How to find an attorney to review my employment contract?

[DoctorWannaBe]

I have been offered a position and am now trying to find an attorney to review the contract. I'm not having much luck on Google when I search for variations of "physician employment contract attorney". Does anyone know the best way to find an attorney, or has anyone hired an employment contract attorney in California that they can recommend? The CAFP can hook me up with their lawyer, but it costs $700 for nonmembers. From what I've heard, I can find it for $300-500, so I'd like to shop around.

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[TexasPhysician]

Try not googling "contract attorney". If attorney's specialized in only physician contracts, they would probably be out of business. Any good contract attorney can explain the contract to you.

 

[turquoiseblue]

try prepaidlegal.com
they are very affordable. they have lawyers that will review your documents and its only around $20 or so per month (rates vary from state to state). they're pretty good for minor things like reviewing contracts or asking for legal advice.

 

[Arcan57]

try prepaidlegal.com
they are very affordable. they have lawyers that will review your documents and its only around $20 or so per month (rates vary from state to state). they're pretty good for minor things like reviewing contracts or asking for legal advice.

It's worth spending the cash to have someone with specific experience in contract law. I'd ask physicians in the group or area you are moving to who they used. There are a lot of ways to get hosed on a contract (and that's true for mom and pop groups up to large practice management corps), and most are not apparent to a lay person and some are not going to be apparent to a general counsel.

 

[Law2Doc]

I have been offered a position and am now trying to find an attorney to review the contract. I'm not having much luck on Google when I search for variations of "physician employment contract attorney". Does anyone know the best way to find an attorney, or has anyone hired an employment contract attorney in California that they can recommend? The CAFP can hook me up with their lawyer, but it costs $700 for nonmembers. From what I've heard, I can find it for $300-500, so I'd like to shop around.

Ask physicians, or call your local bar association. Or look up employment law, contract law etc in your area on Martindale.com (the major lawyer listing database). Stay away from folks who advertise, or firms that from their websites mostly do personal injury, criminal law and the like. You can get by with a small firm/solo practitioner, but it needs to be someone who has experience with physician agreements.

 

[Law2Doc]

try prepaidlegal.com
they are very affordable. they have lawyers that will review your documents and its only around $20 or so per month (rates vary from state to state). they're pretty good for minor things like reviewing contracts or asking for legal advice.

Um, no. To some extent you get what you pay for in law.

 

[Smurfette]

Can't help you with someone in California, but...

1. Ask recent grads from your program who they used.
2. Ask your GME department. Ours had a list of local attorneys who offered their services at a discounted rate for residents.
3. Ask new attendings at your program....they likely just went through this themselves.
4. If you happen to have a financial adviser or an accountant, they may know of attorneys who do contract reviews for other physicians they work with, or may have heard of attorneys to avoid.

Make sure to use someone familiar with PHYSICIAN contracts. There are too many quirky things in our contracts that aren't applicable to any other field. It's also reassuring to be told your contract is similar to other physician contracts and they've seen this before (especially since if this is your first job, you haven't seen a contract before and don't know what is typical). It is worth the money spent to do this, considering how much a bad contract can screw you over. Your contract is for a six figure income; spending $600-1100 to review the contract is worth it to protect yourself for the duration of the contract.

 

[hivoltage]

call mark weiss in santa monica ca.. i dont know how much he charges

 

[gutonc]

Can't help you with someone in California, but...
Your contract is for a six figure income; spending $600-1100 to review the contract is worth it to protect yourself for the duration of the contract.

This.

While $500-1000 may seem like a huge chunk of change now, you'll make that back your first day of work as an attending.

Cheaping out here is similar to asking your kindergarten teacher to write you a residency LOR. It's possible that things will work out well for you, but highly unlikely.

 

[Tone2002]

So no one in your program, can help you with this or at least get you to someone who can help.

 

[Shikima]

Do contract lawyers need to have completed the bar in the state where the contract is being drawn up or can any lawyer render an opinion?

 

[Smurfette]

any lawyer can give an opinion, however, depending on the quirks of your contract (if really quirky), knowledge of the law in that state may be helpful, or could be looked up. I had a lawyer in the state of my residency review the contract for a position in a different state and it was fine...the contract was straightforward, so it wasn't an issue.

