How much do family doctors actually earn? Right after residency?

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msbbc833 said:
How in the world are you making 300k? Are you working 3000 hrs per year?
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I work 6 days a week, 12 hour shifts. Plus I did a stint in the ER for 4 months that was 70+/week that was high wage. I take a few days here and there but this year I am focused on getting my debt paid down. I took 6 months off and played too much last year and ended up in the minus so I am hoofing it this year to catch up, pay taxes, pay my debt, and have a savings.
 
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cabinbuilder said:
I work 6 days a week, 12 hour shifts. Plus I did a stint in the ER for 4 months that was 70+/week that was high wage. I take a few days here and there but this year I am focuses on getting my debt paid down. I took 6 months off and played too much last year and ended up in the minus so I am hoofing it this year to catch up, pay taxes, pay my debt, and have a savings.
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So, in short, you are working 3000 hrs.
Thats good to know that in FM you can earn as much as you want to if you put in the hours. Just want to know that my earnings will not be capped at 180k
Would you recommend locum FM to a grad who is debt free? (from TX)
 
msbbc833 said:
So, in short, you are working 3000 hrs.
Thats good to know that in FM you can earn as much as you want to if you put in the hours. Just want to know that my earnings will not be capped at 180k
Would you recommend locum FM to a grad who is debt free? (from TX)
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I guess it comes down to what you want. I can't stand dealing with administration nor do I want my own office nor do I want an office being employed by some entity. I like the freedom of locums and can work as much or as little as I need to. I can be off on vacation when I want and I don't have to ask permission or accrue time, etc. It's not for everyone but I for one would never go back to a regular job with 180K base.
 
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cabinbuilder said:
I work 6 days a week, 12 hour shifts. Plus I did a stint in the ER for 4 months that was 70+/week that was high wage. I take a few days here and there but this year I am focuses on getting my debt paid down. I took 6 months off and played too much last year and ended up in the minus so I am hoofing it this year to catch up, pay taxes, pay my debt, and have a savings.
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I have to say, this is one significant advantage of locums--being able to take off large blocks of time. That's pretty sweet, and something that you can't do in an employed position or if you own a practice.

Cabin,
I mentioned this on another thread but have you considered owning an urgent care center as an absentee owner? It would/could bring in substantial passive income if you buy the right one.
 
Silent Cool said:
I have to say, this is one significant advantage of locums--being able to take off large blocks of time. That's pretty sweet, and something that you can't do in an employed position or if you own a practice.

Cabin,
I mentioned this on another thread but have you considered owning an urgent care center as an absentee owner? It would/could bring in substantial passive income if you buy the right one.
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Not at this time. I just don't want to be involved with any entity right now. I see urgent care as an owner similar to a restaurant - you have to put in the time to be successful and you have to be trusting of the biller and staff, etc. I have been burned so many times that I don't really trust anybody. I just don't want the responsibility or the hassle. Maybe someday but right now I'm happy being the relief help, having the freedom to walk out at any time, and working on scheduling my next tropical vacation.
 
cabinbuilder said:
Not at this time. I just don't want to be involved with any entity right now. I see urgent care as an owner similar to a restaurant - you have to put in the time to be successful and you have to be trusting of the biller and staff, etc. I have been burned so many times that I don't really trust anybody. I just don't want the responsibility or the hassle. Maybe someday but right now I'm happy being the relief help, having the freedom to walk out at any time, and working on scheduling my next tropical vacation.
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Interesting.

So, do you think that owning an urgent care center is probably a wash then? I mean, is it not really worth the hassle for the income?
 
Silent Cool said:
Interesting.

So, do you think that owning an urgent care center is probably a wash then? I mean, is it not really worth the hassle for the income?
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That is not what I am saying. Just for me personally, I don't want to be tied to anything. I haven't figured out where I want to live yet. My daughter doesn't want to move again so I am stuck where I am living until she graduates. I don't know what is going to happen so for me I don't want to have any commitment to any entity at this time. I don't have any family obligations, I don't have parents, I don't have extended family anywhere so I'm just this gypsy soul who doesn't want roots and doesn't crave them either.
 
