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Title says it all.
How often do you think about dropping out?
- Thread starter Mr Roboto
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If I failed an exam in medical school including any of the steps, I would drop out.
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I thought about it very seriously second year of med school, but the debt scared me. I thought, "It will get better after step I." And it did - third and fourth year were pretty awesome. And then there was the excitement of getting into a residency, and matching to a sweet program, which was great.
Intern year went by fast and was so busy. Enjoyed it for most of the year. There were a few bumps that made me think "Boy, I wish I could quit" but mainly the chance to operate kept me occupied. First rotation of second year was great. But since then there have been more bumps. And boulders. And down right precipices and cliffs. And now I think about quitting pretty much constantly. The debt still scares me, and it's grown since second year of med school. If I could quit today, I would. Walk away without a second look back.
It's not the hours. Long hours are fine when you're busy operating or actually making a difference. It's not my residency; I couldn't imagine a better group of people. My fellow residents are amazing. The teaching is fine and we are operating early and often. And it's not the paperwork, mostly. It's just something that has to be done.
It's the absolute BS. Constant evaluation by everyone, even those that have no knowledge or right to judge. It's the sucking up. The taking the fall for things that aren't your fault because, hey, you're the doctor. You fix it.
It's that one nurse who misheard and you're reported to the program director. One bad outcome that you didn't cause and you're sued. One borderline patient and you're fired. And every mistake you make or someone makes for you, you wonder if it will be the one that leads to a bad outcome for the patient; or the one that gets you called out on your eval or your name all over the internet in bad reviews; or the one that gets you sued.
But, hey, kids, the medical field is great. Come on in.
Intern year went by fast and was so busy. Enjoyed it for most of the year. There were a few bumps that made me think "Boy, I wish I could quit" but mainly the chance to operate kept me occupied. First rotation of second year was great. But since then there have been more bumps. And boulders. And down right precipices and cliffs. And now I think about quitting pretty much constantly. The debt still scares me, and it's grown since second year of med school. If I could quit today, I would. Walk away without a second look back.
It's not the hours. Long hours are fine when you're busy operating or actually making a difference. It's not my residency; I couldn't imagine a better group of people. My fellow residents are amazing. The teaching is fine and we are operating early and often. And it's not the paperwork, mostly. It's just something that has to be done.
It's the absolute BS. Constant evaluation by everyone, even those that have no knowledge or right to judge. It's the sucking up. The taking the fall for things that aren't your fault because, hey, you're the doctor. You fix it.
It's that one nurse who misheard and you're reported to the program director. One bad outcome that you didn't cause and you're sued. One borderline patient and you're fired. And every mistake you make or someone makes for you, you wonder if it will be the one that leads to a bad outcome for the patient; or the one that gets you called out on your eval or your name all over the internet in bad reviews; or the one that gets you sued.
But, hey, kids, the medical field is great. Come on in.
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The nihilistic approach of " Nothing really matters anyway. " was never stronger than since I entered the Medical field. It's the only anchor that keeps me on my path often times, because there are way too many issues to be bothered by otherwise.
Some people don't have many interests besides Medicine - they say they do, but they don't.
It's good for them, because they are the ones who can truly focus on Medicine day and night, whether it's morning or evening, Monday or weekend - they simply don't mind.
But for all the persons out there like me, who have a lot of interests besides Medicine ( not because we would like to choose a different career, but simply because we are passionate about many other things, and the time is not enough in a lifetime to pursue all of them, I don't care what you think ) , it is essential for us to adopt a mindset that makes us let go and be more Zen about life, so having a bit of a nihilistic approach toward things doesn't hurt, because it allows you to not take yourself so seriously, not take your thoughts so seriously, completely eliminate every distraction that comes in your way and simply focus on learning that Histology, because those hours you could spend doing something else don't matter at all, time and space are illusions, so even thought you think you'd be happier surfing in Hawaii, that simply doesn't matter, you're just as well studying Histology here, because nothing's such a big drama in life anyway.
