Please join me as I speak with Dr. Michael Ellison, Associate Dean for Admissions at Chicago Medical School at the Rosalind Franklin University. Dr. Ellison shares his insights on what makes Chicago Medical School unique, how to impress its admissions committee, and what all this information means for you as an applicant.
Thanks for joining me for this, the 544th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. I’d like to highlight for today’s listeners a wonderful resource when you’re invited to a medical school interview, and that is Accepted’s free download, The Ultimate Guide to Medical School Interview Success. In the guide, you will learn how to prepare for interviews (including those difficult questions), how to make sure your body language matches your intent, and proper interview follow-up. Download your complimentary copy today!
Now, let’s move into today’s interview. With a focus on interprofessionalism, the Chicago Medical School is one of five graduate schools in healthcare at Rosalind Franklin University in Chicago.
I’m delighted to have as a return guest on Admissions Straight Talk, Dr. Michael Ellison, Associate Dean for Admissions at Chicago Medical School. Dr. Ellison earned his doctorate in educational leadership from Roosevelt University of Chicago. He has worked in higher education, and specifically in medical school admissions and administration, for decades.
And so when I talk to students, they certainly talk about their level of excitement of sitting in a class with a classmate who is in a different program and kind of learning from them and how they will be looking at the patient that will be a little different from the way that the medical physician will be looking at the patient and they feel that it’s very helpful for them. We are certainly moving into a society that it is… we’re more team-based and team-approached.
And so I think incorporating that into our learning structure, our learning environment is most helpful for our students. And so we continue to work on this interprofessionaism. Our students also work in the sim lab with students from other programs as well, so not only do they get to learn theory, collaboratively, they also get to do practical kinds of opportunities as well in terms of our simulation lab.
We have learning communities at Chicago Medical School for the medical students that began their first year of med school, and they continue all the way through their fourth year, which gives them a smaller community to get to know. Because having 200 students in a class is pretty large, but having a smaller community that you really get to know well, we think it’s very helpful for students and getting them to feel connected to one another and connected to the medical school and university at large. Those are probably the things that are the newest things that are happening on campus.
We’re looking for candidates who truly want to do this. That they’re not looking at medicine as a nine-to-five kind of job or career. They’re looking at it in the sense of providing holistic medicine to the patient population they’re serving. Meaning that a physician has to also be resourceful in helping their patients with all the other needs that they may need, whether they need to see an optometrist or whether they need to see a social worker because they have some other challenges in their lives that may impact their ability for better care.
So it’s kind of hard to pinpoint one particular skill or characteristic that we’re looking for other than someone who is empathetic, want to be in the profession, willing to work long hours, willing to have good listening skills, and compassionate and thoughtful and someone who is willing to be a lifelong learner. So those… that’s what we’re looking for. Not much. Just a few things.
Shadowing is nice. You kind of get to see what a physician or a health provider does. You may be able to ask them questions about their lifestyle in those professions. But we really want someone to truly understand what is it going to be like to be a physician. What is it going to be like to work with people who are sick? We know that people, when they’re sick, they’re not always at their best. They don’t always feel well to speak to you in a very calm way.
So you got to be able to understand that when people are ill or frightened or scared because they don’t know what’s going on with them, that they may not be the most pleasant people. So having had some experience, whether it is working at a hospital or clinic, a nursing home, facility for individuals who may have mental health issues, it’s just a way of really helping the student to realize, “This is truly what I want to do.” And not invest four years in medical school and four years of medical school tuition to realize the time of graduation, “This is not what I want to do.”
What have they learned about themselves in the last two, three years of their educational experience? And then how have they overcome any hardships or challenges or unexpected things that may have happened in life? One of the core competencies that AAMC shares with students about what makes a good physician is adaptability and flexibility. So we want to see if you have been able to adapt and if you are flexible, and if you are one of those individuals that realize that even as much as you plan, not every day will go as you plan.
I only get nervous if people use the technology for the wrong reasons. I think technology is perfect when we use it for the right reasons. It’s bad when bad actors are using it and do things that are detrimental to our work and to society. I’m hoping that students will be honest with their work. That they will truly write their own personal statements to tell their story. We have to, I guess, be on the honor system that people are going to do the right thing. It is certainly a characteristic of a future physician or current physician is that they’re going to be truthful and honest and ethical.
And certainly, if you were using the ChatGPT to write your personal statement in its entirety, then you’re not being ethical because that’s someone else’s work. And so I would hope that maybe you’ll use it to maybe bounce a few ideas, but you really should write your statement that reflects your story, your journey. And again, keeping in mind that a physician holds the highest seat of ethical behavior than most other professions other than teachers as well, teachers and healthcare providers. We really count on you to be ethical and to do the right things.
