How long would It take for a new dentist to pay off their student debt?

[allDAT]

I find that surprising to hear. The first 4 years out I averaged around 200k as an associate or ~$10,500/mo after taxes. The corp I worked at provided benefits, mal practice, and disability. On a 5 year repayment plan ($5,600/month) you would have ~4900/month left, or $58,800 per year of aftertax money for living. To put this in perspective, the average income in the US is 60k pretax. Assuming that you graduate dental school at 26, you could be a debt free earning >200k/yr at 31. That's not so bad, really.

Most associates during their first full year out of school (this would be their 2nd tax return) do not make 200k. I’d venture to say that most associates don’t make 200k within their first 5 years of practice. This is largely a function of where they practice.

For associates, especially corporate associates, the data on BLS is accurate because they’re just a W2 and that’s reported to the IRS and used for the calculations there (where owner draw/profit would not be included).

The average income isn’t necessarily relevant when looking at the entire country. You would want to look at where the associate practices. There, the average family income may be six figures.

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[Rvting]

I find that surprising to hear. The first 4 years out I averaged around 200k as an associate or ~$10,500/mo after taxes. The corp I worked at provided benefits, mal practice, and disability. On a 5 year repayment plan ($5,600/month) you would have ~4900/month left, or $58,800 per year of aftertax money for living. To put this in perspective, the average income in the US is 60k pretax. Assuming that you graduate dental school at 26, you could be a debt free earning >200k/yr at 31. That's not so bad, really.

Really, I find far fewer resources saying the typical dentist receives around 200k, as a matter of fact I know a friend who did graduate from dental school making 120k.

In all honesty, there seems to be estimates all over the place over an associate dentist's salary

 

[allDAT]

Really, I find far fewer resources saying the typical dentist receives around 200k, as a matter of fact I know a friend who did graduate from dental school making 120k.

In all honesty, there seems to be estimates all over the place over an associate dentist's salary

There are only a few resources available. You have:

ADA survey.
BLS database
Community clinic salary survey (unbiased because it’s reported by the clinics)
Government job data - General schedule (not relevant to most, but should be noted that data is likely included in BLS but since most dentists are not on the GS schedule, it should be inconsequential).

The rest is hearsay. There range is huge. 120k would be on the low end for a full time associate (4 days a week or 208 days a year). Most associates fall into the range of 130-180k a year.

I had a colleague who was an associate in CA who made around 3k a day (35% of adjusted production. So producing around 8500 a day). But he worked in a very remote area 3 days a week. Had to stay in a hotel while he was there and then return to his family (had to leave the day before and come home the day after work, so effectively gone 5 days a week). Trade off was hard on him but he needed the money.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

I had a colleague who was an associate in CA who made around 3k a day (35% of adjusted production. So producing around 8500 a day). But he worked in a very remote area 3 days a week. Had to stay in a hotel while he was there and then return to his family (had to leave the day before and come home the day after work, so effectively gone 5 days a week). Trade off was hard on him but he needed the money.

How long did they do this for? How long was the travel to their family/the practice?

 

[Cold Front]

I find that surprising to hear. The first 4 years out I averaged around 200k as an associate or ~$10,500/mo after taxes. The corp I worked at provided benefits, mal practice, and disability. On a 5 year repayment plan ($5,600/month) you would have ~4900/month left, or $58,800 per year of aftertax money for living. To put this in perspective, the average income in the US is 60k pretax. Assuming that you graduate dental school at 26, you could be a debt free earning >200k/yr at 31. That's not so bad, really.

Let’s use your example $10,500 a month after taxes

1. Housing/Shelter: Median rent in this country is above $2k a month. I will be very conservative and use this number that a dentist will pay the median rent in the nation, even though dentist income is above national median income. We won’t even bring up a mortgage because that’s double that number. Add utilities + rental insurance + parking in some cases = total housing cost of $2,500 a month. Deep down we know it will be higher than that.

Rents across U.S. rise above $2,000 a month for the first time ever

A new report shows the cost of renting a home or apartment is up 15% nationally to a new record high.

www.npr.org

2. Transportation: This is the second highest expense in a household. Well, let’s just get through this one quickly and assume you live close to work and driving a paid off older car. Most dentists lease or finance a car. But let’s just budget $500 for gas, insurance and regular maintenances per month to be on the safe side.

Average Transportation Costs in the US: Our 2nd Highest Expense

Average transportation costs in the U.S. are the 2nd highest of all expense categories at $12,295 per household. We need to fix this.

20somethingfinance.com

3. Food: We all know Grocery prices are up. Eating out is up. If you have no other mouths to feed, let’s just budget $500 a month minimum

4. Student loans payments: Lets plug that $5,600 a month in there.

Total so far, we are at $9,100 with no room to wiggle,

5. Miscellaneous expenses: Health insurance? 401k? Travel? Rainy day funds? Spouse/Kids/Dependents/Caring for sick loved one? Savings for downpayment to buy a home? CE courses? DEA, dental license, etc renewals? Malpractice insurance? Disability insurance? Life insurance? Buying lunch at work every day? Starbucks on your way to work? Dating someone costs? Gym membership? Do you own a pet? Are you diabetic? Wait… are all these luxury options or necessities? Add the ones that applies to you and see if you can keep them under $1,400 a month with inflation cooking those numbers 5-10% each year - as it did the last 3 years.

Easier said than done.

 

[allDAT]

How long did they do this for? How long was the travel to their family/the practice?

