so if I say something like the program is on the top of my list, does it mean No. 1 or lets say No. 1-3....how to best express it is somewhere between No. 1-3...
thx..
thx..
how to express interest
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Since they'll completely ignore it, you can say whatever you want. Seriously...they don't care.
Only tell your #1 they are your #1 and the others tell them they are at the top. Doing this may or may not help and it may depend on how the program feels about you as well. But one thing that is most likely certain is that it won't hurt. Just don't lie as that would be unprofessional and you may be in contact with these same places in the future come fellowship or other job opportunities.
Suppose the program director assumes two things: (a) you are not a liar, and (b) you will notify your #1 choice of their status, because that is a dominant strategy in a setting where everyone is doing it.
Then:
1. If you tell the program director that her program is your #1 choice, she will infer that to be true (following directly from A above).
2. If you do not tell the program director that her program is your #1 choice, she will infer that her program is not your #1 choice (following directly from both A and B above).
3. If you use any language other than "you are my #1 choice", then she will infer that her program is not your #1 choice (following directly from both A and B above).
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Wow, it sounds almost obligatory to notify your #1 that it's #1. I didn't know it was so commonplace. Good to know.
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I would tell my #1 program they're my #1, and not tell any other program anything. From a program's perspective, knowing someone has ranked you #1 is useful because they know they'll get you if they go down far enough in their list (or, that if they rank you to match, they will definitely get you). If the program is #2 or worse on your list, that's not nearly as useful for ranking purposes.
Just like if a program tells you that you're "ranked to match" versus "ranked highly." You don't know with the latter what that means exactly, but "ranked to match" has no room for interpretation.
Just like if a program tells you that you're "ranked to match" versus "ranked highly." You don't know with the latter what that means exactly, but "ranked to match" has no room for interpretation.
I typically advise my students to do as VMSmith describes. This is because (c) while in general most students tell the program director at their #1 choice that her program is their #1 choice, not all students do.
So then
4. If you do not tell the program director that her program is your #1 choice, she will infer either that her program is not your #1 choice (following directly from both A and B in my previous post) or that you simply don't play that game.
If you say nothing, the latter ("hmm, I guess this medical student doesn't play that game") is a plausible inference. Perhaps unlikely, but plausible.
If you say something stupid like "I will rank you highly" then the program director knows with certainty that her program is not your #1 choice (see #3 in my previous post).
In terms of whether 'most' programs want to hear the magic words, certainly at our program it would depend on the competitiveness of your overall application. If you were not a competitive applicant, then whether you say the magic words or not we don't care. If you are a highly competitive applicant that we considering placing in the "rank to match" list (vs. top 20 but not quite ranked to match) but we are pretty sure you are going to go to Columbia, for example, then we might not rank you to match. From our program director's perspective, she has a limited number of those slots and, from the perspective of recruiting purposes, she would not want to waste them on someone who is not going to come to our program anyway. (Obviously you would have to assume [d] the program director is not a liar.)
So then
4. If you do not tell the program director that her program is your #1 choice, she will infer either that her program is not your #1 choice (following directly from both A and B in my previous post) or that you simply don't play that game.
If you say nothing, the latter ("hmm, I guess this medical student doesn't play that game") is a plausible inference. Perhaps unlikely, but plausible.
If you say something stupid like "I will rank you highly" then the program director knows with certainty that her program is not your #1 choice (see #3 in my previous post).
In terms of whether 'most' programs want to hear the magic words, certainly at our program it would depend on the competitiveness of your overall application. If you were not a competitive applicant, then whether you say the magic words or not we don't care. If you are a highly competitive applicant that we considering placing in the "rank to match" list (vs. top 20 but not quite ranked to match) but we are pretty sure you are going to go to Columbia, for example, then we might not rank you to match. From our program director's perspective, she has a limited number of those slots and, from the perspective of recruiting purposes, she would not want to waste them on someone who is not going to come to our program anyway. (Obviously you would have to assume [d] the program director is not a liar.)
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I find this all pretty confusing. What happened to the NRMP mantra that both programs and applicants should submit rank lists simply based on order of preference?
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The world is a f*@%ed up place.
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Programs would prefer to have someone who really wants to be there.
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When is a good time to express this interest? Midway through interview season?
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When you put it that way, sure. But it's a bit of a false dichotomy between "number one choice" and "couldn't get in anywhere else". I'd think most people would be happy at the majority of places they rank, with maybe the bottom 2 or 3 only ranked because they're preferable to scrambling. So letting the PD know that you'd love to match there would seem sufficient. I mean, I've rotated at my top 3 choices, and I'm still not sure how I'll rank them, but I'd be very happy to do my residency at any of them or at most of the places where I've interviewed.
