How much do school rankings matter past a certain threshold?

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I think that overall it's very clear that US News rankings are not very useful except in very broad strokes. Mayo is the standout example, but there are many other examples of overrated schools and underrated schools.

I think a lot of people forget that within the cohort of "top" schools, there is tremendous variation in their individual unique emphases, strengths, and weaknesses. If I were to make a general system that took into account these broad categories, I would put something like this, a general classification system based on the top 20 USNWR schools given their unique emphases and strengths. I have put some schools in multiple categories as they clearly fit more than one. Harvard fits almost all of these except rural powerhouses in at least some fashion. All are listed in my own personal gestalt order.

I personally disagree that Stanford, UCSF, and Hopkins stand out uniquely above Penn, Columbia, Duke, and WashU at least-- US News just happens to capture what those schools are good at pretty well (look at Stanford's meteoric US News rankings rise due to lobbying of US news to use grant funding per faculty member-- shows that the rankings can be gamed). There is an argument to be made that it's really Harvard/Hopkins, Stanford/UCSF, Penn/Columbia/Duke, WashU/Mich imo but honestly the marginal differences are so small as to be insignificant other than Harvard imo.

1. Harvard. We've discussed why Harvard is number one and I think no matter what Harvard will top the list, unless you are an MD/PhD candidate who wants to do research specifically with one faculty member at another one of the institutions below, or if you are super interested in inner-city underserved health, in which case the below schools in the "inner-city" category could reasonably be justified as better. Harvard basically fits all of these, even inner-city, to some extent, except for rural powerhouses though.

2. Basic and Translational research powerhouses. These schools are particularly apt at basic and translational research and successful at integrating them into their curricula. These schools also tend to produce a large number of clinician scientists and academics, and tend to match an overwhelming number of their class to top academic residencies:

1. Stanford 2. Duke, 2. WashU, 2.Hopkins, 5. UCSF, 6. Yale 7. Pitt, 8. Cornell

3. Schools with phenomenal inner-city clinical experience and focus on urban underserved. These schools have a reputation for producing students with very strong independent clinical skills, and send a decent number less to academic residencies and careers. Some of these schools produce a lot of students who pursue procedural specialties.

1. Columbia, 1. Penn, 1. Hopkins, 4. Pritzker 5. Northwestern

4. Schools with a reputation for attracting amazing clinical faculty who perform strong clinical (as opposed to translational or basic) research.

1. Mayo 1. UCSF 2. Hopkins 3. Penn 4. Michigan 5. Stanford 6. UCLA

5. Schools with a strong rural health emphasis

1. UWash 2. Duke 2. Mayo 4. Vandy 5. UCSD 6. WashU
Oh, jeeze, trying to make comparisons like these are like trying to compare the USS Iowa to the New Jersey, Wisconsin, or Missouri, much less to the Yamato or Musashi.

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Oh, jeeze, trying to make comparisons like these are like trying to compare the USS Iowa to the New Jersey, Wisconsin, or Missouri, much less to the Yamato or Musashi.
This thread has definitely shown me that SDN puts a lot of stock into rankings.
 
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And residency program directors unfortunately
They don't think in terms of that way, especially from rankings from USNW&R. Just no.
Knowing the programs from their graduates? Yes.

These things are far more important:
USMLE Step 1/COMLEX Level 1 score
Letters of recommendation in the specialty
Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE/Dean's Letter)
USMLE Step 2 CK/COMLEX Level 2 CE score
Grades in required clerkships
Personal Statement
Class ranking/quartile

Med schools are as much feeders to residencies as UG schools are to med schools.
 
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They don't think in terms of that way, especially from rankings from USNW&R. Just no.
Knowing the programs from their graduates? Yes.

These things are far more important:
USMLE Step 1/COMLEX Level 1 score
Letters of recommendation in the specialty
Medical Student Performance Evaluation (MSPE/Dean's Letter)
USMLE Step 2 CK/COMLEX Level 2 CE score
Grades in required clerkships
Personal Statement
Class ranking/quartile

Med schools are as much feeders to residencies as UG schools are to med schools.