 

[Law2Doc]

any lawyer can give an opinion, however, depending on the quirks of your contract (if really quirky), knowledge of the law in that state may be helpful, or could be looked up. I had a lawyer in the state of my residency review the contract for a position in a different state and it was fine...the contract was straightforward, so it wasn't an issue.

Not 100% accurate. Just like doctors cannot practice medicine in states in which they are not licensed, a lawyer cannot practice law in a state in which he is not licensed. Unauthorized practice of law in a state you are not licensed is not permitted. Meaning a NY lawyer can, sitting in NY, represent a NY client and review or draw up a contract, which can apply another state's laws or involve another state's employment. So the lawyer who gave you (Smurfette) advice was fine, if he felt competent about that other state's laws (which is a big if, BTW). But a NY lawyer can't come to PA and represent a PA client on a PA contract. And so on. So no, "any lawyer" cannot render an opinion, legally. If an out of state lawyer not barred in your state or the state where you are signing a contract is giving you advice, be wary. If you reside where the lawyer resides, or if you go to a lawyer in the state where your employment is going to be, that generally works. Bear in mind that the onus of the obligation not to practice where you are not licensed is on the lawyer, though, so don't feel you have to research bar admissions on your lawyer, unless you so desire.

 

[Smurfette]

Not 100% accurate. Just like doctors cannot practice medicine in states in which they are not licensed, a lawyer cannot practice law in a state in which he is not licensed. Unauthorized practice of law in a state you are not licensed is not permitted. Meaning a NY lawyer can, sitting in NY, represent a NY client and review or draw up a contract, which can apply another state's laws or involve another state's employment. So the lawyer who gave you (Smurfette) advice was fine, if he felt competent about that other state's laws (which is a big if, BTW). But a NY lawyer can't come to PA and represent a PA client on a PA contract. And so on. So no, "any lawyer" cannot render an opinion, legally. If an out of state lawyer not barred in your state or the state where you are signing a contract is giving you advice, be wary. If you reside where the lawyer resides, or if you go to a lawyer in the state where your employment is going to be, that generally works. Bear in mind that the onus of the obligation not to practice where you are not licensed is on the lawyer, though, so don't feel you have to research bar admissions on your lawyer, unless you so desire.

Yes, to clarify, I resided in the state of the attorney I used. I also asked specifically about experience with contracts drawn up in the state of the contract (an adjacent state) to cover my bases, because I absolutely would have used a lawyer from the 'contract state' if I needed to. I had heard enough contract horror stories to want to protect myself as best I could.

However, I will tell you, when I was looking for a lawyer, many people suggested attorneys from neither my home state nor the contract state and did not seem to think it was a problem. Including our GME dept. So I didn't realize that using a lawyer from neither state was an issue....other than it just sounded a bit sketchier to me to use someone from hundreds of miles away to give me legal advice. It was due to my own comfort level that I picked a lawyer from where I lived. But I know of others who just wanted the cheapest option.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

However, I will tell you, when I was looking for a lawyer, many people suggested attorneys from neither my home state nor the contract state and did not seem to think it was a problem. Including our GME dept. So I didn't realize that using a lawyer from neither state was an issue....other than it just sounded a bit sketchier to me to use someone from hundreds of miles away to give me legal advice. It was due to my own comfort level that I picked a lawyer from where I lived. But I know of others who just wanted the cheapest option.

It turns on the license they have, not where they reside, though. So a lawyer living and practicing in Nebraska may be admitted to practice in Alabama and as long as he kept up on his dues and CLE requirements, he legally can advise someone living in Alabama about Alabama issues even if he hasn't been to that state since he took the bar exam 20 years ago. At the big law firms, there is probably someone licensed to practice in most of the contiguous states, so if issues come up, the lawyer who is actually appropriately licensed will appear on the correspondence, and his partners who have been advising you will have been "assisting him", not doing the actual practicing of law.

But cheapest option is not any better an idea in law than it is in medicine. You don't pick your orthopedic surgeon based on price, you really shouldn't pick your lawyer that way either.

