How much do vet school grades really matter?

[hazelmoo]

CALLING ALL CURRENT VETS:

During vet school, is passing really all that matters if you have absolutely no interest in doing a residency? I know everyone says "C's get degrees", but will that actually hinder your desirability when potential employers are looking at you? What about internships? Do any of these people ask for your GPA in school? How much do grades REALLY matter? Thank you!

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[WhtsThFrequency]

CALLING ALL CURRENT VETS:

During vet school, is passing really all that matters if you have absolutely no interest in doing a residency? I know everyone says "C's get degrees", but will that actually hinder your desirability when potential employers are looking at you? What about internships? Do any of these people ask for your GPA in school? How much do grades REALLY matter? Thank you!

No, but seriously For internships, I do believe they still matter what the with matching etc. But jobs? I've never heard of a GP job asking for your GPA.

 

[hazelmoo]

No, but seriously For internships, I do believe they still matter what the with matching etc. But jobs? I've never heard of a GP job asking for your GPA.

Specializing is boringggggg

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Specializing is boringggggg

 

[JaynaAli]

I don't know of a single person who was asked their GPA for other jobs. I was offered two GP positions back home before internship and neither cared about my GPA. There is so much more that goes into being a "good" vet than just classwork and grades. Ultimately, the schools and states set the bar for passing and as long as you graduate, pass NAVLE and pass any state licensing exam, you're good...you'll learn SO MUCH that first year or two out in practice anyway. Doing as well as possible will possibly set you up better for NAVLE and stuff moving forward, but Cs get degrees is very true.

Internship and residency are different beasts from GP in regards to grades. Internship especially. With the match system and so many people apply for internships (specially small animal rotating ones) there has to be an objective way for programs to sort through applicants. 3.5 and top 25% of your class was what we were told to strive for to be competitive. However, I've said on here several times that I was below average for the match (3.20 GPA and 53% in my class) but managed to be successful. Part of that was applying smartly to programs that were more realistic for me and I firmly believe that a lot of it was that I visited my top program for an externship. They were willing to 'overlook' my lower GPA because they'd met me and got to know me/my skills. My intern director took me with him to a panel he was on for VCA and he said that he doesn't toss out any applications because of GPA and gives them all a fair evaluation. Not all programs may do that though. I actually got way more negative comments from my internmates than any programs. One internmate actually told me that 'maybe [he] shouldn't have worked so hard if we were both in the exact same place in our careers' which was a jerk comment. He didn't consider that I spent my time working in a lab all four years and building a CV for residency instead of devoting all my time to classes. Residency probably depends on the specific specialty and program. In path it seems to matter less if you have proven interest in the field, but there were some programs that were unflexible about it.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I don't know of a single person who was asked their GPA for other jobs. I was offered two GP positions back home before internship and neither cared about my GPA. There is so much more that goes into being a "good" vet than just classwork and grades. Ultimately, the schools and states set the bar for passing and as long as you graduate, pass NAVLE and pass any state licensing exam, you're good...you'll learn SO MUCH that first year or two out in practice anyway. Doing as well as possible will possibly set you up better for NAVLE and stuff moving forward, but Cs get degrees is very true.

Internship and residency are different beasts from GP in regards to grades. Internship especially. With the match system and so many people apply for internships (specially small animal rotating ones) there has to be an objective way for programs to sort through applicants. 3.5 and top 25% of your class was what we were told to strive for to be competitive. However, I've said on here several times that I was below average for the match (3.20 GPA and 53% in my class) but managed to be successful. Part of that was applying smartly to programs that were more realistic for me and I firmly believe that a lot of it was that I visited my top program for an externship. They were willing to 'overlook' my lower GPA because they'd met me and got to know me/my skills. My intern director took me with him to a panel he was on for VCA and he said that he doesn't toss out any applications because of GPA and gives them all a fair evaluation. Not all programs may do that though. I actually got way more negative comments from my internmates than any programs. One internmate actually told me that 'maybe [he] shouldn't have worked so hard if we were both in the exact same place in our careers' which was a jerk comment. He didn't consider that I spent my time working in a lab all four years and building a CV for residency instead of devoting all my time to classes. Residency probably depends on the specific specialty and program. In path it seems to matter less if you have proven interest in the field, but there were some programs that were unflexible about it.

Lol..even this is a reach for me at this point. Good ol' Illinois with their crap GPA and curriculum design. We graduate with a whopping 9 grades total for our four years of vet school...makes it hard to make up for a crappy first year if you had one like I did. I can't tell you how many times faculty has advised us to actually explain our GPA/curriculum in our letters of intent so those of us that didn't get straight A's (or even majority of grades being A's) might have a fighting chance.