If you think the above text is strange, just lighten up - Get your head in the game : life is strange.
You'll discover great ways to handle difficulties if you dare to be strange, to think outside of the box.
You know when kids are saying all those weird things and everyone finds them adorable and clever ?
It's kinda ironic that people criticize you for the same thing when you're an adult.
This is why you don't have to seek for approval - just cultivate the thoughts that work best for you.
As long as it's effective, it doesn't matter if it's insane.
Some people don't have many interests besides Medicine - they say they do, but they don't.
It's good for them, because they are the ones who can truly focus on Medicine day and night, whether it's morning or evening, Monday or weekend - they simply don't mind.
But for all the persons out there like me, who have a lot of interests besides Medicine ( not because we would like to choose a different career, but simply because we are passionate about many other things, and the time is not enough in a lifetime to pursue all of them, I don't care what you think ) , it is essential for us to adopt a mindset that makes us let go and be more Zen about life, so having a bit of a nihilistic approach toward things doesn't hurt, because it allows you to not take yourself so seriously, not take your thoughts so seriously, completely eliminate every distraction that comes in your way and simply focus on learning that Histology, because those hours you could spend doing something else don't matter at all, time and space are illusions, so even thought you think you'd be happier surfing in Hawaii, that simply doesn't matter, you're just as well studying Histology here, because nothing's such a big drama in life anyway.
If you think the above text is strange, just lighten up - Get your head in the game : life is strange.
You'll discover great ways to handle difficulties if you dare to be strange, to think outside of the box.
You know when kids are saying all those weird things and everyone finds them adorable and clever ?
It's kinda ironic that people criticize you for the same thing when you're an adult.
This is why you don't have to seek for approval - just cultivate the thoughts that work best for you.
As long as it's effective, it doesn't matter if it's insane.
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The genius corner is that way.
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Never - they'll have to drag me out kicking and screaming if I am ever to leave this profession. I tried a lot of stuff before med school, and arrived here by process of elimination, so no matter how "bad" it gets, I know this is where I'm supposed to be, and also usually I can find a patient or colleague who has it worse. Fun significantly increases when clinical experiences start
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Never ever. It was a struggle to get in and it's really not that bad. The Med school stress/dread some students feel would be much less with multiple years of working experience, paying bills, etc. imo. I don't mean to talk down to anyone but everything has its ups/downs and things you like/don't like as well as things you can't control. The stress of Med school is not that different than many other fields. Also just having one thing to worry about/focus on is so much nicer (even when it sucks) than having to juggle multiple things. That said, unless you've experienced it I don't expect other students to think this way. Especially the young student whose basically gone straight from college to Med school. I would have probably felt the same way if I took that path.
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This resonates well with me, cheers
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There was a couple month span when it was a gnawing thought in the back of my mind. I worked for a while before med school, and going from making a decent paycheck with plenty of time to hang out with my SO and friends and do everything else I wanted to paying as much each year for 4 years with minimal time for anything outside of medicine and feeling like my life was wasting away in a cubicle started to eat away at me. Then I realized that even if I dropped out, I'd still have to find something to do for the rest of my life that I'd likely get bored with relatively quickly as the thing I was most passionate about isn't very feasible once you hit a certain age. I pretty much took @Slytheryn 's view for the majority of the first 2 years until I could finally start rotations, and I'm glad I stuck it out. 3rd year has been infinitely better than pre-clinical years (in every way). Even with some of the administrative and political bs, actually treating patients and seeing them get better makes those years of pre-clinical misery completely worth it.
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A lot of how we perceive life is our own inward affect. I made a conscious decision when I was in the most miserable days that I would try to be happy. Smile. List 5 things that you are thankful for in life. Tell yourself you're going to have a great day, you can handle anything, and everything seems less overwhelming.
Gets into an interesting philosophical discussion about reality vs perception a la Inception, The Matrix, Black Mirror, etc.
