How much of an effect does being URM do for an application?

[wolfie77]

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How many URM are in each school? This table may surprise you. Keep in mind it accounts for all students, not just a single incoming class:

https://www.aamc.org/download/160146/data/table31-enrll-race-sch-2011.pdf

Attrition rates by race/ethnicity:

https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf

The vast majority of medical students, regardless of race, do graduate.

Being of lower socioeconomic status (as measured by parents level of education) is also a risk factor for failing to complete the first 2 years of medical school:
https://www.aamc.org/download/165418/data/aibvol9_no11.pdf.pdf

Finally, this report on medical students self-reports of willingness to served in underserved areas:
https://www.aamc.org/download/137518/data/aib_vol9_no8.pdf

I could not find that report that correlated MCAT with proportion passing the Step 1 exam. It was something that our Dean shared with us... it came from AAMC but doesn't seem to be on its website.

78 black students out of 1,239 total at Wayne State in DETROIT??? The f*ckeduppedness of that blows my mind.

 

[Freesia88]

Lol, nice rhetoric. Anyway, I'm clearly implicating affirmative action as creating higher attrition rates, not the fact that members of a particular racial group are admitted at all.



Hence the problem with affirmative action via "disadvantaged status".

Not rhetoric. Read about the Eugenics Program and what happened at Tuskegee and if you still think people of racial minorities have no reason to want doctors from their own background then really there is nothing more I can say to you.

And lower attrition rates are so much more important than the needs of patients right?

I still want to know where the patients we all purport to want to serve fit into this argument.

 

[Sandstorm]

Exactly! The people on here bashing the URM's are the very reason URM's are so sought after.

People from these minority populations deserve equal access to compassionate and culturally competent doctors. Those bashing URM have proved that they are incapable of filling that role.

Yes, we are totally bashing the urms rather than the process that allows them to attend with lower scores etc

*sarcasm*

 

[Freesia88]

Yes, we are totally bashing the urms rather than the process that allows them to attend with lower scores etc

*sarcasm*

😀 I can't believe you pulled this one. The scores make the doctor, right?

 

[wolfie77]

Yes, we are totally bashing the urms rather than the process that allows them to attend with lower scores etc

*sarcasm*

No sarcasm: It sure feels like you're bashing URM's.

People on SDN go around saying how unqualified so many URM's are for med school, and how many of them should be nowhere near med school, and claim that they can't graduate from med school anyway, and tell them how low their board scores are, and how some URM's are biologically incapable of the highest mental processes and we should just accept that, and yadayadayada.

But URM's aren't supposed to feel bashed? We aren't supposed to feel scared as **** that we might end up with people like that in our classes--people who think we aren't worthy of our seats and took those seats from white people and Asians??

 

[ShenanigansMD]

Dude, this thread needs to end. No one cares, except the posters apparently.

 

[sibitrum]

Not rhetoric. Read about the Eugenics Program and what happened at Tuskegee and if you still think people of racial minorities have no reason to want doctors from their own background then really there is nothing more I can say to you.

And lower attrition rates are so much more important than the needs of patients right?

I still want to know where the patients we all purport to want to serve fit into this argument.

Attrition rates are directly related to serving more patients, the goal you keep claiming is important to you. The lower attrition rates are, the more doctors are available.

No sarcasm: It sure feels like you're bashing URM's.

People on SDN go around saying how unqualified so many URM's are for med school, and how many of them should be nowhere near med school, and claim that they can't graduate from med school anyway, and tell them how low their board scores are, and how some URM's are biologically incapable of the highest mental processes and we should just accept that, and yadayadayada.

But URM's aren't supposed to feel bashed? We aren't supposed to feel scared as **** that we might end up with people like that in our classes--people who think we aren't worthy of our seats and took those seats from white people and Asians??

Yet another reason to get rid of affirmative action. It creates feelings of unfairness and as a result the animosity that you are pointing out here.

 

[HoltMD]

Wow! This "I have a little penis" saga is still alive?

 

[SpecterGT260]

thread is only a day old..... I'm not too surprised

 

[wolfie77]

Yet another reason to get rid of affirmative action. It creates feelings of unfairness and as a result the animosity that you are pointing out here.

Because there is a program that motivates you to be hateful, we should end the program so that you don't have a reason to be hateful?

Great assbackwards logic.

