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And if he's a guy, we need to maintain our "ball space."
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How Much Do Residents Get Paid?
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And if he's a guy, we need to maintain our "ball space."
Another thing you guys forget is that 5 years from now, 40K will be worth less than 40K today, and these resident programs don't factor inflation into residents pay. Honestly, residency is a piece of crap.
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Obviously not, because some of the shiny happy posters on this thread are going to be floating around loving every friggin' minute of it wondering whatever to do with the $15,000 dollar windfall that they scammed out of the hospital because, you know, like, $25,000 would be fair.
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I never said the compensation was fair for the amount of work done, I said that you can live with it.
The fairness is a completely separate issue (no, I don't think compensation is fair).
I'm sure these hospitals that make money off of the sweats and tears of these poor, hapless residents would disagree.
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By the way, it does not depend on specialty. The most bitter, over-worked surgery resident makes the same as those no-good, lazy, non-hacking PM&R bastards.
When I finally start working exclusively in the the Emergency Department (two months, baby!) I will generally work 16 ten or 12-hour shifts in a 28-day block (really) which will give me something like 12 or 13 days off per month (less conferences). A surgery resident will be working like a dog for five years with a third of my days off and still make the same as a PGY-3 as I make for less hours...another reason why residency pay is unfair.
I'm so shooting for PM&R. Fingers crossed!
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And the sad truth is that they could probably pay us less or not at all and there would still be a steady stream of people willing to "eat a poop hotdog" for the privilege. That's why nothing will ever change. It's too much of a seller's market.
Panda, let's assume I am the US President 😉 and I set up a commission to address residents' working conditions, compensation and other grievances. So you appear before this hypothetical commission, how will you answer the following questions?
1. How much money (in dollar terms, with your rationale) do you think would be a fair compensation for the residents for hours they currently work?
2. And if you don't want to work the deathly long hours (80 hours+ per week), would you prefer to only work 40 hours per week (half as long) for a residency period that is TWICE as long?
3. What other aspects of residents' working conditions or training would you like to change and why?
1. How much money (in dollar terms, with your rationale) do you think would be a fair compensation for the residents for hours they currently work?
2. And if you don't want to work the deathly long hours (80 hours+ per week), would you prefer to only work 40 hours per week (half as long) for a residency period that is TWICE as long?
3. What other aspects of residents' working conditions or training would you like to change and why?
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60 hours per week. Shifts with no call. Didactics given as a protected block on one day of the week. $60,000 as an intern and the whole enchilada, $110,000 less actual expense, after passing Step 3 and obtaining a full license. If call is necessary, mandatory five hour "protected" rest period with no admits or routine floor calls but only calls for real emergencies like codes, decompensating patients, or emergency surgery allowed.
Barring that, as least as much as the nurses make on an hourly basis (with overtime) or at least what a PA with three years of training makes.
If it is determined that 60 hours per week is not enough to train you in your specialty, then by all means add an extra year to three year programs. But have a care, as many of you will find, much of residency training is incredibly inefficient and remains so because the hospital has no incentive to streamline paperwork and scut so long as they are paying their help only 10 bucks an hour.
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Hell, if I could get four or five hours of sleep a night I'd be all right.
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"B-b-but Panda, seriously now, the admits will pile up in the Emergency Department, who's gonna admit those patients? Huh?"
Not my problem. They can either wait or the hospital can hire more help. I guess I am useful after all, huh?
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I suppose, but managers at mcdonalds and wal-mart aren't going to make $100-$300k after a few years of $40-$50k. so it's not a fair comparison any more than me comparing a resident working 80 hours to an entry level office job working 60 hours for $25k or $30k.
and as far as the general assumption that i was talking about a single person making that salary, i'm actually married, so that generality doesn't really count. anyways, don't mean to start an argument, i just get a good laugh out of so many people on sdn being so "entitled." and, for those that are coming from financial situations that aren't compatible with the financial aspects of med school and residency, it should be noted that pursuing medicine was a choice..."don't do the crime if you can't do the time" so to speak.
Dear pre-meds,
Please continue to uphold your idealistic worldview on physician compensation. We all know that those who work for much less than they are worth are the true "good" doctors who "do it for the right reasons", especially when you work for billionaires! We need the money more than you, especially given that Ferrari just came out with the new F430 Challenge... guess what, they didn't get any cheaper.
Keep working hard!
Sincerely,
Corporate Medicine
PS.
The red is the prettiest!
Please continue to uphold your idealistic worldview on physician compensation. We all know that those who work for much less than they are worth are the true "good" doctors who "do it for the right reasons", especially when you work for billionaires! We need the money more than you, especially given that Ferrari just came out with the new F430 Challenge... guess what, they didn't get any cheaper.
Keep working hard!
Sincerely,
Corporate Medicine
PS.
The red is the prettiest!
