How much money do you make and transparent salary/job offer thread?

[singasongofjoy]

IIRC, my lowest year ever for psychology has been around $220k-250k net. My highest has been multiples of that.

The reason I am cagey about this stuff: I don’t want someone to plan on being an outlier.

I forget - what's the gist of your setting and focus?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Sanman]

Such a good point, thank you! Do you mind sharing what your area of work is?

Geropsychology, I am referring to nursing home/ALF work when I quote that 80-85k range. Plenty of jobs out there being advertised. That is for a w-2 job with some sort of health insurance and a 401k plan. This means accepting medicare, medicaid, and commercial insurances. Productivity targets will vary, but you will be busy. If you are a contractor, $100-125K is doable is you like to work.

 

[JeyRo]

Approximately 175K with federal benefits as a GS-13 step 9.

 

[Sanman]

Approximately 175K with federal benefits as a GS-13 step 9.

I didn't know GS-13 was going that high anywhere salarywise. Or are you talking loan repayment and other bennies included?

 

[JeyRo]

I didn't know GS-13 was going that high anywhere salarywise. Or are you talking loan repayment and other bennies included?

No that's just salary. Our service chief applied for us all to get some sort of "special pay rate" thing awhile back. The top of the GS-13 pay scale for us as essentially become flattened out

 

[WisNeuro]

No that's just salary. Our service chief applied for us all to get some sort of "special pay rate" thing awhile back. The top of the GS-13 pay scale for us as essentially become flattened out

That's a crazy high special pay rate. Where I did fellowship was one of the higher locality adjustments in the nation and 13-9 there is 137k

 

[forensic13]

Internship- 36K
Postdoc- 48K
First licensed job- 105K (forensic evaluator role for a state agency)

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

These numbers are also skewed. If we went by SDN polls, it would seem 50% of psychologists work in neuro/forensic/consulting. That said, I think the institutional salaries are helpful more than the PP stuff. I think if the numbers were updated for today, the average salary would be about $5-10k higher than the salary survey from 2015. On here, we lack a lot the lower paying settings/areas to bring the average down. For my area of work, I know that $80-85k is the average starting salary going up to low six figures. This is for thousands of folks working at multiple companies since it is a fairly standard offer. I think something in the $100-150k range is pretty good (higher end) for a salaried position in our field for an individual practitioner.

That is a very fair point. I think one area not highlighted on SDN that much are the 1099 jobs w. low reimbursement as a contractor. Also, the uni counseling $'s are pretty rare on here....but those jobs are often $50k-$65k, which for 9mon is still really low.

 

[Cantab109]

That's a crazy high special pay rate. Where I did fellowship was one of the higher locality adjustments in the nation and 13-9 there is 137k

Agreed, our current GS13-9, pays $124,413. I am very impressed with that special pay rate!

 

[hum1]

That sounds like pretty low compensation per session especially if you are not getting benefits. I guess it depends on what the payer mix is and also how much demand is in the area and what your ability to generate business is, but why not open your own practice if they aren’t going to be generous with the split?

Yes, I agree. Well, it is a great clinic that provides great care for pts and the staff is very competent and passionate about their work. Perhaps one day I will open up my own private practice. I am new to the area so I am still trying to understand how things work here.

I am curious to know how much others are paid for in similar circumstances, i.e. group clinic paid per session.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

Internship $18,000 (yep….)

Postdoc $60,000

First job $75,000; got a raise the second year $86,000 (primary care clinic in the Midwest)

Current job (Almost four years since getting my doctorate): $127,900 (a children’s hospital in an area with high cost of living)

 

[medium rare]

Internship: $15,500 (2003)
Postdoc: $30,000
Private practice: >$550,000 net
(evaluation, psychotherapy, medication management)

 

[PSYCHEVAL3]

Internship: $15,500 (2003)
Postdoc: $30,000
Private practice: >$550,000 net
(evaluation, psychotherapy, medication management)

Net! Wow, very impressive. I bet your girlfriend, wife, partner, etc didn’t initially know they were hanging out with a plastic surgeon. What a great success story.

My strategy has been to pay myself a nice wage, I eliminated 100 percent of personal debt including real estate, my expenses are not a lot and I invest the rest. In the company I eliminated all business debt including the corporations real estate, I buy a nice but reasonable company vehicle every 5 to 7 years, then I stack around $120,000 a year in the company, some in retained earnings to have liquidity but most with purchasing securities held within the company. My long term play (7 years out) is to retire early, maintain my salary, have the company generate passive income with several employed providers, live on the salary making dollars and spending ( insert foreign currency), engaged geographic arbitrage, America is too expensive, live on the salary till death, and hopefully never have to touch personal retirement accounts except required minimum distributions. Then give the wealth generated to people and causes I love at the time of my passing.