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My guess would be after interview season, but before we have to submit our rank lists. But I too am curious to know what the general consensus on this is.
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I recently sent the PDs at my #1 (it's dually accredited) my intent to rank them as #1. But the impression I'm getting is not to update other programs that you're interested in them?
I want my #2 and #3 to know I'm still very much interested in them but don't want to let on they're #2 and #3. Of course, I don't want them to forget me, either. I feel as if a vague email would paint a clear enough picture for them to suggest where they'll be on my list but I also don't want to drop to spot #4-6 come match day.
I want my #2 and #3 to know I'm still very much interested in them but don't want to let on they're #2 and #3. Of course, I don't want them to forget me, either. I feel as if a vague email would paint a clear enough picture for them to suggest where they'll be on my list but I also don't want to drop to spot #4-6 come match day.
that is what I am asking too - how to express strong, but not No. 1. interest without letting them know they are not No. 1., but No. 2 and 3..
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Let me run this through the Med Student --> PD Google Translate algorithm.
MS: "I will be ranking you #1." --> PD: "It's possible that I will be ranking you #1...or I could be lying to try to get you to rank me higher...whatever, I just want to match somewhere and your program seems less bad than most."
MS: "I will be ranking your program highly." --> PD: "Wait...did I even interview at your program? Well...I'll put it on my list anyway, seems better than not matching...probably."
You guys are way overthinking this. Say whatever you want. Try not to lie (although you'll have a fair amount of company if you take this approach). If you want to tell a program they're #3, tell them that. If you tell them anything other than "you're #1" they will assume you're not ranking them #1.
You can express interest without mentioning ranking at all. Tell the program director that you enjoyed your visit and why, then briefly explain why you think you're a good match for the program. Then rank the programs that you visited in the order you liked them.
Don't expect your expression of interest to have much effect on the program's rank list--you would probably move ahead of a similarly-scored person who had not sent an email, but you won't leap frog to the top of the ROL. We get those emails from a significant percentage of applicants, and we can't move everyone into a "ranked to match" position. Of course, you could already be at the top of their list, in which case your email would solidify your position.
If you rank programs in your order of preference, and programs do the same the Match will generally work out for both parties.
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It seems that programs and program directors get these messages all the time. Is it ever punitive for sending thank you notes or these kinds of emails? Can there be instances where it could ever hurt someone? I know a few programs explicitly state on their website that messages won't do any good but the vast majority don't say anything.
We've never responded punitively, and we tell applicants that writing to us post-interview isn't necessary (unless they have a question). Mostly the Associate PD and I just look at each other and say "Isn't that nice" every time we get a note promising we'll be ranked first (or highly).
So, basically, I'd recommend doing whatever the program says their preference is. If there's no stated preference but you're worried about doing the "wrong thing," ask the PC if there's a preference or policy. Then rank the programs you visited in your order or preference without a second thought about correspondence you have or have not received from the programs. Be true to yourself and pay attention to your instincts. Even if you don't match with the top program(s) on your rank list, you'll know you gave yourself your best chance.
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What abouot getting someone to place a call for you to your top place.
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If they are famous or know the PD at that program, go for it. If not...meh.
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I'm definitely not an attending, just a lowly MS4, but this seems a little backwards to me. I would think/hope that after a program has interviewed you and had that face-to-face time to gauge whether or not they think you are a good fit for their program, that encouragement from faculty of outside institutions would not be all that helpful. I would think these kind of phone calls may be helpful in getting an applicant an initial interview invite (vouching that the candidate is better than may appear on paper and encouraging the program to give the applicant some strong consideration), but after the program has evaluated you in the interview, why should it matter what someone at another institution says? Who cares if THEY like the applicant, they dont have to work with them for 3-4 years... I don't know, maybe I'm just being idealistic and don't want to believe that this whole process is just a political game. I'd rather buy into the whole "we want to find the best fit for our program" and not the "we want the residents with the most famous connections, even if they didn't make a strong enough impression in the interview to make us want them"
Haha, that being said, if it really does help for well known faculty to make those phone calls, please let me know. I'm lucky enough to come from a strong program with lots of big fancy famous faculty and don't mind exercising my resources and playing the game if that's the standard of play...
...Re-reading this post, I definitely am coming off as a cynical jerk, but just know it's actually written light-heartedly, with a smile on my face. I could go back and insert a bunch of emoticons, but that also would be douchey. so i'll just submit.
