How much money do you make and transparent salary/job offer thread?

[R. Matey]

How much debt did you guys accumulate overall before you started practicing? Med school cost me a nice 350k. Maybe I went the wrong, route, lol.

+1 for $0.00 in student loans. I really can't see how it's worth it otherwise (edit: to be a psychologist).

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[neurotic_cow]

How much debt did you guys accumulate overall before you started practicing? Med school cost me a nice 350k. Maybe I went the wrong, route, lol.

Also none for me. My program was only partially funded (stipend + tuition credit) but I went to a public state school and got in-state tuition so my master's and doctorate ended up costing less overall than my undergraduate degree. Not a fancy school with significant name recognition but it got the job done and it was a good program.

+1 for $0.00 in student loans. I really can't see how it's worth it otherwise (edit: to be a psychologist).

I had a supervisor that went to a professional school for psychology and ended up with something like 150k in debt. They're now banking on loan forgiveness, but it never made sense to me.

 

[Westbound2019]

How much debt did you guys accumulate overall before you started practicing? Med school cost me a nice 350k. Maybe I went the wrong, route, lol.

$300k. That includes undergraduate, a terminal masters and the doctorate/masters …. I was geographically limited, so I went to nearby private schools each time.

 

[ela]

Yeah, it was actually an easier process than I thought. And, the waitlists are there. Therapy waitlists here are easily 4+weeks. I have never advertised and my current clinical slots are booking into Late August/early September.

Is this for cash practice or insurance? Im in a full time role w. cash pay PP . . . getting referrals but on the fence about fully making the leap. Im sure I could fill quickly if I was paneled but difficult to do as a sole proprietor.

 

[WisNeuro]

Is this for cash practice or insurance? Im in a full time role w. cash pay PP . . . getting referrals but on the fence about fully making the leap. Im sure I could fill quickly if I was paneled but difficult to do as a sole proprietor.

It's insurance mostly for clinical, though I do offer cash pay for insurances that I am not paneled with. I'm also about 50-60% IME/legal work.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I am not sure what my total debt is to be honest. I have about 20 loans from undergrad all the way through my doctorate. It’s just under 300k, I believe. Even with the payments, I am still doing way better than I was in any of the jobs I had for the first 20 years of my life. I came from a relatively low achieving second generation immigrant family and the student loans and Pepperdine afforded me quite the opportunity. I don’t know if I could have done it the “right” way, but truth be told I didnt even know about how to accomplish my goal of being a psychologist when I had this dream starting back in 1995 when I was going to night school at a local community college. I didn’t even really know what a psychologist was. Part of my success with clients and in business is that I am not a typical psychologist and didn’t follow a typical path. Some of the posters on here are the rock stars of the field and I admire that, but I am the guy that fought his way through the back door and crashed the party. Sometimes I still feel a bit of impostor syndrome still, obviously, but I think more and more I am owning who I am and what I bring to the field and am proud of that.

Some of these feelings and thoughts are coming from the day I had today where I had lunch with my former employer, a psychiatrist, and we discussed some of our next steps as we work collaboratively to create an integrative mental health recovery community reintegration model using what we have learned over the last 50 plus years of combined experience. This was followed by meeting with two student interns who could be part of this nascent dream and meeting with a couple of young adults who are part of the target group that could use this. As I say this I realize that it is not really about the money as much as the passion for what I am doing. That being said, I also believe that what we bring as psychologists and other mental health professionals is valuable and we should get paid. Also, I want to be able to travel and I enjoy some of the finer things in life that come with money so that is part of my dream as well.

 

[Sanman]

As I say this I realize that it is not really about the money as much as the passion for what I am doing. That being said, I also believe that what we bring as psychologists and other mental health professionals is valuable and we should get paid. Also, I want to be able to travel and I enjoy some of the finer things in life that come with money so that is part of my dream as well.