3.5 hours without traffic. He left Sunday night, came home Thursday. Worked Mon-Wed. He’d work with us as needed on Fridays. Great guy, lots of experience (30+ years). A new graduate wouldn’t be able to do the volume he was doing safely.

He wouldn’t have done this if it wasn’t for the financial crisis. He got hit twice - small town on the east coast went bust and so did his private practice. Then he moved back to CA did well but got caught in the real estate boom and bust. So he had to put in work late in life to get to retirement…not sure if he’s made it yet though.

I think he did 3 days a week for 5-6 years if I remember correctly before the pandemic started. I’m not sure if he kept doing it post pandemic. I haven’t seen him since early 2019.

 

[sobertiger]

I find that surprising to hear. The first 4 years out I averaged around 200k as an associate or ~$10,500/mo after taxes. The corp I worked at provided benefits, mal practice, and disability. On a 5 year repayment plan ($5,600/month) you would have ~4900/month left, or $58,800 per year of aftertax money for living. To put this in perspective, the average income in the US is 60k pretax. Assuming that you graduate dental school at 26, you could be a debt free earning >200k/yr at 31. That's not so bad, really.

yea 300k is def manageable. A dentist I know went rural and paid everything off in 3-4 years as an associate, though it was ten years ago, he was single and living with his parents.

 

[allDAT]

yea 300k is def manageable. A dentist I know went rural and paid everything off in 3-4 years as an associate, though it was ten years ago, he was single and living with his parents.

That’s the trifecta - single, lives with parents, went rural…

 

[sobertiger]

That’s the trifecta - single, lives with parents, went rural…

True. Going rural is financially the best way to go for any new GP. It's what I'm doing.

 

[Blueshirts]

True. Going rural is financially the best way to go for any new GP. It's what I'm doing.

I’m just going to do dentistry on horses seems like more fun

 

[charlestweed]

I find that surprising to hear. The first 4 years out I averaged around 200k as an associate or ~$10,500/mo after taxes. The corp I worked at provided benefits, mal practice, and disability. On a 5 year repayment plan ($5,600/month) you would have ~4900/month left, or $58,800 per year of aftertax money for living. To put this in perspective, the average income in the US is 60k pretax. Assuming that you graduate dental school at 26, you could be a debt free earning >200k/yr at 31. That's not so bad, really.

$4900 living budget is not much….it’s just slightly better the budget of a college/dental student. But this is exactly what I have recommended the new grads to do after graduation: work like a dog, live like a student, and pay off student loan debt ASAP (in 5 years like what you suggested). When they are 30-31, they will be debt free. Their kids will be 5-6 yo. At that age, they can afford to work less and spend more time with their kids.

 

[charlestweed]

Let’s use your example $10,500 a month after taxes

1. Housing/Shelter: Median rent in this country is above $2k a month. I will be very conservative and use this number that a dentist will pay the median rent in the nation, even though dentist income is above national median income. We won’t even bring up a mortgage because that’s double that number. Add utilities + rental insurance + parking in some cases = total housing cost of $2,500 a month. Deep down we know it will be higher than that.

Rents across U.S. rise above $2,000 a month for the first time ever

A new report shows the cost of renting a home or apartment is up 15% nationally to a new record high.

www.npr.org

2. Transportation: This is the second highest expense in a household. Well, let’s just get through this one quickly and assume you live close to work and driving a paid off older car. Most dentists lease or finance a car. But let’s just budget $500 for gas, insurance and regular maintenances per month to be on the safe side.

Average Transportation Costs in the US: Our 2nd Highest Expense

Average transportation costs in the U.S. are the 2nd highest of all expense categories at $12,295 per household. We need to fix this.

20somethingfinance.com

3. Food: We all know Grocery prices are up. Eating out is up. If you have no other mouths to feed, let’s just budget $500 a month minimum

4. Student loans payments: Lets plug that $5,600 a month in there.

Total so far, we are at $9,100 with no room to wiggle,

5. Miscellaneous expenses: Health insurance? 401k? Travel? Rainy day funds? Spouse/Kids/Dependents/Caring for sick loved one? Savings for downpayment to buy a home? CE courses? DEA, dental license, etc renewals? Malpractice insurance? Disability insurance? Life insurance? Buying lunch at work every day? Starbucks on your way to work? Dating someone costs? Gym membership? Do you own a pet? Are you diabetic? Wait… are all these luxury options or necessities? Add the ones that applies to you and see if you can keep them under $1,400 a month with inflation cooking those numbers 5-10% each year - as it did the last 3 years.

Easier said than done.

Yup, easier said than done.

Many young predents here might argue with you that their parents were able to raise them very well with much lower income. What these predents may not realize is for them to have a very comfortable childhood lifestyle, their parents may have had to make a lot of sacrifices such as borrowing more money by refinancing the home loans several times, taking out the 401k money early, working more than 1 job etc. Their parents may still have a lot of debt right now. Another thing they do not realize is that things were much cheaper 10-15 years ago than they are now. Home prices and rental rate 10-15 years ago were only 1/3 as much as they are today.

On my earlier post, I presented a fairly detailed monthly budget of my family (family of 4)…..it’s easily $15-16k a month and that does not include things like vacation budget and other unexpected costs. I need to make at least $200k/year just to get by. And I don’t have any debt…except for the lease payment on a car.

 

[allDAT]

I’m just going to do dentistry on horses seems like more fun

As an aside, dentists used to be able to do dentistry on animals. I attended a lecture by one of the older dentists from the San Diego Zoo. It was an amazing lecture and he job there seemed incredible. I wish that option was still open to us.

