How many of the 50k applicants a year are just flat-out delusional?

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There are people with less than 3.3 GPAs doing just fine in med school, and there are many DO schools with half the class or more below a 27 MCAT...
See my previous qualifications of "MD and traditional college student with a typical experience" 😛

Of course there are people in those ranges who are in fantastic shape. However a 27 MCAT is not very competitive for an MD (excluding URMs), and a typical college student who didn't fail a year of classes for x reason, or have some kind of extenuating circumstance would typically not be competitive with a 3.3 GPA.
 
See my previous qualifications of "MD and traditional college student with a typical experience" 😛

Of course there are people in those ranges who are in fantastic shape. However a 27 MCAT is not very competitive for an MD (excluding URMs), and a typical college student who didn't fail a year of classes for x reason, or have some kind of extenuating circumstance would typically not be competitive with a 3.3 GPA.
Whoops missed that, my mind read it as "medical school". Agreed for MD odds.

I do think you can be a straight B+ student and have business applying though. Our own Mimelim had a B+ average (3.4 I think?) and got accepted to multiple top 10s, and is now in vascular surgery. I'm downright impressed by anyone managing an above-average sGPA at places like UChicago, MIT, Hopkins too, and think they have the goods to apply.
 
Whoops missed that, my mind read it as "medical school". Agreed for MD odds.

I do think you can be a straight B+ student and have business applying though. Our own Mimelim had a B+ average (3.4 I think?) and got accepted to multiple top 10s, and is now in vascular surgery. I'm downright impressed by anyone managing an above-average sGPA at places like UChicago, MIT, Hopkins too, and think they have the goods to apply.
Well to be fair, I wouldn't consider students graduating from those schools to be "typical students"! I agree, I might be being rather harsh with the 3.3, I was having a bit of trouble trying to draw the line there. If only the admissions process was cut and dry!
 
You Americans have it easy. Here in Canada people get laughed at for applying to med school with anything under 3.7 and a 35 MCAT.

canada doesn't have DO schools so there is less grey area for questionable stats
 
As if the world is always fair. . . I have seen a lot of hospital politics. Sadly, nothing surprises me. My GM always said, "It all comes out in the wash."
 
As if the world is always fair. . . I have seen a lot of hospital politics. Sadly, nothing surprises me. My GM always said, "It all comes out in the wash."


I will say Goro's comment about 50% is on the alarming side of things.
 
I think it's more having poor grades (meaning, less than 3.0 and/or MCAT < low 20s), on top of being totally clueless about the process. Look at how many posts are made here by people who just base their numbers on US Snooze and Worst Report.

@Goro, how would you typically define those who "have no business applying"? I think it's fairly safe to say that (for MD schools, and assuming a traditional student with a typical college experience), all of these would qualify as "no business applying": cGPA and sGPA of less than 3.3 or so, MCAT less than 27, IA for cheating/theft/plagiarism/other more "severe" actions, conviction record (other than traffic violations), inability to communicate in a manner acceptable to the average adult, or no clinical experience to speak of.

Is there anything you can think of that's not included in there?
 
Jeeze, they must not have even read the Morehouse mission statement, it has "emphasis on people of color" right there in it

Wait, schools have mission statements?

😕
 
I worked this girl who got in the low 20s on the mcat and had zero volunteer or shadowing experience at all. She applied in September/October and almost exclusively to Ivies and other big name schools. Needless to say, she didn't end up taking time off for interviews....
 
I'd say 50% of applicants have no business setting foot on a med school campus, except as a standardized patient. The wise gyngyn has written about having to read apps from people who have single digit MCAT scores. Not just in a single category...the entire exam!

How do they even navigate the application process well enough to get their application looked at?? Primary complete and verified (which means they knew how to order a transcript) --> Secondary complete and submitted --> Marked complete (were able to get LOR submitted through AMCAS correctly). I'm not saying those things are terribly complicated, but for someone who only scored at best a 9 on the MCAT, and thought that was fine to apply, I find it hard to believe they are able to do all that on their own. Maybe they had someone helping them?
 
