How to change a toxic medical school environment

[deleted1098366]

Hey guys!

Does anyone have advice on what to do when your medical school refuses to take even small steps towards accommodating, supporting, and protecting its students and their emotional well-being? Is there anything that can be done aside from asking for help (and repeatedly being shut down)? Feeling desperate.

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[SurfingDoctor]

Hey guys!

Does anyone have advice on what to do when your medical school refuses to take even small steps towards accommodating, supporting, and protecting its students and their emotional well-being? Is there anything that can be done aside from asking for help (and repeatedly being shut down)? Feeling desperate.

Is there a wellness committee? On our school's website under student affairs, there a big tab that says "student wellness" that has resources and links. I would see if yours has one too.

Additionally, many places have assistant programs for mental health services, etc. Sometimes they are for employees, but I bet they have connections/resources for students.

 

[Dral]

I don't know if it is the proper channel for medical students, but you could check to see if the hospital system has an ombudsman you could contact.

 

[Goro]

Hey guys!

Does anyone have advice on what to do when your medical school refuses to take even small steps towards accommodating, supporting, and protecting its students and their emotional well-being? Is there anything that can be done aside from asking for help (and repeatedly being shut down)? Feeling desperate.

Who in particular are you asking for help?

But for starters, have you reached out to trusted Faculty advisors?

 

[deleted1098366]

It's the faculty / administrators at the school who are creating this environment for students. They marginalize certain groups and do not give students consideration for "special" circumstances. Students who speak up and ask for help or change are shamed and treated like they are being unreasonable or difficult.

 

[deleted1098366]

I don't know if it is the proper channel for medical students, but you could check to see if the hospital system has an ombudsman you could contact.

Interesting! Do you think the school would seek retribution against a student who pursued this path?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Some additional details might be helpful. What "special circumstances" need what consideration?

 

[Dral]

Interesting! Do you think the school would seek retribution against a student who pursued this path?

That is a good question. That is always a risk/worry unfortunately. Institutions have different environments so it’s hard to say across the board, but in general the way I understand it, they are there to serve as a ‘safe’ way to bring up issues.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Yes, more details are good. Specifically, most places will do what they can to accommodate concerns. That being said, if you twist the knife too much and/or in anyway poison the well so to speak, you will not be looked on favorably.

We had a trainee way back, who constantly stirred the pot. They got other people angry too. It was never clear to me what was actually wrong, but they got the ACGME to evaluate our program. Then, after all that, they asked for a fellowship spot. We politely told them "no". Last time I checked, they were a program director. Good times.

Not to say the above is any reflection of what this scenario is, but just an anecdote. Anyway, training is temporary and unless its something criminal, sometimes its best to just deal and move on. If you can't, then you can't, but the grass isn't going to be necessarily greener.

 

[deleted1098366]

Students with chronic illnesses being reprimanded for missing class for doctors' appointments, students receiving push back or denied religious absence requests, not pushing postponing test dates for students who have immediate family members with life-threatening emergencies/ operations, doing nothing to support (or even follow up with) students who report serious mental illness, arbitrarily refusing to provide certain accommodations to students with disabilities and then joking about it with other faculty members

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Students with chronic illnesses being reprimanded for missing class for doctors' appointments, students receiving push back or denied religious absence requests, not pushing postponing test dates for students who have immediate family members with life-threatening emergencies/ operations, doing nothing to support (or even follow up with) students who report serious mental illness, arbitrarily refusing to provide certain accommodations to students with disabilities and then joking about it with other faculty members

Well, if its violations of not accommodating disabilities, that's an ADA violation. People can submit reports here:

Redirecting…

www.ada.gov

As far as religious freedoms, someone could contact the ACLU if they feel like its being violated.

Know Your Rights | Religious Freedom | ACLU

Learn more here about your right to express your religion and belief and be protected from discrimination.

www.aclu.org

There's also submitting complaints to the LCME, the accrediting body of medical schools. If enough people have consist complaints, it can initiate a program audit.

Complaints & Third-Party Comments | LCME

lcme.org

As far as mental illness, I don't think there is anything the school can do about that. They can't request people to get help. Nor are they typically required to provide leave for family issues. Generally, if things in life are too complex, taking a leave of absence is probably the best route.