So that’s one of the reasons we switched to PREview, and we’re using it again in a research capacity at this point in time to see if it gives us any additional data that would help us better select students who align with our mission, vision, and values. We moved a little bit away from CASPer because CASPer was truly initially designed for businesses and not necessarily for education. And we don’t know if it gave us the data that we thought we needed to help make decisions on who would be better aligned with our mission. So we’re going to try PREview and we’ll see what happens.
And so we really try to identify those candidates out of that large number who truly have a desire to work in community-based medicine to want to improve healthcare outcomes for vulnerable populations, who have an interest in giving back to communities that may be underserved or underinsured, for communities that may be rural, small communities, even large communities. So we want to make sure that we’re looking at students who truly have that interest. Because we are a community-based medical school, we are not connected to one single academic health system. Our students are going to get a wonderful education from a variety of different healthcare settings. We partner with about 28 different hospitals and health systems.
So our students will get a vast experience of working with these different patient populations, individuals who may be coming from very affluent communities to those who may be coming from very economically deprived, depressed communities. So they get to see everything and then are in a better position to choose what is it that they want to focus their careers on later when they finish medical school.
Tell the story of how your situation may have been impacted by your lived experiences. You have to tell people more than that, “I’m African American, or I’m Latino.” You have to tell how you were impacted by being from a community that historically has been disadvantaged. Students themselves, people themselves aren’t disadvantaged. We just put labels on people. Many times that has no bearing on who they are and what they are capable of doing. But you have to tell your story. You have to tell the story that will help the school the admissions committee to understand your true motivation for wanting to be a physician.
How you will contribute to, again, improving healthcare outcomes and providing better care to the patient population that you’ll serve. I would give them the advice as to work hard. I just met with a group of students earlier this week, and I’m really trying very hard to get students to realize that asking for help seeking help is not a weakness. That’s a strength. I think, in our educational system, we have done such a disadvantage to our learners because we made them learn as independent people and not working collaboratively. Then we send you to college, and so now we want you to work collaboratively.
We want you to work in teams and groups, and we find it difficult because someone isn’t going to carry their weight or someone is more competitive than the next. And, “I don’t want to share because you’re going to be higher than I am or you’re going to get a better grade than me,” and that’s not what medicine is all about. Medicine is about sharing and working collaboratively. And so if I had to give students advice, I would say, “Learn to work collaboratively. There’s a lot of knowledge out here that people expect you to know. You can’t always digest and learn everything that you might need to know by yourself.
And so why not join in with other individuals who may be stronger in a topic area than you are, and you help them with areas that they may not be as strong.” And so I would just say, “Be collaborative, ask questions, ask for help, talk to your professors during] office hours, participate in study groups whether they’re single study groups or large study groups, look at all the resources that may be available. But if you’re going to look at resources, you got to be able to determine the resources that are really good resources from those that are not so good. So you got to put your critical thinking skills in place that you’re not looking at information that is not evidence-based.”
I just spoke with the candidate last week who has been working with individuals who have ability issues. And the person is nonverbal, and you could hear in her explanation and about the work that she’s doing how she’s excited about it and realized that this is a population that we leave behind that’s hidden, who aren’t given the opportunities to fully participate in life because of a life-altering situation. And that we need to be more mindful of individuals who are in our community that may be different, but doesn’t mean that they aren’t capable of learning and loving and enjoying life. And so we-
And so our interview day is about five hours, five or six hours. I can’t remember. We start at nine in the morning and end at two. Two hours of that is us doing MMIs for a group of 36 per day, and then for the remainder of the day, they get a chance to chat with me, and I get a chance to chat with the interviewees.
We provide information about financial aid, talk about our student services, our student well-being programs. We have someone talk about the curriculum from first year through fourth year. So we get… I tell students the interview day is twofold. We are interviewing them, but they’re also interviewing us because, again, they have to have information to be able to decide if we’re going to be a good fit for them and vice versa.
But for the student who may have had some challenges getting their resources together or getting enough people to write them letters of recommendation. We know that things happen that prevent people from always submitting an application at the beginning of the cycle. So if you complete an application by November 1st, there is still a possibility that you could be invited for an interview. We are on rolling admissions.
And I know it’s not intentional, but it sends a signal that you aren’t paying attention, and as a physician, details are very important. And so that’s one mistake that I see. This year, I saw an applicant not complete two of the secondary essay questions. I’m not sure why. I think we made a call to see if it was just a technical glitch or something. But you should definitely complete the entire application or not submit it.
