How many of you were misguided by their home program

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JSI124

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How many were told to be shoo-ins but ended not matching? Just wondering if being hypocritical to their own students is something common in the match process.

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How many were told to be shoo-ins but ended not matching? Just wondering if being hypocritical to their own students is something common in the match process.

I was, along with "I was surprised to hear it was you who didn't match; I was expecting it to be someone else. Every year there are excellent candidates who don't match." Whatever. I'm basically over it now, but I'd still like to know what happened.
 
I was very disappointed when I heard from a few friends that it happened to them as well. I really do not see a point in doing that to any applicant, let alone to your own student. Well, I discussed that with a member of a selection committee who phrased it very nicely: "Match is tailored to fit the programs and not applicants. All that programs try to do is make the applicants rank them first as then they get to pick."
 
Well, I discussed that with a member of a selection committee who phrased it very nicely: "Match is tailored to fit the programs and not applicants. All that programs try to do is make the applicants rank them first as then they get to pick."

This is correct.
I do think that most med schools try to give students realistic advice, but it's hard for them too. A lot of students want to apply to stuff like derm and rads, when they would be a shoe-in for stuff like internal medicine. The school has to tread a fine line between discouraging people vs. encouraging them. My school actually did tell students not to apply to competitive specialties if they thought the student might have a hard time getting in. Ultimately, it is the student's choice whether to take a risk or not, and sometimes very good applicants do not match. This happens with fellowship matching too...the program wants what it thinks are the best applicants for THEM...they aren't necessarily trying to find the most qualified people...rather they are picking among a group of qualified folks who made the cut for the interview, and at that point it can become very subjective.
 
It would seem to be a slap in the face if your home program, which knows you and your work ethic the best, didn't accept you.
 
Not necessarily.
For some of the more competitive medical schools, there are a ton of 4th years going into fields like ortho and derm. The school cannot possibly take them all, even if the school feels they are all qualified for the field. For example, if 10 people are going into ortho and derm, but the place only has 5 spots for ortho and derm, they aren't going to be able to take everybody, or even come close to doing so.
 
Not necessarily.
For some of the more competitive medical schools, there are a ton of 4th years going into fields like ortho and derm. The school cannot possibly take them all, even if the school feels they are all qualified for the field. For example, if 10 people are going into ortho and derm, but the place only has 5 spots for ortho and derm, they aren't going to be able to take everybody, or even come close to doing so.

In my case, it's similar to the numbers you're giving, 15 of us applied for ortho; my home program had 4 spots in the match, they picked 3 from my class that they wanted (never figured out if that was ranked to match or ranked total).
 
...the program wants what it thinks are the best applicants for THEM...they aren't necessarily trying to find the most qualified people...rather they are picking among a group of qualified folks who made the cut for the interview, and at that point it can become very subjective.

I think that whom is "most qualified" is sort of a subjective term itself, both in the eyes of the applicants and the residency programs. Let's say I have high board scores, and good to excellent clinical evaluations and say I want to go to a relatively unknown place in a community setting. And then let's say I was turned down for an interview. (This actually happened to me, so it isn't that hypothetical I guess :rolleyes:) . . .

Now suppose that dragonfly's remark is correct, maybe the program "didn't think I would seriously want to go there", and so they don't want to interview someone who potentially is using them as a "back up." In theory I could call/email the program director and say I was really interested in going to their program and they might be swayed by this argument. I didn't actually do this, but wanted to . . .

Some program directors at places that are community based, but have an academic bent, will say that they aren't just looking for high board scores and might even say that board scores don't matter . . . I think that these places overall place a lower emphasis on grades and academic achievement because the students with top scores traditionally have snubbed their program. One place the PD seemed very pointed telling a group of applicants how they don't want someone with a 99 . . . but seem to want a certain personality instead. Again, it was at a place that I don't think is getting all the top applicants in the world and the residents there obviously didn't read up on their patients . . . not that their residents weren't "smart", just that it wasn't an academic powerhouse, they even said that their residents weren't "rhodes scholars", and it looked bad saying this in front of the applicants. The PD was from Texas, as were a lot of the attendings, and they took a lot of residents from schools in Texas (and the program isn't in Texas!), so yeah, I think there is a lot of unfair bias after getting the interview. If you don't go to a "feeder school" for this residency, then I think you are at a disadvantage, no matter how high your board scores and clinical evals were . . .

I wanted to ask them, "so why are there so many people from Texas here?"
 