@hazelmoo, I haven't heard about people being asked GPAs for GP jobs. What I have heard is keeping a surgery log during school (especially since you've already started surgeries!) and showing the interviewer "Hey, it won't take me 1+ hours to do a routine spay, unlike some of my peers." That's proving your value to the practice right there.

Class rank matters a lot for internships/residencies, or at least that's what we're told. GPA systems are different (apparently UC Davis really inflates their GPAs, here at Illinois they definitely DON'T, for example), but class rank is a pretty objective assessment of how you did during school. Also, visiting the places you intend on applying to, whether that be via an externship or scheduling some sort of meeting. I was just given the advice to show my face within weeks of the match closing if it's possible. Gives the people a face to a name right as they're making decisions.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

CALLING ALL CURRENT VETS:

During vet school, is passing really all that matters if you have absolutely no interest in doing a residency? I know everyone says "C's get degrees", but will that actually hinder your desirability when potential employers are looking at you? What about internships? Do any of these people ask for your GPA in school? How much do grades REALLY matter? Thank you!

Employers won't ask and don't care about grades - they care about knowledge and skills. When it comes to an internship and residency, then I think they do matter (but I don't know as I never wanted to go that route).

 

[JaynaAli]

Lol..even this is a reach for me at this point. Good ol' Illinois with their crap GPA and curriculum design. We graduate with a whopping 9 grades total for our four years of vet school...makes it hard to make up for a crappy first year if you had one like I did.

I definitely had an upward trend. First year I was in the Cs get degrees, I don't want to specialize boat. I think my GPA first year was a 2.3 maybe? But I decided to get my butt in gear and break a 3.0 by graduation. Your set up does sound interesting...we had about 6 courses per semester I think. PLus we were graded on clinics so that also helps, I know not every school does that. You're probably right that there's more chance to improve in other models....but like your post said up there, these cases are where class rank plays in, I think. Both matter.

 

[Trilt]

@hazelmoo, I haven't heard about people being asked GPAs for GP jobs. What I have heard is keeping a surgery log during school (especially since you've already started surgeries!) and showing the interviewer "Hey, it won't take me 1+ hours to do a routine spay, unlike some of my peers." That's proving your value to the practice right there.

Agree with the surgery log idea. I kept a google drive spreadsheet that I updated with surgeries constantly (including stuff like the first time I did a lactating/preg/crypt neuter), and I got praise for both my organization and breadth of surgical experience at basically every interview.

However, disagree that you need to say it as "unlike some of my peers"... that is unnecessary. You can easily state your skills and strengths without putting down your colleagues.

From my resume:

• Performed >120 solo small animal surgeries, primarily sterilization; proficient in both general practice and high volume spay and neuter techniques.

And in interviews I simply said that I was quite comfortable with spay and neuter, had done several other simple surgeries with minimal supervision, and was excited to do more. Non-demeaning, truthful, and descriptive.

Back on topic: GP don't care about yo GPA. Mine was abhorrent, absolutely not on my resume, and I was never asked for it.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

So if we are maybe interested in specializing... will a really poor first semester GPA, say 2.3-2.8, hurt your chances significantly right off the bat? I've been struggling with adjusting the workload so a few of my grades right now are pretty low (*coughanatomycough*); it's gotten better the past few weeks and I think I've settled into my groove, but I fear that it's too late to do much to bring them up unless I really nail the finals. Hoping things improve next semester now that I know what to expect and I've acclimated a bit.

I recognize that this probably varies a lot by the particular field we're looking to do internship/residency in, as grades and rank are far more important in some than others, whereas some value experience and networking more, but I'm asking as a general rule of thumb. I have no doubt that I'm in the bottom half of my class right now. I accepted when I came in that I would be ok doing GP work if I found that my grades weren't going to be such that an internship/residency was feasible.

If you can bounce back, you're probably fine. I had a very rough third year grade-wise and unfortunately wasn't able to change it during fourth year since fourth year was pass/fail at my institution when I went there. I graduated in the bottom half of my class because of it. However, I made up for it in other ways - lots of networking for cultivating good LoRs, lots of externships, electives, part-time jobs related to the specialty I wanted to go into during school. A single poor semester won't kill you unless it becomes a trend, and don't forget to enhance other areas of your potential application that will help you like those. Will some places reject you right off the bat for a low-ish GPA or rank? Sure, some will - some did for me. But others take a more holistic approach, and you have lots of time anyway

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I definitely had an upward trend. First year I was in the Cs get degrees, I don't want to specialize boat. I think my GPA first year was a 2.3 maybe? But I decided to get my butt in gear and break a 3.0 by graduation. Your set up does sound interesting...we had about 6 courses per semester I think. PLus we were graded on clinics so that also helps, I know not every school does that. You're probably right that there's more chance to improve in other models....but like your post said up there, these cases are where class rank plays in, I think. Both matter.