 

[Cold Front]

The concept of inflation is foreign to most pre-dents. They are looking up dentists incomes today as early as freshmen or sophomores in college. Well, if all goes to plan, that’s some 6-7 years from now before they see their first patient for less pay if they are getting paid through a dental insurance like most dentists are.

Let’s look it from today… using the most recent data from the ADA, $207k is what the average general dentist makes. There is almost 100% chance probability that the average general dentist income will hover around $250k by 2030, a 20% increase from today’s income at best. There is also near 100% chance that the cost of everything else in life on average will go up around 35% over the same period. So in real terms, most dentists incomes will decline adjusted for inflation by the end of this decade.

This is not a doom and gloom opinion, but a fact based on historic data and current economic trends. A dentist income will not outpace inflation over the next decade. There are too many dental schools pushing out new dentists out now. Corporations will dominated the industry by the end of this decade. The dental insurance industry are signing up more dentists as providers while cutting fees every year, swinging the pendulum from private practice ownership towards corporations even further.

So… as the OP implied, is 600k+ in student loans getting you the best career a money can buy today? The answer is yes for a few, but no for the majority. No dentist will starve or be homeless in the future, but most dentists will have to work harder, much much harder than previous generation of dentists to have a comfy life.

 

[Rvting]

The concept of inflation is foreign to most pre-dents. They are looking up dentists incomes today as early as freshmen or sophomores in college. Well, if all goes to plan, that’s some 6-7 years from now before they see their first patient for less pay if they are getting paid through a dental insurance like most dentists are.

I think most students understand the problems inflation brings to the table but I do agree that they probably don't understand the positions corporate and insurance businesses have established.

One thing I want to mention is that dentistry isn't alone on this, perhaps bearing a heavier weight compared to most medical careers sure, but definitely not alone in this decaying economy.

Edit: not only do pre-dents may not understand this but, from what I've heard from my non-college educated father, he doesn't understand much of this either. If he is exemplary of a typical gen-x then gen-z doesn't understand this as well meaning pre-dents are receiving poor advice from their parents.
The holy trinity of jobs a kid gets pushed into these days are lawyers, doctors, and engineers, but these positions have been pushed for so much that there is too much supply not enough demand.

 

[Cello]

I haven't posted in a while, but this thread is interesting. I thought I would throw in my $0.02 since I'm a practicing dentist now in the highly competitive market of Scottsdale, Arizona. I am currently building a practice in a less competitive market.

• If you owe $600,000 and you work as an associate in a competitive market then you will not have much left over to live on, much less travel the Mediterranean with. You may need to do one or more of the following: HPSP / PSLF, have a rich family member who is willing to give you lots of money, work in an undesirable but high-demand market (rural or low-income/Medicaid), have a working spouse who makes decent money, live a very inexpensive lifestyle (cheap apartment and 20 year old car), and/or own a successful practice.
• Practice ownership may either be your quickest route to financial independence, or financial ruin. Most of the time, dental practices succeed at becoming profitable, but a small number do fail every year. More commonly, a lot of dental practices just sort of putz along producing somewhere between $500,000 and $800,000 per year. If you manage your overhead well, then you can still do well even in this range. $800,000 per year with 50% overhead would still provide $400,000 to the owner. However, 50% is increasingly difficult to do, especially in competitive areas where rents and salaries run high.
• Dentistry is full of snakes. When you are an associate, you are largely shielded from them (unless you are unfortunate enough to be employed by one). When you go into practice ownership, they come out of the woodwork. Everyone wants a piece of you, and the majority of them are just trying to make a commission by finding a naive dentist they can sucker. The supply rep, the equipment rep, the marketing company, the broker, the banker, the consultant, they all want your money, and they all promise to give you more than they take, but none of them care if they leave you with nothing. I had a clinical professor who was, well, kind of a d*ck. I asked him why he was so hard on us once, and he said, "Cello, it's a hard world out there, I just want you to be prepared for it." He was right. Being nice can make you seem like a sucker, so beware the predatory serpents who are looking to take advantage of you.
• The risk is high, but so are the rewards. Imagine owing $600,000 in student loans, and another $1,000,000 in a practice loan for an office that is failing... But Cello, I would never buy a failing practice! Remember the snakes I just mentioned? Yeah, one of those snakes will try to sell you a polished turd. Practice ownership can be hugely rewarding, but the risk is always there, and you have to be bold, savvy, and crazy enough to take on the risk.
• Dentistry looks more like Prom royalty every year. There are an ever-increasing number of dentist-influencers on TikTok. Many dentists are known for their personality, or their looks, not for their technical skill. This makes sense, because patients don't know any better. Understand that to really stand out in the future will require an ever-increasing understanding of marketing and brand-building. If you are shy or quiet, you will face an uphill battle, but you can do it if you work at it. Don't expect to just hang your shingle and have patients come strolling in though.
• The pressure to produce is real, especially in competitive areas. Also, with increased competition, and non-dentist owners at practices across the country (including DSOs), many young dentists find their treatment plans are being modified by office managers with no dental education whatsoever. Even in cases where the doctor renders the diagnoses, there can be intense pressure to treat problems that don't exist, or to bill for things that weren't done or aren't necessary. You see all kinds of shady billing practices out there, and insurance fraud is rampant. Every once in a while there is an insurance audit which can be very costly. An owner-dentist I worked for in the past was arrested for insurance fraud. Because of this, many malpractice carriers are now charging additional fees for dentists employed by DSOs.
• Dentists by and large don't get paid for time off. Some DSOs offer paid vacation, but in my experience, most don't. And if you own the place, then you will feel the hurt every time you take time off if you run a solo office. Build that into your expectations. If you envision a lifestyle of sinking screws on Monday, strapping on Zirconia on Tuesday, and walking through the French Riviera by Wednesday, that won't just happen over night. It can happen, and it does happen, but almost certainly not during your first few years out of school, and definitely not without substantial financial investments into CE and probably your own practice.
• Beware damaging contracts. As more dentists have burst onto the scene with increasing debt burdens and fewer options, many DSOs have become increasingly aggressive with their contracts. If you have $600,000 in debt and you want to work in a competitive market, then they know you don't have leverage. Always run your contract by a lawyer. They probably can't help you negotiate better terms, but they can point out red flags.
• Inflation is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it erodes real income. On the other hand, it also erodes loan debt. That $600,000 you owe is inflating away about as fast as the interest is accruing. If you can consolidate that $600,000 to a private lender at 3%, and if inflation remains above 5%, then your loan is technically shrinking even if you don't make a single payment.
• Your first few years out of school may pay really well, or really poorly. My experience with this is that it has less to do with speed, and more to do with location. I was one of the fastest in my class, but there are people who were slower than me that produce way more than I do. I am currently at a practice where I'm on pace to produce decently for a dentist with 2 years experience. I believe I could double what I'm doing now comfortably if we had the patients, but I spend 60-70% of my days sitting around waiting for work to do. Just look at the size of this post!
• CE is expensive AF. The better the CE, as in the higher the ROI, the more expensive it usually is. If you want to build an implant practice or do cosmetic full-mouth reconstructions, be prepared to spend a ton of money on CE, in addition to your student loan debt, and your practice loan debt. Unless you have a rich uncle, or a sugar-daddy/mommy, you are likely going to be starting from way behind if you want to opportunity to jump way ahead.
• Patients can be jerks. Thanks to online reviews, we face the same problem any waiter/waitress does. If a patient complains, it can affect our reputation, and therefore our bottom line. So, even though you may own the place, and you may be a doctor, you will have to eat at least a little **** if you care about your business. My advice: practice saying "I'm sorry" without really meaning it, but seeming like you really do.