 

[HCE]

But cheapest option is not any better an idea in law than it is in medicine. You don't pick your orthopedic surgeon based on price, you really shouldn't pick your lawyer that way either.

On the other hand, don't assume a lawyer is competent in all matters just because she/he charges a high fee. Get a referral from someone who has actually used the lawyer.

 

[Law2Doc]

On the other hand, don't assume a lawyer is competent in all matters just because she/he charges a high fee. Get a referral from someone who has actually used the lawyer.

I don't think I was implying that the most expensive lawyer is the best, but I am suggesting that the cheapest option is usually the worst. I would say you don't pick a lawyer based on price any more than you pick your surgeon based on price. This is not the kind of expenditure you make with coupons or based on an ad that gets put on your windshield. The dude who charges $20/month that one poster described above doesn't provide any more value than the surgeon who charges $20/month. Go by referral if you can. Look for telltale signs of legitimacy if you can't. Meaning lots of ads, tackiness, lowball prices, strip mall office locations are all bad signs.

 

[Kphrogg]

Does anyone know the best way to find an attorney, or has anyone hired an employment contract attorney in California that they can recommend?

Your best bet is to find lawyers the same way other lawyers do by using Martindale. First, find lawyers in the state where you're entering the contract, preferably the same county and city. Next, narrow it down by practice area. Finally, look at their rating. If they do not have an "A," "B," or "C," you don't want them. Anyone with an "A" is considered one of the best in the field by other lawyers. Make sure their rating has a "V" as well (AV, BV, or CV), which indicates that they have no ethical violations.

Feel free to PM me if you need any additional advice.

 

[Kphrogg]

While $500-1000 may seem like a huge chunk of change now, you'll make that back your first day of work as an attending.

Cheaping out here is similar to asking your kindergarten teacher to write you a residency LOR. It's possible that things will work out well for you, but highly unlikely.

Going for the most expensive isn't going to do a lot unless you need someone to negotiate the contract on your behalf. Employment contracts are usually relatively standard and not really open to variation.

 

[Law2Doc]

Your best bet is to find lawyers the same way other lawyers do by using Martindale. First, find lawyers in the state where you're entering the contract, preferably the same county and city. Next, narrow it down by practice area. Finally, look at their rating. If they do not have an "A," "B," or "C," you don't want them. Anyone with an "A" is considered one of the best in the field by other lawyers. Make sure their rating has a "V" as well (AV, BV, or CV), which indicates that they have no ethical violations.

Feel free to PM me if you need any additional advice.

Gotta disagree on the ratings system. Lawyers send these forms to their friends to rate them. I have rated many of my buddies as A. As have all lawyers. Yet very few can say with confidence that they are "best in the field". It just tells you they are liked by their friends. Most people are.

 

[Law2Doc]

Employment contracts are usually relatively standard and not really open to variation.

Um no, this is patently false when talking about professionals. Also many physicians join partnerships and are not merely negotiating an employment agreement, but there may be components of partnership agreements, noncompetes, and the like involved.

 

[sam1999]

One should always hire the best lawyer you can afford.

Are you a member of medical society if so then call ask them which lawyer do they use?

Otherwise look into www.law.com or www.lawyers.com and find lawyer in your area. Before committing to anyone, just ask them if they any experience for the speciality and kind of group practice you are pursuing? Or as others have said ask other doctors in your area or faculty member or program director/coordinator of your program. I am sure you will be not be the first person who would have asked this question!

 

[justaregularmed]

Um no, this is patently false when talking about professionals. Also many physicians join partnerships and are not merely negotiating an employment agreement, but there may be components of partnership agreements, noncompetes, and the like involved.

blugh to this

 

[Kphrogg]

Gotta disagree on the ratings system. Lawyers send these forms to their friends to rate them. I have rated many of my buddies as A. As have all lawyers. Yet very few can say with confidence that they are "best in the field". It just tells you they are liked by their friends. Most people are.

Yes, a lawyer can request peer reviews. However, the majority of the reviews are both random and anonymous. And when it comes down to it, there is no more trustworthy way of finding an objective review of a lawyer. If you ask for a referral, you will be referred to a buddy, who is not necessarily the most qualified. And the other ratings services, e.g., Avvo, are too easy to game.

