how many copies of LOR should I get?

[Dr McSteamy]

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One to send to ERAS, and a sealed one to keep for myself?
that's enough, right?

you don't need to send letters anywhere else right?
in case you need to scramble, do you need multiple copies of the letters?

 

[Winged Scapula]

If you get a copy for yourself, then you cannot honestly sign the waiver. Thats not to be said that people don't do it, but it is not a regular course of action to ask for a copy for yourself, sealed or no.

If you need to scramble, you can do it through ERAS which will already have a copy of your LORs as well as your Dean's office (which will also have copies of the letters).

 

[bjackrian]

If you get a copy for yourself, then you cannot honestly sign the waiver. Thats not to be said that people don't do it, but it is not a regular course of action to ask for a copy for yourself, sealed or no.

If you need to scramble, you can do it through ERAS which will already have a copy of your LORs as well as your Dean's office (which will also have copies of the letters).

I don't think that this is accurate. The waiver just says that you are waiving your right under FERPA to see the letter that is actually sent to ERAS. If the recommender gives you a copy of the letter of their own accord or asks if you would like a copy, I don't think that violates the waiver. That's my interpretation of the statement, anyway:

I waive my right to see this letter under the "Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA)." I acknowledge that this letters is for the specific purpose of supporting my application for residency.

 

[Winged Scapula]

IMHO you are interpreting the statement to your benefit.

Obviously people are given copies of letters, I don't deny that. Whether or not you think it is ethically wrong to sign the statement in that matter is up for debate; I'd venture that most people would accept the letter and sign the statement.

But to ask for the letter, which is the SAME letter sent to ERAS, a letter that "is for the specific purpose of supporting my application for residency" would seem to be clearly in violation of the letter of the rule. What other situation would ERAS be referring to? That you are only waiving your right to see the ACTUAL letter (ie, not a photocopy)? That's stretching it a bit, IMHO.

 

[Ludicolo]

I guess by the letter of the law, if the attending offers you a copy of his/her own accord, then you may not be in violation. But I agree with WS - should you accept it? Her point is that you can’t and shouldn't ask the letter writer for a copy (sealed or unsealed) yourself. As an LOR writer myself, I won’t even consider offering a copy until after the match is complete. Avoid the conflict entirely.

 

[bjackrian]

I agree that ethically it's a situation that I wouldn't want to get into. Plus, I feel like I'd get a stronger letter if I didn't see it since it makes the letter writers more comfortable and a better letter is obviously to your benefit. So in practice I don't think we disagree. 🙂

That said, the reason the disclosure waiver is there is that under FERPA, you are entitled to view the entirety of your academic record at your school. Since the school handles LORs, they could conceivably be forced to reveal the LOR to you if you don't sign the waiver. The waiver gives the school the authority to exclude LORs if you ever ask for your academic record. At least that's how similar LOR waivers were explained to me when applying for college and med school.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I agree that ethically it's a situation that I wouldn't want to get into. Plus, I feel like I'd get a stronger letter if I didn't see it since it makes the letter writers more comfortable and a better letter is obviously to your benefit. So in practice I don't think we disagree. 🙂

That said, the reason the disclosure waiver is there is that under FERPA, you are entitled to view the entirety of your academic record at your school. Since the school handles LORs, they could conceivably be forced to reveal the LOR to you if you don't sign the waiver. The waiver gives the school the authority to exclude LORs if you ever ask for your academic record. At least that's how similar LOR waivers were explained to me when applying for college and med school.

I, and any decent lawyer, would probably argue that the letters are not technically part of your academic record and that while the school possesses them, they are only custodians, and that the real owners are the letter writers themselves.

But then I'm not an attorney and we're probably splitting hairs here. All I know is that when people do NOT waive the right to read the letters, they are read with a much more cynical eye than when they are waived.

We'll see if ERAS responds to my emailed query regarding this issue.

 

[bjackrian]

We'll see if ERAS responds to my emailed query regarding this issue.

Please post it if they do--I'm interested in what it means (it wouldn't be a bad idea for them to clarify in their instructions what the waiver means so questions like this don't come up).

 

[futuredo32]

All I know is that when people do NOT waive the right to read the letters, they are read with a much more cynical eye than when they are waived.

How would the reader of the LORs know if it was waived or not? At MSUCOM, we were told to ask our letter writers to mail the letters directly to us so that we could mail all 3 or 4 letters to MSUCOM at the same time, reducing the chances of letters being lost (sad, but true). At a recent Campus Day, we were told that there is nothing on ERAS for school officials or students to check/not check if the right to read our letters was waived or not. We were told that residency programs would have no idea if we had waived our right to read the letters or not.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

How would the reader of the LORs know if it was waived or not? At MSUCOM, we were told to ask our letter writers to mail the letters directly to us so that we could mail all 3 or 4 letters to MSUCOM at the same time, reducing the chances of letters being lost (sad, but true). At a recent Campus Day, we were told that there is nothing on ERAS for school officials or students to check/not check if the right to read our letters was waived or not. We were told that residency programs would have no idea if we had waived our right to read the letters or not.

Incorrect. All letters are marked as to the status of the "waiver". if the letter writer does not specifically mention it in the letter, ERAS puts a stamp on the letter.

 

[futuredo32]

Incorrect. All letters are marked as to the status of the "waiver". if the letter writer does not specifically mention it in the letter, ERAS puts a stamp on the letter.

😱 Thanks for the reply.

Would it be a good idea during our residency interviews to bring up the fact that we were told to ask letter writers to mail the letters directly to us instead of waiving our right to read them and having them sent to the school?

 

[Winged Scapula]

😱 Thanks for the reply.

