How many people go to the Parties during orientation and after test?

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DermViser said:
Remember this when you're on MS-3 rotations to not use your gender as a way to garner better evaluations. Hopefully, there won't be a hypocritical change of heart then. As much as women feel they should be treated equally to men (nothing wrong with that), they seem to have a sudden change of heart, when they can use their gender to gain advantage.
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How exactly would a woman use her gender to her advantage on rotations? Would she offer sexual services to the resident in exchange for an Honors grade?
 
Arkangeloid said:
How exactly would a woman use her gender to her advantage on rotations? Would she offer sexual services to the resident in exchange for an Honors grade?
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I got away with a bunch of stuff my male colleagues in school probably wouldn't have bc I was a girl, I dressed up for everything and put a bunch of makeup on, and had male attendings and faculty
 
Arkangeloid said:
How exactly would a woman use her gender to her advantage on rotations? Would she offer sexual services to the resident in exchange for an Honors grade?
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Well that's blatantly out there, but usually no. More like primping herself (hair, makeup, nails, etc.) and kissing ass to male, tired, sleep-deprived Surgery residents. And on OB-Gyn, by virtue of being female.
 
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fancymylotus said:
I got away with a bunch of stuff my male colleagues in school probably wouldn't have bc I was a girl, I dressed up for everything and put a bunch of makeup on, and had male attendings and faculty
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Ah. Shame on me, then. I'm a chess player, and I forgot what Nimzowitsch always said, "threat is stronger than execution"! Why would a woman need to offer sexual services when she can use the implication of sex to get what she wants?


But damn, it seems like women hold all the cards when we are young. Makes sense, because a woman derives her power from her looks, while a man derives power from his status, money, etc. But as Littlefinger said of Cersei,* looks fade, and with them, a woman's power. I guess it's a small measure of justice.


*"Her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches. Only the first of those is truly her own, and it will soon desert her. I pity her then."

Oh, sorry about the minor Game of Thrones spoilers.
 
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Arkangeloid said:
But damn, it seems like women hold all the cards when we are young. Makes sense, because a woman derives her power from her looks, while a man derives power from his status, money, etc. But as Littlefinger said of Cersei,* looks fade, and with them, a woman's power. I guess it's a small measure of justice.
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Are things really this black and white in your head?
 
DermViser said:
Well that's blatantly out there, but usually no. More like primping herself (hair, makeup, nails, etc.) and kissing ass to male, tired, sleep-deprived Surgery residents. And on OB-Gyn, by virtue of being female.
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Perhaps. While it is easier to garner attention for your looks, if you want anything more than passing attention/a short lived relationship, you have to offer more (at least in residency or in life, for a quality man). You don't have to kiss ass or offer the promise of sex to garner attention.

In many ways, female attractiveness in medicine is a double edged sword: you will get attention but it can come with the assumption that your position is not deserved so you have to work harder to prove that you're just as good.
 
Winged Scapula said:
Perhaps. While it is easier to garner attention for your looks, if you want anything more than passing attention/a short lived relationship, you have to offer more (at least in residency or in life, for a quality man). You don't have to kiss ass or offer the promise of sex to garner attention.

In many ways, female attractiveness in medicine is a double edged sword: you will get attention but it can come with the assumption that your position is not deserved so you have to work harder to prove that you're just as good.
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I was more referring to using one's attributes to help one's clerkship grade.
 
sinombre said:
Are things really this black and white in your head?
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But it's true, isn't it? A woman's power comes from her youth, beauty, and fertility, and it's so apparent that a blind man can see it. It was true in the past, and it's true now. Nightclubs in my city are known to charge covers to older women while letting younger women walk in free.
 
DermViser said:
I was more referring to using one's attributes to help one's clerkship grade.
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Gotcha - although I think my response is still valid especially in light of arks comment that women's power only comes from their looks. Most mature men want more than that (and it is possible to have both),
 
Arkangeloid said:
But damn, it seems like women hold all the cards when we are young.
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Not really. It cuts both ways.