You think residency PDs don't care about school name? The other things you listed matter but so does school name, especially for competitive residencies and specialties. Graduates from top schools can match well even if they are in the bottom of their class because PDs know their schools are strong. However, it's still difficult for graduates from low tiers to match into top residencies and specialties.
 
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You think residency PDs don't care about school name? The other things you listed matter but so does school name, especially for competitive residencies and specialties. Graduates from top schools can match well even if they are in the bottom of their class because PDs know their schools are strong. However, it's still difficult for graduates from low tiers to match into top residencies and specialties.
Read the PD survey and you tell me.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

And while we're at it, let's ask a real PD: Oh wise @aProgDirector ....you're needed!
 
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Read the PD survey and you tell me.
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

And while we're at it, let's ask a real PD: Oh wise @aProgDirector ....you're needed!

I thought the survey only shows general trends and not program specific. Even so, I'm curious to know what your (and aPD's) thoughts on this thread are:

It's insanely difficult to get into a Top IM Program from a non-top 25 medical school

It's also suggested on here that the relative competitiveness of derm/ENT/neurosurg/ortho etc. rivals that of top academic IM programs.
 
I thought the survey only shows general trends and not program specific. Even so, I'm curious to know what your (and aPD's) thoughts on this thread are:

It's insanely difficult to get into a Top IM Program from a non-top 25 medical school

It's also suggested on here that the relative competitiveness of derm/ENT/neurosurg/ortho etc. rivals that of top academic IM programs.

Oh spare me. Let's take three random programs
Let's take NYU IM:
Chief Residents | Department of Medicine
Of the ten Chief Residents, three went to: Gtown, U KY, Temple

Yale Orthopedics:
Residents > Orthopædics & Rehabilitation | Yale School of Medicine
Of the 10 PGY1s and 2: U WA, U CO, Wayne State, Tufts, Tulane

JHU Derm:
Residency Program: Johns Hopkins Dermatology
Penn State, MUSC, SUNY SB, U Miami, U MI, U NC (out of 18 PGY2-4s)

I agree that just as HMS wants Ivy grads, it's still not an impediment to go elsewhere for UG and then get into HMS. And likewise, for residencies at Really Top Medical Schools, it's SDN hype that you have be from the Top Ten med schools (which probably include 20 schools). It helps, but let's stop drinking the SDN Kool aid, OK?
 
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Oh spare me. Let's take three random programs
Let's take NYU IM:
Chief Residents | Department of Medicine
Of the ten Chief Residents, three went to: Gtown, U KY, Temple

Yale Orthopedics:
Residents > Orthopædics & Rehabilitation | Yale School of Medicine
Of the 10 PGY1s and 2: U WA, U CO, Wayne State, Tufts, Tulane

JHU Derm:
Residency Program: Johns Hopkins Dermatology
Penn State, MUSC, SUNY SB, U Miami, U MI, U NC (out of 18 PGY2-4s)

I agree that just as HMS wants Ivy grads, it's still not an impediment to go elsewhere for UG and then get into HMS. And likewise, for residencies at Really Top Medical Schools, it's SDN hype that you have be from the Top Ten med schools (which probably include 20 schools). It helps, but let's stop drinking the SDN Kool aid, OK?

I know I'm jumping in on this convo, but the residency programs you listed are not even Top 10 residency programs by reputation or research output according to doximity, which is the prime ranking system for residency programs by specialty. The schools are incredible medical schools, but that doesn't mean all of their residency programs are top notch as well. So I think it goes a little against your point.
 