Passion is good, as one would get burned out quite quickly caring for others if it was only about the money. That said, I also enjoy volunteering at the local homeless shelter and mentoring kids. There is a reason that those aren't my job. The bank that holds my mortgage and the local grocery store only accept cash, not 'good karma' credits. As a field, we really need to divorce the idea that being a good business person means you are not a good person. There can be a balance of both.

 

[R. Matey]

I am not sure what my total debt is to be honest.

One point worth making, especially since students and prospectives read this forum, is that funded opportunities are out there if you meet the admission criteria of a given program. If you come from a disadvantaged background, an unfunded Psy.D. program is not your only option.

I also went to community college and had no less than two jobs during my entire undergrad career. I'm first gen so I was also able to take advantage of pell grants and local scholarships that kept my debt load down back then. Due to poor advising and lack of opportunity during undergrad, I mistakenly believed that the local unfunded Psy.D. program was my best choice after mental health counseling did not pay the dividends I thought it would. When I learned about funded programs, I thought there was no way that I might qualify for one, but I also thought that I would always regret it if I didn't try. When I finally did go to apply, I had multiple offer, which surprised me. While I know my experience won't be everyone's, but I also know that I'm not alone. Many people in my program and elsewhere have similar stories.

 

[WisNeuro]

One point worth making, especially since students and prospectives read this forum, is that funded opportunities are out there if you meet the admission criteria of a given program. If you come from a disadvantaged background, an unfunded Psy.D. program is not your only option.

I also went to community college and had no less than two jobs during my entire undergrad career. I'm first gen so I was also able to take advantage of pell grants and local scholarships that kept my debt load down back then. Due to poor advising and lack of opportunity during undergrad, I mistakenly believed that the local unfunded Psy.D. program was my best choice after mental health counseling did not pay the dividends I thought it would. When I learned about funded programs, I thought there was no way that I might qualify for one, but I also thought that I would always regret it if I didn't try. When I finally did go to apply, I had multiple offer, which surprised me. While I know my experience won't be everyone's, but I also know that I'm not alone. Many people in my program and elsewhere have similar stories.

Definitely. And, to add on to this, some programs will have "fellowship" or some other name of set aside funds specifically for minority/disadvantaged background applicants. My first program, as well as the one that I transferred over to, had slots specifically available for this wherein a student from one of these backgrounds essentially got their full stipend without having to TA or be a research assistant on a grant. We can argue about the merits of not requiring experiences that are hugely beneficial and good for CV, but the point remains is that these opportunities exist in many programs.

 

[JeyRo]

Originally accumulated around 150K for a professional school degree, paid down about 20% of that over the last 15 years and then finally got PSLF and zeroed it all out. Financially now better off than I ever was, even with inflation being as nutty as it is.

Still have no idea how my kids will pay for their college though. Oh well.

 

[Sanman]

Originally accumulated around 150K for a professional school degree, paid down about 20% of that over the last 15 years and then finally got PSLF and zeroed it all out. Financially now better off than I ever was, even with inflation being as nutty as it is.

Still have no idea how my kids will pay for their college though. Oh well.

Given what college costs and how little some academic PhDs are paid, couldn't you just pay some PhD $70k/yr to tutor your kids privately on a subject for 4 years and print out a piece of paper? Seems more cost effective and likely it would be a better learning experience.

 

[msc545]

California 200K net 4 days/wk private practice.

 

[smalltownpsych]

One point worth making, especially since students and prospectives read this forum, is that funded opportunities are out there if you meet the admission criteria of a given program. If you come from a disadvantaged background, an unfunded Psy.D. program is not your only option.

I also went to community college and had no less than two jobs during my entire undergrad career. I'm first gen so I was also able to take advantage of pell grants and local scholarships that kept my debt load down back then. Due to poor advising and lack of opportunity during undergrad, I mistakenly believed that the local unfunded Psy.D. program was my best choice after mental health counseling did not pay the dividends I thought it would. When I learned about funded programs, I thought there was no way that I might qualify for one, but I also thought that I would always regret it if I didn't try. When I finally did go to apply, I had multiple offer, which surprised me. While I know my experience won't be everyone's, but I also know that I'm not alone. Many people in my program and elsewhere have similar stories.