There are exceptions to everything I've said above, and they might just piss you off. There is always going to be a dental student who drives a nicer car than any of the dental professors and whose parents pay for their schooling. There are lots of dentists who lie, cheat, and steal. You might be one of the unfortunate dentists whose office managers embezzle lots of money from you. This field can chew you up, spit you out, and make you feel like the most persecuted person on the planet. But, here's the thing, I don't know any dentists who are poor or struggling. I do know of some who struggled for a while. Maybe they get divorced, or they started a practice, and they spent 2-3 years living out of a 1BR apartment, but they all bounce back with relative ease. Dentistry still affords you the opportunity to live a great life, be your own boss, and do things of consequence for other human beings. There are far worse ways to make a living, and at this point in my life I feel like I've tried most of them. I am facing the same challenges most of you are/will, and I can say that I have ZERO regrets. I love this profession, and I can't see myself doing anything else. If you feel the same way, then you are making the right decision. If you don't feel the same way, or you are unsure, you had better do some soul-searching before you marry yourself to $600,000 in nondischargeable student loan debt.

 

[2TH MVR]

I haven't posted in a while, but this thread is interesting. I thought I would throw in my $0.02 since I'm a practicing dentist now in the highly competitive market of Scottsdale, Arizona. I am currently building a practice in a less competitive market.

Well said and all very true.
Curious. Where are you building a practice? A less competitive market?

 

[Cello]

Well said and all very true.
Curious. Where are you building a practice? A less competitive market?

About 25 miles away in Glendale. It's still competitive, but entirely different than the Scottsdale market.

 

[Cold Front]

If you don't feel the same way, or you are unsure, you had better do some soul-searching before you marry yourself to $600,000 in nondischargeable student loan debt.

That is the moral of the story.

Pre-dents use older dentists with a private office or 2 as reference points of where the profession will take them, and assume they will walk the same path by carrying 16x of the student debt those older dentists carried. Yes, 16x today, heading to 20-30x in the near future.

The profession doesn’t guarantee anything to any pre-dent, it’s simply an opportunity. An opportunity that could get you to be very successful dentist, or a dentist that lives on paycheck to paycheck. I have seen both sides of that spectrum early in my career. Holding a dental degree doesn’t guarantee anything, but what you do with it, who you are, where you practice and more is what it will take to get the most of that degree. Let’s just say your mileage will definitely vary from someone you graduated with in dental school.

The unfortunate part is, in the eyes of pre-dents, almost all think being a “doctor” is synonymous to having a great financial future. Maybe that was the case in the golden years of dentistry. It’s not just dentistry, but America has also changed. I bet most dentists today are not recommending dentistry to their own kids as much as dentists who practiced 1980-2010 period knowing what they know now about the state of the profession. To me, that’s the bottom line.

We are seeing less practice ownership. We are seeing declining insurance fees. We are seeing inflation pushing dentists real income down for decades now. We are seeing more new schools opening. We are seeing student loans spiraling out of control. We are seeing shrinking workforce in dental assistants and hygienists. If you step back, the country is going through the same thing. Dentistry thrives or slowly withers based on the educational, political (yes, the ADA loves to accredit more new schools) and economic environments.

Be woke or face the realities.

 

[Rvting]

That is the moral of the story.