I just tell myself it could always be a hell of a lot worse. And frankly I don't know what I could do to make it that much better. Changing paths offers a lot of bad scenarios and not very many better ones.
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First semester, during anatomy-- often.
Since then (I'm a third year)-- never.
Since then (I'm a third year)-- never.
Its usually not medical school that makes people miserable, its their life outside of school that is the reason. Most pre-meds don't have social lives outside of school and think medical school will ameliorate that emptiness once they get accepted and are in. To the OP whether its lack of hobbies, lack of girls, or lack of fun, etc you have to make a concerted effort to make it better. Like Kobe Byrant once said in a basketball camp talking to the top high school prospects in the country "Don't rely on basketball for your happiness, cause its not going to happen." Yes, making tons of money, getting to play a game that most people love to play in their spare time, and getting tons of attention. Those things do not bring happiness. Medical school in itself is not suppose to bring you total happiness. You need to find other things that will also make you happy.
Med school has a way of crushing your soul from time to time. When you put in 50+ hours for one exam while sacrificing sleep, exercise, proper eating, hobbies, and overall livelihood and still fail (we all have our own version of failure, even if it's "passing") -- it's hard to not want to say "**** this."
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Every ****ing day. I've hated the vast majority of rotations with only a couple I found tolerable. Wasting a year of my life on **** I hate has been terrible. Don't get me wrong I see the value of learning in multiple fields and get out what I can from it but I despise what the inner me sees as a colossal waste of time
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Im a 4th year who has been on vacation for the last 3 months and its been the happiest in a while. Seriously annoyed at the fact I still have a whole residency ahead of me. Would honestly quit today if I had an alternative career lined up that would eliminate my debt.
As someone else said, its not that med school is hard. I haven't struggled to do well. I just hate the politics and time sink.
As someone else said, its not that med school is hard. I haven't struggled to do well. I just hate the politics and time sink.
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Love this. Ive been a nurse for 6 years working full-time while finishing bachelor's/taking pre-reqs/raising kids. Absolutely cannot wait now to be able to focus on school (and my family).
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Dont be deluded many of the unhappy have had many work experiences and careers. Wouldnt say that all that hate the BS just dont know the real world any better.
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Deluded seems a little intense. I've not romanticized the idea of medical school and residency, but, I am pretty optimistic I will remain happy with my choice. I've talked to a lot of physician friends and tried to analyze every variable for my family and I.
Edit:. Did not mean to imply everyone who regretted their decision were people who had never been in the "real world". I liked his/her post because of how is resonated with me.
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Can't agree with this more. Your character get scrutinized by your attendings base on the smallest thing that was heard on the floor any substantial evidence.
I believe many people would opt out of residency, if they can work as a PA or NP with their DO/MD degree fresh out of medical school. But as mentioned before, a lot of people have a debt so this may not even be an option. Medical students should wait until residency to really answer this question, because residency is totally different experience. I enjoyed medical school, but residency is mentally brutal. I definitely would not recommend medicine to any of my family member. Not worth the suffering.
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Yup, I was a nurse. Medical school sucks way, way more to me than being a FT nurse and a full-time undergrad (although I don't have kids).
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Honestly only once so far and that was during MSK for anatomy. I had no idea how to study for anatomy, didn't know how to juggle this with physio/embryo/histology, and the result was me being the most burned out I'd ever felt in my life. Learned from this, learned how to take things with a grain of salt, learned how to manage time, and now things are looking up.
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Watch Office Space. The fear of the cubicle life helps me move forward.
Something else, might sound pretentious, I don't want to work for someone who is not as smart, or smarter than me. Imagine having to work for the boss's son. Your colleagues and superiors in medicine always have something they can genuinely teach you.
Something else, might sound pretentious, I don't want to work for someone who is not as smart, or smarter than me. Imagine having to work for the boss's son. Your colleagues and superiors in medicine always have something they can genuinely teach you.