Yep, I also need to really kick it into high gear, I'm just having a hard time getting motivated. It's also kind of scary to realize I've gotten 4/9 grades and I'm only in the first half of second year... I just hate how first year anatomy literally cancelled out my A's and B's in every other subject. Meh, nothing I can do to change the school, and I can't go back in time. I always wonder what they were thinking when they put this into place, though.

I just still don't even think class rank is that valuable all the time. In the grand scheme of things, a good chunk of the class is probably neck and neck and only within a few percentage points of each other. I was talking to a faculty member about this...and she told me that for our school, spots 30-60 are usually within just a few percentage points of each other, even though being #30 looks very different than #60. It really doesn't seem to indicate that you performed significantly better, at least in my opinion. Being in the last 20 of your class? Yeah, that implies something, as does top 20. It just seems to be a weird way to make a few percentage points matter when you're being compared to applicants from other schools with entirely different grading systems.

Agree with the surgery log idea. I kept a google drive spreadsheet that I updated with surgeries constantly (including stuff like the first time I did a lactating/preg/crypt neuter), and I got praise for both my organization and breadth of surgical experience at basically every interview.

However, disagree that you need to say it as "unlike some of my peers"... that is unnecessary. You can easily state your skills and strengths without putting down your colleagues.

From my resume:

• Performed >120 solo small animal surgeries, primarily sterilization; proficient in both general practice and high volume spay and neuter techniques.

And in interviews I simply said that I was quite comfortable with spay and neuter, had done several other simple surgeries with minimal supervision, and was excited to do more. Non-demeaning, truthful, and descriptive.

Back on topic: GP don't care about yo GPA. Mine was abhorrent, absolutely not on my resume, and I was never asked for it.

Lol it wasn't literal, Trilt....

 

[Trilt]

Yep, I also need to really kick it into high gear, I'm just having a hard time getting motivated. It's also kind of scary to realize I've gotten 4/9 grades and I'm only in the first half of second year... I just hate how first year anatomy literally cancelled out my A's and B's in every other subject. Meh, nothing I can do to change the school, and I can't go back in time. I always wonder what they were thinking when they put this into place, though.

I just still don't even think class rank is that valuable all the time. In the grand scheme of things, a good chunk of the class is probably neck and neck and only within a few percentage points of each other. I was talking to a faculty member about this...and she told me that for our school, spots 30-60 are usually within just a few percentage points of each other, even though being #30 looks very different than #60. It really doesn't seem to indicate that you performed significantly better, at least in my opinion. Being in the last 20 of your class? Yeah, that implies something, as does top 20. It just seems to be a weird way to make a few percentage points matter when you're being compared to applicants from other schools with entirely different grading systems.

Lol it wasn't literal, Trilt....

Ah, sorry. Sounded literal to sleepy Trilt and it's a peeve of mine... lots of areas in vet med where other people will have strengths and weaknesses, I try pretty hard not to put others down.

 

[that redhead]

I was asked about my surgical experience, which was pretty paltry because I thought I was going into a lab animal residency. I was never asked about my GPA and didn't put it on my resume. (I was hired alongside someone who was the valedictorian of their vet school class.)

 

[JaynaAli]

So if we are maybe interested in specializing... will a really poor first semester GPA, say 2.3-2.8, hurt your chances significantly right off the bat?.

It hurts you for sure, but not necessarily enough to make it impossible. You're going to need to show an upward trend from here on out.


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[JaynaAli]

It just seems to be a weird way to make a few percentage points matter when you're being compared to applicants from other schools with entirely different grading systems.

Right, but they have to use something. It's not a perfect system by far, but how else will places compare the apples to oranges coursework at schools? Class rank is one way to give you credit for getting those As and Bs you got even though your final grade is a C. My best friend and I had exactly the same GPA after third semester, but her class rank was several spots higher than mine because she was getting high Bs and I was getting low Bs. She'd earned that higher spot by better grades overall even if our GPAs did not necessarily reflect that.


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[LetItSnow]

FWIW, I am in agreement with the general responses you've gotten, @hazelmoo .... I think GPA can matter for internship from what I've heard, but if you are very confident you are headed out into practice after school, it won't matter.

I have never been asked for my GPA. I don't even know what my final GPA actually was - I quit checking grades midway through clinical year. I also don't remember my NAVLE score.

Honestly, none of that crap matters if you're doing the school -> clinical practice route.