Oh spare me. Let's take three random programs
Let's take NYU IM:
Chief Residents | Department of Medicine
Of the ten Chief Residents, three went to: Gtown, U KY, Temple

Yale Orthopedics:
Residents > Orthopædics & Rehabilitation | Yale School of Medicine
Of the 10 PGY1s and 2: U WA, U CO, Wayne State, Tufts, Tulane

JHU Derm:
Residency Program: Johns Hopkins Dermatology
Penn State, MUSC, SUNY SB, U Miami, U MI, U NC (out of 18 PGY2-4s)

I agree that just as HMS wants Ivy grads, it's still not an impediment to go elsewhere for UG and then get into HMS. And likewise, for residencies at Really Top Medical Schools, it's SDN hype that you have be from the Top Ten med schools (which probably include 20 schools). It helps, but let's stop drinking the SDN Kool aid, OK?

Hmm this is a good point. I'm also curious to know @aProgDirector comments on the matter regarding the elite bias in residency admissions. You're probably right that school name helps but not to the extent that not going to a top school = handicapping for residencies. The thread I linked was probably expressing paranoid views, but I just need some reassurance that it's the case and what I said was inaccurate.
 
I know I'm jumping in on this convo, but the residency programs you listed are not even Top 10 residency programs by reputation or research output according to doximity, which is the prime ranking system for residency programs by specialty. The schools are incredible medical schools, but that doesn't mean all of their residency programs are top notch as well. So I think it goes a little against your point.
Kindly name for me three random Top Residency programs, and then we'll see. I don't have access to Doximity.

And yes, I know that Top Medical School doesn't mean "Top Residency". I trust people int he field to tell me that.

While we're at it...wise @gyngyn ..what are the top three ObGyn residencies?

Wise @HomeSkool...what are the top three anesthesiology residencies?
 
Kindly name for me three random Top Residency programs, and then we'll see. I don't have access to Doximity.

And yes, I know that Top Medical School doesn't mean "Top Residency". I trust people int he field to tell me that.

While we're at it...wise @gyngyn ..what are the top three ObGyn residencies?

Wise @HomeSkool...what are the top three anesthesiology residencies?
I'm no PD, but according to Doximity the top 3 anesthesiology programs by reputation are UCSF, MGH, and Stanford. For Ob/gyn, they are BWH, UNC and UPMC (again by reputation).
 
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Oh spare me. Let's take three random programs
Let's take NYU IM:
Chief Residents | Department of Medicine
Of the ten Chief Residents, three went to: Gtown, U KY, Temple

Yale Orthopedics:
Residents > Orthopædics & Rehabilitation | Yale School of Medicine
Of the 10 PGY1s and 2: U WA, U CO, Wayne State, Tufts, Tulane

JHU Derm:
Residency Program: Johns Hopkins Dermatology
Penn State, MUSC, SUNY SB, U Miami, U MI, U NC (out of 18 PGY2-4s)

I agree that just as HMS wants Ivy grads, it's still not an impediment to go elsewhere for UG and then get into HMS. And likewise, for residencies at Really Top Medical Schools, it's SDN hype that you have be from the Top Ten med schools (which probably include 20 schools). It helps, but let's stop drinking the SDN Kool aid, OK?
I think the problem with this approach is we dont know the resume's of all of these graduates. Did the MUSC person take a research year whereas the others didnt? Did the U MI person have a terrible step score compared to the others?

The realization that hits most people gunning for competitive specialties is that it just isnt about the numbers, it is about the connections , the research, the LORs and calls from the chairman on your behalf. So if you go to state school that doesnt have a home program in ortho, or derm or Neurosurgery you are screwed. Or if you go to one with a residency program with no heavy hitters you are at a disadvantage. Or to the place that doesnt have research going that you can easily access you are also behind compared to your peers who are rubbing shoulders with people who have sway over PDs. You are going to have to bust your ass to line up stuff for yourself and even take extra time, compared to the person at a t-20 who is just going to walk up to the research office and get the contact information for thought leaders in the field to go interact with and do research with and build relationships with. A step score is only going to get you past a screen, everything else is what will land you the residency. Top schools provide all of this in spades compared to their lower ranked peers. Just like landing a job in the real world where no one cares about your standardized test score above a certain threshold and cares about who is vouching for you and what you have done (research) .
 
