How many residency programs should I apply to?

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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ibarne242

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Trying to balance not breaking the bank and making sure someone takes me.
This isn't a boasting post. I'm literally just trying to figure out what a good number of programs really is. I read the "point of diminishing returns" is like 17 programs but idk. Right now I have like 70 saved. I'm DEFINITELY not applying to 70 btw. But since I'm applying in competitive metro areas only, I'm not sure.
I'm applying only in east coast metro areas (Philly, NYC, Boston) and Chicago metro area.
I'm applying to family medicine programs exclusively
I have no application red flags. My steps were 233 and 249. COMLEX was 661 and 636 (I know I went down)
My grades were fine in med school. A's and B's.
I volunteered a good amount and continue to. I have decent letters I think. Choral singing is my one unique thing
I have no research experience after college and no publications.
So am I good applying to like 25-30 programs or should I apply to more like 50-60?
Thanks!
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ibarne242 said:
Trying to balance not breaking the bank and making sure someone takes me.
This isn't a boasting post. I'm literally just trying to figure out what a good number of programs really is. I read the "point of diminishing returns" is like 17 programs but idk. Right now I have like 70 saved. I'm DEFINITELY not applying to 70 btw. But since I'm applying in competitive metro areas only, I'm not sure.
I'm applying only in east coast metro areas (Philly, NYC, Boston) and Chicago metro area.
I'm applying to family medicine programs exclusively
I have no application red flags. My steps were 233 and 249. COMLEX was 661 and 636 (I know I went down)
My grades were fine in med school. A's and B's.
I volunteered a good amount and continue to. I have decent letters I think. Choral singing is my one unique thing
I have no research experience after college and no publications.
So am I good applying to like 25-30 programs or should I apply to more like 50-60?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
match rate for 30 was 80%. match rate for 40 was 85%. Make your decision in terms of how risk averse you are.
 
libertyyne said:
match rate for 30 was 80%. match rate for 40 was 85%. Make your decision in terms of how risk averse you are.
Click to expand...

For FM? Or those specific cities? That seems like a low match rate for stats like that in FM.
 
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Sardonix said:
For FM? Or those specific cities? That seems like a low match rate for stats like that in FM.
Click to expand...
1567443904546.png

This is based on the number of applications submitted. It only includes DO applicants who had a step 1 score and likely were applying to traditionally ACGME programs.
Here is the MD one in relation
1567444180110.png
 
libertyyne said:
View attachment 278494
This is based on the number of applications submitted. It only includes DO applicants who had a step 1 score and likely were applying to traditionally ACGME programs.
Here is the MD one in relation
View attachment 278495
Click to expand...

This is really interesting. any idea why you see that dip for the 200-216 scores after around 32 applications? Personally, I'm really risk averse, especially with this topic. So I always planned to apply to a whole lot of programs. But this makes me feel like I should second guess myself with that. I guess I was always under the assumption that more apps = more chances at interviews = higher rank list = better odds of matching. Assuming one applies strategically.
 
Espressso said:
This is really interesting. any idea why you see that dip for the 200-216 scores after around 32 applications? Personally, I'm really risk averse, especially with this topic. So I always planned to apply to a whole lot of programs. But this makes me feel like I should second guess myself with that. I guess I was always under the assumption that more apps = more chances at interviews = higher rank list = better odds of matching. Assuming one applies strategically.
Click to expand...
Who knows what the dip is related to. Maybe redflags like class failures tend to apply to more programs, or it may be that these people are not researching the programs they are applying to and their lists are inappropriate. Or dont end up interviewing at enough places?
 
Basically what I'm getting is I should probably exceed 40 but not exceed 50. Thanks
 
ibarne242 said:
Trying to balance not breaking the bank and making sure someone takes me.
This isn't a boasting post. I'm literally just trying to figure out what a good number of programs really is. I read the "point of diminishing returns" is like 17 programs but idk. Right now I have like 70 saved. I'm DEFINITELY not applying to 70 btw. But since I'm applying in competitive metro areas only, I'm not sure.
I'm applying only in east coast metro areas (Philly, NYC, Boston) and Chicago metro area.
I'm applying to family medicine programs exclusively
I have no application red flags. My steps were 233 and 249. COMLEX was 661 and 636 (I know I went down)
My grades were fine in med school. A's and B's.
I volunteered a good amount and continue to. I have decent letters I think. Choral singing is my one unique thing
I have no research experience after college and no publications.
So am I good applying to like 25-30 programs or should I apply to more like 50-60?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
You are probably okay with 30. I definitely would not go beyond 50.
 
