How many places to interview?

[Interviewtime]

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Hey all, money is tight, how many places should I interview?

DO student
MS Chemistry
Couple of case studies submitted but not published
Top 10% class
Usmle step 1 - 240
A's in clerkships

Interview options:

VCU, UVA, Carillion in Roanoke, UAB, UF, UT in Memphis and UT-chattanooga, MCG in Augusta, USC in Columbia, UNC, Mercer in savannah, MUSC, Carolina's in Charlotte, Greensboro NC, and Wilmington, NC.


No love from Vandy, Emory, Wake Forest, Duke, JH-bayview ;(

 

[jdh71]

can we combine these: where should I interview threads?

 

[Bill Swa]

Hey all, money is tight, how many places should I interview?

DO student
MS Chemistry
Couple of case studies submitted but not published
Top 10% class
Usmle step 1 - 240
A's in clerkships

Interview options:

VCU, UVA, Carillion in Roanoke, UAB, UF, UT in Memphis and UT-chattanooga, MCG in Augusta, USC in Columbia, UNC, Mercer in savannah, MUSC, Carolina's in Charlotte, Greensboro NC, and Wilmington, NC.


No love from Vandy, Emory, Wake Forest, Duke, JH-bayview ;(

Our school told us that students who typically interviewed and ranked 10-12 programs, had match rates of 97%.

That's my school though. Allopathic, not Harvard.

 

[Retro Virus]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

IM statistics are on pgs 100-103. In 2011 the mean # of ranked programs for a matched vs unmatched US senior applying to IM was 9.6 vs 8.2; that said, a US senior ranking one program had a match rate of ~90%, which increased to ~95% with 7-8 ranked programs.

 

[Epo83]

Yah and for Independent graduates like myself (USIMG) its around 17 for 95% ....sigh 5 more to go I guess.

 

[Interviewtime]

Thanks for the replies. Does the NRMP info listed above include DO applicants in the US senior category?

There is really no way to judge how I am perceived by programs I've interviewed so far (they all say the same thing---we would love to have you at our program---I'm sure they tell everyone this) so I'm trying to be more objective. I got rejected by many mid tier programs and have not heard from some low-tier programs (one low tier rejection).

 

[laconfidential]

DO's are lumped in with all "independent" applicants in the NRMP data, which makes it hard to know exactly how many to interview at. The data is skewed by IMGs who have a lower match percentage than DOs.

I'm aiming for somewhere in the 12-15 range, myself.

 

[Interviewtime]

DO's are lumped in with all "independent" applicants in the NRMP data, which makes it hard to know exactly how many to interview at. The data is skewed by IMGs who have a lower match percentage than DOs.

I'm aiming for somewhere in the 12-15 range, myself.

I thought DO's were grouped into independent but wasn't for sure. 12-15 seems to be a good number. I have had 3 and can probably afford one more flight and a 4-5 road trips.


I had planned to geographically group the interviews better but I tried waiting for a couple and waited too late for 2 programs and the slots filled.




Anybody have thoughts on this specific programs I have listed?

 

[HoldTheCoffee]

I'm probably being captain obvious, but my guess is that the people who only rank 1 and match are probably doing so at their home program or have something worked out at another place beforehand (like connections, etc.), ie they know what they are doing. I'm pretty sure if I just ranked my top 1 (and it wasn't my home program whom I've conferred with beforehand), my likelihood of matching would probably be a good deal less than 90%.

 

[Raryn]

I'm probably being captain obvious, but my guess is that the people who only rank 1 and match are probably doing so at their home program or have something worked out at another place beforehand (like connections, etc.), ie they know what they are doing. I'm pretty sure if I just ranked my top 1 (and it wasn't my home program whom I've conferred with beforehand), my likelihood of matching would probably be a good deal less than 90%.

It's a pity we don't have it broken out by specialty, but table 15 in the results and data document has who matched at what rank on their list overall http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf . On the order of 55% of US seniors get their first choice overall (no matter how many they ranked), and I'm willing to bet it's probably higher for Medicine (being that our programs are much larger and the specialty is less competitive).

 

[Denjang]

The conventional wisdom seems to be that AMGs should be ranking 8-10 programs, thus going on 8-10 interviews at places we think we'd like to match.

The NRMP matching outcomes 2011 data show the peak match success rate of ~98% at 10 ranks for AMGs which reinforces, or perhaps drives, conventional wisdom. But at 5 contiguous ranks the success rate is a little less than 95%. Is this really a big difference?

Question: If one happens to be geographically limited, for instance to the NYC area, should the applicant be worried if he/she has only been invited to half as many interviews? Reworded - should we still be looking to interview at 8-10 programs, or is there a modified goal for geographically limited applicants?

I tried to ask my question in broader terms so that the information could be more generalizable to the SDN community. But if goals for #IVs really depends on individual stats and the specific location, I'll hop over to my WATC thread and ask there. Thanks!

 

[gutonc]

The conventional wisdom seems to be that AMGs should be ranking 8-10 programs, thus going on 8-10 interviews at places we think we'd like to match.

The NRMP matching outcomes 2011 data show the peak match success rate of ~98% at 10 ranks for AMGs which reinforces, or perhaps drives, conventional wisdom. But at 5 contiguous ranks the success rate is a little less than 95%. Is this really a big difference?

It's a huge difference if you're in that extra 3-4% that get the sad panda email on Monday of Match week. That's the thing about statistics like this. For populations, the Match rate is a continuous variable. For you (or any individual applicant) it's a discrete, binary variable.