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I had these thoughts at times, but I know in the back of my mind this is what I want and I never would have really dropped out. the thoughts of dropping out were always "acute" for me, since whenever the stressor that brought them on passed, I'd go back to feeling happy, until the next major stressor. I'm hoping it's just a cycle that a lot of people feel in the pre-clinical years, and I suspect I'll be much happier in 3rd year (actually i'm pretty confident in that).
...though i'm in the semester before Step 1 now and the stress is beyond real. Just want this test to be over with already. It's all you hear about for the first couple years and the pressure I feel to do well really sucks. just keep going.
...though i'm in the semester before Step 1 now and the stress is beyond real. Just want this test to be over with already. It's all you hear about for the first couple years and the pressure I feel to do well really sucks. just keep going.
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It will get better after residency if you find an out-patient place to work/with a small group. I wouldn't know, just assuming.
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Let's see... I worked as a home health CNA for two years. Part time, granted, librarian for three years. I have had
part time jobs rolling sod and as a dishwasher. And, of course, I did the part time whole tutor/TA circuit for 7 years or so, which was anywhere from 20-50 hours/week.
Nope, don't think it"real world" experience or lack thereof that makes me contemplate quitting. It's that the BS really does suck that much. There is no comparison. Oh, you're a dishwasher and someone complains about you? You find another job. You aren't sued for your livelihood, molested by patients, called a murderer, and think you could be *lucky* to find a dishwashing job when you're 200k in debt.
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Is this really a concern you have? I'm only a student but it was my understanding that to get fired from a residency program you have to really royally screw something up.
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Never. Love medicine. I also took 3 years before med school working in research, so I never wonder about the grass being greener on the other side. I also failed step 1 since I decided having a baby in med school is a good idea lol. When I failed, I felt terrible, but I knew the only way to go was forward bc I have to be a doc, not bc of the debt, but bc I can't see myself doing anything else right now. Surprisingly, I got more interview invites than I can attend, so life is good again.
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I've worked full time jobs all through high school, all through undergrad, and 2 years following undergrad. Everything from the grocery store, to IT, to research labs, and eventually healthcare. There were even a few times where I worked multiple jobs at once.
The "you just haven't experienced what working life is like" is the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Sure, work can be kind of stressful, but nothing even close to medical school. It probably actually stems from a lot of medical students being sheltered by their parents. I'm six figures in debt, if I fail out or fail boards, then that's it. I don't have family to pay off my debt for me.
Never, Medical School is not that bad. It's a lot of work, but its very manageable if you stay on top of it. Waking up everyday going to a desk job for 10 hours that you absolutely hate just to pay the bills is way worse.
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It wouldn't be usual to be fired from residency for something less than a really big screw-up, but it can and does happen. There are malignant places out there. Just do a quick search here and you'll find enough stories to scare you. And remember - usually for that one big screw up, multiple other people have screwed up in smaller ways ( Swiss cheese model), and all of a sudden you can find yourself facing pretty stiff consequences for something that you may not have been able to prevent or change.
And, yes, it could be possible for a single very determined or well connected patient to get someone fired from residency. Not common or probable, but possible.
But speaking in generalities, I wasn't necessarily speaking only of being fired from residency, but also of being fired from taking care of that particular patient. Which, when in residency, can be yet another black mark in your folder and another ding to your reputation, when all you really want to do is keep your head down. And when an attending can mean loss of revenue, libel, slander, etc. These I have seen happen.
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There was a period during MS2 (IMO by far the worst part of training thus far, and I'm now a PGY-2) when I was seriously considering quitting about once a week. I was hating the work, hating life, stressed, not fulfilled, etc.. I think these sentiments aren't uncommon just based on anecdotal discussions with peers and the kinds of stuff you see on here.
Ultimately, if you got into medicine for the right reasons - which I would consider to be an interest in the biological sciences and human physiology, wanting to take care of folks, and being interested in always learning, updating your knowledge, etc. - then you will enjoy medicine. Portions of your training will suck, but at the end of it all you will likely be glad that you're in the career. I love and am fulfilled by my work now, and I know that I'm going to love being a physician. That wasn't always the case.