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Because of some time-consuming side-projects I've been involved in the past few months, it worked best for me to schedule all of my interviews no earlier than Dec 10th, hence, I am actually just now getting started down the interview trail. In thinking about the whole expressing interest/letting the program know where they fall on your rank list, this is something you do completely separate from the post-interview thank you letter, correct? The expression of interest would be something that should come closer to rank list time, right?
Secondly, I understand that aside from thanking the interviewer, the post-interview thank you note ideally should include a reference to something you discussed during the interview to kind of remind them who you were... But would someone mind giving an ACTUAL example of the appropriate way to do this? I get the concept, but just kind of struggling with how much detail to include and how to go about concluding the letter.. "Dr. Orangejello, Thank you for the chance to interview at your program. I really enjoyed our discussion about great places to golf. (Don't know where to go from here in the note.. cant think of anything that isnt cheesey/awkward)... anyways,if someone would be so kind as to share an example of a note they sent, it would be much appreciated 🙂
Secondly, I understand that aside from thanking the interviewer, the post-interview thank you note ideally should include a reference to something you discussed during the interview to kind of remind them who you were... But would someone mind giving an ACTUAL example of the appropriate way to do this? I get the concept, but just kind of struggling with how much detail to include and how to go about concluding the letter.. "Dr. Orangejello, Thank you for the chance to interview at your program. I really enjoyed our discussion about great places to golf. (Don't know where to go from here in the note.. cant think of anything that isnt cheesey/awkward)... anyways,if someone would be so kind as to share an example of a note they sent, it would be much appreciated 🙂
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Actually, it's racist to automatically assume if someone refers to an individual named Orangejello as a physician, they must be kidding/making a racist comment. Why is it hard to believe someone named Orangejello can be a physician?
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Maybe that's how they do it at your program, but that's not how we do it. We do follow the "mantra" of ranking the people we want in the order that we want them. There's no "gaming the system" here, because I don't think you really can game the match.
Sure, but they'd rather have someone qualified and capable of becoming a <insert specialty here> than someone who is less qualified or no one at all.
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FWIW, I was told by one of my interviewers (at a very respected IM program) that I should tell my top choice, whoever it is, that they're my #1. He said that at his program, it's used as a tie-breaker. Student A & B are otherwise equal, but student A said "you're my #1!" while student B did not, therefore A gets ranked just above B.
Now whether a difference of 1 spot on their list matters at all and is worth this amount of frustration & headache is a different story.
Obviously, this is going to vary from program to program & specialty to specialty.
Now whether a difference of 1 spot on their list matters at all and is worth this amount of frustration & headache is a different story.
Obviously, this is going to vary from program to program & specialty to specialty.
So the general consensus is that it is not advisable to tell a place "I will rank you #2?" I haven't done that, but I was thinking it might be better than vague noncommittal language because I really like my #2, to the point that the distinction between 1 and 2 is almost arbitrary.
But from what I'm gathering here, if they aren't ranked 1, any other language means nothing?
But from what I'm gathering here, if they aren't ranked 1, any other language means nothing?
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Second place is just first loser.
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A lot of you guys are really overthinking this. Tell your #1 that they're your #1 and let the rest of the chips fall where they may. Send thank you letters expressing your genuine appreciation for them taking the time to interview you and let you get more acquainted with their program.
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Since programs can start to submit a rank list Jan 15, do you write a letter stating they are your number 1 right before this date? Or do you wait till a little later since the final isnt due till Feb 20th and interviews are not over. I would presume its better to have it before Jan 15th just incase...?
I certainly hope that Prowler is right.
Ive been interested in programs out of the area, but it seems really hard to get in at remote cities +/- suburbs. Eg, 4-5 interviews in OH and MI each with from what Ive heard from 2-3 PDs is a great app, but it always seems like they have a hard time believing (unstated) that Im very interested in their program even though I give a great explanation/enthusiasm. Some of the top programs may have poor housing options, residents, or maybe I just screwed up an interview.
Anyone else know how often programs only list the ones that they "can get" and will not rank/lower competitive applicants? I'm guessing competitive applicants are very common this year and would be especially true if they suspect that I will be participating in both md+do matches.
Ive been interested in programs out of the area, but it seems really hard to get in at remote cities +/- suburbs. Eg, 4-5 interviews in OH and MI each with from what Ive heard from 2-3 PDs is a great app, but it always seems like they have a hard time believing (unstated) that Im very interested in their program even though I give a great explanation/enthusiasm. Some of the top programs may have poor housing options, residents, or maybe I just screwed up an interview.