I'm no PD, but according to Doximity the top 3 anesthesiology programs by reputation are UCSF, MGH, and Stanford. For Ob/gyn, they are BWH, UNC and UPMC (again by reputation).
OK, just one for now (UNC)

14 residents, U VA, U MI, Drexel, IU, JHU, OR H&S, ECU-Brody, GWU, U KY, Duke, U WA, JHU, Dartmouth, RWJ-NJ. I count 7 non-Top 25. I'l let you guys argue over U MI, U VA and Duke.

Stanford gas doesn't tell you where their residents went!

And Lawper, stop adding confounders. One could do that ad nauseum. The whole discussion is about is it hard to get into Top Residency if you didn't go to a Top School? That's it.
 
I think the problem with this approach is we dont know the resume's of all of these graduates. Did the MUSC person take a research year whereas the others didnt? Did the U MI person have a terrible step score compared to the others?

The realization that hits most people gunning for competitive specialties is that it just isnt about the numbers, it is about the connections , the research, the LORs and calls from the chairman on your behalf. So if you go to state school that doesnt have a home program in ortho, or derm or Neurosurgery you are screwed. Or if you go to one with a residency program with no heavy hitters you are at a disadvantage. Or to the place that doesnt have research going that you can easily access you are also behind compared to your peers who are rubbing shoulders with people who have sway over PDs. You are going to have to bust your ass to line up stuff for yourself and even take extra time, compared to the person at a t-20 who is just going to walk up to the research office and get the contact information for thought leaders in the field to go interact with and do research with and build relationships with. A step score is only going to get you past a screen, everything else is what will land you the residency. Top schools provide all of this in spades compared to their lower ranked peers. Just like landing a job in the real world where no one cares about your standardized test score above a certain threshold and cares about who is vouching for you and what you have done (research) .
But I don't think anyone would dispute that going to a top school lends advantages over going to a low tier school. But I've seen people on SDN suggest that going to a top 5 school is more advantageous than a top 25 school. This is what I have trouble buying, and I why (again) I bring up the issue of thresholds.
 
And Lawper, stop adding confounders. One could do that ad nauseum. The whole discussion is about is it hard to get into Top Residency if you didn't go to a Top School? That's it.

Right that's the important question. And the answer is: school name helps but other things like good Step scores, good letters, good research, good clinical grades etc. matter more?
 
Right that's the important question. And the answer is: school name helps but other things like good Step scores, good letters, good research, good clinical grades etc. matter more?
There are correlations between those variables that are not completely independent.
 
But I don't think anyone would dispute that going to a top school lends advantages over going to a low tier school. But I've seen people on SDN suggest that going to a top 5 school is more advantageous than a top 25 school. This is what I have trouble buying, and I why (again) I bring up the issue of thresholds.
The problem with saying top 5 is that there are probably 10 schools that fit that billing.
 
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There are correlations between those variables that are not completely independent.
Eh, step scores are probably more related to median MCAT than school name. As far as I know, Michigan and Hopkins don't have impressive Step 1 averages whereas "lower" ranked schools such as Northwestern and Case have averages in the 240s.
 
Kindly name for me three random Top Residency programs, and then we'll see. I don't have access to Doximity.

And yes, I know that Top Medical School doesn't mean "Top Residency". I trust people int he field to tell me that.

While we're at it...wise @gyngyn ..what are the top three ObGyn residencies?

Wise @HomeSkool...what are the top three anesthesiology residencies?
I'll bet nobody here can guess.
I'm willing to give one, University of Alabama.
In order not to embarrass my colleagues, I won't give the names of the (very famous) worst programs.

I have no idea what Doximity says...
 
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So the question might also be, is there an advantage to going to a lower-ranked program if you will be happier in that location and more likely to rank higher than the other students? I realize all med school students are gunners on some level, but it might be a bit easier to be the top of a mid-tier class than at Harvard. Assuming you can get the same Step 1 score, would being AOA and highly ranked at a top-50 school put you in a better position than being in the middle of the class at a top-20 or top-5?
 
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I'll bet nobody here can guess.
I'm willing to give one, University of Alabama.
In order not to embarrass my colleagues, I won't give the names of the (very famous) worst programs.