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cabinbuilder said:
That is not what I am saying. Just for me personally, I don't want to be tied to anything. I haven't figured out where I want to live yet. My daughter doesn't want to move again so I am stuck where I am living until she graduates. I don't know what is going to happen so for me I don't want to have any commitment to any entity at this time. I don't have any family obligations, I don't have parents, I don't have extended family anywhere so I'm just this gypsy soul who doesn't want roots and doesn't crave them either.
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Got it.

@cabinbuilder
What is your typical hourly rate? And is that generally as a 1099?

thanx
 
Silent Cool said:
Got it.

@cabinbuilder
What is your typical hourly rate? And is that generally as a 1099?

thanx
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Depending on the job it's $80-115/hr. Some jobs I take call. Some jobs I do hospitalist too. If the wage is on the low end then I insist on a minimum of 50 hr/week since I will not spend my time sitting in a hotel room not making money. I would rather work as many hours as possible to maximize my income potential while away from home. I try to average 5K/week or more. Yes, it's 1099. I am incorporated so my taxes are a lot lower.
 
cabinbuilder said:
Depending on the job it's $80-115/hr. Some jobs I take call. Some jobs I do hospitalist too. If the wage is on the low end then I insist on a minimum of 50 hr/week since I will not spend my time sitting in a hotel room not making money. I would rather work as many hours as possible to maximize my income potential while away from home. I try to average 5K/week or more. Yes, it's 1099. I am incorporated so my taxes are a lot lower.
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Gotcha, thanks for the #s. I appreciate your willing to share that because some people won't and that's.....irritating.

Do you pay quarterly taxes? I have heard that you can pay taxes once per year as a 1099 but there is a slight penalty.
Also, through whom do you have a 401K/retirement account? Do you do a SEP?

thanx
 
Silent Cool said:
Gotcha, thanks for the #s. I appreciate your willing to share that because some people won't and that's.....irritating.

Do you pay quarterly taxes? I have heard that you can pay taxes once per year as a 1099 but there is a slight penalty.
Also, through whom do you have a 401K/retirement account? Do you do a SEP?

thanx
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Yes, I pay once a year. I don't try to understand it, I have an accountant for that. I did not pay any penalty. I do my own IRA with my credit union.. I do not know what an SEP is.
 
cabinbuilder said:
Yes, I pay once a year. I don't try to understand it, I have an accountant for that. I did not pay any penalty. I do my own IRA with my credit union.. I do not know what an SEP is.
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You can actually set up your own solo 401k with 1099 income. That allows you to put away 17500 a year plus about 20% of your net income as employer match up to a total of $52000. You can do an IRA in addition to this. Based on your income level, though, you might have to do the backdoor roth. Read more at @The White Coat Investor (http://www.whitecoatinvestor.com) for lots of good info.
 
Silent Cool said:
Gotcha. How much do you still owe? 200K?
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All my debt put together about 400K. That doesn't include my son starting college this year, braces, my daughter got chosen for a European tour,etc. Seems like every other week I have yet another bill for 5K. Last year I took 6 months off and only made 120K, had 30K on my credit cards, had taxes to pay, etc. It all adds up. It's my own fault but I don't have the luxury of putting away 50K a year in retirement right now.
 
cabinbuilder said:
All my debt put together about 400K. That doesn't include my son starting college this year, braces, my daughter got chosen for a European tour,etc. Seems like every other week I have yet another bill for 5K. Last year I took 6 months off and only made 120K, had 30K on my credit cards, had taxes to pay, etc. It all adds up. It's my own fault but I don't have the luxury of putting away 50K a year in retirement right now.
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I'm hoping that includes a mortgage and is not just CC/student loans/car note
 
My friend straight out of residency made 250k as a hospitalist (FM). This past year (3rd year out) she made over 300k. She does not work 3000/yr, she works less than a FT 40hr/wk job. She works 7 - 11s then has 7 off. So she works Mon-Sun then has Mon-Sun off. She also gets vacation, and loves what she does. Just like CB says, it's what you want to do, where you want to be, etc...
 