 

[Freesia88]

Attrition rates are directly related to serving more patients, the goal you keep claiming is important to you. The lower attrition rates are, the more doctors are available..

Yes... but how many of those majority White and Asian doctors who will then graduate are willing to go work for lower pay in underserved areas?

And will these patients trust them seeing as one group has shamelessly used and abused them in the past and continues to consider them the scum of the earth for the most part, and the other group thinks they are dumb and stupid and do not deserve anything better?

 

[ShenanigansMD]

Yes... but how many of those majority White and Asian doctors who will then graduate are willing to go work for lower pay in underserved areas?

And will these patients trust them seeing as one group has shamelessly used and abused them in the past and continues to consider them the scum of the earth for the most part, and the other group thinks they are dumb and stupid and do not deserve anything better?

Whites/asians aren't all "racist" doctors who don't care about URMs.

And yes, URMs should have an advantage because society tends to screw them over.

We're all Americans, why are people so ambivalent about this?

 

[sibitrum]

Because there is a program that motivates you to be hateful, we should end the program so that you don't have a reason to be hateful?

Great assbackwards logic.

Because black patients hate white doctors, we should start a program so that they can get a doctor they don't hate?

Great assbackwards logic.

 

[lobo.solo]

Wow! This "I have a little penis" saga is still alive?

Yes, tell them HoltMD!! We, brown people are comfortable with what we got 😉

 

[Freesia88]

Whites/asians aren't all "racist" doctors who don't care about URMs.

And yes, URMs should have an advantage because society tends to screw them over.

We're all Americans, why are people so ambivalent about this?

Didn't think they were...although I might revise that opinion, given the kinds of things I read on here.

But the questions remains, how many are willing to go to these underserved areas and committ to them?

 

[wolfie77]

Because black patients hate white doctors, we should start a program so that they can get a doctor they don't hate?

Great assbackwards logic.

Put the word "some" in front of black pts. and white doctors:

Black patients don't hate white doctors. White doctors have tended to either experiment on black bodies or see black patients as money dispensers rather than as human beings. Because of this, black patients don't currently trust white doctors. To remedy this, and the fact that blacks are horribly underrepresented as doctors, we have URM status.

Please PM me if you're genuine about a dialogue bc I don't think these threads usually lead to any resolution.

 

[Freesia88]

Because black patients hate white doctors, we should start a program so that they can get a doctor they don't hate?

Great assbackwards logic.

Black patients don't hate white doctors. Please please please.... read about the Tuskegee Study and come tell us your thoughts.

 

[wolfie77]

Black patients don't hate white doctors. Please please please.... read about the Tuskegee Study and come tell us your thoughts.

Are you familiar with the Guatemalan syphillis study?
Google it. It's not as well known but that one was even worse.

 

[ShenanigansMD]

Didn't think they were...although I might revise that opinion, given the kinds of things I read on here.

But the questions remains, how many are willing to go to these underserved areas and committ to them?

I might be naive here, but I think this is more "suburban" vs. "urban/rural," with the suburbs obviously having a lot more whites/money. There are clear economic disparities because of this, and race is not the only underlying factor (although it's a big one).

I just feel like this argument is oversimplified to race, which really is an annoying concept as people love to argue about something they were born with, and not what they have personally achieved.

 

[Freesia88]

Are you familiar with the Guatemalan syphillis study?
Google it. It's not as well known but that one was even worse.

Dude, I am depressed enough from participating in this thread. It's a sick sick world we live in.

 

[HoltMD]

Black patients don't hate white doctors. Please please please.... read about the Tuskegee Study and come tell us your thoughts.

Don't waste your ATPs on these ignorant idiots. I am white and I can tell you that not all whites are as stupid and racist as the ones you find trolling on SDN. There is a legitimate need to attract URMs in health care. Most URMs who are premeds are not individuals from the high economic range. They are primarily students who are first ones in the family to attend college. The rich ones are too smart to spend several years in medical training.

 

[wolfie77]

Don't waste your ATPs on these ignorant idiots. I am white and I can tell you that not all whites are as stupid and racist as the ones you find trolling on SDN. There is a legitimate need to attract URMs in health care. Most URMs who are premeds are not individuals from the high economic range. They are primarily students who are first ones in the family to attend college. The rich ones are too smart to spend several years in medical training.

