How many people actually want to go to DO school?

[SLC]

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You are right. Orthopod is an orthopod regardless DO or MD. But what you don't get is how much harder for a DO to match into ortho program than an MD counterpart.

When you consider AOA Ortho residencies, the chances are better for DO's to match. It's close but the average is somewhere around 3% of MD's match Ortho and 4% of DO's.

 

[rolark]

.

 

[flatearth22]

According to one of the people who's a DO student around here, ~5% of DO students are hardcore DO (totally into the philosophy, OMM, uniqueness from allopathy, etc.). The other ~95% just want to become physicians and are at the DO school because they either didn't have the stats to get into a US MD school or they are geographically limited. These students don't really care about OMM and most definitely would have gone to a US MD school if they could had gotten in or if they weren't geographically limited.

It's those 5%, however, that eventually become leaders in the AOA and keep the DO brand separate from MD. Without them the two would have merged a long time ago.

 

[bkprodigy]

When you consider AOA Ortho residencies, the chances are better for DO's to match. It's close but the average is somewhere around 3% of MD's match Ortho and 4% of DO's.

I was talking about MD residencies. I guess AOA ortho residencies are good as long as the applicant is ok with the location.

 

[SLC]

I was talking about MD residencies. I guess AOA ortho residencies are good as long as the applicant is ok with the location.

Definitely. They aren't always goig to be in the most desirable of locations, and they are often in small hospitals, but if you want Ortho above all else then they might save the day.

That being said, even though the rates are a little higher for DO's, there are still more MD Ortho's being minted every year based on the sheer outnumbering of MD students.

 

[fingerscrossedd]

Just going to throw in here that I'm relieved and pleased that this thread produced something of substance that may be informative/insightful to other members. Just because two questions may seem identical does not neccessarily mean the answers to each are the same. This isn't Yahoo! questions: it's a forum, and with each thread exists the possibility for renewed, new, updated discussion. Don't shoot down a thread because you think it's already been discussed - give it a chance, and things like this can happen.

 

[MedBound1]

Just going to throw in here that I'm relieved and pleased that this thread produced something of substance that may be informative/insightful to other members. Just because two questions may seem identical does not neccessarily mean the answers to each are the same. This isn't Yahoo! questions: it's a forum, and with each thread exists the possibility for renewed, new, updated discussion. Don't shoot down a thread because you think it's already been discussed - give it a chance, and things like this can happen.

group hug now? 👍

 

[fingerscrossedd]

😍😍😍

group hug now? 👍

 

[FattySlug]

The only thing offensive about this post is how many times it has already been covered on this forum, and therefore the lack of necessity of you posting this thread. Search "MD vs DO" or simply "DO" and you will get a ton of threads that go over the arguments for and against attending DO school over, and over, and over again.

I think the thread is valid. It's not MD vs. DO but asking who actually want DO instead of MD not because they don't have the stats to make it.

I haven't read a lot of the posts in this thread because I despise many of the posters in it, but I think OP's question is valid. I have met some docs who are DOs that think OMT is bull****, are very smart, and were definitely capable of getting into an allopathic school. So I think it is fair to ask how many are out there that are legitimately interested. And I'm not counting the trolls on SDN who had a 24 MCAT, got into DO school, and have now made it their mission to defend it when we all know they would have sucked monkey dick to get into an allopathic school.

 

[235009]

I also met a ton of other MD's in my pre-medical career; attendings, residents, and students alike. Almost uniformly they told me to reconsider medicine, that I'd end up hating it and that it would be a mistake to attend. They said they wouldn't go if they could do things over. They told me I'd make better money in other careers etc. (As if I was motivated by money). It was a turnoff honestly.

I only met a handful of DO's as they are few and far between in my home area. But what struck me was that they all told me that they loved medicine, loved their jobs, and that they loved medical school and would do it again in a heart beat if they had a do-over in life. They seemed so positive about everything, and really encouraged me to go into medicine. They didn't push me to DO school, but they did give me the impression that there might be something about becoming a DO that would make me happier in the end. I mean if there's all this stigma, and DO's are apparently "second class" doctors; then why were these guys so happy while all the MD's seemed so miserable.

i'm not very surprised by your experience. i think DOs are more grateful to be where they are because of poorer performance in undergrad. They feel that the DO school gave them a second chance. On the other hand most MD students were high achievers before going to med school and likely feel that they could've succeeded in another field. Combine that with the misperception about how much money there is to be made in other fields and how easy those fields are to break into and you get the MDs who say they wouldn't do medicine again. Just look around SDN and you'll see pre-meds, med students and even some residents/attendings who think that they could've waltzed into law/business school, walked out top of their class and made a six or seven figure salary from day one. Very commonly on SDN you'll see people saying that if you're doing it for the money then go to law or business....as if they just throw money at anyone who enters those professions.