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I think that whom is "most qualified" is sort of a subjective term itself, both in the eyes of the applicants and the residency programs. Let's say I have high board scores, and good to excellent clinical evaluations and say I want to go to a relatively unknown place in a community setting. And then let's say I was turned down for an interview. (This actually happened to me, so it isn't that hypothetical I guess :rolleyes:) . . .

Now suppose that dragonfly's remark is correct, maybe the program "didn't think I would seriously want to go there", and so they don't want to interview someone who potentially is using them as a "back up." In theory I could call/email the program director and say I was really interested in going to their program and they might be swayed by this argument. I didn't actually do this, but wanted to . . .

Some program directors at places that are community based, but have an academic bent, will say that they aren't just looking for high board scores and might even say that board scores don't matter . . . I think that these places overall place a lower emphasis on grades and academic achievement because the students with top scores traditionally have snubbed their program. One place the PD seemed very pointed telling a group of applicants how they don't want someone with a 99 . . . but seem to want a certain personality instead. Again, it was at a place that I don't think is getting all the top applicants in the world and the residents there obviously didn't read up on their patients . . . not that their residents weren't "smart", just that it wasn't an academic powerhouse, they even said that their residents weren't "rhodes scholars", and it looked bad saying this in front of the applicants. The PD was from Texas, as were a lot of the attendings, and they took a lot of residents from schools in Texas (and the program isn't in Texas!), so yeah, I think there is a lot of unfair bias after getting the interview. If you don't go to a "feeder school" for this residency, then I think you are at a disadvantage, no matter how high your board scores and clinical evals were . . .

I wanted to ask them, "so why are there so many people from Texas here?"

I agree with all of this. The people who pick residency applicants have their biases, just like med school adcoms and other similar groups. That is why for competitive fields it is often hard to predict who will fall through the match and who won't...and sometimes people who are, or seem to be, more qualified get passed over in favor of others.
 
How many were told to be shoo-ins but ended not matching? Just wondering if being hypocritical to their own students is something common in the match process.

After talking to people in my school I was under the impression that I would have a much more difficult time matching than I did. I waaaaaay over applied and over interviewed (even though I turned down 10 interviews). This is for internal med, not a more competative field--but still, my home program made me feel like I was a lousy candidate even though I wound up matching in my #1 choice at much higher ranked program. You can never trust what people say in good or bad ways. My only regret is that I spent several thousand more dollars than I should have interviewing--but I had some pretty awesome vacations because of the crappy, soul crushing, and very wrong advice from apparently well meaning people at my school.
 
After talking to people in my school I was under the impression that I would have a much more difficult time matching than I did. I waaaaaay over applied and over interviewed (even though I turned down 10 interviews). This is for internal med, not a more competative field--but still, my home program made me feel like I was a lousy candidate even though I wound up matching in my #1 choice at much higher ranked program. You can never trust what people say in good or bad ways. My only regret is that I spent several thousand more dollars than I should have interviewing--but I had some pretty awesome vacations because of the crappy, soul crushing, and very wrong advice from apparently well meaning people at my school.

Unfortunately this happens to some good applicants. The whole process requires the student to do it for THEMSELVES... I'm sorry to say. You just can't take the risk of your med school telling you not to apply to this and that based on your numbers (just because they want to have a low "unmatched" rate). I think everyone should apply to the field that they are actually interested in and let things fall as they may...

Obviously, you need to be a smart applicant and also have a backup/safety plan but we've all worked too hard to not even attempt to pursue a field of medicine that we are most interested. My advice is to apply based on your TRUE interests, be smart about it and let things fall as they may. It's better to pay more upfront on the whole application/interview process and actually take a chance at getting into the field of your choice than to always play it "safe" based on what your med school tells you... because you'll always wonder, "what if?"...
 
After talking to people in my school I was under the impression that I would have a much more difficult time matching than I did. I waaaaaay over applied and over interviewed (even though I turned down 10 interviews). This is for internal med, not a more competative field--but still, my home program made me feel like I was a lousy candidate even though I wound up matching in my #1 choice at much higher ranked program. You can never trust what people say in good or bad ways. My only regret is that I spent several thousand more dollars than I should have interviewing--but I had some pretty awesome vacations because of the crappy, soul crushing, and very wrong advice from apparently well meaning people at my school.

Something like this happened to me too. My school's IM Dept said I probably wouldn't match in IM. I ended up with 34 interviews (10 comm programs), cancelled half. I didnt apply to the best places also because of applying into another specialty. I also spent a lot of money.

One of the "advisors" at my school said I "had no business" applying in IM. Got into a great university affiliated program, and could have gone top 10 but didn't rank high due to location issues :laugh:

On the other hand, my Dean's office was unbelievably helpful. They definitely tried to do everything to increase the chance of my success. Interestingly the Dean's office and IM Dept had a row in the past about why the IM Dept was sabotaging the match list for students wanting to go into IM! The undergrad "advisor" was vehement in "protecting the field" from "undesirables".
 