I have no idea what Doximity says...

Huh. The doctor I shadowed did his residency (in OBGYN) and fellowship there (and he is well respected in his field - awesome person).
 
You think residency PDs don't care about school name? The other things you listed matter but so does school name, especially for competitive residencies and specialties. Graduates from top schools can match well even if they are in the bottom of their class because PDs know their schools are strong. However, it's still difficult for graduates from low tiers to match into top residencies and specialties.

FWIW, PDs tend to be practical people are care about superficial things like the rep of where the incoming interns are coming from a lot less than some of the other shot callers in the department. They're the ones who have to deal with you head-on if you're a weirdo, after all. While I mentioned upthread that our chair recruited hard at students from top schools, my PD really didn't give a sh-t.
 
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I stay away from these threads like the plague. Thanks for tagging me and pulling me in...

IMPD wrote in one of the other threads:

And let's be clear --- we're only arguing about the relative importance of pedigree. No one should seriously argue that pedigree is of no importance. That would be like arguing that good looks, a well endowed trust fund and great teeth/hair are of no importance. They all help mediocre people get into good positions and they provide the stamp of "open doors" that helps great people cement their authority.

In a practical way, how much is this pedigree worth paying for? I think that's a much more interesting question. If you have the choice of a 300k medical education vs a 150k, is it worth it?

Since you can't know beforehand how much you're going to value the real but difficult to measure benefit of pedigree, you're left with the discussion we see above. My main advice to people is that pedigree is generally worth the most to folks who are marginally motivated, highly value status or have extremely high ambitions. For everyone else, probably not.

This sums it up better than I could.

Pedigree may help in some situations. It probably has a larger effect in very competitive fields and very competitive programs. For many medical students, it will make no difference at all. It's impossible to tell, while applying to schools, whether you're one of the people who might be helped. Top 5 vs top 10 vs top 15 is being silly -- they are all fine, one is not really any better than another. Even if you're coming from the "worst" medical school, if you do well you can still snag a great spot in the match.

Personally, I care nothing about the ranking of your school. If your school is brand new, then we do review your application with more scrutiny, simply because we have nothing to compare it to.

If the only thing you could imagine being is a combination neurosurgeon / physicist / test pilot / rock star, then perhaps you should attend a top pedigree school (reference, anyone?)
 
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As a Chicagoan, I rolled my eyes a bit at these, particularly the latter.

Yeah I didn't really want to include Northwestern in that category for precisely that reason but couldn't find another category to put them in. They're a great school all around well-rounded but not a standout in any of the above areas.

UChicago I think does do a better job of serving the SS than it gets credit for but that's another longer and more involved discussion haha.
 
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I stay away from these threads like the plague. Thanks for tagging me and pulling me in...

IMPD wrote in one of the other threads:



This sums it up better than I could.

Pedigree may help in some situations. It probably has a larger effect in very competitive fields and very competitive programs. For many medical students, it will make no difference at all. It's impossible to tell, while applying to schools, whether you're one of the people who might be helped. Top 5 vs top 10 vs top 15 is being silly -- they are all fine, one is not really any better than another. Even if you're coming from the "worst" medical school, if you do well you can still snag a great spot in the match.

Personally, I care nothing about the ranking of your school. If your school is brand new, then we do review your application with more scrutiny, simply because we have nothing to compare it to.

If the only thing you could imagine being is a combination neurosurgeon / physicist / test pilot / rock star, then perhaps you should attend a top pedigree school (reference, anyone?)
I stay away from these threads like the plague. Thanks for tagging me and pulling me in...

IMPD wrote in one of the other threads:



This sums it up better than I could.

Pedigree may help in some situations. It probably has a larger effect in very competitive fields and very competitive programs. For many medical students, it will make no difference at all. It's impossible to tell, while applying to schools, whether you're one of the people who might be helped. Top 5 vs top 10 vs top 15 is being silly -- they are all fine, one is not really any better than another. Even if you're coming from the "worst" medical school, if you do well you can still snag a great spot in the match.