So in conclusion I think that medical professionals' misperceptions about their abilities and other careers leads them to say they wouldn't do medicine over again and this is probably more common among MDs who were high achievers before med school and feel like they could've succeeded at anything.

 

[MedBound1]

i'm not very surprised by your experience. i think DOs are more grateful to be where they are because of poorer performance in undergrad. They feel that the DO school gave them a second chance. On the other hand most MD students were high achievers before going to med school and likely feel that they could've succeeded in another field. Combine that with the misperception about how much money there is to be made in other fields and how easy those fields are to break into and you get the MDs who say they wouldn't do medicine again. Just look around SDN and you'll see pre-meds, med students and even some residents/attendings who think that they could've waltzed into law/business school, walked out top of their class and made a six or seven figure salary from day one. Very commonly on SDN you'll see people saying that if you're doing it for the money then go to law or business....as if they just throw money at anyone who enters those professions.

So in conclusion I think that medical professionals' misperceptions about their abilities and other careers leads them to say they wouldn't do medicine over again and this is probably more common among MDs who were high achievers before med school and feel like they could've succeeded at anything.

The average age of an entering DO is also 26 while MD it is 24. That means a larger majority of MD's enter school straight from undergrad and have no real experience working 40+ hours a week for a meager salary. Those type people would probably appreciate it a lot more if they did. DO's on the other hand, have been out of school for an average of 4-5 years.

 

[circulus vitios]

I have a good GPA (~3.8 cGPA/sGPA) and a I'll probably score decently on the MCAT. I plan on applying to MD and DO schools. I'd rather go to an MD school because it's easier and more common to specialize, but I will also happily go to a DO school if I'm given the chance.

 

[MiracleforMD]

I have a good GPA (~3.8 cGPA/sGPA) and a I'll probably score decently on the MCAT. I plan on applying to MD and DO schools. I'd rather go to an MD school because it's easier and more common to specialize, but I will also happily go to a DO school if I'm given the chance.

This seems like the most common mind set. I would also include putting 250K on black at the Palms before going to el caribe.

 

[illegallysmooth]

i'm not very surprised by your experience. i think DOs are more grateful to be where they are because of poorer performance in undergrad. They feel that the DO school gave them a second chance. On the other hand most MD students were high achievers before going to med school and likely feel that they could've succeeded in another field. Combine that with the misperception about how much money there is to be made in other fields and how easy those fields are to break into and you get the MDs who say they wouldn't do medicine again. Just look around SDN and you'll see pre-meds, med students and even some residents/attendings who think that they could've waltzed into law/business school, walked out top of their class and made a six or seven figure salary from day one. Very commonly on SDN you'll see people saying that if you're doing it for the money then go to law or business....as if they just throw money at anyone who enters those professions.

So in conclusion I think that medical professionals' misperceptions about their abilities and other careers leads them to say they wouldn't do medicine over again and this is probably more common among MDs who were high achievers before med school and feel like they could've succeeded at anything.

Thanks for the explanation of how DOs feel, skinMD 🙂 I don't think many of my classmates feel SO GRATEFUL that a DO school gave them a second chance because we did SO POOR in undergrad that we got Bs in organic chem instead of As, lol. A lot of my classmates have previous graduate degrees. I know several of my classmates with 34+ MCATs and 3.7+ GPAs. Many were waitlisted at MD schools and didn't want to apply again (and many of my friends at MD schools were waitlisted and almost attended a DO school). We don't feel less qualified than anyone else, and I wouldn't assume that on average MD students were MUCH HIGHER achievers than DO students prior to medical school. I know a DOs who were pharmacists. I know a DO that got a PhD in physics, became a PA and worked as a PA for 8 years before med school. If your undergrad GPA was 0.3 points higher than his, do you think that makes you more qualified for medical school than him? Were you a higher achiever? Do you think you'll be a better doctor? Your idea that MDs were all super high achievers that feel confident they could succeed at anything and therefore experience more career dissatisfaction than DOs, who weren't such achievers and aren't so confident in their success and therefore feel grateful that any school took a chance on them is just wrong (and offensive, although I know you didn't mean it that way).