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What I found extremely hypocritical was that people were approached deep into the interview season with unsolicited "outbursts" of love from their programs' PDs and ended not matching.
 
I was discouraged from applying in certain competitive markets by my school- too many locals interviewing there, they only take people who have done away rotations there...

I did NOT take their advice. I never told my school where I was ultimately applying/interviewing, so there were some shocked people on Match Day. :D
 
I wouldn't call it being misguided. When you seek someone's advice it may be bad or good advice. What you do with that advice is YOUR responsibility. If you don't apply to a certain program because you are told you shouldn't, the only person to blame is yourself.

Everyone tries to help everyone in this process, and blow smoke up everyone's rear end. Maybe you weren't a shoo-in because there was something YOU did wrong during the interview or there was a red flag that was on your application that you hoped was ignored, but wasn't.

Ultimately, you need to take responsibility for your actions. Don't fault the messenger for following their advice.
 
John Deere is right.
However, I do think sometimes med schools give applicants very conservative advice (i.e. discourage them from applying to competitive specialties) because they would rather a student match at a competitive IM or peds program than a "lower tier" ENT, ortho or radiology program, or (more importantly) not match. They don't want to deal with unmatched people, and they know that not matching can be ugly (i.e. 4th year student ends up with no spot after the scramble) and they don't want that to happen. They don't so much care if you like the specialty you get in...they just want you to get in.

I disagree with the advice above that people should apply to any specialty they want. There are certain specialties that without a good class rank (or at least high USMLE scores and powerful letters of recommendation) you are realistically not going to get. derm, plastic surg and urology come to mind.
 
I disagree with the advice above that people should apply to any specialty they want. There are certain specialties that without a good class rank (or at least high USMLE scores and powerful letters of recommendation) you are realistically not going to get. derm, plastic surg and urology come to mind.

I see your point. However, an applicant will know that they are not the most competitive applicant for a particular field... thus, they should apply to whatever this field of choice is AND another "backup" field. There is absolutely NO harm in applying to more than one specialty in an attempt to get into the field of medicine that you truly enjoy (except short-term monetary losses of course). It is for this reason why I don't understand a school's perspective... they should tell the students what they truly believe their chances in a particular field are, so the student knows that when they apply they also need to have an alternative option. I don't think it's right to tell people they shouldn't even apply... you never know what will happen. If you get 1 interview in your field of choice... you still have a shot, just be sure to interview at another option as well.

Disclaimer: I know that not "everyone" has the statistics to realistically get into competitive fields, but schools should just make sure the student understands this fact so they can develop their application plan appropriately. That being said... I know where you are coming from Dragonfly...
 
I see your point. However, an applicant will know that they are not the most competitive applicant for a particular field... thus, they should apply to whatever this field of choice is AND another "backup" field. There is absolutely NO harm in applying to more than one specialty in an attempt to get into the field of medicine that you truly enjoy (except short-term monetary losses of course). It is for this reason why I don't understand a school's perspective... they should tell the students what they truly believe their chances in a particular field are, so the student knows that when they apply they also need to have an alternative option. I don't think it's right to tell people they shouldn't even apply... you never know what will happen. If you get 1 interview in your field of choice... you still have a shot, just be sure to interview at another option as well.

Disclaimer: I know that not "everyone" has the statistics to realistically get into competitive fields, but schools should just make sure the student understands this fact so they can develop their application plan appropriately. That being said... I know where you are coming from Dragonfly...

I don't really disagree, but from the school's point of view, they may not want large numbers of people applying to stuff like IM or peds as "backups". I know this was true for my school...they felt that it would hurt the "legitimate" IM and peds applicants if our school became known as a place that had a lot of people applying to these fields as a backup. It is selfish of the schools, for sure, but they are looking after their own interests in some cases. For whatever reason, applying to multiple specialties was definitely discouraged at my school, though applying for prelim years as a backup was not. I guess they just felt that applying to multiple specialties showed a lack of focus too...
 
I'm only a 3rd year right now, and haven't actually used the advice/help yet, but I am considering it...

What my Dean's office will do is take a look at all your stuff, and actually go back 10 years and show you where students with similar scores and grades as you ACTUALLY matched from the school. Granted this can be misleading and must be taken with a grain of salt, but I don't think a school could give you a more accurate description of where you stand than that.