Just be sure that's really your plan.

But even people with mediocre GPAs like mine (I was a pretty blah student .... more or less smack in the middle of our class rank-wise for the first few years until I quit checking) were still able to get decent internships.

 

[hazelmoo]

Thank you everyone for your responses! I'm trying to maintain a good GPA, because I'm not sure if I want to do an internship or not. I always have wanted to do one, but I highly doubt I will be able to keep my GPA above a 3.5.

I was freaking myself out because finals are next week, but I was given the opportunity to do another spay/neuter trip this weekend (where I will probably be able to do some more cat neuters). I am in a pretty good boat right now as far as grades are concerned, and I could miserably fail all my finals and still pass all my classes. I don't want to just pass, but I also really want to go on the trip and get that experience...

I was also having an internal debate because since I've already done one, I wanted to give my classmates a chance to go before I signed up... but I guess since it's right before finals no one was crazy enough to do it

What would you guys do?

 

[hazelmoo]

@hazelmoo, What I have heard is keeping a surgery log during school

Love this! I've already started a log with the volunteer stuff I've done so far. I seriously love getting out and actually doing stuff related to the field beyond the books and tests... I don't know if I would ever whip it out and say "look at all this volunteering I've done!", I'm not sure that would even matter, but the surgery log is great idea!

 

[Trilt]

Thank you everyone for your responses! I'm trying to maintain a good GPA, because I'm not sure if I want to do an internship or not. I always have wanted to do one, but I highly doubt I will be able to keep my GPA above a 3.5.

I was freaking myself out because finals are next week, but I was given the opportunity to do another spay/neuter trip this weekend (where I will probably be able to do some more cat neuters). I am in a pretty good boat right now as far as grades are concerned, and I could miserably fail all my finals and still pass all my classes. I don't want to just pass, but I also really want to go on the trip and get that experience...

I was also having an internal debate because since I've already done one, I wanted to give my classmates a chance to go before I signed up... but I guess since it's right before finals no one was crazy enough to do it

What would you guys do?

I never turned down an opportunity like that unless I had previously booked myself or was working or something... to the point that our mobile clinic person knew to email me if she had a last second cancellation. And our spay day person knew she shouldn't do that, because I'd be there if I didn't have some other time commitment, lol.

With that said, I was also definitely in the bottom twenty of my class (whatever that implies ) and absolutely understand people who prioritized studying. There will be lots of opportunities to do cat neuters, I promise.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I never turned down an opportunity like that unless I had previously booked myself or was working or something... to the point that our mobile clinic person knew to email me if she had a last second cancellation. And our spay day person knew she shouldn't do that, because I'd be there if I didn't have some other time commitment, lol.

With that said, I was also definitely in the bottom twenty of my class (whatever that implies ) and absolutely understand people who prioritized studying. There will be lots of opportunities to do cat neuters, I promise.

Sorry, didn't mean for that to sound judgmental. I actually hang out with the bottom 20 as well, last I checked.

 

[LetItSnow]

What would you guys do?

I never turned down a chance for hands-on clinical experience. I mean, a cat neuter is a trivial procedure, but you still learn how to do a decent physical exam, work with a drug protocol, manipulate some instruments, monitor the patient, etc. Depending on the context, you may also be developing relationships with clinicians from the school or practicing DVMs outside of the school, either of which are worthwhile.

 

[SummerTheLynx]

Thank you everyone for your responses! I'm trying to maintain a good GPA, because I'm not sure if I want to do an internship or not. I always have wanted to do one, but I highly doubt I will be able to keep my GPA above a 3.5.

I was freaking myself out because finals are next week, but I was given the opportunity to do another spay/neuter trip this weekend (where I will probably be able to do some more cat neuters). I am in a pretty good boat right now as far as grades are concerned, and I could miserably fail all my finals and still pass all my classes. I don't want to just pass, but I also really want to go on the trip and get that experience...

I was also having an internal debate because since I've already done one, I wanted to give my classmates a chance to go before I signed up... but I guess since it's right before finals no one was crazy enough to do it

What would you guys do?

Based on your goals, I would say to do the spay/neuter trip!

 

[rockatiel]

I would fall of over for the chance to go on an S/N trip at this point in school. Your pictures had me jealous!

 

[hazelmoo]

I would fall of over for the chance to go on an S/N trip at this point in school. Your pictures had me jealous!

I can't wait to be a second year! They get to scrub in on all the surgeries with the third years as primary surgeon, and depending on their skill/comfortability, they can do as much as they want. Thankfully I felt comfortable monitoring and pulling drugs/IV injections because of my tech work, and they even let me teach other first years who never had that experience. I really like the shelter med environment for surgery stuff so far. Super fast and high volume, but you learn lots!

