How to approach a professor about unfair grading for orgo problem?

[Richanesthesiologist]

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On an orgo test dealing with the alkylation of alkenes/Alkynes (i/e Hydroboration, Br2 addition, etc.), there was this 9 step problem that required 9 products, which each product worth 5 points (Question total was worth 45 points).

The first step involved an ozonolysis and I drew the wrong product. Therefore, by default, everything else after was wrong. He did give me half credit for all the products after, even though I had drawn the mechanism, products, and stereochemistry all correctly based on my first product. (One product happened to turn out right by chance). I got 25/45 for the problem. Would it be rational to ask the professor to give me a 40/45 (I know I got the first problem wrong so I'm OK with him taking points off of that). But I just feel unfair that I'm penalized the rest of the test for getting the first product wrong.The first product was deduced through the same type of question as the rest of the steps. Whereas for any other step I would have only received 5 points off for getting it off, for the first step, I got 20 points off.

 

[HomeSkool]

It's entirely fair to ask that. It's super douchey for the professor to dock points for the same mistake nine separate times.

 

[longhaul3]

Sounds reasonable to me. Double counting wrong answers is bad teaching, but unfortunately bad teaching usually comes from bad teachers, so don't expect much willingness on the prof's part to hear you out (plus he has probably heard this a hundred other times from the thousand other students who have had the same misfortune over the years). How much did this affect your exam grade and how is your grade overall? If not much, then I don't think it would be a good idea to bring it up. If enough that it might change your prospects for med school, then I suppose you have to.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

It's futile at this point. Consider the following reasons:

-Some students may have drawn a product for the first answer that was incorrect but that product had problems that couldn't be followed through to the rest of the problem. Is that fair to those students?

-Chances are, the professor did this to every student who didn't get all steps correct. Do you really think he will be willing to change very exam? Chances are the professor is a tough grader, but that will reflect in the curve at the end.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Ah yes, welcome to the suck that is organic chemistry.

 

[Goro]

On an orgo test dealing with the alkylation of alkenes/Alkynes (i/e Hydroboration, Br2 addition, etc.), there was this 9 step problem that required 9 products, which each product worth 5 points (Question total was worth 45 points).

The first step involved an ozonolysis and I drew the wrong product. Therefore, by default, everything else after was wrong. He did give me half credit for all the products after, even though I had drawn the mechanism, products, and stereochemistry all correctly based on my first product. (One product happened to turn out right by chance). I got 25/45 for the problem. Would it be rational to ask the professor to give me a 40/45 (I know I got the first problem wrong so I'm OK with him taking points off of that). But I just feel unfair that I'm penalized the rest of the test for getting the first product wrong.The first product was deduced through the same type of question as the rest of the steps. Whereas for any other step I would have only received 5 points off for getting it off, for the first step, I got 20 points off.

Why should you rewarded when it was your responsibility to draw the product right the first time???

 

[Richanesthesiologist]

Sounds reasonable to me. Double counting wrong answers is bad teaching, but unfortunately bad teaching usually comes from bad teachers, so don't expect much willingness on the prof's part to hear you out (plus he has probably heard this a hundred other times from the thousand other students who have had the same misfortune over the years). How much did this affect your exam grade and how is your grade overall? If not much, then I don't think it would be a good idea to bring it up. If enough that it might change your prospects for med school, then I suppose you have to.

I would have scored 10% higher. This would have brought be from a B+ to an high A- or low A in the class depending on ranking.

 

[Lawpy]

Good times...

 

[longhaul3]

I would have scored 10% higher. This would have brought be from a B+ to an high A- or low A in the class depending on ranking.

Tough situation. I would just stand pat and study up for the final. I don't think a B+ vs. A/A- is going to keep you out of med school, and with a final to come and probably plenty of room for subjective grading I wouldn't rock the boat.

 

[Richanesthesiologist]

It's futile at this point. Consider the following reasons:

-Some students may have drawn a product for the first answer that was incorrect but that product had problems that couldn't be followed through to the rest of the problem. Is that fair to those students?

-Chances are, the professor did this to every student who didn't get all steps correct. Do you really think he will be willing to change very exam? Chances are the professor is a tough grader, but that will reflect in the curve at the end.

My product was very similar in structure to the subsequent products. It just had the wrong number of rings.

 

[BombsAway]

100% wrong but given 50% of the points. Take the money and run!

Or go to office hours and pretend you don't know your mistake and have him walk you through it. Maybe he'll note the pattern and feel generous.

 

[altblue]

I think it's entirely fair to ask that

And I think your professor also needs to learn to write better exam questions

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

My product was very similar in structure to the subsequent products. It just had the wrong number of rings.

So.... you had the wrong answer....

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Talking to your professor about this just makes you sound immature, in my opinion.