Pre-dents use older dentists with a private office or 2 as reference points of where the profession will take them, and assume they will walk the same path by carrying 16x of the student debt those older dentists carried. Yes, 16x today, heading to 20-30x in the near future.

I find this part to be extremely ironic because shadowing dentists is often required by these schools, and either the dentists just don't understand the current financial problems the students face or the subject never comes up.

 

[Blueshirts]

I find this part to be extremely ironic because shadowing dentists is often required by these schools, and either the dentists just don't understand the current financial problems the students face or the subject never comes up.

Most dentists that I have met have no clue, the ones that I have met through rotating to off campus location know the deal and will openly talk about how the debt is insane, everyone doc I've talked to even said 300k would be absurd to tackle and continue living in NY

 

[Cold Front]

I find this part to be extremely ironic because shadowing dentists is often required by these schools, and either the dentists just don't understand the current financial problems the students face or the subject never comes up.

Most dentists who offer shadowing are probably conflicted. Should they be honest and crush a pre-dent’s dream? Or keep their thoughts to themselves and hope the student doesn’t fall into a big debt trap and walk into a profession that keeps getting harder every year to work in?

Numerous students shadowed me over the years and the first thing I ask them is if they know how much dental school would cost them today? 99% of them don’t know the answer. But their commitment to dental school was about 100%. It has always been “I will worry about that when I get there” with them.

 

[2TH MVR]

Numerous students shadowed me over the years and the first thing I ask them is if they know how much dental school would cost them today? 99% of them don’t know the answer. But their commitment to dental school was about 100%. It has always been “I will worry about that when I get there” with them.

Sounds like the undergrad college medical/dental advisors need to get involved.

 

[Blueshirts]

Most dentists who offer shadowing are probably conflicted. Should they be honest and crush a pre-dent’s dream? Or keep their thoughts to themselves and hope the student doesn’t fall into a big debt trap and walk into a profession that keeps getting harder every year to work in?

Numerous students shadowed me over the years and the first thing I ask them is if they know how much dental school would cost them today? 99% of them don’t know the answer. But their commitment to dental school was about 100%. It has always been “I will worry about that when I get there” with them.

My Doc who I shadowed all the way back in 2014 was concerned about how much schooling cost even at the state schools. Now almost a decade later the cost to attend any school has certainly increased by probably another 100k+. I don’t know how new grads with giant loan burdens are doing it. The feeling of daily life must be like the feeling you have before a big test, except it’s everyday for the next X amount of years.

 

[Cold Front]

Sounds like the undergrad college medical/dental advisors need to get involved.

Schools have a lot of clout over young students who want to make their parents proud, eager to have a significant place in society though a prestigious career, etc. It’s almost an unstoppable emotional force that no level of student debt or advisor can talk them out of that path. That’s what keeps filling dental schools seats, even at $200k a year - which is what many dental schools will eventually charge in our lifetime.

As long as schools are increasing tuitions 3-4% a year, the next wave of new students won’t mind.

 

[Rvting]

Schools have a lot of clout over young students who want to make their parents proud, eager to have a significant place in society though a prestigious career, etc. It’s almost an unstoppable emotional force that no level of student debt or advisor can talk them out of that path. That’s what keeps filling dental schools seats, even at $200k a year - which is what many dental schools will eventually charge in our lifetime.

As long as schools are increasing tuitions 3-4% a year, the next wave of new students won’t mind.

As a pre-dent, I can definitely say this is the case even for children of dentists.

 

[charlestweed]

As a pre-dent, I can definitely say this is the case even for children of dentists.

I don’t think making their parents proud is the main reason. These kids can choose not to go to college and their parents cannot do anything about it. My children, nieces, nephews, friends’ children pursue dentistry (and medicine) because they see the comfortable lifestyle that we, dentists, and doctors enjoy and they want to have the same for themselves. These kids do this for themselves not for their parents.

It’s not easy to make a good living nowadays. One needs to be careful when someone says there are plenty of easy jobs that pay well and don’t require any education…..they may be illegal or unethical type of jobs. There is no such thing as easy money. In order to get paid an X amount, you have to work hard to produce for your boss 2-3 times more than that X amount. It’s capitalism. The only exception to this rule is if you work for the government where making profit is not a priority.

I wouldn’t recommend a person to pursue dentistry if he/she asks me silly questions like “will I be able to work 4 or less days/wk and can I take 2-3 wk vacations several times in a year?”

 

[Cold Front]

As a pre-dent, I can definitely say this is the case even for children of dentists.

Most pre-dents and their parents are oblivious to the things that actually happen in the real world dentistry. They assume whatever a dentist touches turns gold, as far as procedures. Shadowing a dentist is a very misleading experience, and the things a pre dent should know will never be discussed or shared with them in great detail, or even it were - they will never understand it.

 

[LFA20]

Schools have a lot of clout over young students who want to make their parents proud, eager to have a significant place in society though a prestigious career, etc. It’s almost an unstoppable emotional force that no level of student debt or advisor can talk them out of that path. That’s what keeps filling dental schools seats, even at $200k a year - which is what many dental schools will eventually charge in our lifetime.

As long as schools are increasing tuitions 3-4% a year, the next wave of new students won’t mind.

very true and scary at the same time...

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Have dental salaries really gone down that much? Or is it just that prices of everything had gone up. Growing up, the dentists in my neighborhood drove Porsche 911, Aston Martin Vanquish, AMG GT.