How do they even navigate the application process well enough to get their application looked at?? Primary complete and verified (which means they knew how to order a transcript) --> Secondary complete and submitted --> Marked complete (were able to get LOR submitted through AMCAS correctly). I'm not saying those things are terribly complicated, but for someone who only scored at best a 9 on the MCAT, and thought that was fine to apply, I find it hard to believe they are able to do all that on their own. Maybe they had someone helping them?
Mommy and Daddy, MD
 
According to AAMC data even people with a 3.2 and a 15-17 MCAT have less than a 6% academic dismissal rate and greater than 80% of people in low MCAT, GPA ranges generally graduate medical school. The really big divide happens at around 24-26 MCAT on Step 1 performance. I'm not saying anyone should apply with an MCAT score in those percentile ranges or that schools should accept them, just that most of the people that happen to get in with those stats do just fine in medical school, even if there are far less of them.

Imho the whole "you need to be intelligent to be a doctor" thing is overblown, especially on SDN. You just need to have a soul and not be an idiot. If you want to have an intelligence circle jerk, join academia.
 
But even then, you'd think an MD parent would have enough sense to not let their son or daughter apply with that MCAT. I don't know...

Their spawn lied to them. It was an innocent mistake, did i say 3.8, I meant 2.8. When was the last time your parents looked at your transcripts. Mine would believe me if I told them they named a building after me.
 
Hell no. That's why I said no time off for interviews. It was just shocking watching someone apply to med school without ever bothering to Google tips for getting in or anything...

Ohhh, just reread it. I misread it the first time and saw, "she got in..." and then in my head read "with low 20's." Now that I've had my coffee I'll be more careful. haha
 
How much does one have to donate to get the benefits of legacy?
 
Hell even the delusional pre-meds dont kill me. Its healthcare co workers that dont know anything about healthcare.

One of my MLT's thought you could get into a DO school with a 2.0 gpa....................................

.........................................................................

.........

You Americans have it easy. Here in Canada people get laughed at for applying to med school with anything under 3.7 and a 35 MCAT.

Its true, the terrors of Canada are known to me.
 
Why is Canada so much more competative than the US?

Because a lot of canadian schools screen you out if you literally dont have a 11 on the verbal. If you have a 10, you are out. lol. They dont care that a 10 is 84th percentile on verbal. They want a 11. lol

Also there are no DO schools and to make it even worse their MD schools are in far fewer numbers than ours. We have a lot more MD schools than they do. Naturally you need absurd stats to even stand a chance, and this is why you see so many Canadians wanting to come to the USA.
 
Because a lot of canadian schools screen you out if you literally dont have a 11 on the verbal. If you have a 10, you are out. lol. They dont care that a 10 is 84th percentile on verbal. They want a 11. lol

Also there are no DO schools and to make it even worse their MD schools are in far fewer numbers than ours. We have a lot more MD schools than they do. Naturally you need absurd stats to even stand a chance, and this is why you see so many Canadians wanting to come to the USA.
Doesn't that mean they have an insane shortage of doctors? Wouldn't they need to build more schools ASAP
 
Doesn't that mean they have an insane shortage of doctors? Wouldn't they need to build more schools ASAP

I believe their healthcare pangs are alleviated due to the way their healthcare system works. I dont know the details, but if you are a patient, you probably want to be one in Canada, not the USA.

For example, the prescription medicine I used to have for my illness was around 80 dollars a refill. That same medicine costs me 12 dollars in Canada. Their system is quite different.

I need to read up on it.
 
Doesn't that mean they have an insane shortage of doctors? Wouldn't they need to build more schools ASAP

I thought the same thing so I looked some things up. First glance:

Yes, Canada had a doctor shortage in the 90s.

They took steps to fix it: I.e they increased medical school seats and made it easier for IMGs to gain licensing.

Now they have a glut of specialists and many are unable to find work due to: 1) the increase in supply described above 2) increased mid level provider care and 3) established specialists are generally in private practice and have very tight control over their market (e.g a group of 3 spine surgeons has an established market and would drive out a lone wolf that decided to open an office in their town and they wouldn't let her join their group to keep their volume/profits unaltered). Also current specialists generally finance their own retirement and thus doctors tend to postpone retirement as much as possible.

Interesting cycle Canada seems to have going on up there. It should also be noted they don't have a managing workforce body like Britain or the U.S. so they kind of did a knee jerk when the shortage got bad and it backfired for a subset of doctors (specialists) big time.

I need to read up more on it. There doesn't really seem to be a mention of a primary care shortage.
 
I believe their healthcare pangs are alleviated due to the way their healthcare system works. I dont know the details, but if you are a patient, you probably want to be one in Canada, not the USA.

For example, the prescription medicine I used to have for my illness was around 80 dollars a refill. That same medicine costs me 12 dollars in Canada. Their system is quite different.

I need to read up on it.
I lived a while in Scandinavia...it really is incredible how much better their system is for the patients.