If only I had known that there were funded opportunities available and what it took to get into them. Coming out of undergrad and even in my masters, I found very little information that was as useful as what I have learned since and much of it from this site. One reason that this is such an important site. I evetually applied to about six programs and went with the one that accepted me. A few year before, right after undergrad, I gave up on the first app and needed another couple of years of intensive personal psychological growth and a Masters degree that I had to pay for and didn’t afford me any research experience which I still didn’t know was essential to even consider giving it another try. Some of why I share this is not to say just go about it blindly, but to encourage other students who don‘t know or have made some ”missteps“ along the way to be ok acknowledging that so that we can provide the information.

 

[R. Matey]

If only I had known that there were funded opportunities available and what it took to get into them. Coming out of undergrad and even in my masters, I found very little information that was as useful as what I have learned since and much of it from this site. One reason that this is such an important site. I evetually applied to about six programs and went with the one that accepted me. A few year before, right after undergrad, I gave up on the first app and needed another couple of years of intensive personal psychological growth and a Masters degree that I had to pay for and didn’t afford me any research experience which I still didn’t know was essential to even consider giving it another try. Some of why I share this is not to say just go about it blindly, but to encourage other students who don‘t know or have made some ”missteps“ along the way to be ok acknowledging that so that we can provide the information.

Absolutely, the local unfunded Psy.D. program actually had a pretty good reputation in the community for producing quality clinicians and I had friends who went and were also encouraging me to go. I reversed course after finding SDN years ago and then reading stuff in the Insider's Guide, Mitch's, and some other papers, which all convinced me to try for a funded program. Once I did, I was floored at the amount of funding available to people in similar situations to me: not only was my tuition covered, but many of the ancillary costs were covered by scholarships. It was truly a game changer for me. So, I'm here now basically to pay it forward. Also, for the SDN meme repository. It's quality

 

[borne_before]

Zero - but I had a ton of familial support and mentorship.

I have a learning disability and ADHD. I went to a traditional 4 year state school. My father was a professor, which waved like 75% of tuition and my parents covered the rest. I usually had part time jobs (this was important to keep me focused on the big goal). I had to take bonehead english and math (which I did at the local community colleges, and for part of my foreign language). The 75% tuition waiver meant that community college, which did not accept the waiver, was more expensive at the time than the Uni I went too! It took me five years to get through my undergrad because 15 units was just too much at that time (I also had to drop a semester because of a major craniofacial surgery brought on from a sinus infection). Again, I always got a ton of financial support from my parents.

About the time I graduated with my undergrad, I was thinking about becoming a fireman. The local departments put on try outs and they would send you to school. But, 2008 happened, and everywhere put a freeze on hiring. I was taking abnormal psych, and found out about how test development worked, and found that and quantitative research methods interesting, so I went for a masters in educational psychology. I still think I did my best work during that masters conceptually. I loved it - but I was worried about the job opportunities/lack of with a doctorate in ed psych. I hustled my way into scholarships/grants/research assistantships (one was building a website) that my second year was free. I did work with a local developmental disabilities outfit during my first year there.

But, it also made me think about my own educational experiences more, and I got "called" to school psychology because of LD/ADHD and my desire to work with people. That program, though unfunded, had tons of opportunity for research/grants/scholarships and I think I only paid a semester or two tuition. Also, my then fiance, was done with her schooling, and she started to make some real money to supplement things a lot. She worked in a nearby town and would stay with her parents during the week and come back during the weekends. She was my rock.

Basically, I got out with zero debt by mooching off my family and gf. I was never good enough to make it into a clinical psych program (and that work didn't interest me) or get fully funded. But, I was able to it somehow (im also really frugal). I'm basically the luckiest person to have ever existed.

