How much is too much?

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GypsyHummus

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With rising costs of medical school, how much is too much? When is the investment in the medical education is not worth the money you put into it? It can be for a particular school or just medicine in general.

For me, I would say that if my medical education costs more that 500K in loans with interest over 4 years, I would seriously consider not going to said school.I dont have a family I need to take care of, so my cost of living isnt too high. I've estimated my total costs of going to a private school at around 300k and public at my state at 230k. (Accounting for interest)

While this isnt too big of a gap, I look at schools like CCOM and see 52K without including eating or sleeping anywhere and estimate it to be about 72k a year. While over 4 years this is 288K, the kicker is interest.

what do u guys think?
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MSUCOM OOS is too much. As is WVSOM. The MWUs are pushing it.
 
as1212559 said:
MSUCOM OOS is too much. As is WVSOM. The MWUs are pushing it.
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That's what I thought too. I didn't finish my secondary to MSU because of the OOS tuition, and I could see no good reason for AZCOM to cost as much as it does.
Funny thing is, now that I'm doing the HPSP I could have done MSU without financial burden. Lol
 
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dudeliness said:
That's what I thought too. I didn't finish my secondary to MSU because of the OOS tuition, and I could see no good reason for AZCOM to cost as much as it does.
Funny thing is, now that I'm doing the HPSP I could have done MSU without financial burden. Lol
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Have you decided on HPSP due to that med school tuition and fees would be too much to pay back, or that you've had a heart on the army life?

I've been quiet ambivalent to go for HPSP or not, although I've had a military background as an ex-officer. Currently, I've decided to have a "big" financial obligation in the form of student loans instead of a time obligation to pay back to the army. I think civil life is more suitable for me...
 
So how much are you planing on taking out in loans, no interest?
 
How much is too much?

That depends entirely on the person involved, and how much they think their lifestyle is going to cost them after residency.

Me personally, as long as I can pay my bills and live a modest lifestyle then I'm good.
 
DrBumblebee said:
PCOM-GA must be around $42,000. So, yes, it's about that range nowadays.
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$42k and $50k are a big range as far as tuition goes. $42k is on the very bottom end of private schools.


SLC said:
How much is too much?

That depends entirely on the person involved, and how much they think their lifestyle is going to cost them after residency.

Me personally, as long as I can pay my bills and live a modest lifestyle then I'm good.
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:thumbup:
 
Hmm I misremembered wvsoms oos tuition as being 60k. Still high.
 
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My state school's tuition is the same as LECOM lol.
 
Lets all just move to Texas and wait a year to become in-state then apply to TCOM. Lol.

What concerns me more than the actual tuition is the rate at which it is rising. I keep reading about economists predicting that the student loan bubble will burst like mortgages did. I then have the horrifying thought: what if that were to happen in the middle of school, and it suddenly becomes next to impossible to get the loans necessary to cover the cost of attendance?

I mean, obviously, it's not the doctors who will not be able to pay off their student loan debt. Most of what I have read references unemployed recent college grads with unusable degrees. I just hope that the fed and the big lenders draw that distinction.
 
NurWollen said:
Lets all just move to Texas and wait a year to become in-state then apply to TCOM. Lol.

What concerns me more than the actual tuition is the rate at which it is rising. I keep reading about economists predicting that the student loan bubble will burst like mortgages did. I then have the horrifying thought: what if that were to happen in the middle of school, and it suddenly becomes next to impossible to get the loans necessary to cover the cost of attendance?

I mean, obviously, it's not the doctors who will not be able to pay off their student loan debt. Most of what I have read references unemployed recent college grads with unusable degrees. I just hope that the fed and the big lenders draw that distinction.
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I think it is not the same because an individual, or at least to my knowledge, cannot devlare bankruptcy on student loans.
 
NurWollen said:
Lets all just move to Texas and wait a year to become in-state then apply to TCOM. Lol.
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Texas residence requies 2 years (physical presence, business or real estate ownership).
 
GypsyHummus said:
I think it is not the same because an individual, or at least to my knowledge, cannot devlare bankruptcy on student loans.
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No, but they can default, in which the banks still don't get their money. And yes, I know the federal government lends money for student loans; but if nobody can pay, who's to say the government won't eliminate the grad plus and stafford loan programs?
 
NurWollen said:
Lets all just move to Texas and wait a year to become in-state then apply to TCOM. Lol.