Prncssbuttercup said:
My friend straight out of residency made 250k as a hospitalist (FM). This past year (3rd year out) she made over 300k. She does not work 3000/yr, she works less than a FT 40hr/wk job. She works 7 - 11s then has 7 off. So she works Mon-Sun then has Mon-Sun off. She also gets vacation, and loves what she does. Just like CB says, it's what you want to do, where you want to be, etc...
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Absolutely. I get messaged all the time about locums and how "they don't get it" as to why there is an advantage. I will say if you only want to work a 40 hour week and are ok with administration telling you how many patients you have to see or how many patients you have to have admitted a week and you are ok with 2-3 weeks off a year then locums is not for you. If you want to be home every night and every weekend then locums is not for you.

When I am on a job I work 65-80 hours a week for 3-4 months so I make as much money as I can in the time I am there. That is what I am there for. I structure my time off around the times my kids are off school and we go do trips or I just stay home with them. My goal this year is to pay off as much debt that I can, and for me that means putting in the hours and being away from home on the jobs that pay the most. It works for my family since my husband stays home and my kids are not bothered by me not being home.
 
I have a question that is slightly off topic from the discussion above, but didn't find it necessary to start a new thread over this: I'm most likely going to be around 250K (tops) in debt when this whole med school thing wraps up, and have a growing family (just 1 kid but thoughts of a 2nd are in the breeze). Is that enough to deter me from entering FM? All too often I hear about issues with compensation and hours and it kind of scares me away from the idea of being a PCP. It's really the only thing that does. That said, I kinda dig the interactions I have with my patients along the variety of pathologies that they present with. Maybe I'm being a bit too idealistic but I fancy the thought of being in the trenches, on the front line, so-to-speak.

My advice to another would be "don't fear steer the ship!" Struggling to take my own advice I guess.

Thoughts? Experiences? Thanks folks!
 
Atlasmd seems to love it, their shop income per doc is well advertised and they only see a few patients per day.... with no insurance to hassle with. If I go fm, i'm absolutely doing their model
 
Dharma said:
I'm most likely going to be around 250K (tops) in debt when this whole med school thing wraps up, and have a growing family (just 1 kid but thoughts of a 2nd are in the breeze). Is that enough to deter me from entering FM?
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We had our 1st kid just before the end of med school, our 2nd at the start of 2nd year, and our 3rd just after finishing residency. It is about priorities. For me, I'd rather be paid quite well doing FM while still having good hours and a job I enjoy. The flipside is that I don't have multiple expensive cars, our house is nice but not in the most expensive neighborhoods, we only go on 1 family vacation per year (partly based on age of the kids), and I'll take a bit longer to pay off my loans. I wouldn't be happier in another specialty that paid more but kept me away from the family more, either. I also wouldn't be happier in the ROAD specialties because I like being a primary care provider 🙂 Do what you will be happy doing.
 
brats800 said:
We had our 1st kid just before the end of med school, our 2nd at the start of 2nd year, and our 3rd just after finishing residency. It is about priorities. For me, I'd rather be paid quite well doing FM while still having good hours and a job I enjoy. The flipside is that I don't have multiple expensive cars, our house is nice but not in the most expensive neighborhoods, we only go on 1 family vacation per year (partly based on age of the kids), and I'll take a bit longer to pay off my loans. I wouldn't be happier in another specialty that paid more but kept me away from the family more, either. I also wouldn't be happier in the ROAD specialties because I like being a primary care provider 🙂 Do what you will be happy doing.
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Thanks for taking the time to reply Brats! Your post struck pretty close to home there. Glad to see someone making it work. Family first, most definitely. That's where my heart is.
 
brats800 said:
We had our 1st kid just before the end of med school, our 2nd at the start of 2nd year, and our 3rd just after finishing residency. It is about priorities. For me, I'd rather be paid quite well doing FM while still having good hours and a job I enjoy. The flipside is that I don't have multiple expensive cars, our house is nice but not in the most expensive neighborhoods, we only go on 1 family vacation per year (partly based on age of the kids), and I'll take a bit longer to pay off my loans. I wouldn't be happier in another specialty that paid more but kept me away from the family more, either. I also wouldn't be happier in the ROAD specialties because I like being a primary care provider 🙂 Do what you will be happy doing.
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AMEN! I chose this path for many reasons, but chief among them was the fact I could work M-F with basically banker's hours and be home every night, not carrying a pager and have dinner with my family and help out with the kids. Time with my kids cannot be bought, and I'm quite pleased with my decision. I'd shoot myself if I had to constantly miss things for "work". So far, it's working out quite well.....and I'm now paying more in taxes per month than I grossed as a resident, so I'm not gonna starve.

