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How Old Is Too Old to Go to Medical School?
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Why should you necessarily retire if you like what you do and are able to do it? I know FP docs practicing into late 70's and on. Not everyone is broken down to nothing by 80. And you can still do a lot working PT if you need to do so.
Primary care, where they need PCPs, that is not a bad way to live at all--unless for some reason, you actually hate it. I read of people putting it down; but I like what @Blue Dog says. 'It's the ultimate lifestyle specialty.' He's got the right idea.
I have really never hated anything I have done in healthcare so far. I've loathed some really bad attitudes from some people in healthcare; but those that are together and like teamwork, they make up for the downers. Thank God.
Primary care, where they need PCPs, that is not a bad way to live at all--unless for some reason, you actually hate it. I read of people putting it down; but I like what @Blue Dog says. 'It's the ultimate lifestyle specialty.' He's got the right idea.
I have really never hated anything I have done in healthcare so far. I've loathed some really bad attitudes from some people in healthcare; but those that are together and like teamwork, they make up for the downers. Thank God.
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The aging brain. As an organic vascular gelatinous ball of electricity has a shelf life. And diffuse cortical atrophy is an inevitable thing. That varies to be sure. Exercise, eating right, keeping it learning new things...all of these help extend the useful life of your machine.
The rest is luck. And if we were actuarial analysts and not looking for warm fuzzy stories we might be more cautious in our projections to the applicant public than keeping up the hallmark appearances of everyone's a winner.
Mother Nature, indifferent bitch that she is. Has other things to say about what group of people are useful, active or even alive into their later years.
The rest is luck. And if we were actuarial analysts and not looking for warm fuzzy stories we might be more cautious in our projections to the applicant public than keeping up the hallmark appearances of everyone's a winner.
Mother Nature, indifferent bitch that she is. Has other things to say about what group of people are useful, active or even alive into their later years.
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http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/06/18/414912417/when-should-surgeons-stop-operating
tl;dr: an evaluation is more accurate than a birthday
tl;dr: an evaluation is more accurate than a birthday
It’s an interesting article.
OK, I felt terrible b/c the image of this made be snicker for a second, ".... Still another surgeon fell asleep while performing a procedure." In reality, it's totally not funny, at all; but I certainly think others in the OR would notice.
“While it may sound like a good option for senior surgeons, the program has had its difficulties. For one, not a single doctor has stepped forward to take the test.
"However, we've learned that a number of physicians have opted to retire when threatened to be put through our program," Katlic says.
Hmm, need to know more about this or these kinds of tests.
The following example for the article, however, is a bit unfair, b/c it seems to apply mostly to people in their 90's and/or those that have some serious medical issue, or people that don't regularly see their physicians or ophthalmologists. These are the folks that I have found fall into the following category: ".... We all know people in our families who are driving that shouldn't be — but if you speak to them, they think they are perfectly fine."
Sadly, even if you are productive and keep busy and are considered “of a certain age,” you are still considered expendable by any number of people in western society--something that is taught in our society. As a macabre example, I recently read online that a vital, productive woman, who continued working part time at the local paper, was burglarized and needlessly murdered in her own home. She was 85 and still living life to the fullest. I wonder, however, if she had been more senile, maybe the burglars would have let her live??? Damned if your 80+ and fit, and damned if you are 80+ and not.
Whatever anyone else thinks of her, I like Dr. Christiane Northup's perspective on aging--and even being careful with the use of the word age/aging. I have a ways to go, but I want to be like her, staying vital and going strong. Age/aging is much about a mindset for people, and if they step out of that mindset, they are freer to live and be productive—and amazingly that includes helping others.
Sadly I often think that there are those that are all hype on reducing world population and such, and some number of these folks are more apt to be ageistic or anti-reproductive in their thinking. Seriously, such a worldview helps the whole ageism thing along.