What concerns me more than the actual tuition is the rate at which it is rising. I keep reading about economists predicting that the student loan bubble will burst like mortgages did. I then have the horrifying thought: what if that were to happen in the middle of school, and it suddenly becomes next to impossible to get the loans necessary to cover the cost of attendance?

I mean, obviously, it's not the doctors who will not be able to pay off their student loan debt. Most of what I have read references unemployed recent college grads with unusable degrees. I just hope that the fed and the big lenders draw that distinction.
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Well the situation with the mortgages was that loans were being given to people who were VERY likely to default. I believe people with medical degrees are FAR less likely to default then your low middle class house buyer.

Not to dismiss your concern, I do agree, but just trying to make you feel a bit safer haha.
 
For me, it was not even about the money (I go to AZCOM lol MWU tuition). I got a degree in chemistry, and started looking for a job within that field immediately after graduation. yea some places would offer me $16/hr starting pay for entry-level new grad. Da fuq? $16/hr? I can make $15/hr doing absolutely nothing with some temp agency. I then realized that in order to grow within that field, it would mean getting a masters or a PhD in something I totally hate. If you're into business or law or something, then maybe those fields are a better investment of your time. I'm not interested in those.

Medical education is an investment in yourself. Even if I'm not making the big benjamins, at least I know this is where I belong and what I want to do. 500k is a lot of money. But when you are making 200k+ from ages ~30-70, it's chump change in the long haul. Just don't be stupid with your money.
 
DrWily said:
For me, it was not even about the money (I go to AZCOM lol MWU tuition). I got a degree in chemistry, and started looking for a job within that field immediately after graduation. yea some places would offer me $16/hr starting pay for entry-level new grad. Da fuq? $16/hr? I can make $15/hr doing absolutely nothing with some temp agency. I then realized that in order to grow within that field, it would mean getting a masters or a PhD in something I totally hate. If you're into business or law or something, then maybe those fields are a better investment of your time. I'm not interested in those.

Medical education is an investment in yourself. Even if I'm not making the big benjamins, at least I know this is where I belong and what I want to do. 500k is a lot of money. But when you are making 200k+ from ages ~30-70, it's chump change in the long haul. Just don't be stupid with your money.
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But 200K is more like 130 after Obama comes to take ur $$.

At that Point I'm like ok, so I'll just live on 30K a year and throw 100K at the monster loan for six years. That should pay it off. But Then you have car payments, and food, and a wifey, and kids. Suddenly wife wants a half million dollar house because ur a doctor and doctors make lots of $$.

I guess the good news is that when you finally pay off the debt, your income would also grow and instead of takeing home 130K, you take home 200K. Is that a reasonable money jump for someone in primary care, 130K from starting to 200K after 5 years?
 
GypsyHummus said:
But 200K is more like 130 after Obama comes to take ur $$.

At that Point I'm like ok, so I'll just live on 30K a year and throw 100K at the monster loan for six years. That should pay it off. But Then you have car payments, and food, and a wifey, and kids. Suddenly wife wants a half million dollar house because ur a doctor and doctors make lots of $$.

I guess the good news is that when you finally pay off the debt, your income would also grow and instead of takeing home 130K, you take home 200K. Is that a reasonable money jump for someone in primary care, 130K from starting to 200K after 5 years?
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I'm interested in Anesthesia soooo 200k was post-uncle sam considering they get paid 330-350kish.

Buy a used car cash, something reliable that will get from point A to point B. Eat healthy (don't skimp here) but budget wisely. Wife should work and make her own money. If wife wants a 500k house, she can buy it, or wait until you've paid down some loans and are living comfortably. This is where the "don't be stupid with your money" bit comes in. If you continue to live like a resident after becoming an attending, you will have no problems. Be frugal for an additional couple of years. Most people can't do this once they hit the jackpot.

There are lots of "Primary Care" specialties. If we're talking IM and FP, they start around 180kish pre-tax depending on where you live. There is potential for growth, but I doubt 130->200k in 5 years.
 
My biggest concern is mostly that physician pay may not be as high by the time I'm working and earning 7-10 years from now.
 
felix2929 said:
My biggest concern is mostly that physician pay may not be as high by the time I'm working and earning 7-10 years from now.
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Which is probably the reason why people shouldn't be going into medicine for the money.

Do what you love/interested in. The money will come.
 
DrWily said:
Which is probably the reason why people shouldn't be going into medicine for the money.