 

[operaman]

Students with chronic illnesses being reprimanded for missing class for doctors' appointments, students receiving push back or denied religious absence requests, not pushing postponing test dates for students who have immediate family members with life-threatening emergencies/ operations, doing nothing to support (or even follow up with) students who report serious mental illness, arbitrarily refusing to provide certain accommodations to students with disabilities and then joking about it with other faculty members

1) if a student has a chronic illness that is so bad it precludes them from scheduling routine appointments around their academic responsibilities, they need to consider a LOA. A doctors appointment is not carte Blanche to miss mandatory activities.

2) the school is under no obligation to indulge anyone’s religious beliefs. Most will work with students as best they can, but there is no world in which you can look at 7-10 years of medical educations and expect no conflicts with religious observance. In reality, the only times I’ve ever seen this be a problem are when students wait til the last minute to ask for time off. The responsible ones are emailing admin months in advance and adjusting their schedules as needed and have no problems at all.

3) why on earth would a school postpone a test date because a family member is sick or having surgery? They frequently offer a LOA if things are bad and nearly always make exceptions for emergencies. If something is planned enough in advance that there’s time to ask for a postponement, it probably doesn’t merit a postponement. Life happens while you’re in training or in practice.

4) medical schools have no obligation to treat a student’s illness. That’s between them and their physicians. Students are adult professionals and are perfectly capable of reaching out to admin on their own

5) based on the other examples, I’m going to guess that the accommodations requested were a stretch. Schools are required to make reasonable accommodations, but I’m willing to bet the requested accommodations were not only unreasonable, but stretched the limits of credulity to the point it was actually funny enough to be a punchline.

I have to say, based on what I’m hearing so far your school is being quite reasonable. These forums are littered with stories like yours of big bad schools and training programs that end up looking extremely reasonable once all the facts are known.

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

1) if a student has a chronic illness that is so bad it precludes them from scheduling routine appointments around their academic responsibilities, they need to consider a LOA. A doctors appointment is not carte Blanche to miss mandatory activities.

Maybe in preclinical or M4 this is true, when you have more free/non-mandatory time in the schedule and/or blocks of unscheduled time, but at least for my experience it has been literally impossible to see doctors during M3 without requesting some time off, due to both fullness and unpredictability of our schedules. I needed to schedule a series of appointments recently for a moderately bad medical issue (painful, but i'm otherwise able to carry out my student responsibilities fine) and I'm very grateful that my clerkship director and preceptors were all super accommodating, but I could see other schools not being the same way.

IMO, schools either need to have some kind of PTO/personal day policy laid out in advance for these kind of situations, OR they need to be willing to accommodate a reasonable number of medical appointments (assuming the student makes an effort to schedule them at the least disruptive times possible)

 

[Mass Effect]

Maybe in preclinical or M4 this is true, when you have more free/non-mandatory time in the schedule and/or blocks of unscheduled time, but at least for my experience it has been literally impossible to see doctors during M3 without requesting some time off, due to both fullness and unpredictability of our schedules. I needed to schedule a series of appointments recently for a moderately bad medical issue (painful, but i'm otherwise able to carry out my student responsibilities fine) and I'm very grateful that my clerkship director and preceptors were all super accommodating, but I could see other schools not being the same way.

IMO, schools either need to have some kind of PTO/personal day policy laid out in advance for these kind of situations, OR they need to be willing to accommodate a reasonable number of medical appointments (assuming the student makes an effort to schedule them at the least disruptive times possible)

I agree with this. If students on clerkships are expected to behave as if they're the doctor, then they should also get the freedom of getting a day off if needed, whether it's between rotations or just a handful of days there that they can use if they need. At the very least, they should be given at least 3 or 4 sick days for the year. They can then use the sick days for doctor's appts, assuming they don't use them up actually being sick (pedi bugs are the worst!).

As for religious exemptions, training is not always going to allow for that. Might as well get used to it now. When you're on-call as a resident, you're on-call. There are no religious exemptions for the most part.