I had never heard of the movie Logan's Run, and when I stumbled upon it, it seemed lame compared with Star Wars or any decent science fiction movie I had seen. As I watched it out of some morbid curiosity, I saw the intended influences and connections in thinking—set into the ridiculousness of ending peoples’ lives at age 30 by a computer. Talk about going out with a bang. It's though-provoking for us today; since in reality the anti-age thinking is totally inculcated into our culture and media influences from youth. Sure some of these influences are subliminal, but many are just outright overt.
Fight the dystopia thinking. We aren't like viruses, somewhere in the gray area between living and nonliving. But it is as if we are programed to believe that the more we move through various stages of development, the more like viruses we become. That of course would be beyond contradictory in terms of the genetic biological criteria constituting human life. It's an absurdity that I am sure would amuse Einstein or even Francis Collins today.
OK, I felt terrible b/c the image of this made be snicker for a second, ".... Still another surgeon fell asleep while performing a procedure." In reality, it's totally not funny, at all; but I certainly think others in the OR would notice.
“While it may sound like a good option for senior surgeons, the program has had its difficulties. For one, not a single doctor has stepped forward to take the test.
"However, we've learned that a number of physicians have opted to retire when threatened to be put through our program," Katlic says.
Hmm, need to know more about this or these kinds of tests.
The following example for the article, however, is a bit unfair, b/c it seems to apply mostly to people in their 90's and/or those that have some serious medical issue, or people that don't regularly see their physicians or ophthalmologists. These are the folks that I have found fall into the following category: ".... We all know people in our families who are driving that shouldn't be — but if you speak to them, they think they are perfectly fine."
Sadly, even if you are productive and keep busy and are considered “of a certain age,” you are still considered expendable by any number of people in western society--something that is taught in our society. As a macabre example, I recently read online that a vital, productive woman, who continued working part time at the local paper, was burglarized and needlessly murdered in her own home. She was 85 and still living life to the fullest. I wonder, however, if she had been more senile, maybe the burglars would have let her live??? Damned if your 80+ and fit, and damned if you are 80+ and not.
Whatever anyone else thinks of her, I like Dr. Christiane Northup's perspective on aging--and even being careful with the use of the word age/aging. I have a ways to go, but I want to be like her, staying vital and going strong. Age/aging is much about a mindset for people, and if they step out of that mindset, they are freer to live and be productive—and amazingly that includes helping others.
Sadly I often think that there are those that are all hype on reducing world population and such, and some number of these folks are more apt to be ageistic or anti-reproductive in their thinking. Seriously, such a worldview helps the whole ageism thing along.
I had never heard of the movie Logan's Run, and when I stumbled upon it, it seemed lame compared with Star Wars or any decent science fiction movie I had seen. As I watched it out of some morbid curiosity, I saw the intended influences and connections in thinking—set into the ridiculousness of ending peoples’ lives at age 30 by a computer. Talk about going out with a bang. It's though-provoking for us today; since in reality the anti-age thinking is totally inculcated into our culture and media influences from youth. Sure some of these influences are subliminal, but many are just outright overt.
Fight the dystopia thinking. We aren't like viruses, somewhere in the gray area between living and nonliving. But it is as if we are programed to believe that the more we move through various stages of development, the more like viruses we become. That of course would be beyond contradictory in terms of the genetic biological criteria constituting human life. It's an absurdity that I am sure would amuse Einstein or even Francis Collins today.
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Okay... This thread made me feel so much better.
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This reminds me of both my grandfathers. They had an extremely low tolerance for boredom. They saw some of their peers retire and drool in front of the price is right all day for a decade (there are ways to stay active that don't involve working, but it can be hard for some people). My grandfather worked part time into his 70s and even started his own (low key) small business in his 80s.
I am thrilled to see a cat smile, but I just have to know. What happened to his/her ears?
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Literally death. Being dead is too old.
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Makes all the sense in the world- aging affects us all differently, some people might be shot by their late 50s while some can perform into their 70s.
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I am thrilled to see a cat smile, but I just have to know. What happened to his/her ears?
I don't I found this little picture on FB! I think its laying down on the sides!