If you find happier DOs than MDs, I would look at the environment. Are those MDs in competitive academic settings? Wouldn't surprise me then.

 

[Ironmandoc]

Maybe one?

msu- 3.5/27
ccom - 3.56/28

I'm sure you can find exceptions where there is a couple MD schools that have lower stats for a given year. But nationwide, the average accepted MD matriculant has a 3.65/32 and MSU/CCOM are like the Harvard or WashU (3.9/37 averages) of DO schools.

I have nothing against DO but the stigma exists due to differences in admission difficulty. Probably less than 5% of DO students went DO because they just believe in holistic medicine. I have no problem with DO's competing for allopathic residencies and think they are equally qualified. It's the same reaction of going to Harvard vs. a state school for undergrad, state school student might be found to be the smarter and harder worker once you get going but first impression is 'Wow you went to Harvard??'.

There's a difference between accepted and matriculated students. To say these are the average of "matriculated students accepted" makes no sense. They are two different things and two different sets of statistics...

 

[235788]

To answer your question/point: yes, people unquestionably apply/go D.O. because they couldn't (or thought they couldn't) get into M.D. programs. People also unquestionably go D.O. because they are genuinely interested in osteopathic medicine. The stats may be lower for D.O. programs, but there are also D.O. schools (MSU, CCOM, etc) that have higher matriculant stats than some M.D. schools. I think an applicant is fortunate to get into either program, because at the end of the day, he/she just found out that he/she is going to become a physician. There really is no significant difference between the two degrees - if you can stomach the stigma that you might encounter as a D.O., it's not an issue. Stigma abounds in every corner and avenue of life, and should never be grounds alone to disclude a potential road to actualizing your dream(s)

I don't know about that.... Maybe when compared to the historically black schools of NEOUCOM (accelerated BS/MD)

DO schools only count the grades of a retaken class. So, with a C in Chem followed by a retaken A, a DO school would count that as a 4.0 and an MD would count it as a 3.0 (average of the two).

So, you CANNOT compare DO GPA with MD GPA. Even one C among a slew of A's can bring down a BCPM GPA alot.

Also, who knows how DO schools consider MCATS (it might also vary by school). Do they just take the highest subsection? Do they take averages? This also varies by MD school which makes it hard to compare MCATS of MD schools.

👍 Exactly.

According to one of the people who's a DO student around here, ~5% of DO students are hardcore DO (totally into the philosophy, OMM, uniqueness from allopathy, etc.). The other ~95% just want to become physicians and are at the DO school because they either didn't have the stats to get into a US MD school or they are geographically limited. These students don't really care about OMM and most definitely would have gone to a US MD school if they could had gotten in or if they weren't geographically limited.

It's those 5%, however, that eventually become leaders in the AOA and keep the DO brand separate from MD. Without them the two would have merged a long time ago.

👍👍 Sounds about right.

Just going to throw in here that I'm relieved and pleased that this thread produced something of substance that may be informative/insightful to other members. Just because two questions may seem identical does not neccessarily mean the answers to each are the same. This isn't Yahoo! questions: it's a forum, and with each thread exists the possibility for renewed, new, updated discussion. Don't shoot down a thread because you think it's already been discussed - give it a chance, and things like this can happen.

Yeah, people need to quit being turds. I feel like it's always some dude with <100 posts who is the first to call the OP a troll and others mention the search function.

Some threads are really dumb... Like yesterdays thread asking the length in time to become a CT surgeon (use google!!!!!!), but most can generate some good incite.

 

[MedBound1]

There's a difference between accepted and matriculated students. To say these are the average of "matriculated students accepted" makes no sense. They are two different things and two different sets of statistics...

So.... maybe my wording was improper as I wrote it pretty fast. But the average accepted applicant and average matriculated applicant for MD is a near identical number. The only ones you subtract from that are ones that got accepted and just decided not to go to medical school after being accepted. I'm talking overall, not on a school-by-school basis.. which is obviously different for accepted vs matriculated.