One of my buddies won a med student teaching award last year, and his teaching method (*by his own admission) largely consists of innocent flirtation with all the female medical students. It has been noted that rounds with him take about twice as long when there are female students on service as when there are not.
 
Arkangeloid said:
But it's true, isn't it? A woman's power comes from her youth, beauty, and fertility, and it's so apparent that a blind man can see it. It was true in the past, and it's true now. Nightclubs in my city are known to charge covers to older women while letting younger women walk in free.
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That's just a business model.

You want to attract hot young model/actress/actor types to your club? Then you encourage their business by allowing them in free and discouraging others. You can't tell me that the young overweight women are allowed the same access to those clubs (which are not a microcosm of society at large) as the model/actress types.
 
Arkangeloid said:
But it's true, isn't it? A woman's power comes from her youth, beauty, and fertility, and it's so apparent that a blind man can see it. It was true in the past, and it's true now. Nightclubs in my city are known to charge covers to older women while letting younger women walk in free.
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The problem is that you extrapolate all of societal norms based on the uniquely pathologic microcosm that is clubbing culture....
 
Winged Scapula said:
That's just a business model.

You want to attract hot young model/actress/actor types to your club? Then you encourage their business by allowing them in free and discouraging others. You can't tell me that the young overweight women are allowed the same access to those clubs (which are not a microcosm of society at large) as the model/actress types.
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Yeah, the overweight women are routinely turned away at the door. But that goes with what I said: societies value youth/beauty/fertility in women, as do nightclubs.

But in any case, aren't nightclubs a barometer of what society values? This is why the door policies charge men to enter or demands that they produce women, because society values money, power, and status in a man (as defined by the money or women they can flaunt). That is why door policies can sometimes be racist, it reflects the thinly-veiled racism in our society.

http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/sizing_up_the_nightlife/

This famous article covers a lot of the points I mentioned.
 
Arkangeloid said:
Yeah, the overweight women are routinely turned away at the door. But that goes with what I said: societies value youth/beauty/fertility in women, as do nightclubs.

But in any case, aren't nightclubs a barometer of what society values? This is why the door policies charge men to enter or demands that they produce women, because society values money, power, and status in a man (as defined by the money or women they can flaunt). That is why door policies can sometimes be racist, it reflects the thinly-veiled racism in our society.

http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/sizing_up_the_nightlife/

This famous article covers a lot of the points I mentioned.
Click to expand...

Obviously there are complex games of social status played at nightclubs. But that article makes no attempt to extrapolate those door policies into the rest of the world. Social status plays into every exchange we have, but the values and economics of social transactions in your work or personal life are vastly different than the ones demonstrated at nightclubs. You can't take one set of social rules and equally apply them everywhere.
 
Arkangeloid said:
Yeah, the overweight women are routinely turned away at the door. But that goes with what I said: societies value youth/beauty/fertility in women, as do nightclubs.

But in any case, aren't nightclubs a barometer of what society values? This is why the door policies charge men to enter or demands that they produce women, because society values money, power, and status in a man (as defined by the money or women they can flaunt). That is why door policies can sometimes be racist, it reflects the thinly-veiled racism in our society.

http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/sizing_up_the_nightlife/

This famous article covers a lot of the points I mentioned.
Click to expand...

nightclubs are like New York City and Los Angeles, many (but not all) people there think the world revolves around them when the rest of society could care less.
 
Of course we value beauty; all societies do (although they may differ in what is desirable), even animals do. Humans value other things as well; on a personal note, I receive much more attention from men now than I did when I was younger, so it's not always about youth (at least for some; I'm sure some are not interested because I'm not 22, but those aren't the men for me anyway).

But clubs value it to the exclusion of everything else which is why they don't represent society at large. Clubs charge men to enter because they can and because they want fewer men than women inside; women generally won't go to clubs that charge them a cover charge but men will because they have different goals (to be where the women are). The fact that the clubs turn away young obese or unattractive women but allow older (whatever that is) beautiful women in (albeit with a cover charge) tells us that they value beauty most. They also value fame because it brings them $$$. Ask any nightclub owner who he wants in his club and it's the rich and beautiful because that draws publicity.