 

[rockatiel]

I can't wait to be a second year! They get to scrub in on all the surgeries with the third years as primary surgeon, and depending on their skill/comfortability, they can do as much as they want. Thankfully I felt comfortable monitoring and pulling drugs/IV injections because of my tech work, and they even let me teach other first years who never had that experience. I really like the shelter med environment for surgery stuff so far. Super fast and high volume, but you learn lots!

Are you going to apply for RAVS this year? the application opened today (if you haven't been before!)

 

[missdarjeeling]

I'm thinking of doing a RAVS trip. Seems like an awesome experience!

 

[LetItSnow]

I'm thinking of doing a RAVS trip. Seems like an awesome experience!

They are useful for building skill (anesthesia, surgical, exams, etc.). And you're doing a good service at the same time, so it's win-win. I didn't quite like RAVS as much as I liked UMN's SIRVS trips (UMN-specific organization, does the same thing as RAVS, was formed after RAVS backed out of Minnesota, uses very similar protocol to RAVS). Went on one RAVS trip, went on numerous SIRVS trips (and have been back as a vet to coach vet students).

I'd recommend doing something similar.

 

[orca2011]

Definitely doable for n internship but I also agree that it's about applying smartly.

I started off vet school with like a 2.2 GPA first year and brought it up to a 3.3 or 3.4 I believe by the end of school. I was still BOTTOM 10% of my class so I was worried about my rank more than anything. However I had a ton of practical experience as I volunteered almost every Saturday at the local shelter doing cat neuter s the first year and then spaying as a 2nd year. By the time third year was halfway done, easily had over 100 sterilization procedures and then I did a few high volume spay/neuter externships. I didn't necessarily do it to pad my resume but I found that it really helped my focus and I did better in school.

I applied to probably too many programs in hindsight but some were definitely a reach (although I still managed to interview everywhere that required one except for Alameda East). Snagged my #1 choice internship, so you don't need to be top of your class but if that's the case I do think you need to have outside of class things to make up for it.

 

[rockatiel]

I'm thinking of doing a RAVS trip. Seems like an awesome experience!

If you apply, pick the ND/AZ dates!

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Definitely doable for n internship but I also agree that it's about applying smartly.

I started off vet school with like a 2.2 GPA first year and brought it up to a 3.3 or 3.4 I believe by the end of school. I was still BOTTOM 10% of my class so I was worried about my rank more than anything. However I had a ton of practical experience as I volunteered almost every Saturday at the local shelter doing cat neuter s the first year and then spaying as a 2nd year. By the time third year was halfway done, easily had over 100 sterilization procedures and then I did a few high volume spay/neuter externships. I didn't necessarily do it to pad my resume but I found that it really helped my focus and I did better in school.

I applied to probably too many programs in hindsight but some were definitely a reach (although I still managed to interview everywhere that required one except for Alameda East). Snagged my #1 choice internship, so you don't need to be top of your class but if that's the case I do think you need to have outside of class things to make up for it.

Wow, that's crazy. Did your class just have a lot high GPAs? You would think finishing with a 3.4 would be pretty good.

If you apply, pick the ND/AZ dates!

A lot of my classmates are trying to do a RAVS trip, and I think they're going for this one!

 

[LyraGardenia]

I can't wait to be a second year! They get to scrub in on all the surgeries with the third years as primary surgeon, and depending on their skill/comfortability, they can do as much as they want. Thankfully I felt comfortable monitoring and pulling drugs/IV injections because of my tech work, and they even let me teach other first years who never had that experience. I really like the shelter med environment for surgery stuff so far. Super fast and high volume, but you learn lots!

I'm so jealous! Through the shelter club here we have the opportunity to volunteer at the local shelter on Saturdays, but it sounds like it's a small shelter, so only two people get to go at a time, and it's pretty popular since it's about the only opportunity we get for surgery experience before third year (other than shadowing in the hospital). One of my friends got to go last weekend and do most of a spay and a neuter, I'm hoping I'll get to go next semester! I bet it helps that you're in a much more urban area than me, so I'm sure there are more/busier shelters.

 

[Trilt]

RAVS is super fun. Better surgery experience (one on one) than my actual surgery class, and you rotate through with a couple different surgeons, which I love, because you cannot believe how many different ways there are to spay a dog. Plus, no showers, sleeping in hallways, people from all walks of life, and you are seriously making a difference in the communities. And you see stuff like distemper and TVT and it's just... neat. I'd like to go back as a vet. The only similar program with my school is through our christian club and that's not really my jam.