Family emergency -- true emergencies in first degree relatives, I've never known a school to not accommodate. But you have to be reasonable here. I had a classmate who tried to miss an anatomy practical once because his uncle's fiance had emergency cholecystectomy and he wanted to be with his family. Uh, no, not gonna happen.

Re: mental health. I'm going to disagree with my colleagues above. It isn't the school's duty (nor right) to pry into a student's mental health needs. But if a student is actively asking for help for depression or whatever, the school should have someone on faculty the student can see, at the very least to get a referral to a community therapist or psychiatrist. This should be Med School 101, especially with the number of med students who are depressed, have substance use issues or attempt suicide. The school is wrong in this regard, if the student in question is actively asking for help. If the student in question isn't asking for help, then the school would be out of bounds for prying into a student's mental health history or needs.

 

[Med Ed]

Maybe in preclinical or M4 this is true, when you have more free/non-mandatory time in the schedule and/or blocks of unscheduled time, but at least for my experience it has been literally impossible to see doctors during M3 without requesting some time off, due to both fullness and unpredictability of our schedules.

OP did say "missing class," which suggests this is in reference to preclinical activities.

 

[Med Ed]

I had a classmate who tried to miss an anatomy practical once because his uncle's fiance had emergency cholecystectomy and he wanted to be with his family. Uh, no, not gonna happen.

This is actually much more compelling than some of the proposed absence reasons I have seen.

 

[deleted1098366]

1) if a student has a chronic illness that is so bad it precludes them from scheduling routine appointments around their academic responsibilities, they need to consider a LOA. A doctors appointment is not carte Blanche to miss mandatory activities.

2) the school is under no obligation to indulge anyone’s religious beliefs. Most will work with students as best they can, but there is no world in which you can look at 7-10 years of medical educations and expect no conflicts with religious observance. In reality, the only times I’ve ever seen this be a problem are when students wait til the last minute to ask for time off. The responsible ones are emailing admin months in advance and adjusting their schedules as needed and have no problems at all.

3) why on earth would a school postpone a test date because a family member is sick or having surgery? They frequently offer a LOA if things are bad and nearly always make exceptions for emergencies. If something is planned enough in advance that there’s time to ask for a postponement, it probably doesn’t merit a postponement. Life happens while you’re in training or in practice.

4) medical schools have no obligation to treat a student’s illness. That’s between them and their physicians. Students are adult professionals and are perfectly capable of reaching out to admin on their own

5) based on the other examples, I’m going to guess that the accommodations requested were a stretch. Schools are required to make reasonable accommodations, but I’m willing to bet the requested accommodations were not only unreasonable, but stretched the limits of credulity to the point it was actually funny enough to be a punchline.

I have to say, based on what I’m hearing so far your school is being quite reasonable. These forums are littered with stories like yours of big bad schools and training programs that end up looking extremely reasonable once all the facts are known.

You appear to be making a lot of assumptions here, and I'm not exactly sure why. Your response is littered with bias and disdain towards someone who is asking others to help. Remember, it takes just as much energy to be kind as it does to be mean. There is no excuse for someone, particularly within the field of medicine, to be treating another individual this way.

1) I'm referring to a single monthly or bi-monthly doctors appointment.

2) Why are you assuming that the people denied regarding religious absence requests are asking last minute? No, they are asking months ahead of time. And schools are actually under a legal obligation to "indulge" students' religious beliefs, as you put it.

3) I am referring to an immediate family member who suddenly went into the ICU and required immediate life-saving surgery the week before an exam

4) I'm not asking for treatment, I'm asking for acknowledgment of an illness and doing so much as asking the person if they are okay. And this is specifically referring to students who have asked the administration for help.

5) This is not the case and a completely unfair assumption to make.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I agree with this. If students on clerkships are expected to behave as if they're the doctor, then they should also get the freedom of getting a day off if needed, whether it's between rotations or just a handful of days there that they can use if they need. At the very least, they should be given at least 3 or 4 sick days for the year. They can then use the sick days for doctor's appts, assuming they don't use them up actually being sick (pedi bugs are the worst!).

As for religious exemptions, training is not always going to allow for that. Might as well get used to it now. When you're on-call as a resident, you're on-call. There are no religious exemptions for the most part.