Dear pre-meds,
Please continue to uphold your idealistic worldview on physician compensation. We all know that those who work for much less than they are worth are the true "good" doctors who "do it for the right reasons", especially when you work for billionaires! We need the money more than you, especially given that Ferrari just came out with the new F430 Challenge... guess what, they didn't get any cheaper.
Keep working hard!
Sincerely,
Corporate Medicine
PS.
The red is the prettiest!
That is why the quicker you seperate yourself from these idealist madmen and join the cooperate machinery, the better.
http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/srch/1,1239,,00.html
this is the AMA website for all the residency postions out there, it tells u the average hours, the perks each hospital has, and the money.....its my favorite website to look at when I get depressed about school
this is the AMA website for all the residency postions out there, it tells u the average hours, the perks each hospital has, and the money.....its my favorite website to look at when I get depressed about school
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The perks are way overrated. "Free Parking." Well la-dee-friggin' la. "On call meal allowance." Nice, but that doesn't mean you eat for free (like we do at my hospital) just that you may get a crappy $6.60 per night when on call. Good lord. What is that, an extra 600 bucks a year? Like I said, even at my program, I'd rather have the money than eat for free because peanut butter is cheap and I could use an extra 5000 bucks.
CME money? Good, of course, but it doesn't contribute to your standard of living.
Folks, residency is a bitch. It is a painful slog full of humiliation, defeat, self-doubt, long hours, poor pay, bad health, fatigue, and an overwhelming desire to just get away from it all. It blows on so many individual levels that if you folks knew the half of it you'd rip up your applications and say, "Sure, being a doctor is probably pretty cool but it just ain't worth that ****."
For my part, it is making me physically ill on a regular basis, like every fourth night when I have call. I get home and my wife says some variation of, "You look like ****." And I feel it, too. For 11 bucks an hour.
Don't be so damn depressing, sure I'm a first year and as of now medical school pretty much sucks, but there days I love it and for all the hell it is i wouldn't pick another career path for anything. Look medicine isn't the way to go if your just looking for money as idealistic as it sounds you better be going into this for the right reasons or ur just going to be unhappy...Your reminding me of the fat man in the House of God......
I don't care what kind of reason you have for going into medicne, staying awake for 30 hours straight sucks, and it especially sucks if you are not getting compensated in any way for it.
i don't think there's any point in us trying to stop the residents from being cranky...let's just hope that when we're residents, we have more productive things to do than go on SDN in the pre-allo forum and post angry rants about how much life sucks. 😴
certainly this depends on where one lives. i haven't heard from any of my friends in residency (all three of them) about the pay. i'm pretty sure it's comortable because, like many have said, most of the time is spent at work. most would go to loans anyway.
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Yeah, geez, he should be cheerful about working his ass off for peanuts.
not only does this unproductive poster stand atop his soapbox on the forums, he has his own blog, too. what a loser.
seeing your disregard for this, let me suggest to you that you read it once in a while. http://www.pandabearmd.blogspot.com maybe he can shine some light on the parts of the job you ignore.
sure it sucks reading about how ****ty my future job will be, but at least i know what it's like and it's what i'm looking for.
also, panda is a god with words. if it seems like i'm offended it's cuz i am.
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I want to point out that this endorsement was entirely unsolicited.
Seriously though, if you think my blog is about how much medicine sucks you don't really understand it. I think I'm just telling people how it really is. If everything is not happy and shiney on my blog it's because it's not in reality.
I also have a lot, I mean a lot, of content on my blog. More than most blogs and none of it of the "What I ate for dinner" variety. Almost 100 articles and probably enough for a decent sized book. Love it or hate it, at least appreciate the monumental effort involved, sometimes on when I am on call and have a break in the action.
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http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/pgm/0,1238,0403521106,00.html
wtf?
51.7k salary PGY-2? 4 Vacation weeks??? 90 sick days?? Is there some sorta typo here?
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Pretty typical for residents in NYC. But I'm SURE the 90 days of sick leave is a typo, unless they are referring to FMLA.
Add 35hrs to the average hours, subtract all the sick days(I have heard it is hard to call in sick) and you will get the correct info. That website is not consistent with what the people on ground say. There are surgery and IM residents that log a good solid 95hrs/week, but you don't see that on the website.
Dear naïve med student,
Remember when we told you COMPETITIVE SALARY:
What we meant was We remain competitive by paying less than our competitors.
Remember when we told you MUST BE DEADLINE ORIENTED:
What we meant was You'll be six months behind schedule on your first day.
Remember when we told you SOME OVERTIME REQUIRED:
What we meant was A lot of time each night and a lot of time each weekend.
Remember when we told you DUTIES WILL VARY:
What we meant was Anyone on the floor can boss you around.
Remember when we told you MUST HAVE AN EYE FOR DETAIL:
What we meant was We have no quality control.
Remember when we told you SEEKING CANDIDATES WITH A WIDE VARIETY OF EXPERIENCE:
What we meant was You'll need it to replace three people who just left.