 

[Dazen]

I'm entering my second year in a fully funded program, so I'm on track to graduate with no debt. Wanted to add that, while the community college/state school route can be a fantastic way to save money, private schools can also be excellent deals depending on your background. I went to an Ivy that only gave out grants for financial aid, so with my parents helping to contribute a few thousand a year, I was able to graduate with no loans. It actually become one of my cheapest options because of this. I also received a full scholarship to another SLA college that otherwise would have been very expensive. I know these opportunities aren't always accessible to everyone, but I think they can be worth looking into. There is a lot of money out there for college if you look.

I also worked in a non-psych, lucrative industry for a few years before going back to school. Again, not a path everyone can/should take (I was an engineering major undergrad, which waved entrance into some high paying fields) and it can made the already difficult admissions process even harder when trying to explain your path and goals, but being able to have money in the bank has been fantastic. Even at fully funded programs, stipends are usually quite low. My quality of life is worlds higher knowing that I have the funds to cover a potential expensive emergency.

 

[Mojito_15]

Went to a midwestern university and lived in an area with low cost of living, got PHD in school psych & did an APA Accredited internship also in the midwest (made about 12,000 on internship) no debt, partially funded w/ a stipend of about 12,000 for first couple years, then worked as a part time school psych (made about 28,000 + benefits as a .6 school psych) and a school psych prof (full time, made about 50,000 base salary, though was up to 65,000 w/ overload courses & other duties) while getting my degree to pay tuition. Made it so I took 10 years to finish, but it's good to not have debt. I'm a postdoc now, work in community mental health, and make about 80,000- I currently live in a coastal major metropolitan area.

 

[Loading…]

1.5 years post fellowship; mid level VA / neuropsychologist (110-130k).

I am wondering if others have had experience supplementing their income in other ventures (occasional IME, consulting etc). Naturally forensic cases require more time and a different skill set; from a qol and feasibility standpoint, how did this work out for you?

 

[WisNeuro]

1.5 years post fellowship; mid level VA / neuropsychologist (110-130k).

I am wondering if others have had experience supplementing their income in other ventures (occasional IME, consulting etc). Naturally forensic cases require more time and a different skill set; from a qol and feasibility standpoint, how did this work out for you?

Considering the intellectual challenge of these cases, and the amount of money you can charge for them, it's really a no brainer if you enjoy it. I have a super flexible schedule, work about a .75 schedule, and make multiples of my previous years' earnings.

 

[super.ego]

240k+ in psychotherapy private practice.

 

[smalltownpsych]

240k+ in psychotherapy private practice.

Thats impressive. Is that gross or net and is it just your own revenue or are you working with other providers? What kind of payer mix? Curious since I am three months into building my own psychotherapy practice. Looking at my own numbers that would be a little above the target for gross revenue that I have for myself.

 

[super.ego]

Thats impressive. Is that gross or net and is it just your own revenue or are you working with other providers? What kind of payer mix? Curious since I am three months into building my own psychotherapy practice. Looking at my own numbers that would be a little above the target for gross revenue that I have for myself.

It's gross and in an urban area where private pay rates are higher. Select insurances also reimburse at unusually high rates in this region. I have a pretty even distribution of private pay (often using superbills for out-of-network benefits) versus in-network insurance using clients.

 

[smalltownpsych]

It's gross and in an urban area where private pay rates are higher. Select insurances also reimburse at unusually high rates in this region. I have a pretty even distribution of private pay (often using superbills for out-of-network benefits) versus in-network insurance using clients.

Thanks for the info. Makes sense. If it was net then I was thinking I was missing something. 😎

 

[Justanothergrad]

Internship at VA 23,700
First year TT R1 salary 72k
Current salary ~83k (pre-tenure, 9 month) without summer pay or anything else that I often have (7k per class or ~9k buyout). No individual monthly insurance premium and good retirement options.

My private practice varies but I can ensure 25-50k depending how many hours a week I want to work each year (between 3-10). I take private pay only, billing between 150 and 200 an hour depending on the service.

