How Much Do VA Physicians Really Earn?

[Dotsero]

The thread below peaked my interest on the subject of VA docs. When you look at the VA site they list some really LOW starting salaries (some as low as $97,000 for IM). I do know that there are various other recruitment/retention bonuses that they offer as well, but what is the total compensation for a freshly minted, right out of residency physician (let's say a FP or IM). Could it really be only $140,000?

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[orbitsurgMD]

The thread below peaked my interest on the subject of VA docs. When you look at the VA site they list some really LOW starting salaries (some as low as $97,000 for IM). I do know that there are various other recruitment/retention bonuses that they offer as well, but what is the total compensation for a freshly minted, right out of residency physician (let's say a FP or IM). Could it really be only $140,000?

Last I looked, you get a civil service grade that is fairly top of the regular civil service scale (but not Senior Executive Service). On to that, there are additional bonuses. There are some benefits like a contributory retirement plan and, if you have good military time, you can buy those years into their retirement system for not too much money. For specialty surgeons (not NS or GS or Ortho) I was told several years ago the all-in figure was more like $180,000; it is probably more now.

 

[naus]

That's obscene. Federal air traffic controllers make 120,000 a year plus pension. They don't even have to go to college and work 40 hrs a week.

 

[Shoushu]

That's obscene. Federal air traffic controllers make 120,000 a year plus pension. They don't even have to go to college and work 40 hrs a week.

Yeah, CNN did a story on top jobs without degree. Air controller is right there on the Top 10 or 20 You only need be H.S. grad to train for air traffic controller, make 120,000.

Be a surgeon for VA, 150K to 200K starting, that is if you're specialized surgeon.

Internal Medicine doctor for VA, $97,000 sounds LOW. OP, have you got the link?? Makes me think why I'm interested in being work for our men in uniform, for VA or military. Why do you want to be a doctor, especially for VA or the Military (additional risks with military, not to mention I'm against invasive wars; Conscientious objector).

 

[Dotsero]

Yeah, CNN did a story on top jobs without degree. Air controller is right there on the Top 10 or 20 You only need be H.S. grad to train for air traffic controller, make 120,000.

Be a surgeon for VA, 150K to 200K starting, that is if you're specialized surgeon.

Internal Medicine doctor for VA, $97,000 sounds LOW. OP, have you got the link?? Makes me think why I'm interested in being work for our men in uniform, for VA or military. Why do you want to be a doctor, especially for VA or the Military (additional risks with military, not to mention I'm against invasive wars; Conscientious objector).

Here's the link:
http://www.jobsearch.vacareers.va.g...512,15516,45575,15669&submit1.x=0&submit1.y=0

If you look closely one of the $97,000 positions is for a cardiologist!

 

[former military]

a buddy of mine with about 8 years of experience makes 225K at the VA as a surgical subspecialist.
I make about 425K doing the same thing with less call, residents, and less ancillary support apathy.
I could make substantially more but I would need to work a lot harder and get a wallet biopsy mentality to me.

 

[naus]

a buddy of mine with about 8 years of experience makes 225K at the VA as a surgical subspecialist.
I make about 425K doing the same thing with less call, residents, and less ancillary support apathy.
I could make substantially more but I would need to work a lot harder and get a wallet biopsy mentality to me.

I guess they do get pensions, but the VA nurses and admin, ugh...

 

[AF M4]

This may provoke some angry responses about people who report that the docs/colleagues/friends they know who work at the VA are the best docs they know, etc., and having worked at a couple of VAs myself during training I will also say that there are some good ones there too.

BUT...

The good ones I knew were ones who were mainly affiliated with the university or medical school, and basically did a rotation or two a year (or sometimes even half and half) at the VA as part of their teaching responsibilities. They got paid well, 20-30K per month, as part of this arrangement. Specifically, they were taking call while on rotation with us.

