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How old is too old to start med school?
Started by sga814
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you're missing one choice:
When you're dead.
that's my vote. Too old when you're growing mold 6 feet under.
When you're dead.
that's my vote. Too old when you're growing mold 6 feet under.
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I would think that financial considerations would have to play a part. If you're taking out $200,000 in loans that is. If you can pay for med school without loans, then the # of years practicing wouldn't really matter quite as much.
Yeah, I shudder when I think about taking on this much debt. It almost seems like Monopoly money at that point.
I'm just glad I get a chance to study medicine now as oppose to later on down the road when the cost of tuition becomes even more rediculously expensive.
Anyone know of the oldest med student to ever enroll? That would be crazee to be in class with a 60 to 70 year old classmate. Has it been done? If so, mad props for their wanting to do so though and the ability to still have a sharp mind.
There have definitely been allo students who have started in their 50s. I believe the US record was set by the osteo student below who started in his late 50s and graduated at 61:
"June 14, 2004
AMNews: June 21, 2004. 61-year-old graduates medical school ... American Medical News
Are you a little older than the average medical student? Come from a non-traditional background. Well take heart from the example of 61-year-old Clarence Nicodemus, who just became a Doctor of Osteopathy, after graduating from the Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medcine. According to the AMA, he is the oldest medical student in history."
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deleted77919
$200k is a lot of money, but is still less than the selling price of the average american house (which was $264,540 as of October 2004 according to the Federal House Financing Board, sorry the figure is a bit old, and yes, the mean is lower, but still over $200k).
So long as you can resist the urge to rack up a lot of debt (house, car, etc) upon graduation and live modestly for a while the debt really isn't as huge a burden as it seems.
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deleted77919
Double Post
i would say if it's something you really want to do and have the means to do it, then you're never too old to be a med student. for myself, however (i'm a 25 year old non-trad), I would say 30 would have been my cut off age where i would probably not have wanted to be changing careers with 7+ years of education ahead of me. although, even that cut off is based on my feelings as a 25 year old...maybe that would change if i were 30 too.
Why should student loan debt matter so much? You make your montly payments, pay your other bills, ect, ect. Besides, what are the lenders going to do if you die before you pay them off, dig you up?
I think starting it at 55-60 is crazy but that is because I would never do it. I'm hoping to be "enjoying" life at that point, not being a slave. But I agree with Shyrem, when you are too old you are dead.
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Residency isn't really education any more than being a young member of any profession is education. They just call it that and make the process a little more formalized.
Agree. You are a practicing doctor and are bringing home a paycheck (modest though it may be). That counts as a job-- Just ask the IRS.🙂
Well, if someone wants to retire some day, it would certainly matter. And not just the debt from med school, but one's financial life prior would be important I would think.
I'm thinking that ANYONE who wants to pursue medicine after say age 30 probably isn't the retiring type. Man, after seeing so much emphasis on "retiring", I'm starting to think that ONLY reason so many people want to make alot of money is so that one day, they can afford to sit on their arse all day!
Just to be devils advocate here...
Is the point of medical schools, ie the reason they exist at all, to allow people to achieve their dreams of becoming a doctor? Maybe partly....But they're also there to train the doctors necessary to provide the society around them with the necessary medical knowledge and treatment...At least on some level, its the responsibility of the medical education establishment as a whole to ensure that there are neither too many nor too few physicians in society at any given time, based on the number required for the health of society, and also on some level to select and admit a wide range of people with diverse enough interests so that it is most likely that students will choose to enter all the different specialties of medicine, so that society has the ophthalmologists, radiologists, family docs, psychiatrists that it needs...Because we try so hard to get in, do well, etc, maybe sometimes we miss the forest for the trees -- med school isn't for us and our dreams, really...it's also important as the gateway to the medical profession as a whole. So regardless of whether the student is able to handle the school work and debt load, doesn't medicine also have a vested interest in admitting more people who will practice for 35 or 40 years than, say, 15? I'd say so, and I think it's a fairly reasonable one, too.
I have nothing but respect for anyone willing to put up with the process and start on it later in life...I think it's awesome and I hope that I am still dreaming, hoping, planning, and trying when I reach that point...But wouldn't there be consequences to being much more open to admitting any substantial number of students who will likely practice less than half the length of time current students will?
Discuss!