Question: If one happens to be geographically limited, for instance to the NYC area, should the applicant be worried if he/she has only been invited to half as many interviews? Reworded - should we still be looking to interview at 8-10 programs, or is there a modified goal for geographically limited applicants?

Your modified goal should be to get rid of your geographic limitations. Or at least expand the borders of them. This board is full of the sob stories of (especially borderline) applicants who limited themselves to a single geographic region and then didn't match. Don't be that guy. IMHO, you're better off matching somewhere that you have a commute or have to temporarily relocate or separate from family than you are not matching.

And before you ask, yes, I have family and yes, we considered this in both of my trips through the Match.

 

[kjamess]

So what about applicants who are interviewing at several top programs? Should our interview/rank list expand from the usual 8 or so to more (I guess 12+)? Given the competition at these big-name places, it doesnt seem unreasonable to possibly drop way down to the bottom of your list. I know its unlikely but there are no do-overs when it comes to this process.

 

[duckie99]

So what about applicants who are interviewing at several top programs? Should our interview/rank list expand from the usual 8 or so to more (I guess 12+)? Given the competition at these big-name places, it doesnt seem unreasonable to possibly drop way down to the bottom of your list. I know its unlikely but there are no do-overs when it comes to this process.

I agree with your thought process. If you are interviewing and ranking many programs which are considered very competitive and top ranked and also not your home program, you should interview at more than 8. However if you have decent stats, interview reasonably well, and are ranking places where you should be ranked highly and they think you actually want to go there (i.e. safeties that do not think they are just your safety) you should not really need more than 8. Granted statistics are statistics but looking at them there is not even 0.5% difference with the probability of matching between 8 and 10 ranks... I think the average number of ranks with AMGs being above 9 is really related to the neurotic nature of medical students. IM is still generally very easy to match for reasons already discussed.

 

[gutonc]

So what about applicants who are interviewing at several top programs? Should our interview/rank list expand from the usual 8 or so to more (I guess 12+)? Given the competition at these big-name places, it doesnt seem unreasonable to possibly drop way down to the bottom of your list. I know its unlikely but there are no do-overs when it comes to this process.

I don't really think so, simply because of the way the Match algorithm is structured. While it's true that the same Top X applicants will be interviewing at the same Top Y programs, program they can't all match to the same place. So as long as you're a truly strong applicant for these top-tier programs, you should be in the same place as a mid-tier applicant applying to the same # of mid-tier programs.

All that having been said however...if you fail to Match, that $1000 you saved on not going on an interview or two is going to be the worst investment you will ever make.

 

[beavis84]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

IM statistics are on pgs 100-103. In 2011 the mean # of ranked programs for a matched vs unmatched US senior applying to IM was 9.6 vs 8.2; that said, a US senior ranking one program had a match rate of ~90%, which increased to ~95% with 7-8 ranked programs.

As a US-IMG from Europe I find the statistics on page 102 in one aspect surprising.
Looks like at 13-15 ranks the match percentage is 90%, but for 16 and more it goes down to 67%. I wonder why?
Are there mainly IMGs, who go on more than 16 IVs, and the stats at 12-15IV are mixed with the DOs (who have better chances).
For matching I'm contemplating going on as many interviews as possible to be on the safe side this season.

 

[Retro Virus]

As a US-IMG from Europe I find the statistics on page 102 in one aspect surprising.
Looks like at 13-15 ranks the match percentage is 90%, but for 16 and more it goes down to 67%. I wonder why?
Are there mainly IMGs, who go on more than 16 IVs, and the stats at 12-15IV are mixed with the DOs (who have better chances).
For matching I'm contemplating going on as many interviews as possible to be on the safe side this season.

The same is true of US seniors ranking >16 programs. I suspect that most people going on 16+ interviews are doing so because they realize they are a noncompetitive applicant for one reason or another, and their eventual match rate bears that out - if 14 of 15 programs that interviewed you didn't want to rank you, adding a 16th is likely of marginal benefit.

 

[Denjang]

It's a huge difference if you're in that extra 3-4% that get the sad panda email on Monday of Match week. That's the thing about statistics like this. For populations, the Match rate is a continuous variable. For you (or any individual applicant) it's a discrete, binary variable.



Your modified goal should be to get rid of your geographic limitations. Or at least expand the borders of them. This board is full of the sob stories of (especially borderline) applicants who limited themselves to a single geographic region and then didn't match. Don't be that guy. IMHO, you're better off matching somewhere that you have a commute or have to temporarily relocate or separate from family than you are not matching.

Thanks for the feedback gutonc. I appreciate your insight into the matter.

I'm going to broaden out my apps and carpetbomb the midwest (where I'm from). But, I'm still not going to give up hope that the university affiliated / community programs in NYC will start showing me some love. Why would mid tier-ed academic institutions offer me interviews but community programs not?

With my 'super hindsight' glasses on now, I realize I was being arrogant when I didn't apply to some NYC programs because they were coined "IMG factories." Hate the taste of humble pie. When it comes right down to it, I'd much rather be the only AMG at a residency program than a sadpanda doing bench research for a year. Please, please no more micro-pipetting. my panda paws do not have the dexterity.

 

[ArkansasHogMD]

I got 16 offers and I'm going on 13 interviews. I am ranking every freaking place I interview at. I am not taking any chances. I don't understand why people don't maximize their chances by ranking every program they interview at. While it may cost more money to interview at more places it doesn't hurt to rank more. Is it really worse to go to a program you hate than not to match?

 

[swlabr1980]

Is it really worse to go to a program you hate than not to match?

Agreed. I'd rather match at a crappy program than scramble into an even crappier program.