And so my friends laugh at this too, but it’s true. I would prefer to just sit in the back of the room and be quiet and observe. But, if you’re interviewing, you can’t sit in the back of the room. You can’t observe because someone is assessing, one, your ability to communicate. And if you don’t talk, they can’t assess because that’s a big part of assessing one’s communication. And then another part of that is your nonverbal communication. Are you giving good eye contact? Are you smiling or frowning, or are you distracted by something else that’s going on?
So I would say that’s probably the biggest thing I see on MMI day or interview days is students are just so anxious and so nervous that they don’t always convey their best selves. And we talk to our interviewers, particularly our first interview day was this Tuesday, and we said to all of the interviewers, “Be mindful that this may be the first interview day for many of the candidates. Many of them will be nervous, and we have to help them feel comfortable to be able to be their authentic selves.” And we certainly try to make that happen.
I do think that individuals who apply later will still have a chance. Now, whether they’ll have a greater chance, I don’t know. Because, personally, I think at the beginning of the cycle, members of the admissions committee are fresh. They’re looking at applications for the first time. They’ve had the summer to kind of take a break.
And then, as the season progresses, you can… you have read a number of applications, and so now people may be a little bit more… they may be looking for a little bit more than they did at the beginning of the cycle. Because, again, we can only invite so many people. And at some point, you have to say no to a lot of candidates who are truly well-prepared and will make great physicians. But I think they have a greater chance earlier in the cycle.
It’s kind of like the lottery. You play it in hopes of winning. And sometimes, you win, and sometimes you don’t.
It could be that you needed grades from your last semester to really improve your GPA. So it may be a combination of things. Again, because all the medical schools, I won’t speak for my colleagues, but we all get more applications than we have seats for. And clearly there are going to be individuals who I said… as I said before, are well-qualified to go to med school but just for whatever reason didn’t get… make the cut that year. And I had counsel and worked with many students who have been re-applicants who got in the second year.
And some may have applied a third year, and they got in. So again, it just really depends on you and your motivation for wanting to do this and your sticktuitiveness. I think if you are going to be a re-applicant, I think you really need to look at your application and make sure that you are changing your application to show the different things that you’ve done since the last time that you applied to medical school as well.
And I think, a lot of times, students are disappointed because they’re looking at their classmate who may have been accepted early and they haven’t gotten even the first invitation to interview. Well, that’s that person’s journey. That’s not your journey. And I’ve been trying to share with students that, “When it’s your time, it will happen if you do all of the work. You got to do the work now.” And so, for some candidates, coming directly out of college is not their journey to get them to med school. We’ve had students who’ve had maybe four years gap years before they applied to come to med school.
And recently, there’ve been individuals who have had a career, and now it’s their time, and they’ve applied, interviewed, and have been accepted. So my advice would be is work as hard as you can, do all the things that are necessary for you to be a good applicant. Truly know that this is what you want to do. And then just follow your passion and don’t assess yourself by your father, your mother, your brother, your sister. Do it because this is you, and this is your journey.
This article was originally posted on blog.accepted.com
Thanks for joining me for this, the 544th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. I’d like to highlight for today’s listeners a wonderful resource when you’re invited to a medical school interview, and that is Accepted’s free download, The Ultimate Guide to Medical School Interview Success. In the guide, you will learn how to prepare for interviews (including those difficult questions), how to make sure your body language matches your intent, and proper interview follow-up. Download your complimentary copy today!
Now, let’s move into today’s interview. With a focus on interprofessionalism, the Chicago Medical School is one of five graduate schools in healthcare at Rosalind Franklin University in Chicago.
I’m delighted to have as a return guest on Admissions Straight Talk, Dr. Michael Ellison, Associate Dean for Admissions at Chicago Medical School. Dr. Ellison earned his doctorate in educational leadership from Roosevelt University of Chicago. He has worked in higher education, and specifically in medical school admissions and administration, for decades.
Dr. Ellison, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. Thank you so much for joining me today. [1:53]
Linda, it’s my pleasure to be with you again, and thank you for asking me to come back.My pleasure. Can you give us an overview of the Chicago Medical School program focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:02]
Sure. I think the university itself is really focused and dedicated on improving healthcare outcomes for the patients that our future providers will provide. And in doing so, interprofessionalism is really a strong tenant for the university and for the medical school, and other programs as well. You mentioned about five colleges. Now, we have a sixth college, which is the College of Nursing, that have some entry-level programs for those who are seeking advanced degrees, and it is now an additional tool in our toolkit to help with interprofessionalism. And so you’ll see, again, students from the medical school taking courses with students from other health science programs, whether it be podiatry, pharmacy, physician assistant, path assistant, and then nursing.And so when I talk to students, they certainly talk about their level of excitement of sitting in a class with a classmate who is in a different program and kind of learning from them and how they will be looking at the patient that will be a little different from the way that the medical physician will be looking at the patient and they feel that it’s very helpful for them. We are certainly moving into a society that it is… we’re more team-based and team-approached.