Family emergency -- true emergencies in first degree relatives, I've never known a school to not accommodate. But you have to be reasonable here. I had a classmate who tried to miss an anatomy practical once because his uncle's fiance had emergency cholecystectomy and he wanted to be with his family. Uh, no, not gonna happen.

Re: mental health. I'm going to disagree with my colleagues above. It isn't the school's duty (nor right) to pry into a student's mental health needs. But if a student is actively asking for help for depression or whatever, the school should have someone on faculty the student can see, at the very least to get a referral to a community therapist or psychiatrist. This should be Med School 101, especially with the number of med students who are depressed, have substance use issues or attempt suicide. The school is wrong in this regard, if the student in question is actively asking for help. If the student in question isn't asking for help, then the school would be out of bounds for prying into a student's mental health history or needs.

Generally, totally agree. But I’ve seen students be denied just a short time off to go be with their family when one of their parents was dying of covid

 

[deleted1098366]

I agree with this. If students on clerkships are expected to behave as if they're the doctor, then they should also get the freedom of getting a day off if needed, whether it's between rotations or just a handful of days there that they can use if they need. At the very least, they should be given at least 3 or 4 sick days for the year. They can then use the sick days for doctor's appts, assuming they don't use them up actually being sick (pedi bugs are the worst!).

As for religious exemptions, training is not always going to allow for that. Might as well get used to it now. When you're on-call as a resident, you're on-call. There are no religious exemptions for the most part.

Family emergency -- true emergencies in first degree relatives, I've never known a school to not accommodate. But you have to be reasonable here. I had a classmate who tried to miss an anatomy practical once because his uncle's fiance had emergency cholecystectomy and he wanted to be with his family. Uh, no, not gonna happen.

Re: mental health. I'm going to disagree with my colleagues above. It isn't the school's duty (nor right) to pry into a student's mental health needs. But if a student is actively asking for help for depression or whatever, the school should have someone on faculty the student can see, at the very least to get a referral to a community therapist or psychiatrist. This should be Med School 101, especially with the number of med students who are depressed, have substance use issues or attempt suicide. The school is wrong in this regard, if the student in question is actively asking for help. If the student in question isn't asking for help, then the school would be out of bounds for prying into a student's mental health history or needs.

Thank you for your thoughtful response!

This question actually refers to multiple students, but yes, students actively asking for help regarding serious mental health issues.

And without revealing too much, students were requesting to miss preclinical lecture sessions on devout religious holidays. When someone is on call, they usually have the option of trying to switch dates with someone else. Additionally, doctors are also at least getting paid to care for patients during this time. On the other hand, schools are legally prohibited from religious discrimination against students.

 

[Mass Effect]

Generally, totally agree. But I’ve seen students be denied just a short time off to go be with their family when one of their parents was dying of covid

That's definitely wrong and such schools should be named and shamed all over social media so future applicants know what they're getting by applying there.

 

[Mass Effect]

Thank you for your thoughtful response!

This question actually refers to multiple students, but yes, students actively asking for help regarding serious mental health issues.

And without revealing too much, students were requesting to miss preclinical lecture sessions on devout religious holidays. When someone is on call, they usually have the option of trying to switch dates with someone else. Additionally, doctors are also at least getting paid to care for patients during this time. On the other hand, schools are legally prohibited from religious discrimination against students.

I mean, it's ridiculous that missing lectures is a big deal and the school is wrong in that instance. But you have some misconceptions about call. It isn't true that you always have the option of trying to switch dates. First off, some residencies don't allow you to switch. When you're scheduled, you're scheduled. Second, sometimes rotations are arranged in such a way (a year in advance) that allows you to be on call certain times of the year and not other. Like if you're on neuro, it would be ridiculous to expect you to take medicine call. So that month, you can't take medicine call so you can't trade with anyone that would necessitate you working their call when you're on neuro. Likewise, if someone others are on elective, they're either not going to be able to or want to switch call with you. Don't ever think you have 20-something people to juggle call with. Most likely, unless you're at a gigantic residency program, you will have only a few who are actually available and then it's up in the air if those few will do it. And all that is if your program allows switches.