If you went into medicine for "the money" or "the prestige," then yeah, you're likely not going to find the grueling process worth it. I think people need more substantive reasons for pushing through a lot of the nonsense of medical training beyond those things.
However, it does get better - especially once you figure out what you want to do and start training in that field specifically. You're spending less time doing things that you don't want to do/don't really care about and substantially more time preparing yourself to take care of patients independently (which I personally find very motivating). I think it's incredibly important to remember that MS1 and MS2 aren't the same thing as practicing as a physician. Hell, MS3/MS4/residency aren't even necessarily the same thing as practicing as a physician depending on what you end up doing. Keep your eye on the prize, and as long as you think you will be fulfilled by the core work and are honest with yourself with respect to what interests you and what you want out of this career, you will be fine.
Ultimately, if you got into medicine for the right reasons - which I would consider to be an interest in the biological sciences and human physiology, wanting to take care of folks, and being interested in always learning, updating your knowledge, etc. - then you will enjoy medicine. Portions of your training will suck, but at the end of it all you will likely be glad that you're in the career. I love and am fulfilled by my work now, and I know that I'm going to love being a physician. That wasn't always the case.
If you went into medicine for "the money" or "the prestige," then yeah, you're likely not going to find the grueling process worth it. I think people need more substantive reasons for pushing through a lot of the nonsense of medical training beyond those things.
However, it does get better - especially once you figure out what you want to do and start training in that field specifically. You're spending less time doing things that you don't want to do/don't really care about and substantially more time preparing yourself to take care of patients independently (which I personally find very motivating). I think it's incredibly important to remember that MS1 and MS2 aren't the same thing as practicing as a physician. Hell, MS3/MS4/residency aren't even necessarily the same thing as practicing as a physician depending on what you end up doing. Keep your eye on the prize, and as long as you think you will be fulfilled by the core work and are honest with yourself with respect to what interests you and what you want out of this career, you will be fine.
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You said it yourself, most medical students haven't worked a day in their lives. It's perfectly fair to suspect that you fall into the category of "most," statistically speaking, since I don't really know you. Just going off of firsthand observation, it's those very same aforementioned "sheltered" medical students that seem to respond the worst when the going gets rough.
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I am with you on the office space analogy but the second paragraph too often hasn't been the case. I think some older attendings just internalized crap they learned back in the day and are simply incapable of considering the alternatives. So you end up learning things you wish you hadn't.
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I never lived what others would call a "balanced" lifestyle. Always over the top for many, so it all depends on who is judging.
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Seriously, no. I'd never quit. I am acutely aware that I am relatively powerless and in a very precarious position until after I complete at least one year of residency, where a serious illness or a family crisis or a malignant preceptor could be enough to ruin everything. I hate the student role, with all its vulnerability and the lack of the resources and standing that I'd become accustomed to as a mid-career professional OR nurse.
There is a phenomenon where, when one is afraid of heights, that sometimes when faced with the fear, there is an intrusive thought that says "Jump!" The anxiety about how things could go wrong can be so great that there is a crazy thought that if you just embrace the disaster, at least the anxiety about it will be discharged.
I think that is a lot of the thoughts that I have about leaving medical school. I am so afraid that something could happen that would wreck it, that I sometimes fantasize about what I would do if it did. I have a series of well thought out back up plans, from OTR truck driving to going to beauty school and opening a salon. These are all absurd, impractical, and I'd hate them. I'm doing the thing that I'm supposed to be doing, finally.
So, I've been in precarious positions often enough to have learned, both by experience and observation, that resisting that urge to quit just to feel better is 90% of the battle. If you just refuse to let go, it is very hard to actually fall off this cliff. I know that when I am faced with problems that seem insurmountable, if I just don't let that scare me, if I just sincerely try my best, that will actually be enough to get me past each hurdle. (Unless it really isn't, but I will cope with that situation if it ever arises. Every moment wasted worrying about it is a moment stolen from the time I need to do the work to make sure it never happens.)