Anyone else know how often programs only list the ones that they "can get" and will not rank/lower competitive applicants? I'm guessing competitive applicants are very common this year and would be especially true if they suspect that I will be participating in both md+do matches.
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But, but... what difference does it make where the applicant might end up? Whether you ranked the Columbia applicant first or last, they'd still end up at Columbia if they both rank each other highly and you'd end up with the same candidates anyway. How are you wasting any resource on these applicants if you've already interviewed them? Do programs have some limit to how many people they can rank or something?
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They can only tell a few people they're ranking them to match. In programs where that phrase is used as a recruiting tool, that can make the difference between being ranked to match and being "very highly ranked."
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Your confusion is understandable. Since the whole situation doesn't make much sense.
Theoretically, everyone (programs and applicants) should rank in the order that they want people. No other strategy can generate a better match for programs and applicants*. Thus, there seems to be no benefit to this whole "rank to match" insanity.
But, this assumes that programs and applicants don't rejigger their rank lists based on communications like this. Let's say you really liked your top 3 programs equally. Then you get an email from one program, they really love you, you're "ranked to match". One of the other programs sends you a generic "we'd love to have you if you match with us". Perhaps you decide to rank the program that sends you the love note at the top -- you figure might as well go to the program that really wants you, rather than one that isn't willing to commit. So, there is some theoretical benefit to programs in sending out these emails (if you think that some applicants will change their rank lists based upon them).
In that case, programs really shouldn't send out more RTM (rank to match) emails than slots that they have. Realistically, programs may send out more figuring that they won't get all of their top picks. regardless, programs now have to choose which applicants will be in the top X spots which get the RTM emails. So now they pick through those applications, trying to find the ones they think they have the best chance of / want to influence.
Also, some PD's use "distance down the rank list" as a marker of success. In that case, knowing who will rank you #1 might alter rank lists. I personally think this is nuts, but to each their own.
There's no limit to the number of ranks I can submit, and no increase in cost.
So, yes, this whole situation is crazy. The NRMP just published this statement trying to get programs and applicants to stop with this craziness. But it's not going to stop. The fact is that, in most programs and specialties, it's not going to matter at all. I'd like to pretend that it doesn't affect me at all -- for the most part, I think it doesn't. But I want my program full of people who want to be there. If I had my #47 but it was their last choice, or I could have my #48 but it was their first choice, I'd want the latter.
Of course, I'm so used to people lying to me that I no longer believe any of it.
I m not sure what would be a good way to ask for this sort of help... any suggestions?
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Having your chairman, PD or attending with connections make a call on your behalf will help, more so if they are well known.
This becomes even more important the smaller the field (derm, rad onc, and then fellowships like gi, heme onc, mfm, etc).
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Talk to one of your letter writers. Tell them you are really interested in program X, and you want to know if they would be willing to contact the program on your behalf.
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Thank you for your thoughtful response... I was worried that my question/confusion wouldn't make sense. I hope the NRMP match tips bring some order to this, because you're right, it's completely crazy!
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Any advice specific for couples match? I feel like it is almost a requirement for us to contact our top programs because we need our departments (ob/gyn and path) to communicate with each other. I'm thinking about going with the "you're #2" strategy. 😕
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Actually, there is no need for the two departments to talk to each other. OB ranks one of you. Path ranks the other. Each is completely independent of each other. You choose your couple's linked rank list. Now the match does its magic, and places you into programs. Whether OB and Path talk or not really doesn't matter.
In reality, most programs probably do talk. But mostly (for me) its fact finding. If I'm the OB PD, I kinda want to know what the Path program thinks of their candidate. If I was called by the path PD who tells me that they are ranking their candidate #1, and what was I doing? Would I change where the OB candidate was on the rank list? Probably not. I'd know that if I fell that low on my rank list, that a lack of a path match wouldn't be a problem. Maybe I'd move the person up some (especially if they were "tied" with someone above them on the rank list). But often it has no effect.
Where most of the program-list-jiggering-for-couples happens is when a couple applies to the same program. Now I have two applicants, A and B, both want a spot with me. A is a superstar. B is a middle-of-the-road candidate. Maybe I move B up to be next to A, figure I'm willing to take a less strong candidate to get my more strong option (again, assuming that I think you both want to be here. If B wants my program and A wants to go to Man's Best Hospital across the street, this strategy backfires).
OTOH, if A is an OK candidate and B is markedly weaker, perhaps I move A down to B.
Or, maybe I just leave the two of you at different points on the rank list and let nature take its course.
So, you see, trying to predict any of this from your end is a fool's errand. As is my trying to predict what you will do. So, again, for most programs / most fields, post match "love notes" probably don't change much.
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