But for their med schools to have top decile screens, there is either way higher demand than in the US (odd since docs are paid much better here) or way lower supply (odd since that should be harmful and really problematic considering we're already facing shortage).
 
I thought the same thing so I looked some things up. First glance:

Yes, Canada had a doctor shortage in the 90s.

They took steps to fix it: I.e they increased medical school seats and made it easier for IMGs to gain licensing.

Now they have a glut of specialists and many are unable to find work due to: 1) the increase in supply described above 2) increased mid level provider care and 3) established specialists are generally in private practice and have very tight control over their market (e.g a group of 3 spine surgeons has an established market and would drive out a lone wolf that decided to open an office in their town and they wouldn't let her join their group to keep their volume/profits unaltered). Also current specialists generally finance their own retirement and thus doctors tend to postpone retirement as much as possible.

Interesting cycle Canada seems to have going on up there. It should also be noted they don't have a managing workforce body like Britain or the U.S. so they kind of did a knee jerk when the shortage got bad and it backfired for a subset of doctors (specialists) big time.

I need to read up more on it. There doesn't really seem to be a mention of a primary care shortage.
Interesting. With things so bad for specialists, it really doesn't make sense to me how there is much greater competition for med seats than in the US...
 
I thought the same thing so I looked some things up. First glance:

Yes, Canada had a doctor shortage in the 90s.

They took steps to fix it: I.e they increased medical school seats and made it easier for IMGs to gain licensing.

Now they have a glut of specialists and many are unable to find work due to: 1) the increase in supply described above 2) increased mid level provider care and 3) established specialists are generally in private practice and have very tight control over their market (e.g a group of 3 spine surgeons has an established market and would drive out a lone wolf that decided to open an office in their town and they wouldn't let her join their group to keep their volume/profits unaltered). Also current specialists generally finance their own retirement and thus doctors tend to postpone retirement as much as possible.

Interesting cycle Canada seems to have going on up there. It should also be noted they don't have a managing workforce body like Britain or the U.S. so they kind of did a knee jerk when the shortage got bad and it backfired for a subset of doctors (specialists) big time.

I need to read up more on it. There doesn't really seem to be a mention of a primary care shortage.


Jesus. That sounds awful. Doctor's not finding jobs?!!?

Regardless its still extremely competitive.
 
I believe their healthcare pangs are alleviated due to the way their healthcare system works. I dont know the details, but if you are a patient, you probably want to be one in Canada, not the USA.

For example, the prescription medicine I used to have for my illness was around 80 dollars a refill. That same medicine costs me 12 dollars in Canada. Their system is quite different.

I need to read up on it.

A friend of mine went to France and it turns out he had an ear infection. They treated him for some minor injury/bleeding (he originally went in for an accident) and found the ear infection. Prescribed antibiotics, pain killers for the injuries, given a bed. 50 Euro. So like 60$. Obviously not a French citizen/national and no insurance to speak of. Could you imagine? The antibiotics alone here would have cost him like 300$, maybe even with insurance depending on the prescription.
 
A friend of mine went to France and it turns out he had an ear infection. They treated him for some minor injury/bleeding (he originally went in for an accident) and found the ear infection. Prescribed antibiotics, pain killers for the injuries, given a bed. 50 Euro. So like 60$. Obviously not a French citizen/national and no insurance to speak of. Could you imagine? The antibiotics alone here would have cost him like 300$, maybe even with insurance depending on the prescription.

Indeed it is absolutely insane.
 
I believe their healthcare pangs are alleviated due to the way their healthcare system works. I dont know the details, but if you are a patient, you probably want to be one in Canada, not the USA.

For example, the prescription medicine I used to have for my illness was around 80 dollars a refill. That same medicine costs me 12 dollars in Canada. Their system is quite different.
A friend of mine went to France and it turns out he had an ear infection. They treated him for some minor injury/bleeding (he originally went in for an accident) and found the ear infection. Prescribed antibiotics, pain killers for the injuries, given a bed. 50 Euro. So like 60$. Obviously not a French citizen/national and no insurance to speak of. Could you imagine? The antibiotics alone here would have cost him like 300$, maybe even with insurance depending on the prescription.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/22/3/89.full
 
If you want to have an intelligence circle jerk, join academia.

Or SDN, amirite?

Some newer MD schools have been kind to low stat applicants. I know a guy who got into TCMC with a 24 and a 3.0. So, those numbers must not be delusional for MD, assuming strategic application. I'd say lower than 2.8, 21 is a total waste of application fees. Just go home. Or, you know, at least go to CC or some other post-bacc science program to boost stats.