The ones who were there on a more permanent basis (that I had experience with anyway) tended to have something about them that prevented them from obtaining a more lucrative position. Some were simply not very personable, some I saw do some iffy things and were held back from doing more iffy things by protocols that the VA had in place.

Considering all my FP buddies regularly get unsolicited offers from various medical groups offering 250K+ jobs for four days a week, your own patient panel and a fully staffed clinic, well, the VA is pretty much the basement of the market.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

a buddy of mine with about 8 years of experience makes 225K at the VA as a surgical subspecialist.
I make about 425K doing the same thing with less call, residents, and less ancillary support apathy.
I could make substantially more but I would need to work a lot harder and get a wallet biopsy mentality to me.

[Bolds mine.]

That is the inescapable reality of private practice: you are responsible for signing the paychecks on time and making sure all the loan payments and bills are paid before you get your pay; making sure your patients do their share is a necessary part of that equation. Anyone who can't stomach that really should look for an employed position where someone else will have to do the same.

 

[Shoushu]

[Bolds mine.]

Anyone who can't stomach that really should look for an employed position where someone else will have to do the same.

Indeed, I have bad personal finance management habits. If I do eventually become a doctor, I definitely can't stomach single-practitioner practice. I'm not a great leader or have the know-how in extensive business management.

I think a figure states around 80% of doctors are in private practice, and only 20% are employed and have monthly paychecks etc.

Which model would be nicer? Private practice but hire accountant/biller, join group practice (someone also does all finance for you?), full employee of hospital, or some other kind?

 

[VHADOC]

The thread below peaked my interest on the subject of VA docs. When you look at the VA site they list some really LOW starting salaries (some as low as $97,000 for IM). I do know that there are various other recruitment/retention bonuses that they offer as well, but what is the total compensation for a freshly minted, right out of residency physician (let's say a FP or IM). Could it really be only $140,000?

There is no easy answer. Biggest variables obviously include specialty and location. My experience is with IM, not specialists, so I can generalize a bit about medicine.

Generally starting salary at VA, out of residency, all totaled, approx 145-165k (plus retirement). VA salary is based on 3 factors:
1) base salary (e.g. GS-14/15) [[this is what is often erroneously quoted as "the" salary
2) market based pay (e.g. how difficult it is to recruit/retrain in a given location)
3) pay for performance (maximum of 7.5% of #1 plus #2, depending on your performance as monitored by the bean counters)

Example compensation
1) base salary 99k
2) market pay 51k
3) performance pay 10k
net: 160K

TSP (i.e. ~401k) matching is 5%. Thus, assuming you save at least 5% of savings into tsp, you can "add" another 8K to the above compensation (of course 8k not realized until retirement).

If you need student loan repayment, VA offers ~50K over 5 years.

Thus, out of residency you could have a total package including ~401k matching of 160-180k+ for IM (assuming board eligible/certified, and including student loan stipend that will disappear in 5 year).

Govt retirement: if you retired today from 20 years service as a VA doc you'd receive ~40-50K/year from a position outlined above.

Work schedule, generally 8 hour work days, 40 hour weeks, call/rounding with residents. Some hospitals (particularly rural) have no residents and have schedules more comparable to private practice.

Is this a lot? I'll leave that up to you do decide. Pay goes up relatively flat after.

If you are willing to take a job in a difficult to recruit area (e.g. Nowhere, AK), you might get a bonus/moving allowance etc.

Regarding VA staff/physicians vs private. This is a personal preference issue. VA certainly has historically been an employer of last resort. This is increasingly less the case, particularly around larger cities.

VA as an academic medicine venue I believe is becoming more attractive than state-level systems (insofar as federal retirement seems a safer bet than state level retirement).

 

[Dotsero]

There is no easy answer. Biggest variables obviously include specialty and location. My experience is with IM, not specialists, so I can generalize a bit about medicine.