At any rate, the city you live in and it's clubs are well known for their superficialities and do not represent the US at large.
 
southernIM said:
Obviously there are complex games of social status played at nightclubs. But that article makes no attempt to extrapolate those door policies into the rest of the world. Social status plays into every exchange we have, but the values and economics of social transactions in your work or personal life are vastly different than the ones demonstrated at nightclubs. You can't take one set of social rules and equally apply them everywhere.
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You know what, you're right, and my bad for not realizing it sooner. Let's assume a 10-years-into-the-future Arkangeloid that is an attending. I would have high status at a hospital, but low status at a nightclub. Whereas a young RN would have high status at a nightclub, but low status in the hospital.
 
Winged Scapula said:
Gotcha - although I think my response is still valid especially in light of arks comment that women's power only comes from their looks. Most mature men want more than that (and it is possible to have both),
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As much as it pains me to agree with Ark, he's right. Men don't really care about how much a woman makes, or will make in salary. Women are instantly evaluated on their looks. And looks do carry a lot of power, when it comes to doing things they want. For men, looks are great, but men usually are not evaluated on their looks when it comes to power.
 
Arkangeloid said:
You know what, you're right, and my bad for not realizing it sooner. Let's assume a 10-years-into-the-future Arkangeloid that is an attending. I would have high status at a hospital, but low status at a nightclub. Whereas a young RN would have high status at a nightclub, but low status in the hospital.
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Hardly. Your nursing administrator suit will have more power than you as an attending.
 
Arkangeloid said:
You know what, you're right, and my bad for not realizing it sooner. Let's assume a 10-years-into-the-future Arkangeloid that is an attending. I would have high status at a hospital, but low status at a nightclub. Whereas a young RN would have high status at a nightclub, but low status in the hospital.
Click to expand...

That's rather...concrete...but getting closer
 
DermViser said:
Hardly. Your nursing administrator suit will have more power than you as an attending.
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I said "young RN," not an old lady.

Although many nurses I see tend to be fairly "well fed" for some reason.
 
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Mskincer said:
nightclubs are like New York City and Los Angeles, many (but not all) people there think the world revolves around them when the rest of society could care less.
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Yea but I mean it kinda does... And why would I care about the rest of the society thinks? It's not like they live in New York.
 
DermViser said:
Remember this when you're on MS-3 rotations to not use your gender as a way to garner better evaluations. Hopefully, there won't be a hypocritical change of heart then. As much as women feel they should be treated equally to men (nothing wrong with that), they seem to have a sudden change of heart, when they can use their gender to gain advantage.
Click to expand...

just quoting this post so it can be repeated again
 
DermViser said:
As much as it pains me to agree with Ark, he's right. Men don't really care about how much a woman makes, or will make in salary. Women are instantly evaluated on their looks. And looks do carry a lot of power, when it comes to doing things they want. For men, looks are great, but men usually are not evaluated on their looks when it comes to power.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with you, as a matter of fact, I've argued much the same on these forums before when medical students and physicians argue that they will be more attractive to men with their medical degree.

My response to Ark was that he was seeing it too literally; that beauty TO THE EXCEPTION OF OTHER ATTRIBUTES always wins. It doesn't in the long term because men realize they can have beauty and intelligence in the same woman and that beauty alone is not as powerful. Arks comment also noted that as soon as a woman loses her youthful beauty she has no power at all, which is what I was objecting to <maybe I'm taking it personally, IDK>.

