is a bad disease but this isn’t ebola

 

[d2305]

The CDC is a goat rodeo.

 

[Birdstrike]

If you're scared, stay home.

Yes, self-quarantining remains an option to reduce any individual's to near zero. But, the Shutdown Forever crowd isn't all about "safety" or "self-sacrifice," although appearing so is their goal. Beyond hand washing, mask wearing and basic precautions the vast majority already agree with, what they really want is everyone else to sacrifice so they can go on with life as usual, seas parted, virus halted for them.

None of these people are staying home, quitting their jobs or "shutting down" their lives. They haven't even stopped mixing in pictures of mask-less social activities with their shutdown shame-posts, online.

 

[Birdstrike]

"Schools must stay closed or children & teachers will die!"

But if you rename them "Regional Enrichment Centers" they can stay open in a hot-zone with no problem, virus neutralized, per CNN. Just don't call it a "school," because schools must stay closed!

"SCIENCE!"

Hmmm.......

Source: CNN

 

[WilcoWorld]

"Schools must stay closed or children & teachers will die!"

But if you rename them "Regional Enrichment Centers" they can stay open in a hot-zone with no problem, virus neutralized, per CNN. Just don't call it a "school," because schools must stay closed!

"SCIENCE!"





View attachment 313394View attachment 313395

Hmmm.......

Source: CNN

Something must be wrong here!

You've said yourself that everyone in the Democratic Party "from top to bottom" wants society to remain "shutdown" until Trump is out of office and that in the interest of this the liberal media won't publish any good news about COVID. But here's CNN, obviously the most evil Trump-haters in the universe, publishing a story with good news that might inform how society can return to school.

Has CNN been infiltrated?

 

[Birdstrike]

Has CNN been infiltrated?

Let me make sure I follow you: A mole is inside CNN and knows that to do some good, she/he has to stay undercover and use trickery to write some stories that help get schools reopened?

Maybe! . It is 2020, after all.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Something must be wrong here!

You've said yourself that everyone in the Democratic Party "from top to bottom" wants society to remain "shutdown" until Trump is out of office and that in the interest of this the liberal media won't publish any good news about COVID. But here's CNN, obviously the most evil Trump-haters in the universe, publishing a story with good news that might inform how society can return to school.

Has CNN been infiltrated?

I'm not sure how that story made it through their editors. Probably someone will lose their job over this (see the Tom Cotton op ed story).

At any rate, no amount of evidence will convince the school unions and Democrat school boards to re-open schools in many states/localities.

Their minds are made up, just like with "systemic racism" and no evidence, stats, or facts will alter their narrative.

 

[Nobutyesbutno]

Remember the golden rules now...

- rich people are motivated to work harder when you pay them even more

- the less well paid like teachers get more motivated to work harder the less you pay them....

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

Interesting. And what motivates the McDonald’s employee who makes 1/4 of what a teacher makes, who is forced to continue working if they want to get paid, because apparently Big Macs are essential but our children are not?

Indoor dining is closed in many states, so McDonald's workers aren't exposed to customers. What's your point again?

 

[Nobutyesbutno]

Interesting. And what motivates the McDonald’s employee who makes 1/4 of what a teacher makes, who is forced to continue working if they want to get paid, because apparently Big Macs are essential but our children are not?

You're missing the point on purpose. Clearly McDonald's employees many of whom are on zero hours contracts get to turn up to work and sit around earning nothing and doing nothing except be held hostage until there is something to do. By paying them nothing they are the most highly motivated workers of all....!!

Its all set out beautifully in Adam Smiths the wealth of nations... the invisible hand of the market place is a truly wonderful thing...

Who knew it was showing EVERYONE the middle finger all along.... who knew....

 

[WilcoWorld]

Caution: The following is not a methodologically rigorous sample.

@Mr. Hat - to answer your hypotheticals above:

1) If I were offered a telemed job at equal pay to my in-person job I would say "no thanks". I derive significant satisfaction & meaning from interacting with patients. I spent a month doing telemed hospice and couldn't wait to get back to seeing people in person. When I returned to the ED after fellowship I found it invigorating and fun.

2) The 2 teachers I've spoken with (sis in law - high school, friend - junior high) both say that they miss the kids & that they would prefer going back to teaching in person to doing remote learning. They simply want a plan in place that has more details than "The schools must open! Open the schools."

Contrary to popular narrative not all people are motivated by the question "how can I make the most money while doing the least work?" I know several posters here think I'm dumb or naïve for thinking this - I'm OK with that.

 

[Apollyon]

Caution: The following is not a methodologically rigorous sample.

@Mr. Hat - to answer your hypotheticals above:

1) If I were offered a telemed job at equal pay to my in-person job I would say "no thanks". I derive significant satisfaction & meaning from interacting with patients. I spent a month doing telemed hospice and couldn't wait to get back to seeing people in person. When I returned to the ED after fellowship I found it invigorating and fun.