Generally starting salary at VA, out of residency, all totaled, approx 145-165k (plus retirement). VA salary is based on 3 factors:
1) base salary (e.g. GS-14/15) [[this is what is often erroneously quoted as "the" salary
2) market based pay (e.g. how difficult it is to recruit/retrain in a given location)
3) pay for performance (maximum of 7.5% of #1 plus #2, depending on your performance as monitored by the bean counters)

Example compensation
1) base salary 99k
2) market pay 51k
3) performance pay 10k
net: 160K

TSP (i.e. ~401k) matching is 5%. Thus, assuming you save at least 5% of savings into tsp, you can "add" another 8K to the above compensation (of course 8k not realized until retirement).

If you need student loan repayment, VA offers ~50K over 5 years.

Thus, out of residency you could have a total package including ~401k matching of 160-180k+ for IM (assuming board eligible/certified, and including student loan stipend that will disappear in 5 year).

Govt retirement: if you retired today from 20 years service as a VA doc you'd receive ~40-50K/year from a position outlined above.

Work schedule, generally 8 hour work days, 40 hour weeks, call/rounding with residents. Some hospitals (particularly rural) have no residents and have schedules more comparable to private practice.

Is this a lot? I'll leave that up to you do decide. Pay goes up relatively flat after.

If you are willing to take a job in a difficult to recruit area (e.g. Nowhere, AK), you might get a bonus/moving allowance etc.

Regarding VA staff/physicians vs private. This is a personal preference issue. VA certainly has historically been an employer of last resort. This is increasingly less the case, particularly around larger cities.

VA as an academic medicine venue I believe is becoming more attractive than state-level systems (insofar as federal retirement seems a safer bet than state level retirement).

This is the best explaination I have seen of the break down for VA pay. Thanks for posting this.

 

[Mule]

The thread below peaked my interest on the subject of VA docs. When you look at the VA site they list some really LOW starting salaries (some as low as $97,000 for IM). I do know that there are various other recruitment/retention bonuses that they offer as well, but what is the total compensation for a freshly minted, right out of residency physician (let's say a FP or IM). Could it really be only $140,000?

The best reason to go VA is your patients can't sue you. I mean what better answer is there. In real life, you can be sued for just about anything pertaining to your patients. But at the VA you can kill your patient's and no one really gives a damn, plus side is they really can't sue, without a lot of hassles. Also the VA won't fire a good bad or whatever doctor. Your patient's are nothing more than lab rats who have no where to go. Your way or the hiway.

 

[VHADOC]

The best reason to go VA is your patients can't sue you. I mean what better answer is there. In real life, you can be sued for just about anything pertaining to your patients. But at the VA you can kill your patient's and no one really gives a damn, plus side is they really can't sue, without a lot of hassles. Also the VA won't fire a good bad or whatever doctor. Your patient's are nothing more than lab rats who have no where to go. Your way or the hiway.

Taken right from the recruiting pamphlet.

 

[Monty Python]

The best reason to go VA is your patients can't sue you. I mean what better answer is there. In real life, you can be sued for just about anything pertaining to your patients. But at the VA you can kill your patient's and no one really gives a damn, plus side is they really can't sue, without a lot of hassles. Also the VA won't fire a good bad or whatever doctor. Your patient's are nothing more than lab rats who have no where to go. Your way or the hiway.

Not only is this untrue (from several perspectives) but I detect some underlying hostility here.

 

[notdeadyet]

Not only is this untrue (from several perspectives) but I detect some underlying hostility here.

First post? I detect troll....

 

[Monty Python]

First post? I detect troll....

First post, me? No, I've been here since 2005 with >1K posts with extended periods of lurking. If you're referring to the "first post" as potentially coming from "Mule," then I would agree.

 

[notdeadyet]

First post, me? No, I've been here since 2005 with >1K posts with extended periods of lurking. If you're referring to the "first post" as potentially coming from "Mule," then I would agree.

Mule. Sorry for the confusion.