A man doesn't have to have physical beauty to be powerful but a woman who has it and other attributes is the most prized.
 
touchpause13 said:
ITT:

Dudes talk about how feminists overeact about sexism, then say that women's power comes from their looks/fertility
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And both are true to some extent. Much as we would wish it otherwise, we cannot contest biology.
 
touchpause13 said:
ITT:

Dudes talk about how feminists overeact about sexism, then say that women's power comes from their looks/fertility
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huh? Your power comes from being a person, just like mine does.
 
touchpause13 said:
ITT:

Dudes talk about how feminists overeact about sexism, then say that women's power comes from their looks/fertility
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What we're saying is:

If we comment about your looks, take it as a compliment and move on.
 
fancymylotus said:
Hey now, I'm an NYC girl. Whatchu trying to say?! ><

😀
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was wondering when you would respond, you should have chuckled when I said "(but not all)"

like any place in the US or the world there are always nice people despite these two cities having a notion of the douchiest bars in America.

I currently live in Los Angeles and I like it a lot but for different reasons (outdoor activities, sports, restaurants, strong South Asian community, warm weather, free movie screenings well in advance) whereas many people like LA because of nightclubs, shopping, celebrity stalking 😱

Maybe not the best comparison but a health care practitioner working in NYC is like WW1 trench warfare, to gain a lot of territory (fun) you gotta to lose a lot of soldiers (money) over a small area
 
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PL198 said:
Completely agree with you, but that doesn't mean that if it does happen,that you should respond negatively.
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If it's someone I don't know I typically ignore, or say I'm not interested. if they are really gross about it I give them the finger.

If I know you and you are just being nice (aka not trying to get with me) I say thanks or smile.
 
touchpause13 said:
It's not always appropriate to comment on someone's looks. I don't care about your boner.
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I agree it's not always appropriate. However, it's a fact of life. Men go after women they consider pretty/beautiful. Is it everything? Not for a long-term relationship, bc you have to build on that with something else, but for women to think that their looks shouldn't matter is quite naive.
 
Winged Scapula said:
I don't disagree with you, as a matter of fact, I've argued much the same on these forums before when medical students and physicians argue that they will be more attractive to men with their medical degree.

My response to Ark was that he was seeing it too literally; that beauty TO THE EXCEPTION OF OTHER ATTRIBUTES always wins. It doesn't in the long term because men realize they can have beauty and intelligence in the same woman and that beauty alone is not as powerful. Arks comment also noted that as soon as a woman loses her youthful beauty she has no power at all, which is what I was objecting to <maybe I'm taking it personally, IDK>.

A man doesn't have to have physical beauty to be powerful but a woman who has it and other attributes is the most prized.
Click to expand...

I may be a bit biased, because of my education (which you know about), in which we covered early modern attitudes towards the aging of men and women as represented in contemporary art. My professor (a fairly attractive older woman) noted that many of those attitudes (about where the "worth" of women and men come from) are sadly still present today. Also, she informed us that the term "cougar" was offensive, because it projected animalistic characteristics on the woman.

In any case, I think we can agree that present WS and Future Ark have considerable power in the hospital, but outside it, people may be less awed by us.


Also, a woman with both beauty and brains is vanishingly rare. Especially in today's world, with it's burgeoning obesity rates.
 
touchpause13 said:
If it's someone I don't know I typically ignore, or say I'm not interested. if they are really gross about it I give them the finger.

If I know you and you are just being nice (aka not trying to get with me) I say thanks or smile.
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Why does it matter if you don't know them? If you don't know them - you should just say thank you and move on.
 
Arkangeloid said:
I may be a bit biased, because of my education (which you know about), in which we covered early modern attitudes towards the aging of men and women as represented in contemporary art. My professor (a fairly attractive older woman) noted that many of those attitudes (about where the "worth" of women and men come from) are sadly still present today. Also, she informed us that the term "cougar" was offensive, because it projected animalistic characteristics on the woman.

In any case, I think we can agree that present WS and Future Ark have considerable power in the hospital, but outside it, people may be less awed by us.
Also, a woman with both beauty and brains is vanishingly rare. Especially in today's world, with it's burgeoning obesity rates.
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You can blame the "fat shaming" moniker for that. Now women are proud to be fat. :barf:
 
Mskincer said:
was wondering when you would respond, you should have chuckled when I said "(but not all)"

like any place in the US or the world there are always nice people despite these two cities having a notion of the douchiest bars in America.