I agree with you that these types of questions (where one thing builds on the next which builds on the next etc) suck, but the fact of this situation is that you did get the question wrong. It doesn't matter that you got all of the rest of the steps wrong because you messed up the first step....you still messed up the first step. The answer is still incorrect.

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

IMO this is grade grubbing
You made a critical error in an early step of a multi step process and thus threw off every subsequent answer.
The fact is you got those answers wrong and while you got partial credit because your methodology from that point on was correct it doesn't change the fact you got the wrong answers.

You are still free to ask your professor but be cautious because this may taint your professor's opinion of you.

 

[joeception]

When I took ochem if the first product was wrong the entire answer was wrong (0/50) I suppose it is okay to ask but I would not hold my breath.

 

[chemdoctor]

I think it is okay to ask, but I doubt it. That's O Chem dude. Your entire answer was basically incorrect because you messed up the first product. The question asked for a different product. You would be asking points for answering the wrong question

 

[Thienyl15]

Smells like grade grubbing :/

Besides, making a mistake with an ozonolysis is going to have tremendous impacts on the downstream structure. If you messed up on sticking a halide somewhere, that’d be one thing, but not this.

 

[HomeSkool]

I think it is okay to ask, but I doubt it. That's O Chem dude. Your entire answer was basically incorrect because you messed up the first product. The question asked for a different product. You would be asking points for answering the wrong question

See, that's the thing: what exactly is the professor grading and how are points being awarded? If the final answer is worth 45 points by itself, then partial credit is generous. However, if points are awarded on the basis of the nine individual reactions, then a mistake on one step shouldn't cause a loss of points on any other step. I've been in classes that are graded each way, and based on the OP's first post I understood the professor to be awarding points per reaction.

Based on what the OP said, he lost 20 points by screwing up the first step and having wrong intermediate products. Another student who got step 1 correct and messed up step 9 would only lose 5 points, though, even though his/her final answer was equally incorrect. That's why I said it would be reasonable to ask for more credit.

That said, I also agree this could come off as grade grubbing, depending on certain details. Were I in the OP's shoes, I'd be more likely to ask for reconsideration if the exam was graded by a TA and less likely if the professor did the original grading himself. If I'd already spoken with the professor about this question, I would not go a second time, regardless of who did the grading. And either way, the OP certainly wouldn't be wrong to just let this go and move on.

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[ndafife]

So you got every answer wrong, but your professor was nice enough to give you half credit despite that.... and you want to ask for more? Good luck. Sounds like a good way to get a 0 next time you get every answer wrong.

 

[ndafife]

Another student who got step 1 correct and messed up step 9 would only lose 5 points, though, even though his/her final answer was equally incorrect.

Well that patient would have 8 correct answers where OP had 0.

 

[HomeSkool]

Well that patient would have 8 correct answers where OP had 0.

One mistake should be treated as one mistake, not nine. If the OP carried out subsequent reactions correctly, he should get credit for doing so. It's poor teaching and poor testing to repeatedly punish the same error on all subsequent steps.

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[chemdoctor]

I agree the grading seems a little unclear and a little unfair. Just ask OP, but don't expect to get any points back.

 

[Robin-jay]

This is not the place for sympathy lol.

 

[MCATISEZ]

On an orgo test dealing with the alkylation of alkenes/Alkynes (i/e Hydroboration, Br2 addition, etc.), there was this 9 step problem that required 9 products, which each product worth 5 points (Question total was worth 45 points).

The first step involved an ozonolysis and I drew the wrong product. Therefore, by default, everything else after was wrong. He did give me half credit for all the products after, even though I had drawn the mechanism, products, and stereochemistry all correctly based on my first product. (One product happened to turn out right by chance). I got 25/45 for the problem. Would it be rational to ask the professor to give me a 40/45 (I know I got the first problem wrong so I'm OK with him taking points off of that). But I just feel unfair that I'm penalized the rest of the test for getting the first product wrong.The first product was deduced through the same type of question as the rest of the steps. Whereas for any other step I would have only received 5 points off for getting it off, for the first step, I got 20 points off.

Nope. Get over it and be more cautious next time. If the professor graded each student the same way for similar issues, you have no point.


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[ndafife]

One mistake should be treated as one mistake, not nine. If the OP called out subsequent reactions correctly, he should get credit for doing so. It's poor teaching and poor testing to repeatedly punish the same error on all subsequent steps.

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If one mistake in the hospital leads to 9 bad outcomes its judged a lot worse than if the same mistake leads to 1.

Were adults. People are judged on outcomes, not effort.

 

[HomeSkool]

If one mistake in the hospital leads to 9 bad outcomes its judged a lot worse than if the same mistake leads to 1.

Not sure I agree with you comparing an undergrad o-chem exam to an egregious error in patient care. It's a lot like comparing someone to Hitler: you can win an argument that way, but only because you cheated.

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[Robin-jay]

Not sure I agree with you comparing an undergrad o-chem exam to an egregious error in patient care. It's a lot like comparing someone to Hitler: you can win an argument that way, but only because you cheated.