Is the point of medical schools, ie the reason they exist at all, to allow people to achieve their dreams of becoming a doctor? Maybe partly....But they're also there to train the doctors necessary to provide the society around them with the necessary medical knowledge and treatment...At least on some level, its the responsibility of the medical education establishment as a whole to ensure that there are neither too many nor too few physicians in society at any given time, based on the number required for the health of society, and also on some level to select and admit a wide range of people with diverse enough interests so that it is most likely that students will choose to enter all the different specialties of medicine, so that society has the ophthalmologists, radiologists, family docs, psychiatrists that it needs...Because we try so hard to get in, do well, etc, maybe sometimes we miss the forest for the trees -- med school isn't for us and our dreams, really...it's also important as the gateway to the medical profession as a whole. So regardless of whether the student is able to handle the school work and debt load, doesn't medicine also have a vested interest in admitting more people who will practice for 35 or 40 years than, say, 15? I'd say so, and I think it's a fairly reasonable one, too.
I have nothing but respect for anyone willing to put up with the process and start on it later in life...I think it's awesome and I hope that I am still dreaming, hoping, planning, and trying when I reach that point...But wouldn't there be consequences to being much more open to admitting any substantial number of students who will likely practice less than half the length of time current students will?
Discuss!
While on average, traditional students will practice longer, barring health issues, there is no requirement for folks who are traditional students to stay in the profession for 15 or more years -- some certainly won't. Folks who have already done something else are less likely to bail on medicine in hopes of greener pastures (having already grazed their fill elsewhere). Also, if you read the pre-allo board, there are quite a few threads that reflect a lot of the younger sets' desires to retire early -- something nontrads won't be doing.
The bottom line is that med schools get to make this call, and someone who they select is by definition going to satisfy whatever obligation the med school feels it owes to healtcare or its mission.
58 years old
58 + 4 years medical school + 3 years residency = retired! 🙄 😀
58 + 4 years medical school + 3 years residency = retired! 🙄 😀
Well if this is the case, then should women, especially nonminority women of childbearing age, be admitted to med school since they are likely to bail once they have kids? I mean how far can this ridiculous notion go?
Medical students used to have a lecture that said that in a way. However, it was more one of a financial nature. They were told that it costs sooo much to educate you (much more than just your tuition) that you owe it to the profession to spend as many years at it as you can. A lot of physicians in their 50's, 60's, and 70's still believe that way.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
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Don't give them any ideas, 1path. 😉I also agree with Shy that you're only too old when you're dead. There are definitely times when I feel bad for not having had my act together ten years ago, when you consider that I'm the same age as people who are young attendings already. But at the same time, I wouldn't be who I am today if I had gone to med school ten years ago. So I vote "none of the above" in this poll. 🙂
It takes about 10 years to become a doctor. If I would have less than 10 years to practice afterwards, that's my breaking point.
My mom is 72 and still works about 3/4 time. She scaled back from fulltime at 70. Her mom was the same. We don't quite understand the word "retirement."
So my cutoff for *starting* med school is age 50. (I expect to finish residency by 50.)
My mom is 72 and still works about 3/4 time. She scaled back from fulltime at 70. Her mom was the same. We don't quite understand the word "retirement."
So my cutoff for *starting* med school is age 50. (I expect to finish residency by 50.)
It makes me sad that so many people voted 35-40. There must be a whole lot of 'younger' non-trads here.
And at forty, I could care less!😀
Quite frankly, I think the issue is with aging because some folks believe they won't look good anymore. I've seen pics of some of the "oldpreds" on OPM, and not ONE of them looks their age, NOT ONE!!
So when I see young people voting that 35-40 is too old, I just think they must have ugly, waaaayyyyy out of shape parents who aren't aging well at all and these "trads" are afraid that by the time they finish med school/residency at 30, they're going to look older than we do.
This thread started on the allo board and got moved here. Most of the younger votes came from the trads. I'm not sure if that should make you feel better or worse, though.
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7
71263
I would say the limit is early-mid 50s. As hard as it may be to believe, med schools dont just want the money from prospective students. This education is an investment. If they accept anyone as old as 60 or more, the chances are the individual will not have the capacity to work by the time they finish residency, if they make it that far.
The oldest in my class was 41 at the time of our white coat ceremony. He seems relatively old compared to the rest of us, but certainly not too old to complete training and get a decent number of years of practice under his belt.
The oldest in my class was 41 at the time of our white coat ceremony. He seems relatively old compared to the rest of us, but certainly not too old to complete training and get a decent number of years of practice under his belt.
Morbid point, but, an actuary would tell you that statistically he will outlive at least one of his classmates, simply by virtue of having gotten to 41 in relatively good health.