2) The 2 teachers I've spoken with (sis in law - high school, friend - junior high) both say that they miss the kids & that they would prefer going back to teaching in person to doing remote learning. They simply want a plan in place that has more details than "The schools must open! Open the schools."

Contrary to popular narrative not all people are motivated by the question "how can I make the most money while doing the least work?" I know several posters here think I'm dumb or naïve for thinking this - I'm OK with that.

I'm not being a fanboi, but, if anyone here thought you were dumb, I would challenge that person - right now - to show me why. Naïve? Nah. I think "reasonably idealistic" is most àpropos.

 

[Nobutyesbutno]

Caution: The following is not a methodologically rigorous sample.

@Mr. Hat -

Contrary to popular narrative not all people are motivated by the question "how can I make the most money while doing the least work?" I know several posters here think I'm dumb or naïve for thinking this - I'm OK with that.

Exactly. Teachers are mostly that type of person - not motivated by money and greed. Posters suggesting that they are trying to stay home on purpose to get paid for doing nothing are just projecting their own motivations on to them because that's what they would do.

 

[Birdstrike]

Interesting. And what motivates the McDonald’s employee who makes 1/4 of what a teacher makes, who is forced to continue working if they want to get paid, because apparently Big Macs are essential but our children are not?

Teacher: "How dare you ask me to go to work during a pandemic! Uhh! (head snap)"

Teacher: "Need anything at Walmart? I just placed an online order for some ice cream, laxatives and six months of toilet paper which will be brought out by the same 70-year-old lady who's been working overtime serving me throughout the whole pandemic. Poor sucker."

Science!

 

[Birdstrike]

2) The 2 teachers I've spoken with (sis in law - high school, friend - junior high) both say that they miss the kids & that they would prefer going back to teaching in person to doing remote learning. They simply want a plan in place that has more details than "The schools must open! Open the schools."

Here's the plan. If you expect me to show up with a mask on and be you and your kid's doctor during COVID, you can show up with a mask on and teach my kid during COVID. That's the plan. Accept plan, get paid. Refuse plan, quit job, don't get paid. Any questions?

 

[Nobutyesbutno]

Teacher: "How dare you ask me to go to work during a pandemic! Uhh! (head snap)"

Teacher: "Need anything at Walmart? I just placed an online order for some ice cream, laxatives and six months of toilet paper which will be brought out by the same 70-year-old lady who's been working overtime serving me throughout the whole pandemic. Poor sucker."

Science!

Posts the guy who just wants to get back to eating in his favorite restaurant.

How about paying the little old lady in Walmart a living wage and paying the teachers properly.

*it wasn't long ago you were demanding RTCs and dismissing clinical experience as mere anecdote. Now your're justifying your opinions with made up fantasies.

 

[Apollyon]

Teacher: "How dare you ask me to go to work during a pandemic! Uhh! (head snap)"

Teacher: "Need anything at Walmart? I just placed an online order for some ice cream, laxatives and six months of toilet paper which will be brought out by the same 70-year-old lady who's been working overtime serving me throughout the whole pandemic. Poor sucker."

Science!

I am being completely serious here: did you see the notice pop up for the modification of the "Visions and Values"? This is the salient point:

"Members support the scientific method and evidence-based medicine. Claims or statements about disease processes should reference widely accepted scientific resources. Theoretical medical speculation is encouraged as part of the overall scientific process. However, unscientific statements that promote unfounded ideological positions or agendas may be removed. For example, a post stating that ‘HIV was created by the CIA’ or ‘mask use is ineffective at reducing the spread of COVID-19’ will be removed."

That is #10. Politics have invaded. I think that it is somewhat telling that one of the examples is a timely reference to masks. At the same time, though, what is now "unfounded" may just as yet only be "undiscovered" - I mean, "The US government is infecting black folks with syphilis!" That can't be true! Oh, wait... Or, infiltrating political groups. Or, "the CIA doesn't drug or poison US citizens!"

 

[Nobutyesbutno]

I am being completely serious here: did you see the notice pop up for the modification of the "Visions and Values"? This is the salient point:

"Members support the scientific method and evidence-based medicine. Claims or statements about disease processes should reference widely accepted scientific resources. Theoretical medical speculation is encouraged as part of the overall scientific process. However, unscientific statements that promote unfounded ideological positions or agendas may be removed. For example, a post stating that ‘HIV was created by the CIA’ or ‘mask use is ineffective at reducing the spread of COVID-19’ will be removed."