0 starting debt (grad or undergrad) and the COL for where I live is 10% below national average for comparison.

 

[boomshakalaka]

Internship: 25k
Fellowship: 40k
Starting salary: ~100k. Out of fellowship I had negotiated 90k with another agency in a somewhat niche forensic specialty. Great environment and setting but family considerations won out.
Current salary (~5 years out): 140k. Great benefits, good schedule.
Private practice: 80k. No therapy, all evaluations. Could expand but don’t have any more bandwidth and concerts are more fun.

EDIT: forgot to add that I’m in what some would consider a “High” COL area. I don’t necessarily see it that way.

 

[PsySeeker]

Internship 27k (and 500k wouldn’t be enough to get me to ever go back into that setting now!)

Post-doc- I’m not sure, maybe 90k doing a mix of evals and forensic therapy at the time.

About 340 to 350k gross, probably about 330k or so net. Solo psychotherapy private practice, mostly commercial insurance based.

No student loan debt. Did half my undergrad at community college and half at state school branch and did it all in less than two years which saved me significant money (unlimited credits for the semester fee) and significant opportunity cost.

Partially (but relatively well) funded and in-state Psy.D. program.

 

[hum1]

Internship: $28,100
Postdoc: $52,700
First/current job in a group PP (I've been here for 9 months): ~$118,500 (~18 billable hours + 1 group/week x 48 weeks), $6,000 healthcare stipend, 3% 401k employer contribution, and 2% yearly bonus.

Edit: Building up my caseload more and just accepted a new promotion, so the number should be closer to $150k by years end. No PTO because it's hourly, but it's not a big deal to me since I can schedule how I want.

I was wondering for others who are in a group private practice setting doing psychotherapy if they could share how much is it customary for the fee splitting percentage between the clinic and the clinician? Thank you!

 

[WisNeuro]

I was wondering for others who are in a group private practice setting doing psychotherapy if they could share how much is it customary for the fee splitting percentage between the clinic and the clinician? Thank you!

Many places will offer a 50/50 split, but you'd be bonkers to take that. Depends on the practice and what services you are rendering, as some require more overhead, but anywhere from 55-70 seems to be the range here aside from the crap practices that hold firm at 50.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I was wondering for others who are in a group private practice setting doing psychotherapy if they could share how much is it customary for the fee splitting percentage between the clinic and the clinician? Thank you!

In cash only practice, I am splitting 50/50 with interns, when I get full myself I anticipate offering 70/30 for licensed masters and 75/25 with psychologist.

 

[borne_before]

It feels like many high earners are responding. I would love feedback from psychs who are closer to the median or lower and what other reasons keep them there. No judgment.

 

[Sanman]

It feels like many high earners are responding. I would love feedback from psychs who are closer to the median or lower and what other reasons keep them there. No judgment.

What is closer to the median vs high earner to you? I know I don't make as much as I could and it is because, frankly, I don't need to right now. My wife does very well for herself and the government provides great benefits and lots of paid vacation. Longer term we have talked about her taking a step back and me ramping things up a bit in terms of hours worked so that she can get a break. A lot of it comes down to balancing work and life past a certain point. Do you want to work 30 hours or 60 hours?

 

[WisNeuro]

What is closer to the median vs high earner to you? I know I don't make as much as I could and it is because, frankly, I don't need to right now. My wife does very well for herself and the government provides great benefits and lots of paid vacation. Longer term we have talked about her taking a step back and me ramping things up a bit in terms of hours worked so that she can get a break. A lot of it comes down to balancing work and life past a certain point. Do you want to work 30 hours or 60 hours?

Also, may be worth it to talk about hours worked per week. I know many people who have a FT job in an institutional setting and do evenings/some weekends in PP who make a lot, but are also working 60+ hours a week. I make good money, I could make a lot more, but I like my 30-ish hour weeks at the moment, particularly as I have young kids/energy sapping goblins to rear.