Some PD are better than others. The PD at my Surgery department basically said how they screen for interviews (set ERAS to weed out anyone below Step 1 national average, get interviews, then drop it down about 10 points and at random screen applications, and for no particular reason, choose a few to interview).

I have a cautious optimism about the process, because I destroyed the boards and have near AOA grades, but am geographically constricted (still have about 14 programs I can apply to including 5 university programs and a handful of university affiliated) and not entirely sold on my home program. Here is hoping for the best.

And the match is, atleast in theory, actually skewed in the students favor. They go down your list and match you to the highest available spot on your list... all programs can rank you #1 except your number #1 pick, but as long as there is a spot needing to be filled at your #1 and you are next on their rank list, you get that spot, to the dismay of all your other programs. Programs don't like to go far down their list, so they try to assure themselves that the people they are ranking high are also ranking them high, but in the end of the day, the program wants the applicants they think the highest of.
 
What I found extremely hypocritical was that people were approached deep into the interview season with unsolicited "outbursts" of love from their programs' PDs and ended not matching.

Are you my Applicant Twin???? I had basically the same thing happen to me. I was a kick-a++ student at my home institution in Gen Surg. The surgery dept sent me as their representative on an all-expenses-paid trip across the country to the ACS National Conference. I was told before-during-and after my interview that they couldn't wait to see me the next year as a resident. They have been doing this trip for 4 years and every year except this one (me) they have matched that applicant from my school. I rocked my sub-I, got Honors from a notoriously hard grader and med-student hater...I mean this guy usually won't talk to 2nd year residents because they are only "7th year med students." My LOR's were great and from some of the biggest people in the program.

Everyone knew that I wanted a spot there. I know that my numbers were average, but not totally sucky. And then came Black Monday. "Not Matched" Had to scramble. Am now a fricken Prelim in Gen Surg at my program. When I called their office, the Program Director told me to walk over to their office...I walked in and he offered me a contract...so that was nice...didn't have some of the horrors of scrambling. However, now I have to start all over with the application process and all that crap. Because even though he has told me that I will be a shoe-in if a 2 spot opens up...or they will take me as a cat next year....how can I believe him?
 
Are you my Applicant Twin???? I had basically the same thing happen to me. I was a kick-a++ student at my home institution in Gen Surg. The surgery dept sent me as their representative on an all-expenses-paid trip across the country to the ACS National Conference. I was told before-during-and after my interview that they couldn't wait to see me the next year as a resident. They have been doing this trip for 4 years and every year except this one (me) they have matched that applicant from my school. I rocked my sub-I, got Honors from a notoriously hard grader and med-student hater...I mean this guy usually won't talk to 2nd year residents because they are only "7th year med students." My LOR's were great and from some of the biggest people in the program.

Everyone knew that I wanted a spot there. I know that my numbers were average, but not totally sucky. And then came Black Monday. "Not Matched" Had to scramble. Am now a fricken Prelim in Gen Surg at my program. When I called their office, the Program Director told me to walk over to their office...I walked in and he offered me a contract...so that was nice...didn't have some of the horrors of scrambling. However, now I have to start all over with the application process and all that crap. Because even though he has told me that I will be a shoe-in if a 2 spot opens up...or they will take me as a cat next year....how can I believe him?

Did not happen to me! At least you should now know that your Dept is not the place where you should continue your training.
 
It sounds like they wanted her somewhat, since they pretty much gave her a prelim spot. It does suck, though. Perhaps if she is female, that may have been a factor for some attendings? I'm just speculating. Perhaps there were some faculty who strongly wanted her, and others who were not as enthused?
If I were in this situation, I would be looking around on Findaresident and everywhere else, because there are PGY2 surgical spots that come up occasionally. Maintaining good relationships w/faculty @her home program could help with networking, even if no spot opens up at her particular program.
 
It sounds like they wanted her somewhat, since they pretty much gave her a prelim spot. It does suck, though. Perhaps if she is female, that may have been a factor for some attendings? I'm just speculating. Perhaps there were some faculty who strongly wanted her, and others who were not as enthused?
If I were in this situation, I would be looking around on Findaresident and everywhere else, because there are PGY2 surgical spots that come up occasionally. Maintaining good relationships w/faculty @her home program could help with networking, even if no spot opens up at her particular program.

Yeah I don't know man, gensurg prelim spots aren't highly coveted, I think she's right to consider that a slap in the face and be bitter about it. Luckily, I'm sure this time next year it'll all be a distant (albeit grudging) memory and she'll probably be right on pace without missing a step. Good luck to her.
 
You're probably better off in the end doing your residency somewhere else. In medicine, every institution has their own way of doing things. It's better for you if you have done your training some place else as well.
 
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