Then again... all those delusional applicants not only make serious students look that much better, they help subsidize the application process for everyone else. I'm sure there are costs associated with evaluating applications, to which the fees are applied. But I'm sure those costs are lower for applications that can just be dismissed without further review once the low stats are noticed.

So, don't think of them as delusional. Think of them as helping to keep per capita application fees low.
 
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It's because other countries have decided that affordable healthcare is a more valuable national strategy than allowing big pharma/healthcare executives/insurance providers/etc/etc to pocket billions a year.
Yeah dat single payer system tho

It's interesting when you step into the Allo boards and see all these well educated people saying it could never work that way for us. After seeing it first hand I have to wonder what has them so convinced. Their culture is quite similar to ours, both the patients and doctors are happier and clearly they have a better system. Why can't we start copying it?
 
Yeah dat single payer system tho

It's interesting when you step into the Allo boards and see all these well educated people saying it could never work that way for us. After seeing it first hand I have to wonder what has them so convinced. Their culture is quite similar to ours, both the patients and doctors are happier and clearly they have a better system. Why can't we start copying it?

Too many billions in the way.
 
Yeah dat single payer system tho

It's interesting when you step into the Allo boards and see all these well educated people saying it could never work that way for us. After seeing it first hand I have to wonder what has them so convinced. Their culture is quite similar to ours, both the patients and doctors are happier and clearly they have a better system. Why can't we start copying it?

While I totally agree that we are not actually a civilized country until everyone in this country can afford access to care, the hive of scum and villainy that is Allo does have some good points.

1) People are entitled to care but how much care? If you are a chain smoker your insurance costs go up because you will cost the system more money but not in an equitable single player system. Why should comparatively healthy people pay for other people's mistakes?

2) If you make access to care universal then you have two choices: You increase the supply of care providers to the point where care providers make significantly less than they currently do. How could we finance such a decision with the current state of higher education? Or you live with the fact that people will have massive wait times for primary care. We can't even afford to provide effective and efficient primary care to the currently insured folks in this country and people do not tend to use primary care effectively to begin with (e.g. using the ER for primary care, never going for regular checkups, etc) so how are we going to do even more with an all-insured system?

3) Even if everyone is insured, how do we convince docs to go to the boonies where they are needed the most without somehow restricting their professional freedom? (The answer is probably we don't and make people serve in the boonies for a set amount of time before they are allowed to fly solo like they do in other countries, my home country included where it's called "doing a rural" in Spanish).


Also the idea of having an increased social burden for financing the most expensive care which can at times be futile (e.g. keeping someone on a ventilator for a year when they have zero quality of life, "doing everything" or a full code on a 90 year old diabetic suffering from cardiac arrest because the family wants you to try everything, extensive interventions on sub-18 week premies, etc.) but that is more of an ethical minefield altogether that requires a case by case analysis to be fair.

Don't get me wrong. I think single payer is for sure the way to go but at the very least we have to subsidize higher education before we can convince smart, young people to give up their lives for low compensation AND high debt. While the reasons I listed above are legitimate, I think they are soluble and the importance of providing equitable care is greater than the values they seem to tout.
 
Wow, I don't understand how that is even possible...
I don't remember exactly what my claim was at one point on this site but I'm pretty sure I said I could get a 20 on the MCAT after 6-8 craft beers. I stand by that. I think at the point you're missing half the questions.
 
I don't remember exactly what my claim was at one point on this site but I'm pretty sure I said I could get a 20 on the MCAT after 6-8 craft beers. I stand by that. I think at the point you're missing half the questions.
lol same here. Could probably score 20-25 with little sleep while tipsy. some ppl are just not cut out for this
 
lol same here. Could probably score 20-25 with little sleep while tipsy. some ppl are just not cut out for this

I scored much better on my MCAT retake even though I only slept 1 Hour the night before. I was literally thinking about no showing as I thought there would be no shot with just 1 hour of sleep. I slept 1 Hour the night before because despite going to sleep at 8PM for a 8AM test, I was a nervous wreck all night.

Later while taking the test, I learned that adrenaline is extremely powerful.
 
I scored a 22 cold just to see what the real test was like. I didn't take breaks bc they wouldn't let us touch our phone or leave the room so I said screw it.

Edit: plus I did want to get done ASAP bc I did have beers, etc waiting for me at my friends annual party
 
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