I don't think all the people who oppose URM are racist or stupid, although I'm sure a few are a combo of both. What I do think motivates many of them is selfishness and the inability to look beyond themselves to see the big picture. I'm sure many are frustrated by the rat race of med school admissions.

Interestingly, the people who complain about this most vehemently are not likely to be the future doctors who will be filling the need for lower paid primary care providers to minority communities.

 

[Icy Snow]

I don't think all the people who oppose URM are racist or stupid, although I'm sure a few are a combo of both. What I do think motivates many of them is selfishness and the inability to look beyond themselves to see the big picture. I'm sure many are frustrated by the rat race of med school admissions.

Interestingly, the people who complain about this most vehemently are not likely to be the future doctors who will be filling the need for lower paid primary care providers to minority communities.

Nothing against URMs, I just think more factors should come into play and not just a persons race.
From personal experience, I know several URMs that come from great backgrounds that use it to their advantage so they wouldn't have to work as hard in undergraduate.

 

[wolfie77]

Nothing against URMs, I just think more factors should come into play and not just a persons race.
From personal experience, I know several URMs that come from great backgrounds that use it to their advantage so they wouldn't have to work as hard in undergraduate.

This bothers me too. I would 1000 times rather see a poor URM than a rich one get admitted under the current system, however the presence of a well-off URM still accomplishes the goal of undoing underrepresentation. The disparities are "racial," therefore "racial" solutions are appropriate to fix them.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Nothing against URMs, I just think more factors should come into play and not just a persons race.
From personal experience, I know several URMs that come from great backgrounds that use it to their advantage so they wouldn't have to work as hard in undergraduate.

The whole reason race is a factor is because patients want a physician from the same race. For URM, it's not about being privileged or disadvantaged, it's about having a workforce that reflects the population.

 

[Yonko Shanks]

The whole reason race is a factor is because patients want a physician from the same race. For URM, it's not about being privileged or disadvantaged, it's about having a workforce that reflects the population.

+1 thats why they also have disadvantaged box.

 

[TipToad]

I invite everybody in this thread to

 

[sliceofbread136]

Don't waste your ATPs on these ignorant idiots. I am white and I can tell you that not all whites are as stupid and racist as the ones you find trolling on SDN. There is a legitimate need to attract URMs in health care. Most URMs who are premeds are not individuals from the high economic range. They are primarily students who are first ones in the family to attend college. The rich ones are too smart to spend several years in medical training.

Everyone who disagrees with your opinion is a racist idiot? How mature.

If it's all about economic range and being the first to attend college, then why not base it specifically on those factors instead of race? That specific information is already required on the application.

The URM advantage is so med schools don't get sued by angry minority groups. That is the sole reason, everything else they tell you is colorful bullcrap.

 

[sliceofbread136]

The whole reason race is a factor is because patients want a physician from the same race. For URM, it's not about being privileged or disadvantaged, it's about having a workforce that reflects the population.

How many people actually really care about the race of their doctor? I've never meet anyone who cared...

Next time I'm at the doctor's office I'm going to insist I get a white doctor. I wonder how that will turn out.

 

[wolfie77]

The URM advantage is so med schools don't get sued by angry minority groups. That is the sole reason, everything else they tell you is colorful bullcrap.

Those damn minorities. All they're good for is taking white ppl's med school seats and filing lawsuits.

/sarcasm


Come on man, how can you say this stuff? Do you really believe it? Do you really not think that there is value to having the physician workforce try to mirror the communities that it serves?

 

[TipToad]

This is appropriate.

 

[Yonko Shanks]

How many people actually really care about the race of their doctor? I've never meet anyone who cared...

Next time I'm at the doctor's office I'm going to insist I get a white doctor. I wonder how that will turn out.

Have you ever felt worthless when you are next to a doctor who looks down on you because you can't afford to eat healthy or get checkups. Believe it or not, Some Doctors look down on some of their patients.

 

[wolfie77]

How many people actually really care about the race of their doctor? I've never meet anyone who cared...

Next time I'm at the doctor's office I'm going to insist I get a white doctor. I wonder how that will turn out.

This is such an easily debunked false equivalence. Odds are your doctor will be white.

The issue is that many of the rest of the humans in America have never had a doctor who looks like them. After a while this gets to you. As a URM, it's incredibly demoralizing and frustrating to have never had a physician like me I could look up to.