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btw, this reminds me of jack lalanne. he died at 96 but was alert and active. i am sure he could have run a business or a program on a certain level even at that age. i am talking 96. he was still doing pushups in his last year of death. just like how that sikh guy was either the first or oldest to run full marathon in london a few years back. he was 106 or something. i forget. both of these men could have contributed something. imagine them 30 years younger at age 70. i am sure they were active productive adults. barring surgery, why couldn't a doc. practice general medicine or anything that does not really require dexterity and skilled manipulation?
http://www.jacklalanne.com/index.php?select=Jack
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At age 70 30% of your cohort will be dead. At 80 roughly half will be dead. So..of the people who aren't already dead by 70 a huge group of who's left are some state of dialysis or slowly dying from CHF etc.
You know...just...in regards to facts.
You know...just...in regards to facts.
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thx for reminding me how short life is and that i am going to die one day anyway. yay me! yay facts!
Quite curious about these comments, but as all things everyone has there own opinions... I am retired military so for pre-med it was not much of an option for myself, as it does put a strain on you the many fields of education, and the military doesn't appoint you much time to get a degree you desire. I didn't come in as a medical Soldier lol...but loved medical since I was young. I am 31 and considering pre-med in the summer I believe that I can and will become a medical doctor. I am glad to be apart of this forum and hopefully will receive much needed information and network.
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Having extensive experience with older patients and physicians on both a physiological and cognitive level, aging is not a linear function that is consistent across all individuals. A person at 70 can have the same capabilities as someone who is 40. I've seen physicians practicing at 80 that moved a little slower but were brilliant and kept up with the latest stuff better than the 30 something docs. I've also seen docs in their 40's who looked and acted 90. That said, there are some 60yo docs that probably should retire.
Research has shown that there are advantages at having diversity among students in med school. Age is part of that diversity. It's kind of funny working with 20 something kids who can't tie their shoes without technology. So is there a specific age, IMO NO. Perhaps the better question is should particular personality types, IQ, and other variables factor into med school admission?
Research has shown that there are advantages at having diversity among students in med school. Age is part of that diversity. It's kind of funny working with 20 something kids who can't tie their shoes without technology. So is there a specific age, IMO NO. Perhaps the better question is should particular personality types, IQ, and other variables factor into med school admission?
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Yeah. Aging doesn't exist. I'm as sparkly and new as when I was 22. And you can be too. If you believe that dreams come true... or whatever little lefty bull****ty sing song thing that sounds cuddly and nice...but is notably useless where rubber is hitting road.
What research? How about idealogical diversity. Or is that the sieve that your implying. All the morally superior leftist people with codependent issues who make the truly good doctors. Because. They say the right things. And cry along with the studio audience on cue like f'n robots.
Man. F@ck all that noise.
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I'm far from being a "lefty" but age does teach one that working and learning with those who are different teaches you about diverse people who are ultimately your patients. It also exposes you to ideas that break stereotypes, like "all redecks are stupid, spit tobacco, and hate anyone not white or all Christians hate gay people." That increased understanding makes you a better doctor.
I absolutely think med school would be a horrible place if it was filled with all liberals or all conservatives. Now did anywhere I say someone should get in just because the med school needs one more xyz? Not at all, so reach down and pull those panties out because they are apparently a bit bunched up ur arse today.
All the best
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It is filled with leftists. As all universities. Also aging. Past 25 it's death perpetually knocking. The brain and body slowly decaying. I don't know that educational systems which pledge young doctor's exclusively to one career are worse. I can't say this in any real sense. Neither can anyone that I've seen adopt it as maxim and mantra.
And where is all this supposed evidence for diversity. The trouble with leftist agendas, which are inseparable from higher education's itself, is they go straight for identity tropes with relative oppression hierarchies immediately. There is no other Opinion allowed on this matter. Diversity is good. Because. But the right kind. Which goes without saying. Because.
If I'm punching at air with you personally then good. Good for you. You're not a zombie. But look around. We're surrounded. If it quacks like a Zombie, I'm swinging my shovel and asking questions later.