 

[orca2011]

Wow, that's crazy. Did your class just have a lot high GPAs? You would think finishing with a 3.4 would be pretty good.

It might have been a 3.3 (on my phone so too hard to figure that out) but I did know people with 4.0s going into clinical year.

 

[Caiter92]

If you apply, pick the ND/AZ dates!

I've been going back and forth on applying for a trip, and then June AZ dates are what I'd want. Maybe I'll see you there

 

[pinkpuppy9]

It might have been a 3.3 (on my phone so too hard to figure that out) but I did know people with 4.0s going into clinical year.

 

[katashark]

How about grades for going into research sorts of things?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

How about grades for going into research sorts of things?

Like straight from a DVM into research, or into a PhD program?

 

[hazelmoo]

Are you going to apply for RAVS this year? the application opened today (if you haven't been before!)

I need to look into that!

 

[missdarjeeling]

They are useful for building skill (anesthesia, surgical, exams, etc.). And you're doing a good service at the same time, so it's win-win. I didn't quite like RAVS as much as I liked UMN's SIRVS trips (UMN-specific organization, does the same thing as RAVS, was formed after RAVS backed out of Minnesota, uses very similar protocol to RAVS). Went on one RAVS trip, went on numerous SIRVS trips (and have been back as a vet to coach vet students).

I'd recommend doing something similar.

Trying to decide whether to apply for a 1 week trip or a 2 week trip. Do you think one or the other is better for first timers without much prior surgery experience? I'd like to get as much out of it as possible, but the extra cost is a bit of a concern.

 

[LetItSnow]

Trying to decide whether to apply for a 1 week trip or a 2 week trip. Do you think one or the other is better for first timers without much prior surgery experience? I'd like to get as much out of it as possible, but the extra cost is a bit of a concern.

I think it is as straightforward a decision as it seems - 1 week is good, 2 is twice as much experience. One nice thing about doing an extended trip is that you really do get into a swing of things, and your anesthesia and surgery skills will improve more than doing 2 1-week trips.

Personally, I think the anesthesia skill that's developed is more important than the surgical skill. Surgical skill is just soft-tissue handling. Whether you do it slow or fast matters, but isn't critical, and is something you can develop slowly over time. As long as you can tie a good knot .... that's the most important issue. Patients don't usually die because of something you did in surgery, even though that's where people get all nervous. They more often die because of something anesthetic. I mean sure, I get occasional spays in as a transfer that's bleeding from a uterine stump, but .... those are rare compared to anesthetic complications. From my perspective it's more important a student be rock solid with anesthesia than their surgical skill.

But everyone always wants to focus on surgery.

Know that if you go on RAVS they will test your suturing and ligating skill prior to letting you do surgery. It's a straightforward test (assuming it's the same as when I went), but make sure you practice so you can do what they want within the time allowed. Not something you want to ignore until they day-of and then try to practice for 5 minutes, unless you are already pretty good with suture. It was something simple like tying a ligation in 30 seconds and suturing 3 inches simple continuous in ... some amount of time. Really straightforward stuff, but they want you to be prepared, basically.

 

[rockatiel]

Trying to decide whether to apply for a 1 week trip or a 2 week trip. Do you think one or the other is better for first timers without much prior surgery experience? I'd like to get as much out of it as possible, but the extra cost is a bit of a concern.

There's quite a few people at my school who went this past year. I asked them the same question and they said no, don't worry if you don't have experience. they have all the resources for you to learn sutures and things. at the start of the trip there's a practical and if you pass, you can start doing surgeries. for a two week trip, if you don't pass, you'll probably get to do surgeries the next week as they let you take the practical two times.

Also, someone I talked to who went to WA for two weeks said that they only spent $500 to go, since food and lodging are provided. I think for the experience you get, that's a heck of a deal.

 

[missdarjeeling]

I think it is as straightforward a decision as it seems - 1 week is good, 2 is twice as much experience. One nice thing about doing an extended trip is that you really do get into a swing of things, and your anesthesia and surgery skills will improve more than doing 2 1-week trips.

Personally, I think the anesthesia skill that's developed is more important than the surgical skill. Surgical skill is just soft-tissue handling. Whether you do it slow or fast matters, but isn't critical, and is something you can develop slowly over time. As long as you can tie a good knot .... that's the most important issue. Patients don't usually die because of something you did in surgery, even though that's where people get all nervous. They more often die because of something anesthetic. I mean sure, I get occasional spays in as a transfer that's bleeding from a uterine stump, but .... those are rare compared to anesthetic complications. From my perspective it's more important a student be rock solid with anesthesia than their surgical skill.

But everyone always wants to focus on surgery.

I've never heard anyone frame it that way. Very interesting, and it makes a lot of sense.