Personally, I care nothing about the ranking of your school. If your school is brand new, then we do review your application with more scrutiny, simply because we have nothing to compare it to.

If the only thing you could imagine being is a combination neurosurgeon / physicist / test pilot / rock star, then perhaps you should attend a top pedigree school (reference, anyone?)
Thanks for sharing your perspective. So it seems like rankings don’t really matter once you’re past a certain threshold (top 25 let’s say).
 
Thanks for sharing your perspective. So it seems like rankings don’t really matter once you’re past a certain threshold (top 25 let’s say).

As someone else has said above, ranking isn't completely independent of the factors that do matter. Schools who are ranked super highly in research are, surprisingly, good at research. They also tend to have amazing faculty members who are top of their field. These things do matter. But these factors aren't perfectly correlated with rank - so that you can still have amazing people at top 25 schools whereas you might just have a higher concentration at a top 5 school. It really depends on what you want to go into. If you want to do rural medicine, school A might be amazing for that because of its well known program in rural medicine. But that same school wouldn't be the logical choice if you want to go into academic medicine.
 
The only reason to gun for Harvard or Stanford or some other famous big name(Mayo, Duke, etc) is if you actually went to be a Venture Capitalist, and not a doctor..
As agreed upon by adcoms and a program director, it really doesn't matter much.

Plus I have looked at some big hospitals, and even noticed *gasp* foreign medical graduates!(I believe it was cleveland clinic and even mayo)

Heck
There are even D.O neurosurgeons...
Walter P Jacobsen, DO, Milwaukee, WI - Aurora: Surgery: Neurosurgery

I imagine these guys have to be the best of the best of the best matching into neurosurgery as a D.O..

But anyways, if you can get into neurosurgery from a D.O school an M.D school will take you anywhere.


It is up to YOU to take yourself somewhere

People always have a million excuses

I could have, if only, but, I should have...

At the end of the day if you don't match into whatever you're doing it is your fault, if you don't get into med school, it is your fault, if you fail college it is your fault(unless you have one of those teachers that curve down, where like an 80 would be an F due to high grade distribution)


So yeah as a pre-med, and I am one I would focus on getting into *a med school* before worrying about *residency*

If anyone of us even get that far, things will probably have changed significantly.
 
That is most likely not true for a multitude of different reasons. The first is that Harvard residencies, which happen to be of the best sort in almost all specialties, tend to like Harvard students. I think the stat was that around half of the end up staying at Harvard for residency. Even somebody from Stanford or UCSF or Penn is going to have a harder time matching at Harvard. The second reason is that you have to assume that wherever this student goes, he or she will be presented with the kind of opportunities that he or she would be presented with at Harvard that allows him or her to match well down the road. And this is almost certainly not true. I don't now if anybody has looked at research output for students at top med schools compared to students at lower-ranked schools but highly-ranked research schools are highly ranked for a reason. If given a similar set of opportunities as a Harvard student, a student going to any medical school can match well - I agree. But opportunities are not the same. Nor is the teaching/learning experience.

What is the difference between other schools first 2 years?

All doctors learn thr *same* stuff, they pass the same standardized test..

If you do well in the test, and meet other criteria the sky is the limit..

Harvard med students based on data have some of the highest MCAT scores, it wouldn't be shocking if they had very high STEP scores either..
So of course they match well

Whereas a school with say an average MCAT of 511, it isn't realistic to think the STEP scores will be super high.


Can it happen?? Yes
However I am a realist, the fact is that your academic progress throughout HS is often what determines how succesful you will be in college, your college success determines success in grad school, your success in med school probably determines success in residency, and so forth

The students at the very top have had an extensive track record of being successful often..

It is a no brsiner to see the same success in matching, but also not unusual to see people evaulate the path they are on, and redeem themselves.

There is a reason why we have so few brain surgeons, so few astrophysicists, etc

People often just want to get there, they want to do the minimum and just get there.
That is perfectly fine, but I wager that if these people applied themselves like the elite students do they would get to the tippy top too.