 

[PsyDr]

And that is how you get the 50/50 split, confusing exploitation for business acumen.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

have the company generate passive income with several employed providers

So steal from them, got it.

 

[quickpsych]

Great thread. I know when I was in school I had no idea how much people made and often thought much lower than it was.

For me:

Internship : $24k but had some side hourly work a few hours a week too. - Non profit

Postdoc : was private practice and made around $40/hr about 15-25 hours a week. Mostly evals and assessments . Also did some hourly work on side. - Private

First salaried job: Wasnt yet licensed and was finishing dissertation but had masters already. Community mental health about $38k a year plus benefits. Left once got a post doc. Mostly therapy and groups.- Non profit

Most recent salaried job: Around $48k with benefits but bumped to $70k ish as soon as got license. Specialized population mostly therapy, some assessment, consults, part of treatment teams - Non Profit

New job starting: Around $115k with additional bonuses and benefits. Mostly brief assessments and evals, some therapy, some consults. Some what niche population. Less hours but faster paced and less administrative work/tasks than current and most recent job - For Profit

I also do some side work for private practices usually $80ish an hour or 60-70% of a fee depending on the service and what I’m doing for a case. Mostly involves assessments. Which I hope to continue and maybe make around $15- $20k a year on very part time. Maybe will increase that over time depending on how much I want work. Private

I also am considering maybe doing an adjunct teaching position maybe a class a semester down the line; more for my own interest rather than money.

Long story short once you get your license it seems opportunities and higher income come to you. I got licensed earlier this year for reference.

 

[PSYCHEVAL3]

So steal from them, got it.

It sounds like we have different philosophical views on creating high paying jobs, providing a service people benefit from, and experiencing an economic benefit as a result. I have a surgeon friend who generates 2 million a year for a hospital and is paid 300,000. That’s stealing to me, just like most hospital jobs.

 

[PSYCHEVAL3]

And that is how you get the 50/50 split, confusing exploitation for business acumen.

That’s strong language. Then you might reconsider ever, ever buying food in a grocery store, a vehicle, or a home built by construction workers again. Cannibalism among psychologists, the one thing we can count on.

 

[summerbabe]

VA internship 2017-18: ~24k
VA postdoc 2018-19: ~46k
Current virtual VA gig: GS13, Step 2 (with rest of US locality pay): $97.5k

Factors of consideration for me:
- Early career with no student debt
- Not a neuropsych (or have prominent assessment interest despite a decent amount of assessment training & experience)
- I enjoy my job and am fortunate that my day to day therapy work often feels meaningful
- I'm a minimalistic person with lower than average material wants/needs
- I live rurally in a poor state which will limit earning potential, either within local institutions or in private practice but haven't felt the need to explore those options yet
- No side work or desire to take on more than a standard 40 hour workweek currently (or maybe ever)

 

[WisNeuro]

Personally, while I would find a 50/50 insulting for my level of expertise and experience, I'm not necessarily against that being offered to people. You always have the option of negotiating or walking as a provider. Now, when I hire in the next year or so, I'll be offering a better split, I'm also not hiring any diploma millers and whatnot. So, if your options are limited due to previous poor choices, sometimes you either go your own way, or accept what's on the table.

 

[PsyDr]

That’s strong language. Then you might reconsider ever, ever buying food in a grocery store, a vehicle, or a home built by construction workers again. Cannibalism among psychologists, the one thing we can count on.

Profit margin is 30% for groceries, 13% for new cars, and 23% for new construction. When you have a good business model, it's cheaper to not exploit.

 

[VirginiaIsForLovers]

Internship: $27.5K

Post-Doc: $62K (private hospital)

First Job: $72K base salary (25 clinical hours/weekly target; +50% of billing rate additional units if exceeding 25 hours week; $0-$10K extra yearly)
*4 weeks vacation (Basically unlimited if you met your weekly target); 10 sick; 10 holidays; 403B 3.5% match; 2-5% COL raise/yearly

Current: $110K (AMC/Public Health System) + $30K moonlighting (~6 hours/week) = $140K
*3 weeks vacation; 3 weeks sick leave; 1 week CME; 14 Holidays; Union; Pension; 457B plan; Raises based on yearly step

Primarily stayed at organizations that qualify for PSLF (7-8 years in). Currently unmarried, so benefits are of important value to me.

 

[PSYCHEVAL3]

Profit margin is 30% for groceries, 13% for new cars, and 23% for new construction. When you have a good business model, it's cheaper to not exploit.

I was pointing out the horrible wages of some people involved in the agriculture industry, automobile industry, and real estate industry when compared to the executives within those industries. A non livable wage versus 100 million net worth. We have different views on risk, reward, and entrepreneurship. It seems pointless to continue this discussion. Congratulations on your success, I wish you the best.