Hopefully the same doesn’t happen in medicine but I feel like it already kinda is

 

[PerioDont]

Have dental salaries really gone down that much? Or is it just that prices of everything had gone up. Growing up, the dentists in my neighborhood drove Porsche 911, Aston Martin Vanquish, AMG GT.

Hopefully the same doesn’t happen in medicine but I feel like it already kinda is

I don’t know a single dentist in my generation driving anything like that

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I don’t know a single dentist in my generation driving anything like that

Yes this was probably about 15ish years ago and they already had kids so guessing they must’ve graduated dental school mid 80s or early 90s

 

[charlestweed]

Have dental salaries really gone down that much? Or is it just that prices of everything had gone up. Growing up, the dentists in my neighborhood drove Porsche 911, Aston Martin Vanquish, AMG GT.

Hopefully the same doesn’t happen in medicine but I feel like it already kinda is

My younger brother, who is a GI doc, said the same thing about medicine....doctor’s salaries have not gone up much to catch up with the inflation. Doctors have to work longer hours and see more patients for the same pay. Despite all these, he still wants his children to follow his footstep because it is still much better than other career options. To him, job stability is very important. And I completely agree with him.

I’ve done very well even at the reduced pay. I’ve charged my patients way below (almost half) the national average fees. I had worked 2x harder than my colleagues (most of them only work 3-4 days/wk) to make up for the low fees. I’d rather deal with the stress of treating more patients than the stress of being in debt. I could afford one of those cars that you mentioned above but I didn’t (still don't) like any of them….they are too noisy and the ride quality is way too rough…there are no back seats......not suitable for my kids. I bought rental properties (and paid them off) instead.

 

[Rvting]

Have dental salaries really gone down that much? Or is it just that prices of everything had gone up. Growing up, the dentists in my neighborhood drove Porsche 911, Aston Martin Vanquish, AMG GT.

Hopefully the same doesn’t happen in medicine but I feel like it already kinda is

Due to inflation the buying power of dentists have gone down while increases in salary haven't increased to compensate




Median yearly pay 2021 is 163,220 $ Dentists : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
Median yearly pay 2010 is 146,920$= but after inflation $182,571.96 in 2021 Dentists : Occupational Outlook Handbook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The value of a 2010 dollar has increased by 24% but the 2020 dental salary is missing the value of ~12% or 19,352$. Also, I HIGHLY doubt that dentists are the only ones feeling this. so are other doctors, so are lawyers and engineers.

As from what I can tell from the other comments, costs like insurance and business loans have likely skyrocketed due to increased competition.
It kinda makes me feel like guaranteed students loans have done the opposite of what it was intended to do. Instead of expanding the middle class it just oversaturated fields that took people into the middle class and ruined them, i.e eliminate the middle class (at least for the coming generation).

 

[2TH MVR]

….they are too noisy and the ride quality is way too rough…there are no back seats.....

Oh Charles. You have to be a car guy to understand.

 

[charlestweed]

Oh Charles. You have to be a car guy to understand.

I am definitely not a car guy. That's why I don't want to waste money on something that I neither like nor appreciate. I am not the type of person who likes to collect and fix/modify cars. I get bored of cars easily. That's why I lease new car every 2-3 years. It is still much cheaper than buying (and maintaining) one of these supercars.

 

[Cello]

The bottom line is, if you want to pay down your debt and prosper in this field, you will almost certainly need to get into ownership. There are myriad reasons this is true, but I'm going to just throw out some hypotheticals that are based on real-world conditions.

Take a $1 million practice as an example. In one scenario you are an associate, and in the other you are the owner. Assume this is a simplistic model where the overhead is 60% and 40% counts as earnings (EBITDA). Assuming collections are 100% for the sake of simplicity (98% is achievable), and hygiene produces 20% of the gross, let's compare the associate to the owner.

Associate:
Paid 25% of production (it used to be 30% was the norm, but the number keeps dropping, especially at large corporations which are sometimes paying as low as 20%). The office makes $1 million, $800,000 of that sum was produced by the associate, and they get paid 25% which works out to $200,000.

Owner:
The practice made $1 million, overhead was $600k (60% is tough but achievable in most markets). The owner keeps $400,000.

Note: In reality, the earnings here represent EBITDA, and the owner may still have a practice loan or assets to depreciate. In this simplified scenario, the owner has 2x the income of the associate at the same practice.

Here's the thing. The owner enjoys a number of other advantages as well. For example, if they purchased new equipment for their practice, then they can depreciate the value of that equipment on their personal taxes because most dental offices are what are called pass-through entities. There are a number of tax advantages to being a practice owner that allow you to keep more of the money you earn. In fact, the tax benefits are one of the biggest reasons to be a business owner. If you do a startup, you can write off enormous amounts of income on your taxes for many years because everything expensive you bought is a depreciating asset. A savvy owner with a large number of write-offs can even pay close to nothing in income taxes, just think of Exxon, Google, and Amazon.

While the associate is taxed 32% of their $200,000 - leaving them with about $155,563 (through progressive taxation) after federal income taxes (not including state or FICA), the owner may pay a much lower effective tax rate, possibly approaching 0 depending on their circumstances. Let's say for the sake of this post that the owner reduces their tax obligation to 24%, they get to keep $309,959 (actually more than that, since a reduction in taxable income would shield their income from taxation, but this is just a simplified way to see things).

Here's the other thing. Not only does the owner make more money, and enjoy a number of tax advantages, they also have net worth through their business. You bought an asset that earns money. Now you are earning money from your own two hands, you are also earning money from your ancillary staff, and you also own a valuable asset that is worth anywhere from $600k to $1 million+ depending on the market. You can use that asset to make further acquisitions, to do other startups, or you can just keep it humming along until you sell it, and if you are savvy and if you run the practice well, maybe you sell it for even more.