Do what you love/interested in. The money will come.
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I agree it is dumb at this point to go into medicine for the money but if you are borrowing 250,000 to do it then you should be concerned about how you are going to pay it back. I don't see how physician reimbursement can do anything but go down with the current healthcare legislation going into effect.
 
felix2929 said:
I agree it is dumb at this point to go into medicine for the money but if you are borrowing 250,000 to do it then you should be concerned about how you are going to pay it back. I don't see how physician reimbursement can do anything but go down with the current healthcare legislation going into effect.
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With the national average income for a household of two adults at ~$50k, and the average physician pay 3-10x above that for a single person... even with reimbursement cuts, I'm sure you'll survive. Somehow.
 
felix2929 said:
I agree it is dumb at this point to go into medicine for the money but if you are borrowing 250,000 to do it then you should be concerned about how you are going to pay it back. I don't see how physician reimbursement can do anything but go down with the current healthcare legislation going into effect.
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I've thought the same thing but then realized that if reimbursement goes down then you can still charge cash as long as you choose your specialty carefully. Folks are always going to need a doctor and the supply is limited.
 
Ugh, thinking of the debt to go to school still freaks me out everyday. Its one heck of a motivator to do well in med school though!
 
Ost3oclast said:
Ugh, thinking of the debt to go to school still freaks me out everyday. Its one heck of a motivator to do well in med school though!
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I think it was cabin builder that said this before or at least something similar.

So take home pay for a physician is roughly 10-20k PER MONTH. Student loans are like 2-2.5k.

Sorry you can't enjoy all 10-20k you've earned. You can only enjoy 8-17.5k of it. I know, I know. That yacht will have to wait.
 
Yea well most of those average people don't start their career a quarter million dollars in debt (not to mention interest) Not being concerned about the debt is frivolous at best. I think the OPs concerns are realistic. Also if you are making 50,000 for a family of 4 you most likely qualify for so many tax deductions that you are probably paying about 5% income tax after your return. Where as a physician making 150,000 will be paying 25% most likely. According to the student loan calculator my payments on 250,000 borrowed at 6.8% will be 2875.00 a month. It is a ton of money, especially when you are just starting out in your career. Seems reasonable to worry about it.
 
felix2929 said:
Yea well most of those average people don't start their career a quarter million dollars in debt (not to mention interest) Not being concerned about the debt is frivolous at best. I think the OPs concerns are realistic. Also if you are making 50,000 for a family of 4 you most likely qualify for so many tax deductions that you are probably paying about 5% income tax after your return. Where as a physician making 150,000 will be paying 25% most likely. According to the student loan calculator my payments on 250,000 borrowed at 6.8% will be 2875.00 a month. It is a ton of money, especially when you are just starting out in your career. Seems reasonable to worry about it.
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Most people don't have the earnings potential of a physician (ranges from 150k->???? depending on specialty) Many students take on the debt and come out the other side alive. If it's too much for anyone to handle, then they should seriously reconsider their career choice and look for alternatives. But it's not all doom and gloom like you are all making it out to be. You will be fine, just as I will be fine, just as the next student doctor will be fine. This thread was about medical education being "worth" the pricetag. If your heart is into it, then it is indeed "worth" it. The money will come, the job security is there, and the demand will never go down. Is it worth sacrificing 10 yrs of your life and accumulating $250k debt? Only you can decide it. But you will not be in the poor house.
 
DrWily said:
Most people don't have the earnings potential of a physician (ranges from 150k->???? depending on specialty) Many students take on the debt and come out the other side alive. If it's too much for anyone to handle, then they should seriously reconsider their career choice and look for alternatives. But it's not all doom and gloom like you are all making it out to be. You will be fine, just as I will be fine, just as the next student doctor will be fine. This thread was about medical education being "worth" the pricetag. If your heart is into it, then it is indeed "worth" it. The money will come, the job security is there, and the demand will never go down. Is it worth sacrificing 10 yrs of your life and accumulating $250k debt? Only you can decide it. But you will not be in the poor house.
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250K for med school isnt too bad. Its when it balloons to 500K with interest and your just a IM doc making 130k. Thats what I am trying to rap my head around.
 
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DrWily said:
Most people don't have the earnings potential of a physician (ranges from 150k->???? depending on specialty) Many students take on the debt and come out the other side alive. If it's too much for anyone to handle, then they should seriously reconsider their career choice and look for alternatives. But it's not all doom and gloom like you are all making it out to be. You will be fine, just as I will be fine, just as the next student doctor will be fine. This thread was about medical education being "worth" the pricetag. If your heart is into it, then it is indeed "worth" it. The money will come, the job security is there, and the demand will never go down. Is it worth sacrificing 10 yrs of your life and accumulating $250k debt? Only you can decide it. But you will not be in the poor house.
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I wasn't trying to be doom and gloom (it just comes naturally to me though) but I guess my point is just that right now there is less job security, or less income security than for the previous generation of physicians. Also with the addition of more DO schools and more seats there is less security than before.
And yea, 500k is a ton. Why are you looking at so much debt?
 