I currently live in Los Angeles and I like it a lot but for different reasons (outdoor activities, sports, restaurants, strong South Asian community, warm weather, free movie screenings well in advance) whereas many people like LA because of nightclubs, shopping, celebrity stalking 😱

Maybe not the best mnemonic but a health care practitioner working in NYC is like WW1 trench warfare, to gain a lot of territory (fun) you gotta to lose a lot of soldiers (money) over a small area
Click to expand...


Bah! I hate your coast. Sorry. Every time I go to CA all I can think is "get me back to NYC as fast as possible"...also I didn't realize you were a fellow brownie. Hurray!


(Vegas clubs are way douchier than NYC or CA ones I think)
 
touchpause13 said:
It's not always appropriate to comment on someone's looks. I don't care about your boner.
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No, you're right, it's certainly not appropriate. Some men though don't have the capacity to maturely speak to attractive women, and I guess you just have to ignore them or take it as a compliment.
 
DermViser said:
Why does it matter if you don't know them? If you don't know them - you should just say thank you and move on.
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Because it's messed up for someone you don't know to come up to you and talk to you in a sexual manner. It's scary and uncomfortable.
 
Arkangeloid said:
I may be a bit biased, because of my education (which you know about), in which we covered early modern attitudes towards the aging of men and women as represented in contemporary art. My professor (a fairly attractive older woman) noted that many of those attitudes (about where the "worth" of women and men come from) are sadly still present today. Also, she informed us that the term "cougar" was offensive, because it projected animalistic characteristics on the woman.

In any case, I think we can agree that present WS and Future Ark have considerable power in the hospital, but outside it, people may be less awed by us.


Also, a woman with both beauty and brains is vanishingly rare. Especially in today's world, with it's burgeoning obesity rates.
Click to expand...

humans are animals. so not sure what your prof was trying to say, unless we're some magical organism.

I don't think so about beauty and brains. everyone has different standards but there's a significant amount of attractive women in my class. definitely higher % than undergrad. if they can get into medical school, they're smart enough for me for sure.
 
fancymylotus said:
Bah! I hate your coast. Sorry. Every time I go to CA all I can think is "get me back to NYC as fast as possible"...also I didn't realize you were a fellow brownie. Hurray!


(Vegas clubs are way douchier than NYC or CA ones I think)
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cant speak for clubs as I stay away from those as far as possible, though I have heard Miami clubs are also douchey

Every time I go to the tri-cities area I say the same thing when I want to go back to west coast, I am more of a southwest type of guy. Maybe I might be the first redneck South Asian cowboy. Like I said before visit San Diego or Monterey Bay, you'll enjoy it and if you feel homesick, there are a lot of Indians working at Qualcomm haha.
 
PL198 said:
humans are animals. so not sure what your prof was trying to say, unless we're some magical organism.

I don't think so about beauty and brains. everyone has different standards but there's a significant amount of attractive women in my class. definitely higher % than undergrad. if they can get into medical school, they're smart enough for me for sure.
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I think she was just pissy about guys calling her "cougar" or "MILF".
 
Arkangeloid said:
I may be a bit biased, because of my education (which you know about), in which we covered early modern attitudes towards the aging of men and women as represented in contemporary art. My professor (a fairly attractive older woman) noted that many of those attitudes (about where the "worth" of women and men come from) are sadly still present today. Also, she informed us that the term "cougar" was offensive, because it projected animalistic characteristics on the woman.

In any case, I think we can agree that present WS and Future Ark have considerable power in the hospital, but outside it, people may be less awed by us.


Also, a woman with both beauty and brains is vanishingly rare. Especially in today's world, with it's burgeoning obesity rates.
Click to expand...
I think relatively soon our perception of beauty is going to change again, as a result of the exponentially increasing amounts of obese people, both men and women. And I fear that day is not too far away.
 
RJGOP said:
I think relatively soon our perception of beauty is going to change again, as a result of the exponentially increasing amounts of obese people, both men and women. And I fear that day is too far away.
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Nah. Attractive women will be held at even more of a premium than they are now
 
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