It is true in some situations you will be able to switch, but you're realistically not going to get through training by switching/missing all devout holidays. It just won't happen. I'm in psych and even in psych, perhaps the most laid back and chill of all residencies, we all worked at least a handful of devout holidays. Now if you're only considering, say, Easter as a devout holiday, then you can possibly get through training never working Easter Sunday. But if, from a Christian standpoint, you want every Easter, every Christmas/Christmas Eve, every Good Friday, and every Ash Wednesday off every year, it's just not realistic that's going to happen, even in psych, and if you're "that guy" trying to trade every single holiday, you're quickly going to be disliked by your colleagues who are no more excited about working them than you. You will work devout holidays and going in with that expectation will save you a lot of disappointment.

 

[deleted1098366]

parents

I mean, it's ridiculous that missing lectures is a big deal and the school is wrong in that instance. But you have some misconceptions about call. It isn't true that you always have the option of trying to switch dates. First off, some residencies don't allow you to switch. When you're scheduled, you're scheduled. Second, sometimes rotations are arranged in such a way (a year in advance) that allows you to be on call certain times of the year and not other. Like if you're on neuro, it would be ridiculous to expect you to take medicine call. So that month, you can't take medicine call so you can't trade with anyone that would necessitate you working their call when you're on neuro. Likewise, if someone others are on elective, they're either not going to be able to or want to switch call with you. Don't ever think you have 20-something people to juggle call with. Most likely, unless you're at a gigantic residency program, you will have only a few who are actually available and then it's up in the air if those few will do it. And all that is if your program allows switches.

It is true in some situations you will be able to switch, but you're realistically not going to get through training by switching/missing all devout holidays. It just won't happen. I'm in psych and even in psych, perhaps the most laid back and chill of all residencies, we all worked at least a handful of devout holidays. Now if you're only considering, say, Easter as a devout holiday, then you can possibly get through training never working Easter Sunday. But if, from a Christian standpoint, you want every Easter, every Christmas/Christmas Eve, every Good Friday, and every Ash Wednesday off every year, it's just not realistic that's going to happen, even in psych, and if you're "that guy" trying to trade every single holiday, you're quickly going to be disliked by your colleagues who are no more excited about working them than you. You will work devout holidays and going in with that expectation will save you a lot of disappointment.

That definitely makes sense. Thanks for the context. What I'm referring to is just 1-2 particularly meaningful holidays per year for a religion other than Christianity (so not like a million people trying to take off at once and only so many people can be accommodated). I agree that expecting all the dates you mentioned off is unrealistic and unlikely to be accommodated in medicine or other industries.

 

[deleted1098366]

1) if a student has a chronic illness that is so bad it precludes them from scheduling routine appointments around their academic responsibilities, they need to consider a LOA. A doctors appointment is not carte Blanche to miss mandatory activities.

2) the school is under no obligation to indulge anyone’s religious beliefs. Most will work with students as best they can, but there is no world in which you can look at 7-10 years of medical educations and expect no conflicts with religious observance. In reality, the only times I’ve ever seen this be a problem are when students wait til the last minute to ask for time off. The responsible ones are emailing admin months in advance and adjusting their schedules as needed and have no problems at all.

3) why on earth would a school postpone a test date because a family member is sick or having surgery? They frequently offer a LOA if things are bad and nearly always make exceptions for emergencies. If something is planned enough in advance that there’s time to ask for a postponement, it probably doesn’t merit a postponement. Life happens while you’re in training or in practice.

4) medical schools have no obligation to treat a student’s illness. That’s between them and their physicians. Students are adult professionals and are perfectly capable of reaching out to admin on their own

5) based on the other examples, I’m going to guess that the accommodations requested were a stretch. Schools are required to make reasonable accommodations, but I’m willing to bet the requested accommodations were not only unreasonable, but stretched the limits of credulity to the point it was actually funny enough to be a punchline.

I have to say, based on what I’m hearing so far your school is being quite reasonable. These forums are littered with stories like yours of big bad schools and training programs that end up looking extremely reasonable once all the facts are known.