 

[Law2Doc]

Yes, a lawyer can request peer reviews. However, the majority of the reviews are both random and anonymous. And when it comes down to it, there is no more trustworthy way of finding an objective review of a lawyer. If you ask for a referral, you will be referred to a buddy, who is not necessarily the most qualified. And the other ratings services, e.g., Avvo, are too easy to game.

It's still a popularity contest/political thing. Wouldn't pick a lawyer based on this, and this is from someone who was well rated and filled out lots of these forms.

 

[Amalgamate]

try prepaidlegal.com
they are very affordable. they have lawyers that will review your documents and its only around $20 or so per month (rates vary from state to state). they're pretty good for minor things like reviewing contracts or asking for legal advice.

I use prepaid legal, I've had them about a year and only had to call a few times. What they do is assign you a law firm in your area and they handle everything. The one in my area has like 100 different attorneys. It's kind of weird though because you call and you go through a call center that relays things to an attorney that calls you back, or acts on your behalf. I haven't had them look over an documents for me though, just make phone calls on my behalf, so I'm not sure how that is but I'll tell you my experience

The first time I had a repo man that kept coming to repo someones car that didn't live at my house (old resident I guess) and he would harass me everytime he came, which was almost every night at 1am. He kept insisting I was lying and that I was the guy, and would leave notices saying I was committing a felony by interfering with a property recovery. I called prepaid legal and they made a call to the repo company threatening them. I never heard from them again.

Second time was an apt I lived in kept charging me fines for ridiculous things like illegal parking and putting my garbage out on the wrong days. I didn't do either of those, prepaid legal called and requested documentation and proof. I got a call the next day from my apt telling me the charges were charged to the wrong apt.

So far they've been successful, there's somethings I probably wouldn't trust then with, but for 17 dollars a month it's worth signing up sending your contract and if they don't help just cancel, only 17 dollars wasted

 

[Smurfette]

I use prepaid legal, I've had them about a year and only had to call a few times. What they do is assign you a law firm in your area and they handle everything. The one in my area has like 100 different attorneys. It's kind of weird though because you call and you go through a call center that relays things to an attorney that calls you back, or acts on your behalf. I haven't had them look over an documents for me though, just make phone calls on my behalf, so I'm not sure how that is but I'll tell you my experience

The first time I had a repo man that kept coming to repo someones car that didn't live at my house (old resident I guess) and he would harass me everytime he came, which was almost every night at 1am. He kept insisting I was lying and that I was the guy, and would leave notices saying I was committing a felony by interfering with a property recovery. I called prepaid legal and they made a call to the repo company threatening them. I never heard from them again.

Second time was an apt I lived in kept charging me fines for ridiculous things like illegal parking and putting my garbage out on the wrong days. I didn't do either of those, prepaid legal called and requested documentation and proof. I got a call the next day from my apt telling me the charges were charged to the wrong apt.

So far they've been successful, there's somethings I probably wouldn't trust then with, but for 17 dollars a month it's worth signing up sending your contract and if they don't help just cancel, only 17 dollars wasted

While I'm glad you have found a prepaid service helpful for some things, I personally would not use this for a physician contract. There are a lot of nuances in a physician contract, and things that can haunt you for years to come professionally. Really. It's not easy to get out of a bad contract, and it will cost you WAY more money than it costs to review a contract up front. I'll repeat what I said earlier in this thread: it is worth $500-1000 to have it reviewed by someone with experience in these types of contracts. It sounds like a lot of money, but when you start hearing stories how how screwed people got by their contracts, you will understand. And your first paycheck as an attending (or a sign on bonus) will more than make up for it.

 

[Law2Doc]

....
So far they've been successful, there's somethings I probably wouldn't trust then with, but for 17 dollars a month it's worth signing up sending your contract and if they don't help just cancel, only 17 dollars wasted

no way. Just because they only charge $17 doesn't mean they can't cost you thousands down the road when you have trouble getting out of a bad contract. You have to realize that there are different tools for different jobs. Just because the guy at Jiffy Lube seems like he knows what he's doing during an oil change of a used ford, doesn't mean you want the guy doing engine work on your Ferrari.

And your career is the kind of thing you don't trust to a $20/mo service.