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Sure, there is an agenda by various groups and many major universities are more left leaning, not a big secret there. I don't have time to dig up the studies but they exist and are not done by left leaning groups. Part of the challenge found by one study was actually that left leaning people are more susceptible to groupthink where right leaning people tend to be more resistant to change even when it has shown beneficial. So we need various ideologies working together, but this thread is about age and not other ideologies, this I don't want to stray off topic.
Hi
PS Yes physically past 25 our body deteriorates but that is not at a linear rate and genes and superordinate goals impact the shortening of our telomeres.
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Absolutely. Medical school and training being one of the adverse choices. Good nutrition, relaxation and recreation, cultivating loving relationships and human community, exercise, managing stress rather than cultivating cultures of it.... all things medical training subverts with profound effectiveness.
It's like recommending professional fighting to the population at large. Or even high school or college football. You're going to pay a huge cost. You should do it don't know what else to do with yourself. But acting like age doesn't matter in these things or in medical training is not just disingenuous. It's patently false.
It's a really good job. But it's not like recommending a career as a professional yoga teacher, where maintaining the telomere length is a job hazard. Quite the opposite.
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I totally agree age absolutely does matter in relation to physical and cognitive functioning. That said even with both the same gpa and MCAT scores a healthy 40yo can on both fronts beat a 20yo morbidly obese kid who has a progressive alcohol/subst problem, which is an increasing problem among younger med students.
Thus my comment about a measure of cognitive function. It actually might be a better indicator of success than using age or even MCAT scores (even though the new MCAT weakly does some of that), but we would need research to determine what specific measures have predictive validity and what don't.
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Right and until a well defined science of exceptionalism, and how to select for it emerges, the old school measures in the horse trade will have to suffice. Or to use a human example--the NFL combine. Except for nerds. With a disturbing anti-social form of lefty religiosity one has to prove as one of the events.
We're being vetted for academic ability and rigor. Ability to socialize in hierarchy. Reliability under pressure. And passing the regressive lefty identity filter. The first three I can't see how they could do better within institutional orthodoxy. For them, age, brings more questions to answer. The last one we benefit from to the extent of our towing the line of demagoguery.
We're lucky they consider us. But I won't play identity politics to make the point that they should take us. Either you play that game all the time in it's religious context. Or you see the hypocrisy and cannot stomach it coming from yourself.
I generally prefer challenging situations for myself. So I like being an older student. But I can't say what I give to any group just by my demographic profile...without sounding like an @sshole. And yet you work against that notion for exactly the price of resounding consensus of being viewed as an @sshole. This is a sociocultural biomarker for a catastrophic failure of our society's cultural immune system against bull****. And the problem is escalating rapidly on campuses, to a truly frightening degree and effect.
And that's why I swing my shovel in the crowd. I might notice you're not a zombie if I noted you doing the same. If you're a comrade then good. I don't disagree with your f/u statements. Not to any contentious degree in any case. But you sounded like a Zombie General at first. And I suspect you're closer to a Gen X peer. So I felt an obligation to take you out. As there's both less hope for millennials and they're easily swayed with the Correct verbal signals. They scan for them like search engines and click like and dislike buttons in their heads without insight or perception or awareness or typically any depth of experience. The more highly educated and the more fancily educated the more Zombie they become.
Age should also bring more internal questions to the pre-med, for his/her own benefit. Am I in shape? How's my endurance? How do I manage stress? How much do I value these people in my life? Can I sacrifice what I have now? What are the health problems in my family tree? How would this effect my quality of life? Could I do other things and be happy?
There is a turning point in a median sense for how well suited we are as older people to medical training. But they don't select in a sophisticated way for this like the NFL scouts. They use the identity politics sieve. So... I see lot's of older colleagues struggling with the energetic costs. I only escaped that through rigorous yoga practice and good instinct for conserving my energy. But my age sure as **** has been a factor. And not the helpful sort. I also disavow (and frankly take a poop on) the notion that age is linear with experience or wisdom to off set the energetic disadvantage. Nope. We're just older wound up tight little freaks. I'm the same sweetie I was when I 12. I would be just as good as a younger person as I am now at what I do. #ModestyIsForMediocrePeople.