Yeah, that's why I find the whole arguments about "too old for medical school" a bit silly. You follow the arguments to their logical conclusion, which ends up barring med school entry to the obese, smokers, women and those who ride motorcycles.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
You only have to bar the women who want to have children. Those of us who don't are actually the best bets. I mean, statistically, we are bound to outlive you gentlemen, and without a family, we'll be around to devote our lives to serving others through our medical careers. But we *will* have to have a little bit of time off to stay home with our cats once in a while. 😉
Student loan debt probably isn't such a big deal if it's your only obligation on top of the routine living expenses that we all have. But what if, at some point, you have to add to that debt burden
*financial assistance for an aging loved one
or
*college costs for your children
or
*your own health care expenses if insurance fails/won't pay?
If you have family money to draw on, either from your birth family or a spouse, or if you spent your time in a lucrative career prior to entering medicine, you can probably manage it all if you're disciplined.
Aren't there some types of debt obligations that pass to the next-of-kin when a person dies???
I 'chose' my option based on what I feel would be appropriate for me only. By no means do I mean to imply that my disposition should be imposed upon anyone else.
This really depends on the person...some people are very capable of learning new things even as they get older-mostly because they've always been challenging themselves intellectually.
But if you haven't really been pushing your learning abilities your brain loses it's learning abilities as you age...so it would be somewhat of a bad idea.
Regardless it gets a lot harder past 35 I'd say-but exceptionally brilliant people could probably get away with whatever they want lol
But if you haven't really been pushing your learning abilities your brain loses it's learning abilities as you age...so it would be somewhat of a bad idea.
Regardless it gets a lot harder past 35 I'd say-but exceptionally brilliant people could probably get away with whatever they want lol
Anyone that graduates medical school at a relatively young age should have no trouble paying off student loans. When you get out of residency, pay more money while your younger, so the interest doesn't build up, and it will start dwindling faster than you think. I don't know why everyone is talking about it as if it has to get paid off all at once. Student loans will just be one more bill among many others. As long as you can learn to allocate money effectively, finance shouldn't be a problem.
And are these not issues that can occur at ANY age except college cots assuming the perosn wasn't a very young parent? I dealt with 2 of these issues before I turned 32. So what should I have done/do go throw myself into a hole of permanent depression and forget about my goals and dreams because sometimes life really sucks? Perhaps the real issue of why so many trads say they won't go to med school after a certian age is because you guys are from the generation of spineless, gutless whiners!
It takes COURAGE to pursue medicine at ANY age but especially after you've already established yourself in another career. Obviously, not many folks know much about courage.Perhaps after you get a few more years of life expereince, you'll be able to answer this question for yourself.😉
I don't think it's an issue of age, but an issue of assertiveness.
There are young men that go to med school. There are young men that sit around asking "should I go to med school?" "which schools should I apply to?" "What color suit should I wear?" "what if I need help in the potty?"
There are old men that go to med school. There are old men that sit around asking "should I go to med school?" "how old is too old?" "what if people look at me funny?"
It's weird but after spending so much time in a hospital, you can tell from a mile away who's got a pair and who doesn't.
There are young men that go to med school. There are young men that sit around asking "should I go to med school?" "which schools should I apply to?" "What color suit should I wear?" "what if I need help in the potty?"
There are old men that go to med school. There are old men that sit around asking "should I go to med school?" "how old is too old?" "what if people look at me funny?"
It's weird but after spending so much time in a hospital, you can tell from a mile away who's got a pair and who doesn't.
Interesting, although acting without thinking is certainly not a virtue, in this or any path. Most of the folks I've seen bail on medicine were those who never asked really thought hard on the "should I go to med school" question. There is certainly a breaking point where you need to stop thinking and start doing, but it's not a bad idea to at least initially ask the question. It's the old joke about Ferdinand the bull -- if you jump without thinking, you often lose your pair.
It is a shame to put an age limit on knowledge. If someone is retied and restless why can't the start med school at 70. All four of my grandparents made it past 90. So there is your twenty years, but even if they didn't stay in medicine long enough to practice what is the harm. They could go to med school and then do an easy internship year and then volunteer in a clinic working under the supervision of someone who has completed a residency.
I hope that physicians could see past someone's age and not say someone is too old to do something just because of the age on their drivers licence or birth certificate. I hope when I am older I will be free to do whatever I desire, and only be constrained by my desire and ability not someone else's ideas about my age.