Would it be a good idea during our residency interviews to bring up the fact that we were told to ask letter writers to mail the letters directly to us instead of waiving our right to read them and having them sent to the school?

I don't know if its a good idea to bring it up unless you are asked.

There used to be a cover letter which went with each letter upon which the student's signature was affixed that they waived their right to see the letter. Not sure if that's still the case.

But I would specifically talk to your school about giving out misinformation because as aPD notes, ERAS *does* know or assumes (if not stated outright) and stamps your letters accordingly. It sounds as if your school has it set up so that everyone sees their letters and is telling you incorrectly that the recipients will never know.

I will be looking for MSUCOM letters this year more closely! 😉

 

[futuredo32]

I don't know if its a good idea to bring it up unless you are asked.

There used to be a cover letter which went with each letter upon which the student's signature was affixed that they waived their right to see the letter. Not sure if that's still the case.

But I would specifically talk to your school about giving out misinformation because as aPD notes, ERAS *does* know or assumes (if not stated outright) and stamps your letters accordingly. It sounds as if your school has it set up so that everyone sees their letters and is telling you incorrectly that the recipients will never know.

I will be looking for MSUCOM letters this year more closely! 😉

Thanks so much🙂. They (MSUCOM) did give us a cover letter, but the cover letter asks the letter writer to send the letter directly to students.
I am going to send an email to MSUCOM. It's too late for me (I already have all of my LORS), and probably a lot of students graduating in 2009, but perhaps they will amend things for following years.

No need to look at MSUCOM letters more closely this year, we're all absolutely awesome.😀

 

[Winged Scapula]

Here is the ERAS reply (which is what I expected it to be):

"Good Morning Kimberli,

Once you have waived your right to view a Letter of Recommendation, you have completely waived your right. Therefore, an applicant cannot view the letter at all, and should not be given a copy of the letter. Any viewing of the letter would completely deceive the letter writer, the reader and violate the FERPA.



ERAS Staff
Association of American Medical Colleges
2450 N Street, N.W. Washington D.C. 20037-1127"

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks so much🙂. They (MSUCOM) did give us a cover letter, but the cover letter asks the letter writer to send the letter directly to students.
I am going to send an email to MSUCOM. It's too late for me (I already have all of my LORS), and probably a lot of students graduating in 2009, but perhaps they will amend things for following years.

I would send them my response from ERAS above. I would be curious as to how MSUCOM is handling the apparent discrepancy between students being told to have copies of their letters and the request for waiver to see the letters. They appear to be forcing you into a situation in which you cannot waive your right and letter readers may not accept the letters as being honest. I'm sure this decision was some administratively made one without fully thinking through the potential ramifications.

No need to look at MSUCOM letters more closely this year, we're all absolutely awesome.😀

Oh ok. Acceptance for all MSUCOM students!😀

 

[bjackrian]

Here is the ERAS reply (which is what I expected it to be):

Thanks--I'll pass the clarification on to the people at my school who I was talking to. 👍

 

[Dr McSteamy]

oops. in my original post, i didn't mean scramble.

i meant if you DON'T MATCH......... then you still have a copy of your letters for the next round.

if you waived your right, ERAS won't give anything back to you.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Well, if you don't match, then ERAS would still have the letters for the following year and your Dean's office would still have them as well and could forward them to programs for another year, so not sure why you would need them.

 

[Dr McSteamy]

Well, if you don't match, then ERAS would still have the letters for the following year and your Dean's office would still have them as well and could forward them to programs for another year, so not sure why you would need them.

oh? i must've understood wrong.

i didn't know that eras would hold the letters for you and allow you to recycle them for the next match.

 

[Winged Scapula]

oh? i must've understood wrong.

i didn't know that eras would hold the letters for you and allow you to recycle them for the next match.

Things may have changed as I recalled them saving the letters (but could be wrong). At any rate, your Dean's office would have them although I would have to ask, why wouldn't you get NEW letters if you failed to match?

Surely you would want something updated, so I see the old letters really only helpful for the scramble. If you applied with 1+ year old letters, I might ask what you've been doing to improve your application since.

 

[subtle1epiphany]

Thanks so much🙂. They (MSUCOM) did give us a cover letter, but the cover letter asks the letter writer to send the letter directly to students.
I am going to send an email to MSUCOM. It's too late for me (I already have all of my LORS), and probably a lot of students graduating in 2009, but perhaps they will amend things for following years.

No need to look at MSUCOM letters more closely this year, we're all absolutely awesome.😀

As for what MSUCOM told us regarding our LoRs, I'd disregard everything they said and instead go by the instructions ERAS gives. I can't help but laugh when our administration gives us advice like this.🙄
I like many things about the school, but their management of many clinical and administrative issues have been far less than optimal.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Things may have changed as I recalled them saving the letters (but could be wrong).

Sadly, I believe WS is wrong. That doesn't happen often, so you should mark your calendars.

Every year when you apply via ERAS, you need to start all over. They save nothing from year to year -- you have to create your application from scratch. This is also true if you apply for a subspecialty that uses ERAS -- so save a copy of your app to save you some time.

...why wouldn't you get NEW letters if you failed to match?

Surely you would want something updated, so I see the old letters really only helpful for the scramble. If you applied with 1+ year old letters, I might ask what you've been doing to improve your application since.

👍

 

[Winged Scapula]

Sadly, I believe WS is wrong. That doesn't happen often, so you should mark your calendars.

Awww...😳 Oh well, the day had to come, didn't it? 😉

Actually after I posted the above, it didn't make sense to me either, but I was too rushed to change it and then forgot about this thread.

Thank you for correcting me.