Ahhh, yeah I'd seen that tool before. Never paid attention to the matching so much as the diminishing return numbers.
 
Just as a nitpick, that chart does not reflect match rate, it reflects the percentage of applicants who matriculated into family medicine. Therefore it includes all the people who applied to FM as a backup for something else, which explains the huge disparity between this chart (where DOs with above a 217 had barely an 80% matriculation rate) and the Charting Outcomes (where those same candidates had around a 95% match rate).
 
EmergDO said:
Just as a nitpick, that chart does not reflect match rate, it reflects the percentage of applicants who matriculated into family medicine. Therefore it includes all the people who applied to FM as a backup for something else, which explains the huge disparity between this chart (where DOs with above a 217 had barely an 80% matriculation rate) and the Charting Outcomes (where those same candidates had around a 95% match rate).
Click to expand...
Yes , but the charting outcomes does not indicate the number of programs the applicant applied to. It is still possible that there is a robust correlation between 217+ and higher applications. Although your point is still valid.
 
I ultimately decided on 60. The reasoning for me isn't so much that I feel I need that many, but rather that I couldn't bring myself to delete any more programs off my list. I deleted some fillers and I'm basically only left with programs I can truly envision myself at. Thanks all.
 
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DennisReynolds said:
It's around $3K.

At this point, the extra $1000 is worth the peace of mind to me rather than having to go through SOAP.

Saw some of my upperclassmen have to go through that hell.

F*************K dat fam.

Apps won't catch me slippin'.
Click to expand...
Yes! What do I win? Also I think it's a good idea. At the end of the day it's just another drop in a deep deep bucket. Do what makes you comfortable.
 
DennisReynolds said:
It's around $3K.

At this point, the extra $1000 is worth the peace of mind to me rather than having to go through SOAP.

Saw some of my upperclassmen have to go through that hell.

F*************K dat fam.

Apps won't catch me slippin'.
Click to expand...
Does FM offer 2-for-1 deals? Cause I was around 3,300 with 134 programs.
 
Giovanotto said:
Does FM offer 2-for-1 deals? Cause I was around 3,300 with 134 programs.
Click to expand...

The pricing is scaled per specialty you apply to. You get the first 10 for much cheaper than 10-20, then 20+, etc, and it goes up in increments.

With that being said, I'm a big believer in overapplying. The few people I know that did not match applied to way too little programs. They also had poor stats/failures, but would have applying to more programs helped? How would you feel about that. Essentially ending your career to save 500-1000$ right now. On the other end of the spectrum, if you're competitive, add a few more reaches out because you might be surprised at what places/locations you actually get.
 
EmergDO said:
Just as a nitpick, that chart does not reflect match rate, it reflects the percentage of applicants who matriculated into family medicine. Therefore it includes all the people who applied to FM as a backup for something else, which explains the huge disparity between this chart (where DOs with above a 217 had barely an 80% matriculation rate) and the Charting Outcomes (where those same candidates had around a 95% match rate).
Click to expand...
Ok cool, I was starting to freakout looking at this graph
 
DennisReynolds said:
It's around $3K.

At this point, the extra $1000 is worth the peace of mind to me rather than having to go through SOAP.

Saw some of my upperclassmen have to go through that hell.

F*************K dat fam.

Apps won't catch me slippin'.
Click to expand...

This person is smart.

I think the advice of only applying to a 30-50 programs is the literal worst advice. ever. Like no matter how good of an applicant you are, people fall through the cracks every year. Could some of these cases be prevented by applying to more places? I say yes. Peace of mind is worth the extra 1-2k which is a drop in the bucket at this point.

This is my soap box I will stand on lol.

But I am also applying to literally every program in my specialty (~170) because I am that risk adverse so yolo.
 
DNC127 said:
This person is smart.