I think this is what "grit" means. It is staring down the things that scare you, feeling how scary they are, and just holding your position any way. Not hurting yourself out of fear that something could hurt you.
But no, I would never quit. It is more that I sometimes consider that it could be taken away. I think if you have any part of you saying "Hey, I don't know if I really want to be doing this..." then that is a voice you should listen to sooner than later. Or at least talk through with a trusted confidante or counselor.
There is a phenomenon where, when one is afraid of heights, that sometimes when faced with the fear, there is an intrusive thought that says "Jump!" The anxiety about how things could go wrong can be so great that there is a crazy thought that if you just embrace the disaster, at least the anxiety about it will be discharged.
I think that is a lot of the thoughts that I have about leaving medical school. I am so afraid that something could happen that would wreck it, that I sometimes fantasize about what I would do if it did. I have a series of well thought out back up plans, from OTR truck driving to going to beauty school and opening a salon. These are all absurd, impractical, and I'd hate them. I'm doing the thing that I'm supposed to be doing, finally.
So, I've been in precarious positions often enough to have learned, both by experience and observation, that resisting that urge to quit just to feel better is 90% of the battle. If you just refuse to let go, it is very hard to actually fall off this cliff. I know that when I am faced with problems that seem insurmountable, if I just don't let that scare me, if I just sincerely try my best, that will actually be enough to get me past each hurdle. (Unless it really isn't, but I will cope with that situation if it ever arises. Every moment wasted worrying about it is a moment stolen from the time I need to do the work to make sure it never happens.)
I think this is what "grit" means. It is staring down the things that scare you, feeling how scary they are, and just holding your position any way. Not hurting yourself out of fear that something could hurt you.
But no, I would never quit. It is more that I sometimes consider that it could be taken away. I think if you have any part of you saying "Hey, I don't know if I really want to be doing this..." then that is a voice you should listen to sooner than later. Or at least talk through with a trusted confidante or counselor.
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Depends on what you mean by balanced, I guess. I study a lot, but I manage to eat healthy, go the gym every day, and sleep 9-10 hours a night. I go out with friends ~once a week, but that's plenty for me.
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I've had probably over a dozen jobs before med school, 2 or 3 of which could have been legitimate "careers" if I'd really wanted them to become that (EMT, landscaping, research, etc.). I actually think working and making a decent paycheck is part of what gave me those doubts. My thought was "why did I leave a decently paying job to spend 55-60k/year to sit in a cubicle and stare at Robbins for 10 hours a day and trying to memorize minutiae I will likely never use again after tests/boards." If I hadn't worked before, I wouldn't know what a real paycheck looked like or how good living independently, without debt, could feel. The whole "life before med school" thing can work for and against people. For those who really enjoy medicine, they get a taste of how much the real world can suck. For those who enjoy other careers and go into med for other reasons, going to med school and jumping through the seemingly endless hoops before you ever get any real autonomy can make them realize how good they had it before.
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Did you actually enjoy those previous careers though? If you could see yourself doing that for 40-50 years, why quit? Somehow you had to think that medicine was a better deal overall. Doesn't make sense otherwise.
If, on the other hand, your opinion changed after seeing what medicine was actually like, then I could see that. Luring in naive unsuspecting pre-meds who don't know any better with promises of prestige and high salary and trapping them behind a wall of debt is a big part of what keeps the American healthcare machine running.
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It really can go both ways. In some cases there's a naivety of people not really understanding what a working life really entails, but many times people want to quit because they realize they were far happier in their previous career.
The best part about a boring 9-5 is that when you're home, you're actually home. You get to enjoy your evenings and weekends. There's no exam on the horizon that determines your earning potential for the rest of your life and you actually get to enjoy your youthful adult years.