I will end this rant by saying this;


I believe that a kid selling cocaine with no home life, with gang affiliation, I bet that kid vould dedicate himself or herself and become anything, surgeon, nuclear engineer, investment banker, what have you..

I don't, and will never acvept that anybody is stupid.
Rsther I say that people are comfortable with mediocrity.

People don't have patience, that's what I would say.

I reckon @Goro would also agree considering he has probably see people shoot themselves in the foot and kill their chances because of trying to rush
 
How do private practice clinics evaluate prestige? Does it matter in getting a job at a nice clinic where you can live in a Chicago suburb? What about working at a well known clinic (ie the one just opened near the Packers training facility)

General observation, a lot of the high profile doctors (ie ones in sports like Robert Anderson) have very "normal" educational backgrounds (no t20/prestigious program from ugrad to residency). At a first glance it doesn't look like it mattered a lot for their success but maybe these guys had some alternative route to success?
 
The only reason to gun for Harvard or Stanford or some other famous big name(Mayo, Duke, etc) is if you actually went to be a Venture Capitalist, and not a doctor..
As agreed upon by adcoms and a program director, it really doesn't matter much.

Plus I have looked at some big hospitals, and even noticed *gasp* foreign medical graduates!(I believe it was cleveland clinic and even mayo)

Heck
There are even D.O neurosurgeons...
Walter P Jacobsen, DO, Milwaukee, WI - Aurora: Surgery: Neurosurgery

I imagine these guys have to be the best of the best of the best matching into neurosurgery as a D.O..

But anyways, if you can get into neurosurgery from a D.O school an M.D school will take you anywhere.


It is up to YOU to take yourself somewhere

People always have a million excuses

I could have, if only, but, I should have...

At the end of the day if you don't match into whatever you're doing it is your fault, if you don't get into med school, it is your fault, if you fail college it is your fault(unless you have one of those teachers that curve down, where like an 80 would be an F due to high grade distribution)


So yeah as a pre-med, and I am one I would focus on getting into *a med school* before worrying about *residency*

If anyone of us even get that far, things will probably have changed significantly.
Did you even read the thread ?
 
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So after his tour as an astronaut is he going to be able to just pick back up his medical training? I wonder if residencies will be worried about his medical knowledge declining, or his skills getting rusty.
I have a feeling he's gonna be just fine.
 
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So after his tour as an astronaut is he going to be able to just pick back up his medical training? I wonder if residencies will be worried about his medical knowledge declining, or his skills getting rusty.

Kind of reminds me of a dinner conversation with a UMichigan MD/PhD -> Mass General IM -> MIT postdoc -> UPenn researcher I had years ago. To paraphrase what he said: "Harvard doesn't want the best students. The best students are a dime a dozen. Harvard wants the olympic medalists, the Carnegie Hall concert pianists, the type of stuff that makes them seem interesting."
 
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Kind of reminds me of a dinner conversation with a UMichigan MD/PhD -> Mass General IM -> MIT postdoc -> UPenn researcher I had years ago. To paraphrase what he said: "Harvard doesn't want the best students. The best students are a dime a dozen. Harvard wants the olympic medalists, the Carnegie Hall concert pianists, the type of stuff that makes them seem interesting."
That mentality is overblown. I personally know current Harvard students who are not extraordinarily gifted in some way that is “mere mortals” can’t compete with.
 
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So after his tour as an astronaut is he going to be able to just pick back up his medical training? I wonder if residencies will be worried about his medical knowledge declining, or his skills getting rusty.
he was in the middle of his residency when he got tapped. I think they probably will let him finish before training.
 
Wise @HomeSkool...what are the top three anesthesiology residencies?
I'm unaware of any widely-referenced ranking system for our residency programs. We're generally more aware of the outliers: people tend to know which programs are really good or really bad, with everything else fitting into the "does a fine job training people" category.

Doximity lists the top three anesthesiology programs as UCSF, MGH, and Stanford. My response when I looked this up five minutes ago was, "Huh." And then I went right back to not caring where people trained.