I think the advice of only applying to a 30-50 programs is the literal worst advice. ever. Like no matter how good of an applicant you are, people fall through the cracks every year. Could some of these cases be prevented by applying to more places? I say yes. Peace of mind is worth the extra 1-2k which is a drop in the bucket at this point.

This is my soap box I will stand on lol.

But I am also applying to literally every program in my specialty (~170) because I am that risk adverse so yolo.
Click to expand...
Have you thought about the extra cost associated with more interviews? I'm confused what your final game plan is here. I can't imagine interviewing at more than 15 programs.
 
Giovanotto said:
Have you thought about the extra cost associated with more interviews? I'm confused what your final game plan is here. I can't imagine interviewing at more than 15 programs.
Click to expand...

I feel like you don't have to go do all the interviews though. I think the really high # of applications sent out is to make sure you get 15+ interview invites, then decide on which 15 to go to.
 
Giovanotto said:
Have you thought about the extra cost associated with more interviews? I'm confused what your final game plan is here. I can't imagine interviewing at more than 15 programs.
Click to expand...

If a DO gets over 15 interview invites on the MD side for surgical subs I would be surprised. I doubt I have this issue but will feel blessed if I do and go on as many as possible. amazing applicants I know got 1-2 interviews for every 30 apps.
 
DNC127 said:
If a DO gets over 15 interview invites on the MD side for surgical subs I would be surprised. I doubt I have this issue but will feel blessed if I do and go on as many as possible. amazing applicants I know got 1-2 interviews for every 30 apps.
Click to expand...

What specialty are you applying to if you don't mind me asking
 
ibarne242 said:
Basically what I'm getting is I should probably exceed 40 but not exceed 50. Thanks
Click to expand...

That should guarantee that you get sufficient interviews. Just make sure that you include some lower competitiveness places on your interview list. To give you an idea, in the region where my school was, I had a >90% interview/application ratio, whereas in the West coast (literally nowhere near my school on the other side of the country) it was more like 30-35%. Worst case scenario with 50 apps, you should have 15 interviews.

ibarne242 said:
I ultimately decided on 60. The reasoning for me isn't so much that I feel I need that many, but rather that I couldn't bring myself to delete any more programs off my list. I deleted some fillers and I'm basically only left with programs I can truly envision myself at. Thanks all.
Click to expand...

You'll be fine and have plenty of options for interviews. Like I said though, make sure you actually attend interviews of some lower competitiveness programs.
 
DNC127 said:
This person is smart.

I think the advice of only applying to a 30-50 programs is the literal worst advice. ever. Like no matter how good of an applicant you are, people fall through the cracks every year. Could some of these cases be prevented by applying to more places? I say yes. Peace of mind is worth the extra 1-2k which is a drop in the bucket at this point.
This is my soap box I will stand on lol.
But I am also applying to literally every program in my specialty (~170) because I am that risk adverse so yolo.
Click to expand...

DNC127 said:
ortho
Click to expand...

Meanwhile, for the average applicant who is not doing a highly competitive specialty, applying to 30-50 programs is completely reasonable advice.
 
Sardonix said:
Meanwhile, for the average applicant who is not doing a highly competitive specialty, applying to 30-50 programs is completely reasonable advice.
Click to expand...
1567708564054.png

you need 8~ ranks to match at greather than 90%. With the average matched applicant having 8.5 ranks.
It depends on your interview yield. If your interview yield is 1/4 that means you need to apply to at least ~32-34 programs . This is family medicine.

I think it comes down to personal risk tolerance. I know i would apply to as many programs that i neeeded to get 9 interviews in the bag.
 
libertyyne said:
View attachment 278887
you need 8~ ranks to match at greather than 90%. With the average matched applicant having 8.5 ranks.
It depends on your interview yield. If your interview yield is 1/4 that means you need to apply to at least ~32-34 programs . This is family medicine.

I think it comes down to personal risk tolerance. I know i would apply to as many programs that i neeeded to get 9 interviews in the bag.
Click to expand...

This doesn't really add to anything I said though? I said 30-50 programs is reasonable advice for someone not gunning for ortho (or equally competitive specialty). Point being, there's being risk averse and then there's being unrealistic. When doing ortho, derm, ENT whatever it's understandable to shotgun every program because the game is the game. For FM/IM/Path/Peds/Psych/EM/Gas that's a waste of money and contributes to application bloat if you're an average applicant without major red flags.
 