And so I think incorporating that into our learning structure, our learning environment is most helpful for our students. And so we continue to work on this interprofessionaism. Our students also work in the sim lab with students from other programs as well, so not only do they get to learn theory, collaboratively, they also get to do practical kinds of opportunities as well in terms of our simulation lab.
What’s new since we last spoke in 2021? Hopefully, the pandemic is in our rearview mirror, which was not the case then. [4:08]
Well, again, I just mentioned the new College of Nursing that is on board, so that is something that is new. The medical school itself is always reinventing itself in terms of how we can better service our students, and so we’ve made a lot of changes in our student affairs staffing. We brought on additional staff to help advise our medical students through all four years of their medical school experience.We have learning communities at Chicago Medical School for the medical students that began their first year of med school, and they continue all the way through their fourth year, which gives them a smaller community to get to know. Because having 200 students in a class is pretty large, but having a smaller community that you really get to know well, we think it’s very helpful for students and getting them to feel connected to one another and connected to the medical school and university at large. Those are probably the things that are the newest things that are happening on campus.
In terms of what you want to see in applicants, is research a nice to have or really important for applicants when applying to Chicago Medical? [5:26]
So I think what we really want to see is individuals who truly have the motivation and desire to be a good physician, and that comes in a lot of different packages. So it may come in a package where a person has had a lot of experience with research. It may be an individual who has a lot of experience working in direct patient care. It could be someone who has been a community volunteer, an advocate, an individual who has done a lot with working with children or individuals from disadvantaged backgrounds or vulnerable populations.We’re looking for candidates who truly want to do this. That they’re not looking at medicine as a nine-to-five kind of job or career. They’re looking at it in the sense of providing holistic medicine to the patient population they’re serving. Meaning that a physician has to also be resourceful in helping their patients with all the other needs that they may need, whether they need to see an optometrist or whether they need to see a social worker because they have some other challenges in their lives that may impact their ability for better care.
So it’s kind of hard to pinpoint one particular skill or characteristic that we’re looking for other than someone who is empathetic, want to be in the profession, willing to work long hours, willing to have good listening skills, and compassionate and thoughtful and someone who is willing to be a lifelong learner. So those… that’s what we’re looking for. Not much. Just a few things.
Is there any kind of clinical exposure that you prefer to see? And specifically, how do you look at shadowing or virtual shadowing? [7:18]
So when COVID hit us, we had to all pivot, and we were… unfortunately, many students were unable to actually get into organizations to do any shadowing or community service or volunteerism. Now that things are a little better, students have greater opportunities to get these experiences. We prefer that students have more of those clinical experiences that give them direct patient contact.Shadowing is nice. You kind of get to see what a physician or a health provider does. You may be able to ask them questions about their lifestyle in those professions. But we really want someone to truly understand what is it going to be like to be a physician. What is it going to be like to work with people who are sick? We know that people, when they’re sick, they’re not always at their best. They don’t always feel well to speak to you in a very calm way.
So you got to be able to understand that when people are ill or frightened or scared because they don’t know what’s going on with them, that they may not be the most pleasant people. So having had some experience, whether it is working at a hospital or clinic, a nursing home, facility for individuals who may have mental health issues, it’s just a way of really helping the student to realize, “This is truly what I want to do.” And not invest four years in medical school and four years of medical school tuition to realize the time of graduation, “This is not what I want to do.”
Does Chicago Medical screen before sending out secondaries? [9:21]
No, thank you for the question. We do not. At this point, we send every student who completes an AMCAS application and indicate that they’re interested in Chicago Medical School secondary application.So there’s no screening. What do you hope to learn from the secondary that you don’t learn from the primary? [9:43]
Well, the primary application provides a lot of information, but none of it is specific to the medical school that the applicant is applying to. And so we want to learn a little bit more about the applicant in terms of how do they see themselves fitting into our learning environment. What do they plan to do between the application period and the time that they hope to matriculate to medical school?What have they learned about themselves in the last two, three years of their educational experience? And then how have they overcome any hardships or challenges or unexpected things that may have happened in life? One of the core competencies that AAMC shares with students about what makes a good physician is adaptability and flexibility. So we want to see if you have been able to adapt and if you are flexible, and if you are one of those individuals that realize that even as much as you plan, not every day will go as you plan.