Moral of the story:

If you want to pay off your debt quickly, you probably need to get into an ownership position ASAP. And I'm not talking about the fake "ownership" the DSOs try to sell you on where you are actually just an employee with a minority stake in your practice. I am talking about true ownership, where you get the net worth, the tax perks, and total control over your destiny. You need to pursue ownership, whether through an acquisition, or by doing a startup. Just beware the snakes I mentioned in my previous post, they are literally everywhere in this profession. I'm only two years in and I've been bitten several times. Becoming a practice owner actually feels a bit like training to be a snake handler.

If you can't see yourself owning a practice, then I think you really need to think long and hard about a career in dentistry. You might find a superb associateship that pays extremely well and where you love your work, but the odds are strongly against that.

 

[Cold Front]

Moral of the story:

If you want to pay off your debt quickly, you probably need to get into an ownership position ASAP.

Per ADA… Ownership is declining.

Dental schools tuition and fees are still heading for the moon.

Debt will not be paid off quicker under those conditions.

Even hard work has limits to pay off debt. No offense, but today’s young dentists mostly don’t want to work as hard as their predecessors. It’s boring to work very hard!

 

[NavyBlueSuit]

Some insight into the thought process....I've talked to a few people that plan to just pay the minimum and not worry about student loans. That's been a hot discussion between me and acquaintances going through the process. You pay more over time, but it's easier to swallow a small monthly payment.

It's also wishful thinking to ask people who went from broke to making 6 figures to still live like a college student. Smart? Sure. Feasible for the average person? Impulse control is not a strong suit these days. Ads are considered too long if they can't grab your attention in 10 seconds or less. It's also gonna be harder to follow that advice if you have a partner than if you are single coming out of dental school.

I will say I've been hearing doom and gloom since I was born. Nothing is as good as it used to be, especially economy wise. It's a gamble to become a dentist, but I'm not interested in other careers. You have to gamble by the very nature of the process. How can you understand the dental field without living it? How do you explain how bad a situation is if someone has no frame of reference? You can shadow years and never hear the things told online, and let's be honest not everyone is giving a balanced opinion(kinda like the kids that complain about the difficulty of a test and then get a high A). I also don't know many careers that have an earning potential of 200k+ within a decade. Maybe a corporate office job that you can lose at a moments notice?

I'm honest with myself, and I know that I need a job that stimulates me. I believe that will be dentistry. You do your best to save costs, but otherwise how else can you be a dentist? I think even texas schools are getting into the high 200k now. I'd rather regret becoming a dentist than regret never trying. Just my .02 cents.

Now rural dentistry...that's a good idea for a country bumpkin

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I'm honest with myself, and I know that I need a job that stimulates me

Don’t even most dentists find dentistry boring? The whole reason to go into it before was that it paid well and was chiller than medicine

Also you don’t have to gamble at all. Go to med school, choose anesthesiology, and make 550k+ per year without call and less debt

Going 500K+ in debt for any career is absurd

 

[Cold Front]

I'm honest with myself, and I know that I need a job that stimulates me. I believe that will be dentistry. You do your best to save costs, but otherwise how else can you be a dentist? I think even texas schools are getting into the high 200k now. I'd rather regret becoming a dentist than regret never trying. Just my .02 cents.

I’m not sure about your personal situation, but spend time with some real world dentists and ask them honest questions. Ask them how they feel about the outlook of the profession from 1 to 10? Cut to the chase, ask them when they are not distracted by a patient or work. Most dentists are too busy and shy away from being asked their personal opinions about the profession. Tell them you are about to get on the dental train and want to make sure it will be a smooth ride as you would hope to be, or if it would turn to a runaway train. Take notes, ask about if insurance industry is becoming an issue, if staffing pay and headaches could continue to be a nightmare, if it’s worth taking $600k in student loans and $300-500k to build or buy a practice makes senses in 2022 (not when the dentist graduated, but when you graduate). Ask them if they would send their kid to dental school today? Ask them if it makes sense to specialize and take another $300-400k in student loans? Talk to recent younger dentists who still have student loans, didn’t buy a practice, or a home… who are probably stuck financially due to current economic conditions. Research, research, research… this a big big decision. Never take the dental schools’ rosy picture about the profession seriously, or what you see or read on social media. It’s one of the best decisions you will ever make in your life by doing in-depth research, as it should be for all pre-dents.

 

[NavyBlueSuit]

Don’t even most dentists find dentistry boring? The whole reason to go into it before was that it paid well and was chiller than medicine

Also you don’t have to gamble at all. Go to med school, choose anesthesiology, and make 550k+ per year without call and less debt

Going 500K+ in debt for any career is absurd

If even dental students are surprised at what they deal with coming out of school then it's still a gamble. As much as I love shadowing and assisting, it's never going to be the same as doing all the work of a dentist.

You would also prefer me to go into a field I don't care about? Don't think thatd be best for the patients.

Have you guys been on the other side? I mean truly struggling to make ends meet in a crap house, barely putting food on the table, and one major expense(<5K) could take so many resources from you that you start getting things repossessed? Life could be much worse than a 4 day work week. You could work 7 days and pay half of your take home income towards renting a crap apartment.