Also, didn't you take an oath to do no harm? I guess that doesn't apply to cyberbullying / openly mocking people with disabilities?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Also, didn't you take an oath to do no harm? I guess that doesn't apply to cyberbullying / openly mocking people with disabilities?

Let’s keep it professional and avoid baseless attacks. No one is openly bullying or mocking people with disabilities.

 

[deleted1098366]

Let’s keep it professional and avoid baseless attacks. No one is openly bullying or mocking people with disabilities.

As per the comment below, I respectfully disagree and do 100% consider this to be bullying.

"based on the other examples, I’m going to guess that the accommodations requested were a stretch. Schools are required to make reasonable accommodations, but I’m willing to bet the requested accommodations were not only unreasonable, but stretched the limits of credulity to the point it was actually funny enough to be a punchline."

 

[xffan624]

As per the comment below, I respectfully disagree and do 100% consider this to be bullying.

"based on the other examples, I’m going to guess that the accommodations requested were a stretch. Schools are required to make reasonable accommodations, but I’m willing to bet the requested accommodations were not only unreasonable, but stretched the limits of credulity to the point it was actually funny enough to be a punchline."

If you consider that to be bullying then I definitely question what you consider to be a toxic medical school environment.

 

[Redpancreas]

As per the comment below, I respectfully disagree and do 100% consider this to be bullying.

"based on the other examples, I’m going to guess that the accommodations requested were a stretch. Schools are required to make reasonable accommodations, but I’m willing to bet the requested accommodations were not only unreasonable, but stretched the limits of credulity to the point it was actually funny enough to be a punchline.

not bullying

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

As per the comment below, I respectfully disagree and do 100% consider this to be bullying.

"based on the other examples, I’m going to guess that the accommodations requested were a stretch. Schools are required to make reasonable accommodations, but I’m willing to bet the requested accommodations were not only unreasonable, but stretched the limits of credulity to the point it was actually funny enough to be a punchline."

He said he bets the accommodations asked for were not reasonable. That is not bullying.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

By the way, just for people’s interest, if you think your future employer cares about your family emergencies... oh boi, you are in for quite a surprise.

 

[Goro]

1) if a student has a chronic illness that is so bad it precludes them from scheduling routine appointments around their academic responsibilities, they need to consider a LOA. A doctors appointment is not carte Blanche to miss mandatory activities.

2) the school is under no obligation to indulge anyone’s religious beliefs. Most will work with students as best they can, but there is no world in which you can look at 7-10 years of medical educations and expect no conflicts with religious observance. In reality, the only times I’ve ever seen this be a problem are when students wait til the last minute to ask for time off. The responsible ones are emailing admin months in advance and adjusting their schedules as needed and have no problems at all.

3) why on earth would a school postpone a test date because a family member is sick or having surgery? They frequently offer a LOA if things are bad and nearly always make exceptions for emergencies. If something is planned enough in advance that there’s time to ask for a postponement, it probably doesn’t merit a postponement. Life happens while you’re in training or in practice.

4) medical schools have no obligation to treat a student’s illness. That’s between them and their physicians. Students are adult professionals and are perfectly capable of reaching out to admin on their own

5) based on the other examples, I’m going to guess that the accommodations requested were a stretch. Schools are required to make reasonable accommodations, but I’m willing to bet the requested accommodations were not only unreasonable, but stretched the limits of credulity to the point it was actually funny enough to be a punchline.

I have to say, based on what I’m hearing so far your school is being quite reasonable. These forums are littered with stories like yours of big bad schools and training programs that end up looking extremely reasonable once all the facts are known.

Thank you for your thoughtful response!

This question actually refers to multiple students, but yes, students actively asking for help regarding serious mental health issues.

And without revealing too much, students were requesting to miss preclinical lecture sessions on devout religious holidays. When someone is on call, they usually have the option of trying to switch dates with someone else. Additionally, doctors are also at least getting paid to care for patients during this time. On the other hand, schools are legally prohibited from religious discrimination against students.

OP, I'm going to avoid my usual NYese tough love talk because I can see that you're in a very vulnerable place right now. But for starters, your school has required lecture attendance? Is this a US MD school? If so, what penal colony is this? Or are you referring to required events like TBL/ PBL team exercises?