Sardonix said:
Meanwhile, for the average applicant who is not doing a highly competitive specialty, applying to 30-50 programs is completely reasonable advice.
Click to expand...

I’m just saying even if I was applying FM I would still be 80-100 programs. I don’t wanna play games or guess how many to apply to. Why would you not double your presumed internecine yield for an extra 1k? This is your literal future you have spent building for over a decade. 1k is worth the good keep you will have at night
 
Sardonix said:
This doesn't really add to anything I said though? I said 30-50 programs is reasonable advice for someone not gunning for ortho (or equally competitive specialty). Point being, there's being risk averse and then there's being unrealistic. When doing ortho, derm, ENT whatever it's understandable to shotgun every program because the game is the game. For FM/IM/Path/Peds/Psych/EM/Gas that's a waste of money and contributes to application bloat if you're an average applicant without major red flags.
Click to expand...
I was literally agreeing with you, with the caveat that interview yield depends on the programs you apply to as well.
 
DNC127 said:
I’m just saying even if I was applying FM I would still be 80-100 programs. I don’t wanna play games or guess how many to apply to. Why would you not double your presumed internecine yield for an extra 1k? This is your literal future you have spent building for over a decade. 1k is worth the good keep you will have at night
Click to expand...

Yeah I get what you're saying, but depending on the applicant's context it's like using a sledgehammer for a nail. Average FM applicants at my school applying within my school's geographic zone (Midwest) have to turn down interviews after applying for 20-30 each year. 30-50 is warranted for those applying outside our school's reputation zone. But there's literally no point to applying for 50+ when you don't have red flags and aren't going for something highly competitive.

Cost < benefit.
 
I failed the PE and am applying to about 150 FM programs. I retook the PE last week, but won't get the results until probably late Nov. I didn't take Step1/2. COMLEX 1 and 2 were 450s.

I don't know what to do. Should I apply to 50% of the FM programs available? Should I wait to assign my COMLEX scores until I get my PE scores? I'm lost and my school is not providing me with any answers. 🙁
 
Cocobutteran said:
I failed the PE and am applying to about 150 FM programs. I retook the PE last week, but won't get the results until probably late Nov. I didn't take Step1/2. COMLEX 1 and 2 were 450s.

I don't know what to do. Should I apply to 50% of the FM programs available? Should I wait to assign my COMLEX scores until I get my PE scores? I'm lost and my school is not providing me with any answers. 🙁
Click to expand...
I don't have any evidence based advice. I would however think your best bet is places where you have connections and have done rotations where they can look beyond the red flag.
 
Cocobutteran said:
I failed the PE and am applying to about 150 FM programs. I retook the PE last week, but won't get the results until probably late Nov. I didn't take Step1/2. COMLEX 1 and 2 were 450s.

I don't know what to do. Should I apply to 50% of the FM programs available? Should I wait to assign my COMLEX scores until I get my PE scores? I'm lost and my school is not providing me with any answers. 🙁
Click to expand...
I think you have to roll with it now. You can't not assign cause a lot of places are requiring level 1 and 2 for interviews. Let it rip, I hope you pass your most recent attempt.

Also instead of applying everywhere I would look at places that specially say they allow a failure and apply there first.
 
DNC127 said:
I’m just saying even if I was applying FM I would still be 80-100 programs. I don’t wanna play games or guess how many to apply to. Why would you not double your presumed internecine yield for an extra 1k? This is your literal future you have spent building for over a decade. 1k is worth the good keep you will have at night
Click to expand...
What that is like retail therapy med school version. Applying to more places doesn't make you qualified to match more places. If you are worried about matches, go through your list 1 by 1 and see A. Do they have DO's, B. Do they require something you don't have (Step, letters etc), C. Are you in the ranges of scores they post on Frieda? Why would I apply to WashU when I know they don't take DO's in my specialty?

You don't magically become more competitive by applying to more places, at best you might stumble upon a place that's not competitive in a location you hadn't thought of. I think if people are worried about matching they should take the time to figure out were they have a chance.
 
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