Remember when we told you PROBLEM-SOLVING SKILLS A MUST:
What we meant was You're walking into a department in perpetual chaos.
Remember when we told you REQUIRES TEAM LEADERSHIP SKILLS:
What we meant was You'll have the responsibilities of a chief resident, without the pay or respect.
Remember when we told you GOOD COMMUNICATION SKILLS:
What we meant was Attending communicates, you listen, figure out what they want, and then do it.
Yours truly,
We'Lie Allote
Director of Residency Admissions
Remember when we told you COMPETITIVE SALARY:
What we meant was We remain competitive by paying less than our competitors.
Remember when we told you MUST BE DEADLINE ORIENTED:
What we meant was You'll be six months behind schedule on your first day.
Remember when we told you SOME OVERTIME REQUIRED:
What we meant was A lot of time each night and a lot of time each weekend.
Remember when we told you DUTIES WILL VARY:
What we meant was Anyone on the floor can boss you around.
Remember when we told you MUST HAVE AN EYE FOR DETAIL:
What we meant was We have no quality control.
Remember when we told you SEEKING CANDIDATES WITH A WIDE VARIETY OF EXPERIENCE:
What we meant was You'll need it to replace three people who just left.
Remember when we told you PROBLEM-SOLVING SKILLS A MUST:
What we meant was You're walking into a department in perpetual chaos.
Remember when we told you REQUIRES TEAM LEADERSHIP SKILLS:
What we meant was You'll have the responsibilities of a chief resident, without the pay or respect.
Remember when we told you GOOD COMMUNICATION SKILLS:
What we meant was Attending communicates, you listen, figure out what they want, and then do it.
Yours truly,
We'Lie Allote
Director of Residency Admissions
I might be misinterpreting but you are an M1, right. You havent even any of the hard years in medical school, much less residency. You're comparing 1st year to residency?
I dont know what you're talking about with first year being hell. My experience has been relatively easy. Sure lots of work, but also lots of free time. I think you are in for a very rude awakening.
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I never had as much free time as I did in first and second year. Seriously, once you get over the intitial shock it's almost like being on vacation from the real world.
Some are like panda's. But on some you work 8 hour shifts. It just depends. 40-50K a year can range from a dismal existance in NY to a decent living in Kansas. All the residents I talk to at the ER where I work say that they tack on 20-30K a year by moonlighting a couple times a week. The answer is easy, just be in the top 5% of your class in med school so you can match where you want and have at least that much control over the conditions of your residency.
It's illegal for doctors to unionize.
No it is not.
http://www.physiciansnews.com/law/497union.html
"At the most basic level, there is a constitutional right to associate and forming something called a "union" is fundamentally no different than forming a County Medical Society or the PPMA."
"The benefits obtained are first determined by whether the doctor is or is not an employee. Since the National Labor Relations Act applies to "labor" or employees, doctors who are employees can reap all of the benefits of union membershipin particular, the right to bargain collectively."
"Doctors who are not employees, who for example have their own practices, cannot bargain collectively whether or not they join a union. Because they are not employees, they do not have the right to bargain collectively and therefore are for that purpose no differently situated than if they were simply members of a Medical Society."
"Physicians who are not employees but are affiliated with a larger union may use that broader bargaining power to lobby or petition the government for health care legislation more to the liking of physicians. Coming together for this purpose is perfectly permissible for all physicians"
There is however no law presently that directly prohibits non-supervisory resident doctors from not only unionizing but also staging a walk out. We are having this discusion only because you have not seen the worst of circumstances(which is on it's way). When you get pushed far enough you will not care which law said what, and going on strike will be a knee jerk reflex. If you doubt me, ask german doctors.
Two weeks ago i was ecstatic about being accepted to medical school, now it seems i will have to study my a** off for 2 years, and then get treated like crap for another 2 (hoping to learn what i want to do with my life 2 weeks at a time) and then spend another 3+ years working non-stop, not sleeping, getting paid nothing (So Cal, 40k=nearly nothing), and i WON'T even be able to afford a nice pair of shoes?! This translates to one thing... find a rich husband...
Honestly, at this point hearing about the grueling hours of residency i don't know if i can do it.. of course i about 4 years away but i don't think i can even stay up for 30 hours let alone play doctor for 30 hours... Is this something med school will more or less train you for? Do people just rise to the occassion? Anyone have any (some what) reassuring experiences to share? (I mean other than quit medicine you're a done)..
This makes me want to take a vacation... I have 5 months to live it up... Vegas here i come
Even the Navy seals have not succeeded in training people to stay up that long without side-effects. It will always suck whenever you do it. I can't concieve of how medschool will train you for that kind of a thing. The general opinion out there is that the life of a resident sucks. No way to sugar coat it. Unless you land in what some call a "cushy" resident program, your residency experience is probably going to suck too. The idea of marrying rich might be a good plan, but why wait 5 years for that?
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