I'm not asking you to feel sorry for me, just to empathize with me. I'm asking you to understand and acknowledge this is a legitimate grievance among many which justify the URM system.

 

[Sandstorm]

😀 I can't believe you pulled this one. The scores make the doctor, right?

Not the conclusion I was drawing but why do the scores matter at all? Provides an indication of how you'll perform in med school. So they're a factor in your application...

If you're an orm

 

[Freesia88]

This is appropriate.

OK. Accusations and recriminations aside, I would still like to know how we all think the very real issues of:

1. Physician shortages in underserved areas

2. The mistrust minority patients tend to have for doctors of other races

3. Thousands of applicants for limited spots

...can be addressed.

***DISCLAIMER***This is by no means an exhaustive list.

It would also be nice to hear the perspectives of the Residents and Attendings we have on here. What were the URM's you went to school with like? Were they the lazy, opportunistic good for nothings who should have been barred from entering med school in the first place? And your experiences as doctors who interact with patients? Is the "URM Advantage" justified?

 

[Sandstorm]

No sarcasm: It sure feels like you're bashing URM's.

People on SDN go around saying how unqualified so many URM's are for med school, and how many of them should be nowhere near med school, and claim that they can't graduate from med school anyway, and tell them how low their board scores are, and how some URM's are biologically incapable of the highest mental processes and we should just accept that, and yadayadayada.

But URM's aren't supposed to feel bashed? We aren't supposed to feel scared as **** that we might end up with people like that in our classes--people who think we aren't worthy of our seats and took those seats from white people and Asians??

Not bashing urms, bashing the application process.



But don't worry, I know that despite my lack of racism, saying anything about this I'll be deemed a racist by your arguments...it's your cute little fallback

 

[sliceofbread136]

Those damn minorities. All they're good for is taking white ppl's med school seats and filing lawsuits.

/sarcasm


Come on man, how can you say this stuff? Do you really believe it? Do you really not think that there is value to having the physician workforce try to mirror the communities that it serves?

I never said anything that you just spouted out lol. It doesn't matter what I care about (which is why I didn't say anything about what I care about), it matters what adcoms care about. Do adcoms care about keeping diverse doctors? Maybe a little bit. Do adcoms care about not being sued/having bad publicity? I think they care about that alittle more.

This is such an easily debunked false equivalence. Odds are your doctor will be white.

The issue is that many of the rest of the humans in America have never had a doctor who looks like them. After a while this gets to you. As a URM, it's incredibly demoralizing and frustrating to have never had a physician like me I could look up to.

I'm not asking you to feel sorry for me, just to empathize with me. I'm asking you to understand and acknowledge this is a legitimate grievance among many which justify the URM system.

My doctor is asian. And unless you are martian I'm pretty sure there are plenty of doctors of your race around. Even if there weren't, I still don't see why I would care. Honestly, I don't remember ever having a white doctor and I'm fine.

 

[TipToad]

How many people actually really care about the race of their doctor? I've never meet anyone who cared...

Race matters because whether you choose to believe it or not, doctors who are the same race as their patients are more compassionate and understanding towards them and their needs.

Why do we need a physician population that reflects the demographic of the country? Here's why. I volunteered at a low income (we're talking 50-75% poverty level) clinic. A asian cancer patient came to me one day with a sheet of paper listing the things he needed to do to prepare for his colonoscopy. The paper was in English. That patient didn't read English and spoke very little of it. His (white) physician decided that this paper was sufficient. I translated the whole list of instructions for him.

The same thing happened every single day for hispanic patients.

I'm not saying that these physicians were poor doctors, but they were not in-tune to the needs of their patient demographic. URM doctors would be more understanding and cognizant.

 

[wolfie77]

Not bashing urms, bashing the application process.



But don't worry, I know that despite my lack of racism, saying anything about this I'll be deemed a racist by your arguments...it's your cute little fallback

I have called no one on this thread a racist. In fact, I said exactly the opposite about anti-URMers in one of my posts.

Don't know why you're preemptively attacking me....

 

[Freesia88]

Not the conclusion I was drawing but why do the scores matter at all? Provides an indication of how you'll perform in med school. So they're a factor in your application...

If you're an orm

And since ORM's have those high scores they are admitted waaaay more than other URM's which is what made them OVERREPRESENTED in the first place.