 

[Sanman]

And that is how you get the 50/50 split, confusing exploitation for business acumen.

While I am not for exploitation or 50/50 splits, there is a line. If there is not a decent profit then psychologists will not start group practices. Young folks, mid-levels, etc do need competent leadership and I want to make sure that ethical clinicians continue to start group practices. Otherwise, you end up with private equity backed corporate garbage that that just shuts down operations when there is no profit. Someone is always going to be offering these jobs and if the options are work for a clinician for a 60% split or work for a for-profit corps, I know which position I decided to take. Having learned what I have and saving my pennies, I will only work for myself in the future. However, I am still thankful the opportunities (even the bad ones) were there when I was young and broke.

 

[hum1]

Personally, while I would find a 50/50 insulting for my level of expertise and experience, I'm not necessarily against that being offered to people. You always have the option of negotiating or walking as a provider. Now, when I hire in the next year or so, I'll be offering a better split, I'm also not hiring any diploma millers and whatnot. So, if your options are limited due to previous poor choices, sometimes you either go your own way, or accept what's on the table.

it’s not ideal. I am paid 24% of what I make for the clinic in a psychotherapy session. I have 15 years of experience.

 

[Sanman]

it’s not ideal. I am paid 24% of what I make for the clinic in a psychotherapy session. I have 15 years of experience.

The question then becomes why work there. You know you are worth more to the patients as they are paying significantly more out of pocket and this is obviously in a HCOL area/ major metro.

 

[cara susanna]

I'm in the VA (GS-13, step.. 3 I think?) and earn around 100k before taxes. I'm not in an area with a high COL so I don't get much of an adjustment there.

 

[PsyDr]

While I am not for exploitation or 50/50 splits, there is a line. If there is not a decent profit then psychologists will not start group practices.

Absolutely. Sometimes, when you see things in a business plan, it indicates other problems. Successful businesses do not need to cheap out.

 

[hum1]

The question then becomes why work there. You know you are worth more to the patients as they are paying significantly more out of pocket and this is obviously in a HCOL area/ major metro.

i am new to the state and area. Also, I just got my license in the US. For now it’s ok, doesn’t seem like a long term sustainable/desirable option.

 

[Sanman]

Absolutely. Sometimes, when you see things in a business plan, it indicates other problems. Successful businesses do not need to cheap out.

To be fair, sometimes greed is just part of the business plan. I saw this too often in my work. It made working as a manager untenable because more often then not, you get what you pay for in terms of quality staff. When the industry writ large stops caring about quality (customers included), you have a problem.

 

[Sanman]

i am new to the state and area. Also, I just got my license in the US. For now it’s ok, doesn’t seem like a long term sustainable/desirable option.

That's fair.

 

[WisNeuro]

it’s not ideal. I am paid 24% of what I make for the clinic in a psychotherapy session. I have 15 years of experience.

Look for practices/providers with an office to sublease, create an LLC, switch your credentialing, let people know you are open for business, and then you are free to keep whatever you make after overhead. If your area is anything like ours, filling clinic slots is easy, it's taking people 4+ weeks to even get an intake most places here.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Look for practices/providers with an office to sublease, create an LLC, switch your credentialing, let people know you are open for business, and then you are free to keep whatever you make after overhead. If your area is anything like ours, filling clinic slots is easy, it's taking people 4+ weeks to even get an intake most places here.

This works. I did it last year, in the middle of the pandemic. It takes some hustle, but the feeling of not having to give up a chunk of your $$....priceless.

 

[WisNeuro]

This works. I did it last year, in the middle of the pandemic. It takes some hustle, but the feeling of not having to give up a chunk of your $$....priceless.

Yeah, it was actually an easier process than I thought. And, the waitlists are there. Therapy waitlists here are easily 4+weeks. I have never advertised and my current clinical slots are booking into Late August/early September.

 

[hum1]

Look for practices/providers with an office to sublease, create an LLC, switch your credentialing, let people know you are open for business, and then you are free to keep whatever you make after overhead. If your area is anything like ours, filling clinic slots is easy, it's taking people 4+ weeks to even get an intake most places here.

This works. I did it last year, in the middle of the pandemic. It takes some hustle, but the feeling of not having to give up a chunk of your $$....priceless.

Thank you! I have always kept my head down and been focused on my work, patients, and students and have never paid much attention to the business side of things. But I would like to start to be more knowledgeable about the business part. Are there any resources that you recommend that you’ve found useful?

 

[WisNeuro]

Thank you! I have always kept my head down and been focused on my work, patients, and students and have never paid much attention to the business side of things. But I would like to start to be more knowledgeable about the business part. Are there any resources that you recommend that you’ve found useful?