 

[R. Matey]

Also, may be worth it to talk about hours worked per week. I know many people who have a FT job in an institutional setting and do evenings/some weekends in PP who make a lot, but are also working 60+ hours a week. I make good money, I could make a lot more, but I like my 30-ish hour weeks at the moment, particularly as I have young kids/energy sapping goblins to rear.

A bit hard to put a price on some intangibles too. Most academics I've talked to are aware they could be making more if they weren't in academia.

 

[Shiori]

I wrapped up job hunting and have a general idea of the market value in some spots. That might be helpful too. This data is a little squishier since it's word of mouth and pre-negotiation.

Local AMC - starts at about 95,000 per the postdoc who had received an offer. The benefits were good. Some teleworking was available when I was looking. I had dreams of doing that position, but now that I have a job secured, I can look at things with a little less desperation. The AMC has a lot of really interesting opportunities and grant funded toys, but it attracts a big enough percentage of folks with egos and seems a lot less shiny. I would still consider it for the right position though, especially if it aligned with my research interests. It seems like people arrive early and leave late. Grant money chasing also seems less appealing than it used to be.

Outpatient clinic attached to big hospital - 86,000 is the base pay. The benefits were nice. No teleworking. I never made it to negotiations because it took them over 3 months after my second interview for them to even acknowledge they might be interested. I had moved on. The number of clients I needed to see seemed really high and they were more particular about "making it up" if people were no-showing. That sounds like a lot of suffering. They also signaled that I would dislike the work during the interview and I decided to believe them.

I already listed the 80,000 for the VA earlier in the thread. I ended up going with this offer for the stability, training opportunities, familiarity (I've worked at the VA previously), more mellow pace, and benefits. The biggest drawback is the commute and strong resistance to teleworking. I'm not looking forward to the administrative headaches.

My knowledge of other options is more limited. It seems like the college counseling center psychologists here get roughly 60,000. I don't know what private practice looks like.

 

[WisNeuro]

A bit hard to put a price on some intangibles too. Most academics I've talked to are aware they could be making more if they weren't in academia.

Indeed. Job satisfaction is a big part. If you hate what you do 40+ hours a week, who cares how much money you make? That was one of my biggest issues with the VA. Benefits and such were pretty good, but I hated the atmosphere and complete lack of anything resembling flexibility.

 

[smalltownpsych]

It feels like many high earners are responding. I would love feedback from psychs who are closer to the median or lower and what other reasons keep them there. No judgment.

Maybe the salary reports are inaccurate or misleading in some way. I was surprised by how high the psychologists incomes were when I saw the CEO's copy of nationwide survey on incomes that he was using at the hospital I worked at. I don't recall the source, but it didn't jibe with anything I had ever seen, but it does seem to correspond more with what I am seeing on this thread. I recall median being about 125k and at the time I was making 150k and was at the 75th %ile.

 

[Sanman]

Maybe the salary reports are inaccurate or misleading in some way. I was surprised by how high the psychologists incomes were when I saw the CEO's copy of nationwide survey on incomes that he was using at the hospital I worked at. I don't recall the source, but it didn't jibe with anything I had ever seen, but it does seem to correspond more with what I am seeing on this thread. I recall median being about 125k and at the time I was making 150k and was at the 75th 5ile.

The data from the most recent APA salary survey was collected about 10 years ago. Most of the other surveys (except Sweet's neuropsych) are overly broad and often include things like school psychologists. I don't think I have know of a decent survey, but the numbers here generally jive with what I have seen during my own personal research. The other issue I have noticed is that there is rarely a place where total comp is considered in the surveys. For example, there might be an entry of $70k as a faculty member salary and $25k private practice earnings, but we don't know that this is the same psychologist with two jobs and a $95k total comp.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Maybe the salary reports are inaccurate or misleading in some way. I was surprised by how high the psychologists incomes were when I saw the CEO's copy of nationwide survey on incomes that he was using at the hospital I worked at. I don't recall the source, but it didn't jibe with anything I had ever seen, but it does seem to correspond more with what I am seeing on this thread. I recall median being about 125k and at the time I was making 150k and was at the 75th 5ile.