These two statistics are nearly identical.. I don't see your point. Please elaborate.

 

[kpcrew]

there are people who defer their acceptance and every matriculant has been accepted so accepted md matriculant is redundant

 

[bkprodigy]

This thread is funny. I don't see how threads like this go on and on.

While some highly qualified students with good stats enter DO either by choice or because they somehow didn't land an acceptance to MD school, we all know that majority of the DO matriculants have lower stats than MD matriculants.

That shows one thing and one thing only: MD matriculants in GENERAL are better students when they ENTER medical school than DO counterpart.

But get this, best students coming in are not the best students going out. In fact, DO graduates are just as good as MD graduates. It's just that as a DO, your choice is limited as far as residency specialties and locations are concerned.

Who cares about your stats when you enter medical school? The ball game starts once you're in.

 

[Hemorrage]

This thread is funny. I don't see how threads like this go on and on.

While some highly qualified students with good stats enter DO either by choice or because they somehow didn't land an acceptance to MD school, we all know that majority of the DO matriculants have lower stats than MD matriculants.

That shows one thing and one thing only: MD matriculants in GENERAL are better students when they ENTER medical school than DO counterpart.

But get this, best students coming in are not the best students going out. In fact, DO graduates are just as good as MD graduates. It's just that as a DO, your choice is limited as far as residency specialties and locations are concerned.

Who cares about your stats when you enter medical school? The ball game starts once you're in.

DO acceptees in "general" have lower statistics, however, one can delve further into the reasons why they have lower stats. Theres a whole slew of reasons, obviously the majority of them simply had lower grades, however, i'm sure theres a certain percentage of students in this group that simply went to a school where the average GPA is in the mid 2's, which obviously makes getting a 3.7+ incredible difficult when compared to other MD applicant counterparts whom several of which simply got good grades at a fairly easy school.

The only real difference between DO students and MD students is the MCAT IMO. The mcat is the equalizer in this game and DO applicants generally have lower MCAT scores due to their inability to perform at the MD acceptance level on the MCAT. Does this predict anything about their skill as a practicing physician? Of course not. If anything i'm guessing the board exams give you a much better picture of this. Thats why there are several DO/MD's entering tertiary care residencies but at the same time there is a whole slew of both MD's AND DO's that end up doing primary care (im assuming this is because they didn't match not due to interest)

At the end of the day the MD vs. DO debate will never end just like every other debate such as Mac vs. PC, iphone vs android, etc. How many people does this actually matter to though? Just a select few, usually the tech maniacs. Everyone else is usually content with what they have and don't need to debate about whether their [X] is inferior or superior to someone else's [Y] when they both have the same function

 

[235009]

The average age of an entering DO is also 26 while MD it is 24. That means a larger majority of MD's enter school straight from undergrad and have no real experience working 40+ hours a week for a meager salary. Those type people would probably appreciate it a lot more if they did. DO's on the other hand, have been out of school for an average of 4-5 years.

this is a really good point. i'm sure this also contributes to the discrepancy.

i'm going to ignore the guy who took great offense to my post by responding with a bunch of "i know a guy" statements. I was generalizing...sure there are a few people who are exceptions to the rule but in general the comparison I made is a valid one and probably explains some of the differences.

 

[Bacchus]

I wanted to go to a DO school. I made the choice. Why? Well, I was a 3.5/29 applicant who got no love from any of the MD schools I applied to. No interview offers whatsoever, except one. I had just submitted my $2000 deposit to PCOM in April (4 months before classes start) and got a late-cycle phone call from Jefferson inviting me to interview. Why didn't I? Well, there was that $2000 I just sent in, in addition to the fact Jefferson told me my application was being reviewed in November when in fact it had never been reviewed and someone speaking on my behalf had to inform me of this. So, I told them over the phone why I wasn't interviewing (including the situation of lying to me) and thanked them for their time and went back to physical chem lab.

 

[illegallysmooth]

this is a really good point. i'm sure this also contributes to the discrepancy.

i'm going to ignore the guy who took great offense to my post by responding with a bunch of "i know a guy" statements. I was generalizing...sure there are a few people who are exceptions to the rule but in general the comparison I made is a valid one and probably explains some of the differences.