I will not propagate BS that doesn't help people and that isn't real. Admissions people will miss the key age questions. Most of them are the equivalent of physician librarians or quartermaster's far, far, far from the front lines. And all of them are lefty Zombie Lords. SDN nontraditional forum will sell inspiration stories. Trust me, I know. When I sold them they flew out the door like hotcakes. Likety-likes all the way down to Popular Posterville.
As an older person premed you're better off asking an experienced physical trainer what kind of shape you're in, than sampling the swath of unconscious deception here.
So Sayeth the Rogue Shepherd.
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Hmm, what is not prepackaged fluff? Bank account? Physical condition? Angry rants? I've read a lot of posts on SDN and you're are perhaps the angriest I've seen; perhaps anecdotal but never the less accurate.
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who me? Good. Marinate in it. You're too bland if I'm the angriest guy you now. Get some of this flavor.
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I'm intrigued by the utilitarian tilt of the idea that medical education should be geared towards those who have the capacity to do the greatest amount. Perhaps a general measure of this could be years of practice. If this is the case, it would seem that those that are younger would have greater utility with more potential years to practice while those who are older would have less utility with fewer years left to practice. This does not take into account physicians who decide to retire early after accumulating enough wealth or older folks who continue practicing long after the typical age of retirement. I wonder then if a useful question could be "the number of years a medical graduate should practice"? Just a thought...
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I don't like rhetorical exercises, even though it really really seems like a license should be required before people have kids, and even though I know for damn sure that a half dozen of the traditional kids who'll be graduating with me a month from now will never help anybody but themselves and never lift a finger to make anything work better and I'd like them to be retroactively rejected from this med school.
Even if we (as a profession) had the patience to apply rigor to definitions such as "what is quality? what quantifies contribution?" to be applied to med school admissions decisions, and had the will to prioritize progress on turning those definitions into policies instead of working on other things people care about, we definitely wouldn't be able to get enough agreement to apply those policies anywhere. Maybe we'd get a pub out of it, that nobody reads because it's boring.
In other words, it will continue to be up to each individual admissions director to accept or not accept students with or without age as a consideration.
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We're trying to quantify things that no one can quantify unless you want to make laws that everyone who graduates with a degree in a certain profession must stick with that profession. I'd guess that we're really splitting hairs over should maybe 10-20% of med students be allowed to enter med school. Not sure how many younger doctors don't practice for more than say 15yrs, but I'd bet it's probably higher than we think.
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I think if we're splitting hairs on something like the age of the matriculant, it is worth considering the career outcome on the other end. Retiring at 65 may not be the goal of a doctor entering medical school at 40 or 50. I remember reading about a surgeon that was still practicing at 102. But, I will accept that this may be tangential.
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Thank you for participating in mine, Midlife. I think the questions are worth considering but I understand if you do not. Remember, medicine (and all the sciences) are derived from a system of inquiry that evolved from rhetorical exercises.
I honestly cannot say. Most in my family tend to retire twice and work into their late 70s simply because there's nothing better to do. Minds are sharp as a tack. One of my aunts is 77. She retired last year and has been talking about going back to work. Some people just don't know how to not work. If they dont have a job to go to or position to hold, they dont know what to do with themselves. Pretty sure that I'll be working well into my 80s, too.
I doubt that I'd attempt med school after 50, though. People switch out careers all the time. If you're 50 and thinking about med school, go for it. Who am I to say what isn't feasible for another.
I doubt that I'd attempt med school after 50, though. People switch out careers all the time. If you're 50 and thinking about med school, go for it. Who am I to say what isn't feasible for another.
I'd say retirement is overrated if you don't have a purposeful plan, and if a person's health is filled w/multiple, co-morbid health issues of a fairly serious nature, that is probably what these folks are going to spend at least half of their remaining lives doing--that is, running to physicians and running around to tests and pharmaceutical demands. It is exhausting for them. Their lives still matter and should be there, but for them, retirement is a necessity, sadly.