It has less to do with freedom to do whatever you desire and more to do with best use allocation of a limited resource. The main problem with your proposal is that, unlike eg, law school, med school seats are finite and we are already in a healthcare crisis due to shortage of physicians. If lots of med schools started cranking out physicians who were not going to complete training, and only going to work a few years at best, the crisis would get worse. Thus there is a certainly a breaking point age at which med schools cease to be satisfying their societal obligations. I think that breaking point should be fairly high (higher than many of you, based on the survey), but even I would accept the reality that someone who starts in at 70+ simply isn't practical for the profession. Besides, if someone is willing to work volunteer under the supervision of someone, there are already non-physician degree programs that allow you to do this in much shorter time.
"Shortage of doctors". Is a Lie. "A healthcare crisis due to shortage of physicians." Where are you getting this nonsense?
There is a shortage of people willing to pay doctors a fair wage for their services.
I hate to hear, the shortage lie, yet you hear it all the time. The employers and exploiters of any group inevitably start shortage shouting. It seem that only when there are doctors lined up around the corner to work 80 hours a weeks for minimum wage will the shortage shouters stop. They want more foreign visa workers and more schools to open up and flood the market with cheap labor. You should not fall for that tired old lie by the cheap labor lobby.
I do not see why there is a finite limit on the number of medical school positions D.O. schools seem to be opening two new schools per year. Traditional schools could easily increase their enrolment if they wanted to. I doubt the 65+ year old contingent would ever amount to more than a few people. I would never want to tell my mom or anyone else's mom, she could not go to Medical school just because she was to old. I guess discrimination on the basis of age is no longer against the law.
I would like to attend one of the top 20 Law Schools. I am glad you are telling me that it is open admissions at law schools now, why waste time with that silly LSAT.
There is a shortage of doctors in that (1) the number of doctors generated by US schools do not fill all residencies and so the US resorts to importing offshore educated doctors to fill the shortfall, and (2) the aging baby boomers are causing an increase in healthcare needs plus an increase in physicians retiring. Med schools have already voluntarilly begun increasing their class sizes over the next decade at the request of the profession to fill the anticipated needs, but are facing infrastructure hurdles. So every existing seat is already needed.
Second, law schools are not "open admission" but they certainly have fewer hurdles and relatively no limit to the number of people or upper age of who can attend. This is largely because the schools don't act as gateway to the profession, the bar exam at the other end does. Law schools routinely accept people who will never become lawyers, both through significant attrition and through failure of the bar exam (passage rate of which in many states is below 70%). Med schools don't do this -- if you get in, in most cases, you end up a physician eventually.
And no one ever said "top 20" - I have no clue where you are drawing that from.🙄
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Yeah, spots in top 20 schools are finite. I do think anybody with a college degree can be admitted to some law school somewhere regardless of gpa and LSAT score. These people shell out a lot of money for fairly dismal career prospects.
You are mixing up cause and effect. Hospitals get paid to train residents and residents are cheap labor for hospitals. Therefore Hospitals want as many residents a possible so they resort to filling residencies with FMGs. Why pay a nurse 60k per year for 40 hour weeks when you can get a resident for 35 to 40K per year for 80 hours per week and the government will pay your hospital 100K per year to train him. With that kind of incentive system it puzzles me that there are not far more residents.
Every where I have been there are plenty of doctors. No, doctors are not falling all over themselves to take care of the uninsured. However the government is spending our tax dollars to make sure those it deems truly needy get care. I doubt the aging baby boomers will put much of a strain on the system but the shortage shouters will warn you of the systems impeding collapse to push their cheap labor agenda.
I know that you did not mention the top 20 law schools, but if you can get into medical school your grades are most likely good enough to get into the upper half of the law schools but only with luck and very good LSAT scores can you get into the top 20.
I still don't see your point on the top 20 law schools. My prior post didn't mention those and they have nothing to do with any of this. Old people can go to law school if they choose -- that's all I ever said. Not the top law school, but a law school. There are not the same number restrictions on that form of professional education, it is not as finite a resource. I never said they even had to be people with good enough grades to get into med school, or into a great law school. I have no clue how you got to your top 20 scenario from my prior statement; you seem to be trying to argue something not raised.
As for why there are so few residents, the positions are governmentally funded, and only so many slots get funded based on budgetting. So no, hospitals generally can't just hire more residents. The $100k (you indicated, assuming arguendo that is the amount) is quickly used up in training that doctor, notwithstanding his salary only being a portion of the total -- things like insurance etc. And the residents don't really serve the same function as nurses anyhow, so it would be hospital management suicide to try and replace the nursing staff with cheaper residents.
Your notion that "Every where I have been there are plenty of doctors" isn't exactly convincing or scientific evidence, particularly when the profession itself has determined that it needs to increase allo slots due to an impending shortage. But feel free to believe what you'd like.🙂