Seriously? Your post was about how DOs feel inferior and are therefore happier and grateful for their medical careers. And this is your response? Way to completely miss the point. I wasn't arguing about average stats or trying to prove them wrong bc "I know a guy." I was arguing against your arrogant explanation of how DOs feel about their careers.

 

[killinsound]

Bottom line:

Matriculants to Allopathic schools are generally stronger academically than those to Osteopathic schools.

I've met DO's that are great, I've met MD's that are terrible.

 

[Tummytroubles]

I will probably end up going to a DO and my GPA is 3.5+ (no retakes) and MCAT is 33. I am missing a requirement from my state MD school and if I waited a year and fufllied that requirement could easily get in but I don't want to wait and there is a DO school nearby that I like.

From shadowing, DO's tend to have much better people skills, I don't know if the schools are to credit or the fact that they weren't über nerds in undergrad who studied all the time. Who knows but I want to go into primary care and want a school that emphasizes patient doctor interactions more than research and getting into a competitive residency (not for me). I want a school that will teach me how to be a great primary care dic and I want my patients to feel comfortable and DOs from my observations are better at that.

 

[startswithb]

I will probably end up going to a DO and my GPA is 3.5+ (no retakes) and MCAT is 33. I am missing a requirement from my state MD school and if I waited a year and fufllied that requirement could easily get in but I don't want to wait and there is a DO school nearby that I like.

From shadowing, DO's tend to have much better people skills, I don't know if the schools are to credit or the fact that they weren't über nerds in undergrad who studied all the time. Who knows but I want to go into primary care and want a school that emphasizes patient doctor interactions more than research and getting into a competitive residency (not for me). I want a school that will teach me how to be a great primary care dic and I want my patients to feel comfortable and DOs from my observations are better at that.

I don't get this. This one year, one requirement, whatever it is could affect your whole career. What if you fall in love with something like plastics or radiation oncology? You will also have to take 2 board exams and learn OMM and do tons of "audition rotations." There is still a lot more crap to deal with. I'm not necessarily picking on you specifically anymore; just trying to understand all these little "reasons" like "I didn't like how the admissions department handled my application....etc." Really? This is your career.

 

[purplecricket]

Well to give you my situation, I would love to go to a DO school, because it is medical school in the end and I will go where I get accepted. For me the deciding factor has a lot more to do with tuition/out of state vs. in state, etc. I live far closer to an in-state MD school than the in-state DO school, so I would prefer to go there if accepted, purely on location and price and not because it's an MD school. If given the choice between an OOS MD school and the in-state DO school I would probably choose to stay in-state (although from what I understand it's easier to get accepted in-state than OOS, but you get the idea).

This DO "stigma" doesn't bother me, I've shadowed in the ER and other places and honestly you wouldn't even know the difference unless you looked at their ID badges. And you know what? They all say PHYSICIAN on them. That's the point right?

ETA: This is purely my take on it, if you want MD and get into MD, then go MD. But I don't feel there's any shame in going DO if you really want to be a doctor and that's where you get in.

 

[bkprodigy]

I will probably end up going to a DO and my GPA is 3.5+ (no retakes) and MCAT is 33. I am missing a requirement from my state MD school and if I waited a year and fufllied that requirement could easily get in but I don't want to wait and there is a DO school nearby that I like.

From shadowing, DO's tend to have much better people skills, I don't know if the schools are to credit or the fact that they weren't über nerds in undergrad who studied all the time. Who knows but I want to go into primary care and want a school that emphasizes patient doctor interactions more than research and getting into a competitive residency (not for me). I want a school that will teach me how to be a great primary care dic and I want my patients to feel comfortable and DOs from my observations are better at that.

Dont' hit yourself in the head when you change your mind, which is more frequent than you can imagine now once you start your rotation.

 

[Prettywoman0172]

Some people do choose DO for the "osteopathic approach" but those are few and far between. Some people care more about attending a school they like in a location they like or being close to family - those people are more common. Some people want to be doctors and just don't give a ****.

That would be me....I want to be a doctor and dont care which avenue I have to take.

 

[illegallysmooth]

I don't get this. This one year, one requirement, whatever it is could affect your whole career. What if you fall in love with something like plastics or radiation oncology? You will also have to take 2 board exams and learn OMM and do tons of "audition rotations." There is still a lot more crap to deal with. I'm not necessarily picking on you specifically anymore; just trying to understand all these little "reasons" like "I didn't like how the admissions department handled my application....etc." Really? This is your career.