All these people that think they will bust hump and retire early rich or really well-off, and therefore, they "win," are missing it big time. Once a person begins to struggle with managing multiple illnesses or complications from one heck of a serious illness, all their "winning" in the world won't matter. It's absolute insanity, at least in my view, to pick medicine, kill yourself to get on the inside of it and stay there, try to make your "whatever figure" and retire ASAP, b/c loving what you do does matter. (Btw loving what you do doesn't mean loving or even liking every single aspect of what you are doing--uh life is imperfect and bumps and problems and stress must be anticipated in any field or endeavor for that matter.)
So, if you can't find the joy in it--in spite of the vast amount of nonsense, bureaucratic BS, and just sheer aggravation, going into medicine for the bucks in order to hopefully retire early or relatively so, is just sad.
I would also venture to say that people that really like/love what they do and are into will be motivated to do an exceptional job, and they won't go through every night feeling demoralized. And healthcare and medicine can be very demoralizing for any number of reasons. Doesn't mean I have to get beaten up or caught up in feeling like a victim of the demoralization.
Winning is about enjoying wellness and helping to create that for others, regardless of what that may mean for a patient. Sometimes it means providing the best care and comfort measures as they prepare to face the end of their lives hear on earth. Sometimes it means a successful delivery of healthy mom and baby, or a successfully sustained transplant for a kid, or great disease management for those w/ any number of chronic illness. Sometimes it means checking a toddler out for an injury, suturing things up, making sure their are up to date on their immunizations, and helping parents better provide or protect their children. And the win is also something like getting that Rapid Cycler, BPD person to comply with their medicine and stay in treatment and therapy. That can be a major victory.
One is either into creating wellness and optimal health and states for individual and groups of patients, or one is not. Call it a calling. Don't call it a calling. To me, in order be happy in one's work, one looks at is as a calling, whereby, you put up with a lot of idiotic and frustrating stuff in order to fulfill that calling/purpose.
And the idea of becoming a physician b/c he or she calls all the shots is an "out there is left field" kind of notion. There are always others to whom one must answer--even attending physicians and department heads, which includes answering to the patients and bureaucrats and policies and such.
Above corrected b/c I wrote the ^ last night while being probably 75% awake.
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I realize this thread was started long ago, but this is so true! My dad runs 4 miles a day and he is 72! He won first place in a marathon at our church back home last year. Some of the men were considerably younger. He took 3rd place this year, he was nursing a back injury, however.
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I think you can be never too old to study
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>>>The doctor my parents could afford to send me to in Jr. High and High School for my frequent sinus infections and cracked and bleeding sinuses was still practicing in his early 90's -- he had Immigrated from Germany or Austria right before WW 1 to avoid the war, and had taught himself english and set up a nice medical practice -- By the time I saw him all the equipment in his practice was long since paid for and he gave credit to my parents for my treatment -- the treatment consisted of pharmaceutical grade cocaine and ephedra solution via a stainless steel nebulizer -- this would stop the bleeding and flush out the dried blood and mucus. I think he charged about $5 a treatment, and since my mother had lost her job as a teacher, and my fathers business had suffered a large penalty on a US Army Corps of Engineers Dam Exhibits contract, and we had no money to pay other than what I could get by making blue print copies or mowing lawns or shoveling snow the price was affordable. Since then I have run into a few other doctors who have completed medical school in their 60's and are still practicing now in their 80's -- If one is careful about what one eats(avoids restaurant food), is careful with their drinking water, uses quality vitamins and supplements, stays in the suburbs or near the edge of the city, does not engage in risky forms of exercise like bicycling on the highway, or white water rafting one can easily make it into the late 80's in good health.
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Being in it at 50 the greatest challenge with going back isn't as much the med school demands as the family demands with aging parents, wife, kids, etc. It's hard to say you can't be there when a family member is in the hospital and like it or not those things are a distraction while studying. Maturity does help with the clinical portion or things though. So how old is too old makes the greatest difference in competitive specialties.
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