Paper office for the digital age is a decent book. Ask some colleagues who do what you do if you can buy them dinner in exchange for a chat about private practice. Start looking at rents for office space in your area. start sketching out a rough budget of expenses. Start compiling a revenue projection datasheet. You can use Medicare figures for a real rough estimate if you will be taking insurance. If you're cash pay, project those figures, but know that it will take longer to fill your practice.

 

[earnadegree123]

Anyone have any insight into market value salary for a newly licensed forensic evaluator working for the government in a Western state?

 

[WisNeuro]

Anyone have any insight into market value salary for a newly licensed forensic evaluator working for the government in a Western state?

If it's a government position, those salaries are part of public record somewhere. At least here, they're probably slightly under what you can get working for a big hospital system, though the benefits may be slightly better. Still waaayyyyyy less than you'd make in PP doing IME/forensics.

 

[PsyDr]

Anyone have any insight into market value salary for a newly licensed forensic evaluator working for the government in a Western state?

Depends on which state. The bad parts of CA pay over $100k. AZ, NV, OR, WA, ID, ...pay is bad.

 

[WisNeuro]

Depends on which state. The bad parts of CA pay over $100k. AZ, NV, OR, WA, ID, ...pay is bad.

Just got a job ad for a "Senior Clinical Psychologist" here for the state doing forensic type evals, range given is 70-117k.

 

[Dr_Bee]

That is a very fair point. I think one area not highlighted on SDN that much are the 1099 jobs w. low reimbursement as a contractor. Also, the uni counseling $'s are pretty rare on here....but those jobs are often $50k-$65k, which for 9mon is still really low.

A local University here pays $53,000 - no difference in pay between the LPC/LCSWs and PhD/PsyDs for 12 month appointment. Not surprisingly, they have a hard time keeping staff, but definitely pulls the mean down. Similar positions at other UCCs in the general area pay between $70-$85K.

 

[WisNeuro]

A local University here pays $53,000 - no difference in pay between the LPC/LCSWs and PhD/PsyDs for 12 month appointment. Not surprisingly, they have a hard time keeping staff, but definitely pulls the mean down. Similar positions at other UCCs in the general area pay between $70-$85K.

Wow, this was my postdoc salary.

 

[JeyRo]

A local University here pays $53,000 - no difference in pay between the LPC/LCSWs and PhD/PsyDs for 12 month appointment. Not surprisingly, they have a hard time keeping staff, but definitely pulls the mean down. Similar positions at other UCCs in the general area pay between $70-$85K.

Oh yeah love that one - "Mental health job seekers wanted! PhD/PsyD/LCSW/LCSW/MFT/LPCs please apply!"

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yeah....a huge red flag is when they group all of the licenses together. It's infuriating bc each training background is different, so they are all discounted. While not 100%, that's usually a pretty good indicator that you aren't going to be appreciated for what you actually do. I've had some say that "Oh, that's just HR's wording", but if they don't care enough to consider there are differences, then it probably isn't a good place for me.

 

[Sanman]

Yeah....a huge red flag is when they group all of the licenses together. It's infuriating bc each training background is different, so they are all discounted. While not 100%, that's usually a pretty good indicator that you aren't going to be appreciated for what you actually do. I've had some say that "Oh, that's just HR's wording", but if they don't care enough to consider there are differences, then it probably isn't a good place for me.

They need to change the wording to read correctly so jobseekers understand what they mean:

Looking for an individual with an unrestricted license and a pulse to work for as little money as possible.

 

[deleted1100659]

How much debt did you guys accumulate overall before you started practicing? Med school cost me a nice 350k. Maybe I went the wrong, route, lol.

 

[WisNeuro]

How much debt did you guys accumulate overall before you started practicing? Med school cost me a nice 350k. Maybe I went the wrong, route, lol.

Zero, fully funded program, worked in clinical research jobs in grad school, and lived frugally in a medium CoL area.

 

[PsychPhDone]

How much debt did you guys accumulate overall before you started practicing? Med school cost me a nice 350k. Maybe I went the wrong, route, lol.

None.
I make less than my MD colleagues but I came in with zero debt so 🤷‍♀️ hopefully your salary more than makes up for it after a bit!

 

[deleted1100659]

None.
I make less than my MD colleagues but I came in with zero debt so 🤷‍♀️ hopefully your salary more than makes up for it after a bit!

It does for the most part I think. Though if something happens with PLSF that would be a bit of a setback but financially I think I would be ok. Still having that number hang over your head does kind of suck.

 

[Sanman]

How much debt did you guys accumulate overall before you started practicing? Med school cost me a nice 350k. Maybe I went the wrong, route, lol.

It will range from $0-250K+. I went to a funded program, but took out money for living expenses as my stipend did not pay enough to cover all my expenses. With some undergrad loans, I think I ended up with a bit less than 80k in loans all in.