IceMan007

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I keep reading that general pediatricians are on the low end of the pay scale, but I have no concept of what the pay scale is and what would relatively be the low end. Can someone put up some numbers to give us a better idea? Thanks.
 

oldbearprofessor

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I keep reading that general pediatricians are on the low end of the pay scale, but I have no concept of what the pay scale is and what would relatively be the low end. Can someone put up some numbers to give us a better idea? Thanks.
Sure, that's why we created a FAQ!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=6306652&postcount=17 and go look at #8

Alternately, try putting in the words "pediatricians" and "salary" into Google and the first handful of links I got back had the answers! Actually, the ones I looked at were pretty reasonable answers too. Of course, you realize that since you are a premed, these numbers might change between now and when you finish your pedi residency in 8-10 years or whenever?

I will ask you, however, the same question I've asked others who ask the same question here. That is "What is the amount you would need to earn to decide to become a pediatrician?" Answer that question honestly for yourself and then you can make some career decisions. Pediatric salaries may go up a bit or may go down a bit over the next 10 years, but I personally doubt there will be some massive change such that general pediatricians don't make about what other primary care physicians make and that is towards the lower end, or even at the lower end, of the income curve.
 
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Sure, that's why we created a FAQ!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=6306652&postcount=17 and go look at #8

Alternately, try putting in the words "pediatricians" and "salary" into Google and the first handful of links I got back had the answers! Actually, the ones I looked at were pretty reasonable answers too. Of course, you realize that since you are a premed, these numbers might change between now and when you finish your pedi residency in 8-10 years or whenever?

I will ask you, however, the same question I've asked others who ask the same question here. That is "What is the amount you would need to earn to decide to become a pediatrician?" Answer that question honestly for yourself and then you can make some career decisions. Pediatric salaries may go up a bit or may go down a bit over the next 10 years, but I personally doubt there will be some massive change such that general pediatricians don't make about what other primary care physicians make and that is towards the lower end, or even at the lower end, of the income curve.
Does anyone know what happened to this FAQ? It'd be nice to have an updated version of this
 

NurWollen

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Do pediatric hospitalists generally make a little more than you would in a primarily outpatient practice? Would it be practical to make >200k working as a pediatric hospitalist and moonlighting on peds urgent care, etc? I'm interested in pediatrics but I go to one of the most expensive med schools in the country, so I'm just trying to see what my options would be in peds with >400k in loan debt.
 
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mvenus929

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Do pediatric hospitalists generally make a little more than you would in a primarily outpatient practice? Would it be practical to make >200k working as a pediatric hospitalist and moonlighting on peds urgent care, etc? I'm interested in pediatrics but I go to one of the most expensive med schools in the country, so I'm just trying to see what my options would be in peds with >400k in loan debt.
Our third years are currently working on job offers, and I've heard of offers of >200K in an outpatient practice with no hospital call. Just depends on whether or not you want to move to Montana or Upstate NY.
 
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Stitch

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There's a very wide range. As Mvenus says, it just depends on where you want to be and what you want to do. Yes it's possible, but there are always trade offs.
 
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Salary trend for peds is down. 2013 Medscape salary report were next to the bottom and 2014 were at the very bottom
 

mvenus929

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Compensation varies widely for employment-without-ownership. Commonly around $180,000-$220,000 for full time (36 billable hours/week) general peds, often more with productivity and quality bonuses, and more in underserved rural areas. Ped sub specialists earn way more, especially surgical, like ped cardiac surgeons at $600,000+.
Peds cardiac surgery is not a pediatric subspecialty; it is a subspecialty of cardiothoracic surgery, which is a subspecialty of general surgery. Thus, it does not apply to those pursing pediatrics.
 
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oldbearprofessor

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I have deleted the recruiter's post as it was a disguised job-advertising posting that was posted elsewhere as well. Personally, I wouldn't be too enthused about anecdotal data from someone who thinks that ped subspecialists earn way more than general pediatricians (not true except for a couple specialties, this is actual data...) and doesn't know that surgeons of any sort are not pediatric subspecialists.
 
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KBorglum

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mea culpa.
I wasn't reporting on how the "pediatric specialist" was trained, I was trying to help the poster looking for good info about how they are viewed in the"market" for compensation .

"Anecdotal data"?
"My" data is from the national Medical Group Management Association's annual Physician Compensation and Productivity Survey - the leading report on physician compensation in the country for decades, used by most medical employers and courts, which lists all pediatric-related specialties under Pediatric Specialties, not under Surgical Specialties, for compensation statistical comparison. For $765 you can buy the report and verify this for yourself. Page 165.

As to compensation comparisons; of all 31 "pediatric specialties" representing data on thousands of physicians, (including pediatric surgeons per the MGMA approach), the only ones earning less than general pediatrics in the median 2014 MGMA report are adolescent medicine, pediatric allergy, child development, endocrinology, genetics, hospitalist, infections disease, and urgent care. So only 7 of the 22 non-surgical ped specialties earn less than general pediatricians by their definition. Not that that's the way I think things should be, but that's what the data shows.

I'm also a participant in the National Society of Certified Healthcare Business Consultant's Physician Statistics Reports, which is by far the best report available on itemized overhead in ped practices, which reports that the average reporting general pediatrician's compensation last year was $275,607. But I would suggest that those pediatricians don't have "average" data, since they have to have a practice management expert consultant or CPA in order to submit the data, so they likely perform better fiscally.