In addition, just got approved for loan repayment and am building a practice VERY quickly, so things are going quite well.
 
How reliable are the job listings on www.merritthawkins.com? As I have noticed, the income potential in most listings are over $200K for FM. On the other hand, the income potentials listed for Derm, Ortho and GI are over $700K, and it seems exaggerated.
 
rib50 said:
How reliable are the job listings on www.merritthawkins.com? As I have noticed, the income potential in most listings are over $200K for FM. On the other hand, the income potentials listed for Derm, Ortho and GI are over $700K, and it seems exaggerated.
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The "income potential" is usually what docs who have been there several years are making. Your best bet is not to use recruiters. They are going to make things sound great but are really just wanting you to sign the contract. Whatever they tell you does not matter if it is not in the contract. Find the area you want to live and seek out the hospital or clinic's own recruiter. You will get a better idea of the job and explained how the position will be paid.
 
SnakeOil said:
Plus they didn't have to give their cell phone # to all their patients.
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I'm a med student and we actually had patient in our "practice of medicine" class complain that doctors should give their private numbers to patients, a lot of my M1 classmates agreed because they are young impressionable and short sighted, I immediately though she was insane. Physician's giving out their private number to patients would never be able to leave work.
 
EMDO2018 said:
I'm a med student and we actually had patient in our "practice of medicine" class complain that doctors should give their private numbers to patients, a lot of my M1 classmates agreed because they are young impressionable and short sighted, I immediately though she was insane. Physician's giving out their private number to patients would never be able to leave work.
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Even keeping your number unlisted is not good enough. Some patients will find it. There is no reason for a patient to have your private number. If they have questions after hours there is the answering service. If patients had your number, some would call you 24/7. Even on the rare occasion I have had to call a patient from home, I used the *67 to block my phone number from caller ID.
 
EMDO2018 said:
I'm a med student and we actually had patient in our "practice of medicine" class complain that doctors should give their private numbers to patients, a lot of my M1 classmates agreed because they are young impressionable and short sighted, I immediately though she was insane. Physician's giving out their private number to patients would never be able to leave work.
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You'd be surprised. Ignoring the DPC model where patient's do get the doctor's cell number, I've found that most patients won't abuse this if you offer it. I currently work at an Urgent Care and probably give out my cell phone number 3-4x/week to patients I'm either a little worried about or who just seem very worried themselves. In 3 months, not one of these patients have called me. They have, however, been shocked that I would give them my personal number and were exceptionally appreciative.

Now obviously you couldn't do this in a regular sized practice of several thousand. Even if each person only called you once per year, that's 5-6 calls per day per 2000 patients.
 
Our pediatrician gave us theirs....called them 4 times after hours total between our two kids. Only one of those ended up being a necessary call, but we were new parents and flat out didn't know if our kid was being a normal kid or was sick
 
Two specialists I have rotated with give out their numbers to patients, one is a surgeon, the other an ID doc who works with lots of HIV/AIDS patients. They go home. They aren't bothered. They text patients back or call back... Both said they'd rather just give a patient the number than have it go to an on-call service...
 
I go to a midwest program and the third years are currently in negotiation for contracts. The two big organizations are paying either 175k + signing bonus or 200k per year; both guaranteed for 2 years. This is for 4 days per week. On call 1 to 2 days per month.
 