I see what you're saying. But I think the difficulty of DOs matching into competitive specialities is way overblown. This has been discussed to death, but fewer DOs apply to specialities like plastics so stats on it aren't completely accurate. And of course we have our own residencies.

 

[MiracleforMD]

I see what you're saying. But I think the difficulty of DOs matching into competitive specialities is way overblown. This has been discussed to death, but fewer DOs apply to specialities like plastics so stats on it aren't completely accurate. And of course we have our own residencies.

Uhhhhhh. No.

 

[Miss Terious]

I'm certainly going to apply to DO schools as someone who is considering primary care.
Yes, on average MD schools have higher admission standards but admission standards don't necessarily mean that they produce better doctors. MD schools have a wider variety of options including the potential to go into the more difficult specialties. However, once in medical school, the people competing for those specialties are insanely high achieving students even amongst high achievers.

IMO DO schools provide a nice alternative method for those interested in primary care. (Note: they do have their own AOA residency programs for more competitive specialties but with far fewer slots than MD residencies)

Sent from my SGH-T959V using SDN Mobile

 

[Hemorrage]

Uhhhhhh. No.

uhhh yes. Go take a look at HockeyFan's excel sheet of DO/MD match data for the past 4 years, you'll find that DO's on average match at only a 1-2% less rate to competitive specialty's (primarily due to AOA), if they went ONLY NRMP then yes it would be very low.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't understand SDN sometimes. You clearly have nothing constructive to say, so why bother posting? Is it really that hard to ignore this post? I figured by 29, you would be smarter than that.

And by the way, I did search MD vs DO. Most of what I saw were the differences between the two professions.

My irony sense is tingling..... consider what you say here and how it applies to the original post and what he said. When you see it......

 

[SpecterGT260]

I love the irony of someone posting yet ANOTHER MD vs DO thread questioning MY intelligence...🙄

oh.... apparently this was already covered 👍

 

[MiracleforMD]

uhhh yes. Go take a look at HockeyFan's excel sheet of DO/MD match data for the past 4 years, you'll find that DO's on average match at only a 1-2% less rate to competitive specialty's (primarily due to AOA), if they went ONLY NRMP then yes it would be very low.

Too hungover for this. Someone else feel free to take this.

 

[SpecterGT260]

These threads really get this dude going I've noticed. Anytime anyone says they prefer DO over MD it's like he has a small aneurysm rupture or something.

Face it drizzt3117, some people want to be DO's, DO's are cool. Not everyone is motivated by prestige, and getting the most competitive residency (both field and location). Some just want to be physicians and get on with their lives, they've had good DO mentors, or even (gasp) think the osteopathic philosophy, or OMT are particularly cool. These things happen from time to time, you should learn to live with it.

Most still want to be MD's though, so I suspect you'll be OK in the end.

see below

Sure, and most do it b/c they can't get into MD schools, just saying.

The reason I comment on these threads is to try to combat the spread of bad information.

👍

outright denying that lower selectivity is a motivating factor is incredibly disingenuous. I know many people who have applied to MD schools 1 cycle and then broadened to DO schools the next. I also know many people who simply do not have the stats (<3.6 <27) for MD schools and cut their losses. The truly irritating thing is the people who MD bash or pretend that DO is just intrinsically superior for any number of unsubstantiated reasons (MD people are only after prestige, DOs have better bedside, whatever) and completely neglect the fact that their scores would have made it nearly impossible to matriculate at a US MD school. Most of these people will go on to be fine physicians assuming they pass their boards and are matched on an even playing field, but come on now - am I supposed to believe that 90% of the people who whole-heartedly ascribe to the DO mantra also have DO average credentials by mere coincidence? IMO the people who take on this POV alienate and belittle those in the DO program who didnt have a preference and REALLY just wanted to be physicians. The irony of such a mindset is that they are just as guilty of focusing on things like prestige and other nonsense as they claim the MD students are.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Too hungover for this. Someone else feel free to take this.

are we talking about the fact that the AOA match is not an even playing field so the gross inflation of competitive matches due to AOA simply skews the data as far as a "per capita match rate" comparison goes? 😎

if you go look at NRMP data (which is the only valid comparison until the AOA allows MDs to compete for their spots as well. Otherwise it is an apples to tangerines comparison) DOs are very much underreprestented as compared to their total slice of the healthcare pie in anything other than primary care and psych. To be honest, if we charted DOmatched per specialty per total DO entry against average USMLE score for each specialty I suspect you (not the guy I quoted, the guy he quoted 😎) would be very very upset by the implications.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I will probably end up going to a DO and my GPA is 3.5+ (no retakes) and MCAT is 33. I am missing a requirement from my state MD school and if I waited a year and fufllied that requirement could easily get in but I don't want to wait and there is a DO school nearby that I like.