There are some 3rd party salary databases that hospitals will use for setting RVU and salary benchmarks. I had one R1 institution dept use the 75th percentile productivity rate and the 50th for salary...that was their first (ridiculous) offer.

 

[futureapppsy2]

It would also be helpful if more people included geographic info--$100k is very different in NYC or LA versus Montana or Mississippi.

 

[R. Matey]

Indeed. Job satisfaction is a big part. If you hate what you do 40+ hours a week, who cares how much money you make? That was one of my biggest issues with the VA. Benefits and such were pretty good, but I hated the atmosphere and complete lack of anything resembling flexibility.

I can't stand the clinical systems in agency psychotherapy. I did it as master's level clinician and for internship/postdoc and never again. If I were in full time clinical practice, it would have to be PP or nothing.

 

[R. Matey]

The data from the most recent APA salary survey was collected about 10 years ago. Most of the other surveys (except Sweet's neuropsych) are overly broad and often include things like school psychologists. I don't think I have know of a decent survey, but the numbers here generally jive with what I have seen during my own personal research. The other issue I have noticed is that there is rarely a place where total comp is considered in the surveys. For example, there might be an entry of $70k as a faculty member salary and $25k private practice earnings, but we don't know that this is the same psychologist with two jobs and a $95k total comp.

A second issue is that APA's salary survey is a survey of the APA membership whereas the BLS figures have included Ed.S. school psychologists in their data pool. Both of these are arguably skewed downward though I haven't really heard much about wages rising with inflation.

 

[Shiori]

It would also be helpful if more people included geographic info--$100k is very different in NYC or LA versus Montana or Mississippi.

I'm in the Midwest. The cost of living is reasonable, but creeping up pretty quickly. It's hard to get a good read on things with the housing market being wonky.

 

[erg923]

I understand the curiosity, but there are multiple salary surveys for this sort of thing, not to mention that you can look up CPT codes and calculate from there based on your location....if you are doing mostly direct clinical service work anyway. Otherwise, location and job duties likely produce numbers that are WILDLY variable based on specific geographic location and the specific duties?

I am in a non-traditional role and make slightly north of 150k for a fully work from-home (WTF) position in a very nondescript midwestern state. The standard corporate raises certainly have NOT kept up with recent inflation numbers, unfortunately. I mean, I could do more to earn more...but I don't really want to, frankly. I probably "work" less than some people here...but I really function in a different world and do different things than one of direct patient care RVUs/WRVUs. I have not done or billed any clinical services work for over a year now.

 

[WisNeuro]

I understand the curiosity, but there are multiple salary surveys for this sort of thing, not to mention that you can look up CPT codes and calculate from there based on your location....if you are doing mostly direct clinical service work anyway. Otherwise, location and job duties likely produce numbers that are WILDLY variable based on specific geographic location and the specific duties?

I am in a non-traditional role and make slightly north of 150k for a fully work from-home (WTF) position in a very nondescript midwestern state. The standard corporate raises certainly have NOT kept up with recent inflation numbers, unfortunately. I mean, I could do more to earn more...but I don't really want to, frankly. I probably "work" less than some people here...but I really function in a different world and do different things than one of direct patient care RVUs/WRVUs. I have not done or billed any clinical services work for over a year now.

Couple issues, some of which have been brought up. One, is that jobs in institutional settings vary quite a bit and are not all that closely ties with RVUs. Two, while you can look up RVU data and reimbursements from CMS, that only gives you the baseline for Medicare reimbursement. A good starting point, but not very comprehensive. Also, most of the existing salary surveys, aside from maybe the AACN one, are overly broad and contain data from non-clinical psychologists, and other psychology related areas, and thus may not be representative of the population here as some of those occupations drag down mean/median with their inclusion.