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Not sure I agree with you comparing an undergrad o-chem exam to an egregious error in patient care. It's a lot like comparing someone to Hitler: you can win an argument that way, but only because you cheated.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using SDN mobile

My favorite dictator I like to compare people to when losing an argument is Stalin.

 

[ndafife]

Not sure I agree with you comparing an undergrad o-chem exam to an egregious error in patient care. It's a lot like comparing someone to Hitler: you can win an argument that way, but only because you cheated.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using SDN mobile

My favorite dictator I like to compare people to when losing an argument is Stalin.

I prefer to evoke the wrath of the Kim's but to each his own

 

[HomeSkool]

I prefer to evoke the wrath of the Kim's but to each his own

My preferred comparisons:

Evil: Hitler
Paranoia: Stalin
Psychosis / evil clown: Kim

Versatility, my friends.

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[Piglet2020]

My favorite professor response: Well... I see your point but.. I don't feel like going back and regrading all 200 students' exams.
Me:

 

[altblue]

My favorite professor response: Well... I see your point but.. I don't feel like going back and regrading all 200 students' exams.
Me:

I wish I could've approached the MCAT writers about some of those CARS questions

 

[Robin-jay]

I prefer to evoke the wrath of the Kim's but to each his own

Lol Stalin > Kim. Stop acting like Hitler.

 

[dr_kateb]

No one is going to point out the fact that they had 1 question worth 45 points? No one is surprised? Is this the norm in other schools? I just had my test over SN1, SN2, E1, E2, and addition reactions tonight and it was divided so that the students could get the most points possible.

 

[altblue]

No one is going to point out the fact that they had 1 question worth 45 points? No one is surprised? Is this the norm in other schools? I just had my test over SN1, SN2, E1, E2, and addition reactions tonight and it was divided so that the students could get the most points possible.

Orgo is taught so differently from school to school that it doesn't surprise me that poorly designed/point-allocated questions like that pop up. Like I looked at an exam at a top 20 and deflatin' UG and saw so many short answer questions.... like what the hell, where was the synthesis or puzzle-solving.

 

[rabbott1971]

Orgo is taught so differently from school to school that it doesn't surprise me that poorly designed/point-allocated questions like that pop up. Like I looked at an exam at a top 20 and deflatin' UG and saw so many short answer questions.... like what the hell, where was the synthesis or puzzle-solving.

Is it so different Jim? Is Orgo taught so differently? False. When I was a boy on the Shrute farm we had a festival called Organikken Gehestenzie and we synthesized beet fertilizer. The winner received a handmade sock. One sock Jim.

 

[dr_kateb]

Is it so different Jim? Is Orgo taught so differently? False. When I was a boy on the Shrute farm we had a festival called Organikken Gehestenzie and we synthesized beet fertilizer. The winner received a handmade sock. One sock Jim.

I guess this would have been more funny to me if I watched the office?

 

[altblue]

I guess this would have been more funny to me if I watched the office?

Yeah probably

 

[de Ribas]

(Question total was worth 45 points).

How many points was the whole test?

 

[de Ribas]

On an orgo test dealing with the alkylation of alkenes/Alkynes (i/e Hydroboration, Br2 addition, etc.), there was this 9 step problem that required 9 products, which each product worth 5 points (Question total was worth 45 points).

The first step involved an ozonolysis and I drew the wrong product. Therefore, by default, everything else after was wrong. He did give me half credit for all the products after, even though I had drawn the mechanism, products, and stereochemistry all correctly based on my first product. (One product happened to turn out right by chance). I got 25/45 for the problem. Would it be rational to ask the professor to give me a 40/45 (I know I got the first problem wrong so I'm OK with him taking points off of that). But I just feel unfair that I'm penalized the rest of the test for getting the first product wrong.The first product was deduced through the same type of question as the rest of the steps. Whereas for any other step I would have only received 5 points off for getting it off, for the first step, I got 20 points off.

one of my teachers would say: "Only I and God know the material for an A, the rest of you B's and lower."

 

[shouldvestudied]

Why should you rewarded when it was your responsibility to draw the product right the first time???

Because it is a carry over problem, Goro. Don't be obtuse.

The goal of exam writing and grading is to accurately assess a student's understanding of the material. This method of grading, where an initial mistake is amplified into a 44.4% reduction on the problem obviously falls short of that goal.

 

[altblue]

Because it is a carry over problem, Goro. Don't be obtuse.

The goal of exam writing and grading is to accurately assess a student's understanding of the material. This method of grading, where an initial mistake is amplified into a 44.4% reduction on the problem obviously falls short of that goal.

It's like if you were doing a 6-step torque-equilibrium problem, made an error in the first or second calculation, did the rest right and got less than 50% for the problem.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

Phase 1: Mess up exam answer
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: Profit