From shadowing, DO's tend to have much better people skills, I don't know if the schools are to credit or the fact that they weren't über nerds in undergrad who studied all the time. Who knows but I want to go into primary care and want a school that emphasizes patient doctor interactions more than research and getting into a competitive residency (not for me). I want a school that will teach me how to be a great primary care dic and I want my patients to feel comfortable and DOs from my observations are better at that.

i'm sure your observation isn't biased at all by the fact that you've resigned yourself to DO schools.

 

[Bacchus]

i'm sure your observation isn't biased at all by the fact that you've resigned yourself to DO schools.

You could find a better word than resigned.

 

[MiracleforMD]

You could find a better word than resigned.

Settled?

 

[Hemorrage]

are we talking about the fact that the AOA match is not an even playing field so the gross inflation of competitive matches due to AOA simply skews the data as far as a "per capita match rate" comparison goes? 😎

if you go look at NRMP data (which is the only valid comparison until the AOA allows MDs to compete for their spots as well. Otherwise it is an apples to tangerines comparison) DOs are very much underreprestented as compared to their total slice of the healthcare pie in anything other than primary care and psych. To be honest, if we charted DOmatched per specialty per total DO entry against average USMLE score for each specialty I suspect you (not the guy I quoted, the guy he quoted 😎) would be very very upset by the implications.

DOs are underrepresented to begin with. IMO I don't see why including the AOA match is bad- both NRMP and AOA programs produce specialists in a particular field. Granted NRMP training is usually better especially at academic powerhouses, most MD and DO students will not end up in those spots anyway. In the end, a general surgeon that went through AOA is just as qualified as a general surgeon who went though NRMP

 

[Tummytroubles]

see below


👍

outright denying that lower selectivity is a motivating factor is incredibly disingenuous. I know many people who have applied to MD schools 1 cycle and then broadened to DO schools the next. I also know many people who simply do not have the stats (<3.6 <27) for MD schools and cut their losses. The truly irritating thing is the people who MD bash or pretend that DO is just intrinsically superior for any number of unsubstantiated reasons (MD people are only after prestige, DOs have better bedside, whatever) and completely neglect the fact that their scores would have made it nearly impossible to matriculate at a US MD school. Most of these people will go on to be fine physicians assuming they pass their boards and are matched on an even playing field, but come on now - am I supposed to believe that 90% of the people who whole-heartedly ascribe to the DO mantra also have DO average credentials by mere coincidence? IMO the people who take on this POV alienate and belittle those in the DO program who didnt have a preference and REALLY just wanted to be physicians. The irony of such a mindset is that they are just as guilty of focusing on things like prestige and other nonsense as they claim the MD students are.

DO schools do have lower stats but you can't make broad assumptions. When I apply to residency from my DO schools, if I have similar stats to a MD, I don't want them unfairly holding it against me for going into DO. You can't make broad assumptions about DO students. I should be able to choose the best school for the field I want to go into without having to worry about discrimination or people automatically assuming I had low grades and MCAT scores.

Many DO schools are better at training primary care phiscans than a lot of MD schools. It's stupid that people have to go a lesser school for their field simply because someone may discriminate against the letters behind their name if they go to the better school.

, Patients won't know the difference and my goal is to be the best primary care doc I can be and many DO schools outshine a lot of MD schools in this field.

 

[Bacchus]

Settled?

He may have settled. But, insinuating he'll have outcomes less than his expectations at this point is presumptive. His future happiness can't be predicted. May this all turn into a learning experience? Perhaps. If he follows through with primary care he'll be just fine wherever he ends up.

His stats suggest he would have gotten an MD acceptance, but his preference of beginning school now takes precedence. He can't be faulted for that.