My school and others have a robust advising or mentoring system. I think we modeled ours on NYMC, which has "houses" (think Harry Potter). Suggest this to your Dean of Student Services. Also talk to a trusted faculty member

I strongly advise you to consider taking a LOA and/or reaching out to your school counseling or support center, or your family doctro. This is NOT giving medical advice.

 

[deleted1098366]

If you consider that to be bullying then I definitely question what you consider to be a toxic medical school environment.

How is considering students with disabilities applying for accommodations considered to be outlandish / inappropriate / excessive / funny? I think maybe it's difficult for people who don't have disabilities to understand this concept, but the medical community is notorious for disregarding students or doctors with disabilities. I think it's disappointing that there can't be more empathy about this, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[deleted1098366]

OP, I'm going to avoid my usual NYese tough love talk because I can see that you're in a very vulnerable place right now. But for starters, your school has required lecture attendance? Is this a US MD school? If so, what penal colony is this? Or are you referring to required events like TBL/ PBL team exercises?

My school and others have a robust advising or mentoring system. I think we modeled ours on NYMC, which has "houses" (think Harry Potter). Suggest this to your Dean of Student Services. Also talk to a trusted faculty member

I strongly advise you to consider taking a LOA and/or reaching out to your school counseling or support center, or your family doctro. This is NOT giving medical advice.

Thank you. I'm not saying that all of these things refer to me, specifically. There are many different students affected by this.

We do not have a mentoring system, unfortunately. How does someone find a trusted faculty member?

 

[ChiDO]

I fear for future generations.

If it's a chronic illness, you schedule your appointments around important tests/exams/etc.

If an immediate family member is dying, your school will give you time off.

If you have an ADA disability, I'm sure the school will make appropriate accommodations.

Your school, residency, employer does NOT care about your perceived micro-aggression, if you think you're being bullied, if you have been coddled all your life and now you are in the real world, if you are on call and you miss your...(kids receital, mom birthday, grandma dying, religious holiday, etc).

 

[deleted1098366]

He said he bets the accommodations asked for were not reasonable. That is not bullying.

I don't think that it's appropriate to assume that students with disabilities applying for accommodations is inappropriate or excessive just because they aren't automatically granted. I think that assumption would be very hurtful and damaging towards people who have spent their lives fighting to be taken seriously about this.

 

[deleted1098366]

I fear for future generations.

If it's a chronic illness, you schedule your appointments around important tests/exams/etc.

If an immediate family member is dying, your school will give you time off.

If you have an ADA disability, I'm sure the school will make appropriate accommodations.

Your school, residency, employer does NOT care about your perceived micro-aggression, if you think you're being bullied, if you have been coddled all your life and now you are in the real world, if you are on call and you miss your...(kids receital, mom birthday, grandma dying, religious holiday, etc).

Wow okay.

These statements are not aligned with my experience and have not held true at my school.

Why do you assume that I've been coddled all my life and now am in the real world for the first time? Or that I'm a member of a "future generation?" I've missed all of those things in the past, but do not consider a mom's birthday or a kid's recital to be equivalent to any of the things I was referring to in my post.

 

[Med Ed]

I don't think that it's appropriate to assume that students with disabilities applying for accommodations is inappropriate or excessive just because they aren't automatically granted. I think that assumption would be very hurtful and damaging towards people who have spent their lives fighting to be taken seriously about this.

One of my colleagues had a student who requested that he take all his exams in a room with an ambient room temperature of 73 degrees Fahrenheit. Not 74. Not 72.

Just sayin'.

 

[deleted1098366]

One of my colleagues had a student who requested that he take all his exams in a room with an ambient room temperature of 73 degrees Fahrenheit. Not 74. Not 72.

Just sayin'.

Lol that's an interesting one, I agree. On a very different level than the accommodations I'm referring to

 

[Lawpy]

Generally, totally agree. But I’ve seen students be denied just a short time off to go be with their family when one of their parents was dying of covid

What kind of cruel, authoritarian school is that? They should be reported and slammed

 

[deleted1098366]

By the way, just for people’s interest, if you think your future employer cares about your family emergencies... oh boi, you are in for quite a surprise.