Looking down Doximity's list, one of the top five programs has a departmental culture that's so malignant it's legendary within the anesthesiology community. The program for which I'm a faculty member, on the other hand, is a top 20 program known for being exceedingly resident-friendly while producing a stellar product. Between the two programs, I know which one I'd choose.

My own residency program is a military program ranked #108 on Doximity's list. Based on our day-to-day clinical practice, the training I received was just as good as anything my colleagues received at higher-ranked institutions, and my program enabled me to make several networking connections that led directly to my current the-sky-is-the-limit employment situation.

Bottom line: people put too much emphasis on prestige and name recognition. Like, way too much.

EDIT: I should mention that at my top 20 residency program, we have several DO residents and an FMG.
 
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Nortwestern Memorial is one of the ritziest hospitals I've ever set foot in.

Late to this party but for what it's worth...

While the hospital is pretty ritzy, there is a mix of patients from the very rich to the very poor (the patients admitted include people who live and work downtown as well as those who live at the residential YMCA within walking distance and the 14 Chicago Housing Authority developments within a 15 minute drive west/northwest of the hospital, plus tourists and visitors to Chicago).

The VA is a site for medicine clerkship, Stroger (formerly known as Cook County Hospital) is an option for OB-GYN clerkship, and there are at least 3 low-income/free clinics served by student volunteers.

The pre-clinical curriculum puts an emphasis on social determinants of health, health equity, cultural humility, etc.
 
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Late to this party but for what it's worth...

While the hospital is pretty ritzy, there is a mix of patients from the very rich to the very poor (the patients admitted include people who live and work downtown as well as those who live at the residential YMCA within walking distance and the 14 Chicago Housing Authority developments within a 15 minute drive west/northwest of the hospital, plus tourists and visitors to Chicago).

The VA is a site for medicine clerkship, Stroger (formerly known as Cook County Hospital) is an option for OB-GYN clerkship, and there are at least 3 low-income/free clinics served by student volunteers.

The pre-clinical curriculum puts an emphasis on social determinants of health, health equity, cultural humility, etc.
Not to mention Northwestern Memorial is among the top 20 hospitals. I don't think U-Chicago's hospital is.
 
I think it's difficult to interpret these data without being able to control for test scores, which is by far the most important factor for residency programs. Top schools recruit students with higher scores, who will probably perform better on boards as well.

Of course, top schools also offer resources and opportunities that lower ranked schools may not possess as well.
 
I think it's difficult to interpret these data without being able to control for test scores, which is by far the most important factor for residency programs. Top schools recruit students with higher scores, who will probably perform better on boards as well.

Of course, top schools also offer resources and opportunities that lower ranked schools may not possess as well.
that goes without saying, but its disingenuous to write off the effect. Especially when something like NSG where half of the seats are filled with top 40 graduates. There is also a chance where top 40 graduates have lower test scores compared to their counterparts that matched at the same place. if you have the opportunity to go top 40 , I would do so just incase a real bias does exist. But it is more than likely a structural bias in terms of access to research etc.
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that goes without saying, but its disingenuous to write off the effect. Especially when something like NSG where half of the seats are filled with top 40 graduates. There is also a chance where top 40 graduates have lower test scores compared to their counterparts that matched at the same place. if you have the opportunity to go top 40 , I would do so just incase a real bias does exist. But it is more than likely a structural bias in terms of access to research etc.
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I acknowledge that students at top schools have an advantage compared to their peers at lower ranked schools. I'm just saying that the magnitude of the differences in the data you shared cannot completely be accounted for by school rank alone since it does not control for test scores (or, for that matter, other factors that PDs value much more than school rank including clinical grades and recommendation letters).

Besides, I was more curious about when rankings should become less of a factor for deciding between schools. Common sense tells you going to a top 25 school will help you compared to a top 100 school. But what about a top 25 school compared to a top 5 school? My impression from the discussion so far is that at this stage it matters very little.
 
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