GypsyHummus said:
250K for med school isnt too bad. Its when it balloons to 500K with interest and your just a IM doc making 130k. Thats what I am trying to rap my head around.
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The low end of family docs may make close to 130k but IM makes 180-220k.
 
GypsyHummus said:
250K for med school isnt too bad. Its when it balloons to 500K with interest and your just a IM doc making 130k. Thats what I am trying to rap my head around.
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Its still payable and you can live comfortably. You just can't have the sports car and nice home you've always wanted on your salary alone.

People always forget that they are (likely) to have a spouse which will add to your income. Even an addition of 50k pre tax will about about 180k total per family pre tax and you fall below the minimum 250k per couple that are considered well off in obama's term.

And if you decide to stay alone, 130k a year with 500k debt will still leave you A LOT to spend on yourself.

Just as said before, live like a resident for a few years (not college student though, because ramen sucks)
 
GypsyHummus said:
250K for med school isnt too bad. Its when it balloons to 500K with interest and your just a IM doc making 130k. Thats what I am trying to rap my head around.
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IM docs make 130k because they don't want to work. Most make a lot more than 130k. Also, even at 130k, 500k in debt is manageable.
 
The IM hospitalist I shadowed made like 300k a year. He been working for about 5 or 6 years only.

Sent from my Galaxy S2
 
Ravizzle said:
The IM hospitalist I shadowed made like 300k a year. He been working for about 5 or 6 years only.

Sent from my Galaxy S2
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I don't plan on doing IM, but if I have to, I will go this route and work in a hospital for a while. I wouldn't open up my own practice until all the debt is paid off.

Being married will help too because every little bit you can both hit those loans to pay it down will bring you that much closer to being debt free.
 
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the new repayment program started in December of last year, PAYE.

With this program, your monthly payment shouldn't exceed 10% of your annual ADJUSTED income divided by 12.

For someone earning 150K/year, for example, the monthly payment wouldn't exceed $1100.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the new repayment program started in December of last year, PAYE.

With this program, your monthly payment shouldn't exceed 10% of your annual ADJUSTED income divided by 12.

For someone earning 150K/year, for example, the monthly payment wouldn't exceed $1100.
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You'd be making payments forever and letting interest unnecessarily accrue if you only paid $1100 per month on a $150k salary though.
 
MedPR said:
You'd be making payments forever and letting interest unnecessarily accrue if you only paid $1100 per month on a $150k salary though.
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You're repayment term is 20 years including residency. After that, the remaining balance (pretty much the entire principle amount plus interests) will be forgiven and taxed (only the principle). For those who are left with 300k unpaid principle balance, they will end up paying 100-150K in taxes. Still not a bad deal, in my opinion. One could make the calculated monthly payment and deposit an additional 5000k/year in a savings account, so by the time your balloon payment is due (the tax on the forgiven amount), you have a large some of money saved up.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/pay-as-you-earn
 
MedPR said:
You'd be making payments forever and letting interest unnecessarily accrue if you only paid $1100 per month on a $150k salary though.
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Yes but if you can make more than the monthly payment, just pay as much as you can. It does give breathing room for a new toy, vacation, etc., without worrying about being late on payments.
It's a good idea if you don't land a decent paying job right out of residency.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
You're repayment term is 20 years including residency. After that, the remaining balance (pretty much the entire principle amount plus interests) will be forgiven and taxed (only the principle). For those who are left with 300k unpaid principle balance, they will end up paying 100-150K in taxes. Still not a bad deal, in my opinion. One could make the calculated monthly payment and deposit an additional 5000k/year in a savings account, so by the time your balloon payment is due (the tax on the forgiven amount), you have a large some of money saved up.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/pay-as-you-earn
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How long do you pay taxes on whatever is left over after 20 years? Do you have to pay a lump sum?
 
dudeliness said:
That's what I thought too. I didn't finish my secondary to MSU because of the OOS tuition, and I could see no good reason for AZCOM to cost as much as it does.
Funny thing is, now that I'm doing the HPSP I could have done MSU without financial burden. Lol
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WHOA! You're doing HPSP?????

I have thought about it so much but I just can't bring myself to commit to the military.
 
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