I think that there's definitely a broad spectrum of what constitutes a family emergency, as well as what an employer will "care" about. That has been my personal experience and is not specific to just hospitals/medicine.

 

[deleted1098366]

not bullying

Okay, I invite you to show that comment to someone with a disability and ask their thoughts on it.

 

[Lawpy]

By the way, just for people’s interest, if you think your future employer cares about your family emergencies... oh boi, you are in for quite a surprise.

That depends on the employer and what exactly the emergency is. There's no one rule. There are crappy employers just like there are crappy malignant schools.

 

[deleted1098366]

Generally, totally agree. But I’ve seen students be denied just a short time off to go be with their family when one of their parents was dying of covid

That's really sad. I'm sorry to hear that. That sounds like something that happens at my school.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't think that it's appropriate to assume that students with disabilities applying for accommodations is inappropriate or excessive just because they aren't automatically granted. I think that assumption would be very hurtful and damaging towards people who have spent their lives fighting to be taken seriously about this.

You’re making a lot of inferences from his post that no one else seems to be making. I have seen what I consider reasonable accommodations denied, but there have been complicating circumstances that don’t make it so cut and dry. And the admin was still trying to work it out. I’ve never seen admin just flat out deny reasonable accommodations.

 

[Goro]

We do not have a mentoring system, unfortunately. How does someone find a trusted faculty member?

I'm going to be honest here, Z, that fact that you would ask something like this makes me worried. There are no faculty to whom you like or respect? Or have any sort of bond??? There's not a single faculty member to whom you would turn to for advice with a personal problem???

 

[SurfingDoctor]

That depends on the employer and what exactly the emergency is. There's no one rule. There are crappy employers just like there are crappy malignant schools.

No it doesn’t. The hospital system doesn’t care. Welcome to real life. The best you can do is get colleagues to cover for you or you take FMLA where you get no paycheck, you just don’t get fired.

 

[deleted1098366]

I'm going to be honest here, Z, that fact that you would ask something like this makes me worried. There are no faculty to whom you like or respect? Or have any sort of bond??? There's not a single faculty member to whom you would turn to for advice with a personal problem???

Well, there's a difference between liking someone or having some level of bond and being able to confide in them/ trust them with something that relates to their peers and employer. For example, I have thought that I could confide in someone in the past who offered to help, but that did not wind up staying between us. There are many other students I know who have had the same or similar experiences.

 

[Lawpy]

No it doesn’t. The hospital system doesn’t care. Welcome to real life. The best you can do is get colleagues to cover for you or you take FMLA where you get no paycheck, you just don’t get fired.

I still think it depends on the hospital system and the type of emergency.

 

[deleted1098366]

You’re making a lot of inferences from his post that no one else seems to be making. I have seen what I consider reasonable accommodations denied, but there have been complicating circumstances that don’t make it so cut and dry. And the admin was still trying to work it out. I’ve never seen admin just flat out deny reasonable accommodations.

I respectfully disagree with your first comment and I'm guessing you don't find it offensive because it doesn't apply to you. If you showed that sentence to someone with a disability, I would be surprised if they were not hurt by it. I think it's great that you've never seen admin flat out deny reasonable accommodations, but I have on multiple occasions for multiple people, and that's what I've been trying to say. I don't think it's fair to assume that something is unreasonable simply because it was denied. Unfortunately, not every school works the same way in what it's willing to do for its students.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I respectfully disagree with your first comment and I'm guessing you don't find it offensive because it doesn't apply to you. If you showed that sentence to someone with a disability, I would be surprised if they were not hurt by it. I think it's great that you've never seen admin flat out deny reasonable accommodations, but I have on multiple occasions for multiple people, and that's what I've been trying to say. I don't think it's fair to assume that something is unreasonable simply because it was denied. Unfortunately, not every school works the same way in what it's willing to do for its students.

What kind of disabilities are we talking about here?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No it doesn’t. The hospital system doesn’t care. Welcome to real life. The best you can do is get colleagues to cover for you or you take FMLA where you get no paycheck, you just don’t get fired.

Lol it’s definitely not like that here. At least not in the surgery program.