 

[Sandstorm]

So by that logic...

I'm against ANYONE gaining an advantage due to race, gender, etc...and that makes me a racist...

You're against Orms getting an advantage because of what you assume is their advantaged upbringing..


So you're a racist against ORMs.


*sheiek*. RACIST!!!!!!!!!


Riiiiiiduculous

 

[TipToad]

The same thing happens with sexual orientation. Try growing up as a gay kid in the South. Try asking your physician about LGBT issues with that hope that you won't be judged and will still receive proper care and correct information.

 

[wolfie77]

I never said anything that you just spouted out lol. It doesn't matter what I care about (which is why I didn't say anything about what I care about), it matters what adcoms care about. Do adcoms care about keeping diverse doctors? Maybe a little bit. Do adcoms care about not being sued/having bad publicity? I think they care about that alittle more.



My doctor is asian. And unless you are martian I'm pretty sure there are plenty of doctors of your race around. Even if there weren't, I still don't see why I would care. Honestly, I don't remember ever having a white doctor and I'm fine.

1) in my experience, adcom members have tended to have quite a few minorities on them leading me to believe they have a more sincere interest in a diverse workforce....but perhaps this is just in large urban centers. or perhaps you're just cynical.

2) Well I guess it's just not as easy for URM's to go live in post racial lalaland. In our realities, race is real and most of us admit to caring about it because it matters in our lives.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Race matters because whether you choose to believe it or not, doctors who are the same race as their patients are more compassionate and understanding towards them and their needs.

Why do we need a physician population that reflects the demographic of the country? Here's why. I volunteered at a low income (we're talking 50-75% poverty level) clinic. A asian cancer patient came to me one day with a sheet of paper listing the things he needed to do to prepare for his colonoscopy. The paper was in English. That patient didn't read English and spoke very little of it. His (white) physician decided that this paper was sufficient. I translated the whole list of instructions for him.

The same thing happened every single day for hispanic patients.

I'm not saying that these physicians were poor doctors, but they were not in-tune to the needs of their patient demographic. URM doctors would be more understanding and cognizant.

I spent alot of time in a predominately black psychiatric emergency hospital. The doctor was asian, and he did a great job. The thing is anecdotes don't prove points.

 

[wolfie77]

I spent alot of time in a predominately black psychiatric emergency hospital. The doctor was asian, and he did a great job. The thing is anecdotes don't prove points.

data: http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/05/27/race.empathy/index.html

 

[sliceofbread136]

1) in my experience, adcom members have tended to have quite a few minorities on them leading me to believe they have a more sincere interest in a diverse workforce....but perhaps this is just in large urban centers. or perhaps you're just cynical.

2) Well I guess it's just not as easy for URM's to go live in post racial lalaland. In our realities, race is real and most of us admit to caring about it because it matters in our lives.

1) Yup, I am very cynical. I still think without accreditation issues, bad publicity, and other legal problems there would be significantly less of a URM advantage.

2) Well I try to not generalize people based on factors like race, weight, looks etc. I guess this is just me being ignorant though...

 

[wolfie77]

1) Yup, I am very cynical. I still think without accreditation issues, bad publicity, and other legal problems there would be significantly less of a URM advantage.

2) Well I try to not generalize people based on factors like race, weight, looks etc. I guess this is just me being ignorant though...

Again with this, it's as if anti-URMers are obsessed with making sure everyone knows they're not racist or ignorant.

So many anti-URM comments go something like this:

URM sucks because XYZ.

Followed by preemptive declaration about how they're not racist or about how they're going to be unfairly perceived as racist.

I, for one, don't think you're racist because you're anti URM.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Again with this, it's as if anti-URMers are obsessed with making sure everyone knows they're not racist or ignorant.

So many anti-URM comments go something like this:

URM sucks because XYZ.

Followed by preemptive declaration about how they're not racist or about how they're going to be unfairly perceived as racist.

I, for one, don't think you're racist because you're anti URM.

I'm not anti-urm advantage at all, I just think the reasons behind aren't as glorious as others are saying.

 

[wolfie77]

I'm not anti-urm advantage at all, I just think the reasons behind aren't as glorious as others are saying.

So, basically you're a contrarian for the fun of it.

 

[sliceofbread136]

So, basically you're a contrarian for the fun of it.

Sure, whatever you want