Know that if you go on RAVS they will test your suturing and ligating skill prior to letting you do surgery. It's a straightforward test (assuming it's the same as when I went), but make sure you practice so you can do what they want within the time allowed. Not something you want to ignore until they day-of and then try to practice for 5 minutes, unless you are already pretty good with suture. It was something simple like tying a ligation in 30 seconds and suturing 3 inches simple continuous in ... some amount of time. Really straightforward stuff, but they want you to be prepared, basically.

Yeah, the students who did an info talk for us briefly touched on this. They also help us get ready ahead of time. And I'm planning on finishing up the background work for the shelter surgery program we have where they do a skills lab and get us on track to getting cat neuter certified. I have a little bit of experience with suturing (from my old coworker and I playing with suture on garbage tissue and drapes after a surgery instead of cleaning up the OR), so maybe that'll help a tiny bit.

@rockatiel , you're right about the cost not being much in the grand scheme of things. I guess my other worry is that I'd be saddling my husband with the dog and all 3 cats for the length of the trip, so if I'm gone too long, there's a non-negligible chance that I'll come home to either a husband and a dog with a "What cats? We never had any cats, I swear!" or 4 hungry animals and a chewed up, half-eaten corpse of a husband in the basement or 4 hungry animals and no husband and a "Why did you think I could handle this? Gone to Hawaii." note tacked to the fridge...

 

[hygebeorht]

During vet school, is passing really all that matters if you have absolutely no interest in doing a residency? I know everyone says "C's get degrees", but will that actually hinder your desirability when potential employers are looking at you? What about internships? Do any of these people ask for your GPA in school? How much do grades REALLY matter? Thank you!

I'd be wary of closing doors - lots of people change their minds during vet school and choose to do something different than what they came in for. Focus on the learning and grades should follow well enough. If you're dead-set on working right out of school, it may be more advantageous to make yourself known. Go to state cons, national cons, and meet potential employers. Shake hands with people and show your motivation. This is also where I put a shout-out to the NC State CVM for hiring a career professional, she has helped us all so much as we go through the job-search process!

 

[Shepherd Lover]

There's quite a few people at my school who went this past year. I asked them the same question and they said no, don't worry if you don't have experience. they have all the resources for you to learn sutures and things. at the start of the trip there's a practical and if you pass, you can start doing surgeries. for a two week trip, if you don't pass, you'll probably get to do surgeries the next week as they let you take the practical two times.

Also, someone I talked to who went to WA for two weeks said that they only spent $500 to go, since food and lodging are provided. I think for the experience you get, that's a heck of a deal.

Wow that's pretty impressive. You need to raise $425 to attend the 2 week trips and you're responsible for costs associated with traveling to the clinic and you need to pay for food/lodging during the weekend in the middle of the trip. I think the RAVS trips are AWESOME and a great deal but I wouldn't have the expectation that you'll only spend $500. My friend and I drove to Turtle Mountain/Cheyenne River, which cut our costs significantly, and I believe with the cost of the trip I spent $800 - $1000.


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[rockatiel]

Wow that's pretty impressive. You need to raise $425 to attend the 2 week trips and you're responsible for costs associated with traveling to the clinic and you need to pay for food/lodging during the weekend in the middle of the trip. I think the RAVS trips are AWESOME and a great deal but I wouldn't have the expectation that you'll only spend $500. My friend and I drove to Turtle Mountain/Cheyenne River, which cut our costs significantly, and I believe with the cost of the trip I spent $800 - $1000.


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I did kind of realize this after looking at plane tickets for a trip I plan to take over spring break. I haven't found anything that was $500 round trip... also, the second years told me that food was paid for the entire time. Oh boy.

Those are the ND sites, correct? how close were you?

 

[Shepherd Lover]

I did kind of realize this after looking at plane tickets for a trip I plan to take over spring break. I haven't found anything that was $500 round trip... also, the second years told me that food was paid for the entire time. Oh boy.

Those are the ND sites, correct? how close were you?

When we looked at plane tickets last year they were ~200-300 for Chicago-> Bismarck roundtrip. You also need to consider that you have to provide your own transportation to the reservation and between reservations if your trip involves multiple reservations. If possible I would definitely look to travel with others to split the cost of a rental car and gas.

The second years you're referencing are correct in that the meals and lodging are provided while you're on the reservation but during our trip (and I assume all 2 week trips are like this) you need to provide your own food and lodging during the weekend between the two weeks.

I'm not saying all of this to scare you - just to give you a good idea of what to expect! The trip is still extremely reasonably priced and you get A LOT of GREAT experience. Also you never know how generous friends and family will be! I actually covered the cost of my trip completely with donations (which I was nervous about because I had never done that kind of thing before).