Note that Medscape data is self-reported, and un-verified, unlike the other two reports above. I would argue that income for self-employed peds reporting to Medscape might be down (which is curious given the PPACA bonuses), but overall salaries for employed peds is up due to the competition for employees created by PPACA ("ObamaCare") ACOs.It will be interesting to see the impact of the loss of the 2013-14 increased reimbursement created by PPACA, when the 2015 data is in. I'm afraid its going to cause many more independent practices to fold.

I have started, negotiated employment, brokered, and business-trained hundreds of pediatricians of many types over the last 30 years, so have plenty of "street knowledge" to back up my understanding of the compensation reports, and I stand by it.

If you have better data, I could use it; so please report it, thanks.
 

oldbearprofessor

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calvnandhobbs68

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Salary trend for peds is down. 2013 Medscape salary report were next to the bottom and 2014 were at the very bottom
This doesn't mean anything. Year over year trend within the specialty is up, it doesn't exactly matter how it's performing vs other specialties. Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens after the Medicaid reimbursement parity expires for most states though.
 

RuralMedicine

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mea culpa.
I wasn't reporting on how the "pediatric specialist" was trained, I was trying to help the poster looking for good info about how they are viewed in the"market" for compensation .

"Anecdotal data"?
"My" data is from the national Medical Group Management Association's annual Physician Compensation and Productivity Survey - the leading report on physician compensation in the country for decades, used by most medical employers and courts, which lists all pediatric-related specialties under Pediatric Specialties, not under Surgical Specialties, for compensation statistical comparison. For $765 you can buy the report and verify this for yourself. Page 165.
I think OBP's point was that since Pediatric Surgery and Pediatric CV Surgery are both fellowships/sub fellowships from General Surgery it is unlikely that physicians training through that pathway would be posting on Pediatrics forum seeking salary guidance/advice. He likely considered your response a bit irrelevant and short sighted for that reason.

As to compensation comparisons; of all 31 "pediatric specialties" representing data on thousands of physicians, (including pediatric surgeons per the MGMA approach), the only ones earning less than general pediatrics in the median 2014 MGMA report are adolescent medicine, pediatric allergy, child development, endocrinology, genetics, hospitalist, infections disease, and urgent care. So only 7 of the 22 non-surgical ped specialties earn less than general pediatricians by their definition. Not that that's the way I think things should be, but that's what the data shows.
To be fair, both UC and hospitalist aren't really designated or developed specialties. Peds UCs will hire general pediatricians right out of residency (some of them will hire FM docs right out of residency too). Hospitalist positions are similar although many are more university clustered and that likely explains some of the salary skew (although some of the university hospitalist jobs are actually decent deals when you consider money in terms of lifestyle, and liability and may be desirable/ good fits for other reasons).
 

drkristy85

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I am now applying for pediatric jobs and most are offering starting $190,000-$230,000. That's the guaranteed salary for first two years, then its production-based. You can make more than the guaranteed salary if your production is good. The more senior pediatricians are making $250,000 or so in most of the offices. This is in the MidWest and this is outpatient. I believe the lowest salaries are in areas like NYC, San Fran, etc. even though cost of living there is quite high.
 

lockjaw

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I just started a primary care pediatrics job, and I will be making $165,000 a year. My initial contract is for 2 years with that guaranteed salary, and then I will switch to a contract that allows for productivity-based bonuses. The other practice I look at was offering around $140,000. This is in New England, where the area is highly saturated with physicians and therefore salaries are lower. My salary seems be to right around the average for new pediatricians in the area who are straight out of training.
 

olivarynucleus

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Why is peds compensation so low? If there is a shortage, they should be able to negotiate for more money. I honestly think peds is so low is because its a specialty full of women who A. Don't work as much as men, and B. Usually married to a guy who is also a doctor so their peds salary doesn't matter.
 

JMMH

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Too many variables. Location, practice type, etc. I've heard of people making low $100,000's and others making $250,000+.

What is certain is that people working in desirable locations such as bigger cities make less, as do people practicing in academics.
 

Stitch

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Why is peds compensation so low? If there is a shortage, they should be able to negotiate for more money. I honestly think peds is so low is because its a specialty full of women who A. Don't work as much as men, and B. Usually married to a guy who is also a doctor so their peds salary doesn't matter.
Please drop your sexist assumptions/misogynistic comments. They are neither cool nor accurate.

As JMMH mentioned there are a lot of reasons. Traditionally most things in medicine revolve around adults, and kids take a back seat. After all kids can't vote or lobby. So insurance companies by default aren't structured to reimburse. That's actually changing some. We also have a large medicaid patient base, especially in the academic setting. People who go into private practice make quite a bit more as they see more insured patients. Another issue is the fact that there are few procedures in general peds, and procedures pay in our health care system. Kids are also generally considered healthy, which means there's quite a bit of counseling and much of what pediatricians do is preventative care. While extremely valuable for families and the kids, this sort of thing doesn't really earn great reimbursement.
 
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drkristy85

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I've been thinking about this a lot. For the longest time I have been terrified of letting myself consider peds, but I'm starting to let go of that fear. What is even more terrifying than a 1:1 debt to income ratio (which is totally manageable by the way) is having a career in a specialty that you aren't 100% sold on.

Disclaimer: I want to live in the Midwest, so the low cost of living there make a 200k peds salary look pretty decent.
It's important to pick a specialty that you enjoy and could see yourself doing for the rest of your life. Pediatricians routinely score very high on the job satisfaction scale, so are generally pretty happy. Low burn-out rate. But only you can decide if it's right for you.

Additionally, you should know that there are jobs who offer partial loan repayment in addition to salary, which makes it easier to pay them off. One of the seniors who just graduated got a job like that.
 
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