I want yall to do the numbers for me. 70k is considered good money here. You pay about 20-30k a year if you rent instead of buy a house. Most people my age still rent due to housing costs and difficulties getting approved for loans. We can even pretend to stay single and never spend extra money on luxuries. How long does it take for this person to pay off all debts, have a decent rainy day fund, and save up for retirement? What happens if they get sick and can't work for a few days?

Maybe the lavishness of dentistry is gone but you cannot tell me it's as bad as the average worker's situation.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Have you guys been on the other side?

Yes, but thanks for assuming otherwise.

you cannot tell me it's as bad as the average worker's situation.

If you can get into dental school, you are well beyond the capabilities of the "average worker." If the alternative of becoming a dentist is for you to accept some menial dead-end job, that's on you.

Big Hoss

 

[NavyBlueSuit]

Yes, but thanks for assuming otherwise.



If you can get into dental school, you are well beyond the capabilities of the "average worker." If the alternative of becoming a dentist is for you to accept some menial dead-end job, that's on you.

Big Hoss

Well getting into dental school is mostly grades. There are plenty of people smarter than me that make a lot less money, and more than a few people have mentioned that the hand skills mostly take practice. Anyone can practice if they enjoy something.

Is it really so easy to make 6 figs nowadays that any dental student could consistently do it until retirement if they never went to dental school? I don't think this is a fair assessment.

I'm not saying I can't make it for myself and be well off, but the chances to fail are a lot higher than dentistry. It's also going to give a lot more flexibility than most jobs that pay the same amount of money.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

It's also going to give a lot more flexibility than most jobs that pay the same amount of money.

With $600,000+ in student loans, you're likely going to be trapped working for some DSO. How much flexibility do you think they'll give you? You'll likely have much, much less flexibility than you imagine. Want to take a vacation somewhat on a whim? Fat chance, they'll want at least 3 months notice for any vacation. And you can forget about that being paid time off.

At the end of the day, I am where I am. Would I do things differently if I could go back in time? Maybe. What is a certainty though, is that I would never borrow $500,000 or more to become a dentist. But, you do you. They are your loans to pay back.

Big Hoss

 

[NavyBlueSuit]

There is merit to everything you guys say. I just think it's gotten extremely pessimistic in the grand scheme of things.

You guys won't be here forever. If I'm not mistaken the average age for dentists is getting closer to retirement every year. Until loans are denied schools will increase costs. It sucks. A lot of things suck right now compared to the 90s, 80s, hell even the early 00s...I've been hearing this for a long time consistently from anyone middle aged or older since I was a middle schooler.

Doom and gloom has been around for a very long time.

Going to the cheapest school will always be great advice. I expect things will not change until all graduates start filing for long term loan forgiveness plans, or dying with millions in debt. The advice I've been given is if loans are 2.5 times your average income you are okay to aggressively pay down, but 3-4 you are better off financially paying the minimum and investing/saving.

I love discussions on here. Just giving a different perspective.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I just think it's gotten extremely pessimistic in the grand scheme of things.

I wonder why that is. Maybe because things are starting to fall off a cliff?

I have said this before, and I will say it again. It is very telling that there are literally no fresh graduates with $500,000 or more in student loans coming on SDN saying that it's no problem at all to manage that. Think about that for a second. That should be setting off alarm bells for you.

Big Hoss

 

[Ivy.ch]

Lots of discussion about owning your own practice here. In the specialty world, that dream has faded quickly. Existing specialty practices have become valued WAY beyond what a single buyer could arrange with a bank. Everything is going to corporate and equity groups buying group practices. The same might be headed the dental way. Just like real estate, private equity will buy buy buy up everything, and if you’re buying alone, there’s nothing you can afford. There are still some who sell with good will and offer buy-ins over time, but I think that generation will pass soon. Everything will be owned by equity groups, and we’ll all be working as wage employees.

In summary, I’m not sure owning your own practice will be the magic trail out of debt it has been before. Private practices may be out of range for all retail buyers in the future. No bank is going to give out multimillion dollar loans to a dentist already in debt a million dollars. And even if they did, you just signed away an entire lifetime of paychecks with no room for risk or error.

 

[Ivy.ch]

I wonder why that is. Maybe because things are starting to fall off a cliff?

I have said this before, and I will say it again. It is very telling that there are literally no fresh graduates with $500,000 or more in student loans coming on SDN saying that it's no problem at all to manage that. Think about that for a second. That should be setting off alarm bells for you.

Big Hoss

Agree 100%

Whether we had $100k or $300k from school, no one from my class feels good about things. But we’ll be okay. I can’t imagine how some of the students I teach will ever pay back their $400k+ private school loans in a reasonable amount of time.

I think we’re been spoiled for the last 5 years too. Unfortunately, whatever we did manage to save disappeared in the markets this week, and it looks like it’s set to go down and down for a while. The numbers don’t always go up. Not to mention inflation. Not to mention taxes. Economy is hitting us from 3 different directions. It’s hitting our patients too, which means buckle up.

 

[Rvting]

The more and more I read from this thread the more daunting America's economy seems to be. If a doctor can't make a reasonable living within 5 years of graduation and licensing, no less start a practice, then sooner or later this economy is gonna crumble. No wonder you don't hear stuff like this until you dig deep and discuss with anonymous professionals, we've got to keep the cogs turning.

Hell, I google "average dental student debt" and I get $292,169. Now I don't know what numbers are being pulled here to be this low but by the looks of it on dental school explorer, 290k is equivalent to about 2.5 years of dental school tuition. Are people getting grants and scholarships (outside of military) on some insane level? But I see on Reddit one guy with 320k of debt, another guy with 550k.