My trip was a ND/SD trip. Turtle Mountain is in North Dakota near Canada and Cheyenne River is in SD. I absolutely loved my trip and the reservations I attended. The techs and RAVS staff told us that our trip is one of the "lighter" trips and we didn't see as many of the unusual disease that the other trips see. We also had extremely nice living conditions. Some trips involve sleeping on gym floors but we had bunks for both weeks. Please feel free to reach out if you have any more questions! I noticed in another thread you applied to AZ and I also applied there so we might be seeing each other this summer!


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[rockatiel]

When we looked at plane tickets last year they were ~200-300 for Chicago-> Bismarck roundtrip. You also need to consider that you have to provide your own transportation to the reservation and between reservations if your trip involves multiple reservations. If possible I would definitely look to travel with others to split the cost of a rental car and gas.

The second years you're referencing are correct in that the meals and lodging are provided while you're on the reservation but during our trip (and I assume all 2 week trips are like this) you need to provide your own food and lodging during the weekend between the two weeks.

I'm not saying all of this to scare you - just to give you a good idea of what to expect! The trip is still extremely reasonably priced and you get A LOT of GREAT experience. Also you never know how generous friends and family will be! I actually covered the cost of my trip completely with donations (which I was nervous about because I had never done that kind of thing before).

My trip was a ND/SD trip. Turtle Mountain is in North Dakota near Canada and Cheyenne River is in SD. I absolutely loved my trip and the reservations I attended. The techs and RAVS staff told us that our trip is one of the "lighter" trips and we didn't see as many of the unusual disease that the other trips see. We also had extremely nice living conditions. Some trips involve sleeping on gym floors but we had bunks for both weeks. Please feel free to reach out if you have any more questions! I noticed in another thread you applied to AZ and I also applied there so we might be seeing each other this summer!


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You're not scaring me at all! You are being super helpful I think there were quite a few in my class who were interested so hopefully we can arrange something!

 

[rockatiel]

I guess to take the original topic of this thread a tad further, did any of you go through school just not concerned with making A's? And is that an okay thing to do? I feel like everyone around me is always discussing what they need to keep a 90% and disputing points with professors and I am just as happy with my B and C grades (and the occasional sub 95 A, lol). The only speciality I'm interested in right now is Shelter, and every person I have talked to at school says to go straight into practice for that and not worry about residencies/internships. I just feel like I'm missing something key if I'm not pushing myself as hard as others for those A's.

 

[LetItSnow]

I guess to take the original topic of this thread a tad further, did any of you go through school just not concerned with making A's? And is that an okay thing to do? I feel like everyone around me is always discussing what they need to keep a 90% and disputing points with professors and I am just as happy with my B and C grades (and the occasional sub 95 A, lol). The only speciality I'm interested in right now is Shelter, and every person I have talked to at school says to go straight into practice for that and not worry about residencies/internships. I just feel like I'm missing something key if I'm not pushing myself as hard as others for those A's.

So this whole grades/residency thing is interesting. I've historically advised people that grades might matter for residency.

I've had at least two boarded surgeons say "no" and I think I recall @WhtsThFrequency saying "not so much". We were just chatting about it at work last week and one of the boarded surgeons (recently boarded, so should be current) looked at me and said 'hell no, I was barely a B student in vet school'. She did one internship and then her surgery residency.

So I guess the people that ought to know are saying you can do post-grad work just fine with average grades. As usual, I'd suspect it's all about making good contacts and having the right people speaking for you.....

I still maintain that grades don't matter <at all> for the rest of us; the only exception might be scholarships while in school. But for after school? No way.

I wanted A's my first semester of vet school because I had straight A's in my pre-reqs and whatnot. Once I got a couple B's and a C I was like "Ok, that didn't hurt as much as I thought" and I quit caring. By third year, I REALLY didn't care, and I hardly even checked my grades at all. Tests would sit for a week in my box because I forgot we even had taken it. It made third year way more fun to not care.

That said, I got lower grades because I was spending time working in the ICU - which directly helped lead to my current job - and doing spay/neuter trips even if there was a test the day I got back, and stuff like that. Our school does a monthly urban wellness clinic - I was there every month for my first three years of school when other people were saying "well, I'm skipping this one because of the clin path final tomorrow". So I accepted lower grades in favor of practical experience, and I have not regretted that decision one single bit.

 

[Pugsforlove2014]

I've never heard of a job applicant being asked that and I know a few that got great jobs with dismal grades.
Personally, I'm trying to keep my grades up so I can try to get a residency in oncology but I also have to consider moving forward with my life as well.