HelloGoodbye said:
I go to a midwest program and the third years are currently in negotiation for contracts. The two big organizations are paying either 175k + signing bonus or 200k per year; both guaranteed for 2 years. This is for 4 days per week. On call 1 to 2 days per month.
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After their 3 years their pay will be production based most likely and they may be required to see a minimum number of patients a day. That sounds about right for mid west. Hope their lawyer negotiate loan repayment in their too.
 
drcrispmd said:
After their 3 years their pay will be production based most likely and they may be required to see a minimum number of patients a day. That sounds about right for mid west. Hope their lawyer negotiate loan repayment in their too.
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This is one of the reasons I have never been able to keep a real job. I just can't stomach some admin telling me I have to see 25+ people a day and I'm stuck charting until 8-9pm and they go home at 5.
 
cabinbuilder said:
This is one of the reasons I have never been able to keep a real job. I just can't stomach some admin telling me I have to see 25+ people a day and I'm stuck charting until 8-9pm and they go home at 5.
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Well, not everyone with a "real job" has somebody telling them how many patients they have to see. 😉

Anyway, don't you still face the same issue as a locums? I doubt you have much control over your volume as a contract person. The only difference is that it's a bit easier to tell them to take this job and shove it.
 
Blue Dog said:
Well, not everyone with a "real job" has somebody telling them how many patients they have to see. 😉

Anyway, don't you still face the same issue as a locums? I doubt you have much control over your volume as a contract person. The only difference is that it's a bit easier to tell them to take this job and shove it.
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No, I do not face the same thing as locums as I generally only see the walk-in's/overflow or urgent care. So it's whatever comes in the door. Of course sometimes I get killed an see a ton but other times it's a slow day. No one is telling me I have to see 20 people a day. And yes, I do have the luxury of walking at any time.
 
I'm straight salary that goes up $20k every 3 years. I know some that need to see 25+ for production. Make sure you know how your salary is earned and it is written detailed in your contract. A lot of jobs advertise their jobs as "potential" salary (basically seeing 25+ patients a day to get that advertised). And always have a lawyer that is experienced in physician contracts to look over it.
 
www.merritthawkins.com/

Look at REAL current offers posted today. Also, you can read their white paper they produce each year on initial salaries, bonus, etc.. total compensation in every specialty. So, don't listen to people who "think", look at a company that has the facts.
 
^ That sounds like a commercial!
 
It did sounds like a commercial, sorry. I have no disclosures on recommending that site. Only they do post many of the salaries and area of the country jobs are in. When I was in hospital admin, we did not use that company, but I know of hospitals who do because they are so well known nationally.
 
PMRMD2B said:
It did sounds like a commercial, sorry. I have no disclosures on recommending that site. Only they do post many of the salaries and area of the country jobs are in. When I was in hospital admin, we did not use that company, but I know of hospitals who do because they are so well known nationally.
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I'm glad you mentioned the site. I've heard it mentioned a number of times but never really took a moment to check out their work. Anyhow, I thought their recent recruiting incentives publication (which includes a compensation report broken down according to speciality) to be interesting. Sure many of you have seen it, but for those who haven't:

http://www.merritthawkins.com/uploadedFiles/MerrittHawkings/Surveys/mha2014incensurvey.pdf

*** Jump to page 9 if you're just interested in the compensation breakdown***
 
I think that is about as "real world" of a current reference one can get on the current offerings and trends in compensation for physicians. Thanks for the link.
 
"64% of Merritt Hawkins’ search assignments were for hospital-employed settings, while solo practice, which represented 20% of Merritt Hawkins’ search assignment settings in 2004, represented less than 1% of Merritt Hawkins’ assignments in the period covered by this Review" (pg. 4 under the above link)

I knew that many solo docs were quitting in response to Obamacare, but I had no idea it was this bad. As someone who hopes to go into solo practice in the future, I wonder what the specific financial reasons for this change are. For someone who doesn't take medicare/medicaid, what specific aspects of the law directly impact a solo family doc's financials between 2013 and 2014?
 
NDMD said:
Finished residency in 2010. Base was $200K for the first two years. FP w/OB, rural community with a population under 25,000.

Here are some real world numbers taken from my tax returns:

2010: $124,000 (partial year includes residency salary)
2011: $211,000
2012: $290,000
2013: $339,000
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How did you make the jump from 211,000 base to 339,000 in 2 years? Did you change jobs and go from outpatient to urgent care or hospitalist work or did you just start working a LOT more hours?
 
organdonor said:
I'm getting offers now for
1. Guaranteed salary of 190k and a 35k sign on bonus
2. guaranteed salary of 230k, no sign on bonus

for outpatient 4 days per week.
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That is a great offer. I am interesting how you will get paid after guarantee, and how many hours you are expected to work per day?
 
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