 

[borne_before]

Couple issues, some of which have been brought up. One, is that jobs in institutional settings vary quite a bit and are not all that closely ties with RVUs. Two, while you can look up RVU data and reimbursements from CMS, that only gives you the baseline for Medicare reimbursement. A good starting point, but not very comprehensive. Also, most of the existing salary surveys, aside from maybe the AACN one, are overly broad and contain data from non-clinical psychologists, and other psychology related areas, and thus may not be representative of the population here as some of those occupations drag down mean/median with their inclusion.

Plus I think our focus on early career and feedback from others in similar boats is huge too.

 

[PsyDr]

It would also be helpful if more people included geographic info--$100k is very different in NYC or LA versus Montana or Mississippi.

Speaking for myself alone: the point is to provide data to INCREASE everyone’s ask. The purpose is NOT to impress, but to provide bargaining power.

I don’t care about your opinions about my earnings.
I do care if everyone starts asking for much more, because I can ask for more.

A rising tide raises all ships.

 

[Shiori]

I was interested to see the impact of consulting work on overall income. I'm early in my career and have mostly interacted with people in academia and the VA. When people say they do things like "assessment on the side," I had no concept of what that meant in practical terms. It helps me have a clearer idea of what's reasonable. It also gives more information on whether it makes sense to get licensed in some of the closer border states.

I also feel a little bit more relaxed. I hang out with finance people and they sometimes skew my thinking on what's "normal." There is a fairly typical range for psychologists and I am right about where I should be with the things I've prioritized. There are people who make a whole lot more, but they're doing different things and are in different places in their careers. My mileage may vary. It just adds data points to what I know already and will run across over the years.

 

[hillies]

Current job: Nonprofit hospital specialty psychology program director ("early career")- 130k + 8% annual performance bonus with great benefits and 5 weeks PTO/paid family leave. No RVU requirements, see about 10 patients in outpatient clinic weekly, plus a few more in integrated/consultative care and manage a team of something-teen psychologists, trainees, and LCSWs.

Starting salary as a clinician (also no RVU requirements) at same institution out of specialty postdoc was 105k + 10k moving reimbursement. Typical annual raises are 3-6%. East coast, though not particularly high COL area. In a move that makes no sense to me, our new psychologist hires are being offered less initially than I was (100k with no expenses covered), despite our inability to hire enough clinicians. My unsolicited advice - NEGOTIATE aggressively and do your best to know your true market value. Our institution is also going to start a student loan reimbursement program (~4-7k per year of service depending on profession) in the next year.

Some other data:
Recent offer for VP of an AMC hospital program managing ~50 allied health clinicians (including psychologists) in a high COL area - 150k. No clinical work required, but if desired, a maximum of 5% of clinical time. Good benefits that also included partial tuition waivers for children at their private academic institution.
Final offer for my current job at another institution in an adjacent state with similar COL but very high RVU requirements and more expensive benefits/no paid family leave - 108k + 10% productivity-based bonus. Current staff seemed absolutely miserable with their productivity requirements and trying to meet the incentive goals.
Postdoc (AMC) 45k
Internship (VA) 29k if I recall correctly.

 

[ChannelingBobMarley]

Internship (community behavioral health in 2019): $34k
Postdoc (university counseling center): $49k
Starting job (Big 10 UCC in a small college town): $64k, 12 mo contract. I know I could be making more elsewhere but I get 24 days paid vacation (plus 11 recognized paid holidays), 25 sick days/yr, great medical, only contracted to see max of 12 clients/week, and over summer my schedule is way lighter (only 3-ish clients a week). I feel like therapy is draining to me personally, so UCCs are good positions for me, even though I don't get paid nearly as much. Another personal component to my decision is I want to be a Training Director at a UCC, so that's a factor as well. But for those reading this that are curious about salary range for university counseling centers, the low range is in the mid-50's and higher paying places tend to be at private universities where starting pay is closer to $80-$100k. Also, similar to VAs, you can look up salaries of employees at any state-funded university. Hope this helps!

 

[WisNeuro]

Umm...