As far as his anecdotes, they are just that. But, he's capable of making and rationalizing decisions based on his life experiences. Its something we all do. And, in his experience, DOs provided him better care. He's drawing on the past to influence his future.

He didn't resign to anything. He made a decision based on his life thus far.

 

[drizzt3117]

First of all:

1) ACGME residencies > non-ACGME residencies in essentially all cases

2) DOs are at a significant disadvantage applying to ACGME residencies in competitive specialties.

3) This is especially true for the top program. There is one DO resident out of the 800 at the top 20 rads programs and the number is just as small or smaller in the surgical sub-specs, etc.

4) DO is a viable option for many fields like primary care, EM, OB. anesthesia etc.

 

[Bacchus]

DO schools do have lower stats but you can't make broad assumptions. When I apply to residency from my DO schools, if I have similar stats to a MD, I don't want them unfairly holding it against me for going into DO. You can't make broad assumptions about DO students. I should be able to choose the best school for the field I want to go into without having to worry about discrimination or people automatically assuming I had low grades and MCAT scores.

Many DO schools are better at training primary care phiscans than a lot of MD schools. It's stupid that people have to go a lesser school for their field simply because someone may discriminate against the letters behind their name if they go to the better school.

, Patients won't know the difference and my goal is to be the best primary care doc I can be and many DO schools outshine a lot of MD schools in this field.

Stop saying osteopathic schools are better at primary care training. Chances are, your osteopathic medical faculty will have no significant training time with your primary care residency. That training depends on the facility you do it at.

All this does is continue the debate.

 

[MiracleforMD]

DO schools do have lower stats but you can't make broad assumptions. When I apply to residency from my DO schools, if I have similar stats to a MD, I don't want them unfairly holding it against me for going into DO. You can't make broad assumptions about DO students. I should be able to choose the best school for the field I want to go into without having to worry about discrimination or people automatically assuming I had low grades and MCAT scores.

Many DO schools are better at training primary care phiscans than a lot of MD schools. It's stupid that people have to go a lesser school for their field simply because someone may discriminate against the letters behind their name if they go to the better school.

, Patients won't know the difference and my goal is to be the best primary care doc I can be and many DO schools outshine a lot of MD schools in this field.

Let's play find the hypocrisy.

He may have settled. But, insinuating he'll have outcomes less than his expectations at this point is presumptive. His future happiness can't be predicted. May this all turn into a learning experience? Perhaps. If he follows through with primary care he'll be just fine wherever he ends up.

His stats suggest he would have gotten an MD acceptance, but his preference of beginning school now takes precedence. He can't be faulted for that.

As far as his anecdotes, they are just that. But, he's capable of making and rationalizing decisions based on his life experiences. Its something we all do. And, in his experience, DOs provided him better care. He's drawing on the past to influence his future.

He didn't resign to anything. He made a decision based on his life thus far.

Yeah, you're right. I was just messing around.

 

[Tummytroubles]

Stop saying osteopathic schools are better at primary care training. Chances are, your osteopathic medical faculty will have no significant training time with your primary care residency. That training depends on the facility you do it at.

All this does is continue the debate.

The DO school I want to attend is ranked higher than the MD schools in my area for Primary care. So yes, for me this is true. This is confirmed by the DOs I shadowed from their experiences.

 

[qwerty2012]

Going into the DO route is like playing in the CFL right after the draft instead of NFL...well maybe not to that extreme. You still get to do/learn what you are passionate about and there will be some limitations. But working hard will get you into the big league afterwards.

 

[Hemorrage]

DO schools do have lower stats but you can't make broad assumptions. When I apply to residency from my DO schools, if I have similar stats to a MD, I don't want them unfairly holding it against me for going into DO. You can't make broad assumptions about DO students. I should be able to choose the best school for the field I want to go into without having to worry about discrimination or people automatically assuming I had low grades and MCAT scores.

Many DO schools are better at training primary care phiscans than a lot of MD schools. It's stupid that people have to go a lesser school for their field simply because someone may discriminate against the letters behind their name if they go to the better school.

, Patients won't know the difference and my goal is to be the best primary care doc I can be and many DO schools outshine a lot of MD schools in this field.

How do DO schools outshine MD schools in primary care? Last time I checked MSUCOM was the closest to the top on USNEWs and that's spot #17