That is #10. Politics have invaded. I think that it is somewhat telling that one of the examples is a timely reference to masks. At the same time, though, what is now "unfounded" may just as yet only be "undiscovered" - I mean, "The US government is infecting black folks with syphilis!" That can't be true! Oh, wait... Or, infiltrating political groups. Or, "the CIA doesn't drug or poison US citizens!"

Interesting point esp re: operation midnight climax et al . I doubt we are going to subsequently find out masks are ineffective though.

The question in the thread title is inherently political though.... sooooo

 

[AMEHigh]

Exactly. Teachers are mostly that type of person - not motivated by money and greed. Posters suggesting that they are trying to stay home on purpose to get paid for doing nothing are just projecting their own motivations on to them because that's what they would do.

Also, I’m confused because even if school isn’t in person and it’s going to be online which teachers are still going to have to teach. The spring was obviously an "experiment" in some places with not rigorous teaching going on since we’re in an unplanned pandemic, but all the teachers I know that taught online during the spring were still working hard. So why are people saying that teachers are going to be sitting at home doing nothing? Are there districts putting out plans with no teaching at all?

If anything I assume teaching online is going to be harder since it’s brand new just like I feel like telemedicine can be pretty difficult as well.

 

[Apollyon]

Interesting point esp re: operation midnight climax et al . I doubt we are going to subsequently find out masks are ineffective though.

The question in the thread title is inherently political though.... sooooo

Oh, I concur. I was just giving some perspective. As for the political question...

 

[deleted480308]

Posts the guy who just wants to get back to eating in his favorite restaurant.

How about paying the little old lady in Walmart a living wage and paying the teachers properly.

*it wasn't long ago you were demanding RTCs and dismissing clinical experience as mere anecdote. Now your're justifying your opinions with made up fantasies.

Only great teachers are underpaid, a ton of them are overpaid

 

[Birdstrike]

🤣🤣🤣

This spring my kids’ teachers literally, and yes I mean literally, were required to be online with their classes for less than 5 HOURS PER WEEK. None of my kids received more than 2.5 hours per day of total education including the assignments they had to do. Zero assignments were ever graded and returned. Emails to teachers were ignored. Incidentally I pay over $12,000 a year in property and income taxes to my school district.

Spring "remote school" for my kids:

Wake up, whenever. Log in, in pajamas in bed. Do 1 hour of work, max (often less). Optional "zoom meeting" with teacher, which my kid did once, realized it was lame and she was one of two kids, and logged off after 5 minutes. Done in 1 hour and 5 minutes for the whole day. No way in Hell teachers were putting in an 8 hour work day, if my kid was condensing 8 hrs into 1, and getting 100% on every assignment for the whole quarter.

Fun fact: 450 kids in our district could not be contacted by email, phone or letter, and never logged in for the whole quarter of remote "school." Teachers were told, "Just give them the same grade they had in the 3rd quarter and pass them."

But that's all been proven great for kids, for families, and terrible for teachers. Science!

 

[Birdstrike]

It seems to me the teachers are playing a very dangerous game and they don't even seem to realize. It reminds me of the game of chicken the air traffic controllers tried in the '80s with President Reagan. They all threatened to stroke, which would have crashed the entire system of air travel to the ground. You know what President Reagan do? Did he cave? Did he negotiate with them? In a total boss move, he fired them all.

Oops. They didn't see that comin'.

Teachers may be risking a similar fate with their Governors and school boards. As hard as they argued that their being in the classroom in not essential, they risk their positions being eliminated and risk being replaced with the online school they said could do their jobs for them.

 

[AMEHigh]

🤣🤣🤣

This spring my kids’ teachers literally, and yes I mean literally, were required to be online with their classes for less than 5 HOURS PER WEEK. None of my kids received more than 2.5 hours per day of total education including the assignments they had to do. Zero assignments were ever graded and returned. Emails to teachers were ignored. Incidentally I pay over $12,000 a year in property and income taxes to my school district.

Yes I said that in the spring remote learning in some areas was "experimental," as you described, but in other areas it wasn't. I know several teachers who were teaching full classes. Just like the health system, some places switched to telemedicine rather seamlessly, while others didn't. To be expected since we're in an unplanned pandemic.

There's no indication from what I've seen in regards to remote learning that teachers wouldn't be working, but obviously I don't know every single thing about every single school district. Just in general the teachers that I've talked with are already working on figuring out best practices for online learning if that is what their school system is doing. I'm open to other evidence that teachers are going to be sitting at home doing nothing if that's what is widely happening.

 

[AMEHigh]

I don't think it's insane that teachers and other workers are concerned about their health in areas where percent positive cases are 20-50%. Health experts recommend that percent positive rates should be under 5%. Why not focus on lowering the community spread and then schools will be fine to open. I don't think the schools that opened in most of europe were during periods while the percent positive cases were at 50%.

 

[deleted480308]

Khan academy on YouTube is better than half my teachers ever were