Are you concerned at all about use of ChatGPT among applicants writing either the primary or secondary applications? [10:57]
Thank you for that question as well. I’ve certainly had conversations with other colleagues about it.I only get nervous if people use the technology for the wrong reasons. I think technology is perfect when we use it for the right reasons. It’s bad when bad actors are using it and do things that are detrimental to our work and to society. I’m hoping that students will be honest with their work. That they will truly write their own personal statements to tell their story. We have to, I guess, be on the honor system that people are going to do the right thing. It is certainly a characteristic of a future physician or current physician is that they’re going to be truthful and honest and ethical.
And certainly, if you were using the ChatGPT to write your personal statement in its entirety, then you’re not being ethical because that’s someone else’s work. And so I would hope that maybe you’ll use it to maybe bounce a few ideas, but you really should write your statement that reflects your story, your journey. And again, keeping in mind that a physician holds the highest seat of ethical behavior than most other professions other than teachers as well, teachers and healthcare providers. We really count on you to be ethical and to do the right things.
Chicago Medical also uses the PREview exam from AAMC. What does that exam add to your insight into the applicant? And I believe you switched from CASPer? So the second question is, what does PREview offer that CASPer doesn’t offer? [12:44]
We did switch from CASPer to the PREview exam. We don’t require the PREview exam at this point. We’re using it currently for research purposes to see if it does add any value to our assessment of the candidate. The purpose of the PREview exam, as well as CASPer, is to kind of help medical schools to determine the characteristics that a student may bring to the class in terms of their ability to problem solve, to work collaboratively, to be a team player, and those sorts of things and to be ethical. So again, we’re always looking at tools that will help us better identify those students, those candidates who will align more with our institution.So that’s one of the reasons we switched to PREview, and we’re using it again in a research capacity at this point in time to see if it gives us any additional data that would help us better select students who align with our mission, vision, and values. We moved a little bit away from CASPer because CASPer was truly initially designed for businesses and not necessarily for education. And we don’t know if it gave us the data that we thought we needed to help make decisions on who would be better aligned with our mission. So we’re going to try PREview and we’ll see what happens.
Per the MSAR, Chicago Medical received a total of, I think, 11,382 applications. [14:28]
That was the previous year.That was the previous cycle. [14:39]
So this current cycle we received nearly 10,000 applications.That’s still a lot of applications. [14:43]
A lot of applications for 200 seats.And I assume you interviewed around 800 again. [14:48]
We interviewed a little less than 800 this past cycle. We interviewed about 750.How do you get from 10,000 to 750? [14:57]
It’s hard work, Linda.I’m sure it is.
My hair it turns grayer every day, every cycle. It is a very challenging task for any of the medical schools out there. So It’s not just difficult for Chicago Medical School. But again, we try to do a holistic approach to reviewing applicant files and trying to identify those applicants who truly align with the mission of Chicago Medical School. Our Dean, Dr. Chatterjee, always says that we are a community-based, community-engaged medical school. And that’s certainly our focus is to improve healthcare outcomes of the patient populations that we serve and the communities in which we work.And so we really try to identify those candidates out of that large number who truly have a desire to work in community-based medicine to want to improve healthcare outcomes for vulnerable populations, who have an interest in giving back to communities that may be underserved or underinsured, for communities that may be rural, small communities, even large communities. So we want to make sure that we’re looking at students who truly have that interest. Because we are a community-based medical school, we are not connected to one single academic health system. Our students are going to get a wonderful education from a variety of different healthcare settings. We partner with about 28 different hospitals and health systems.
So our students will get a vast experience of working with these different patient populations, individuals who may be coming from very affluent communities to those who may be coming from very economically deprived, depressed communities. So they get to see everything and then are in a better position to choose what is it that they want to focus their careers on later when they finish medical school.
What advice do you have for applicants, especially those who come from underrepresented backgrounds in medicine, as they write their essays, given both your commitment to serving the underserved and the recent Supreme Court decision? [17:07]
Tell your story.Tell the story of how your situation may have been impacted by your lived experiences. You have to tell people more than that, “I’m African American, or I’m Latino.” You have to tell how you were impacted by being from a community that historically has been disadvantaged. Students themselves, people themselves aren’t disadvantaged. We just put labels on people. Many times that has no bearing on who they are and what they are capable of doing. But you have to tell your story. You have to tell the story that will help the school the admissions committee to understand your true motivation for wanting to be a physician.
How you will contribute to, again, improving healthcare outcomes and providing better care to the patient population that you’ll serve. I would give them the advice as to work hard. I just met with a group of students earlier this week, and I’m really trying very hard to get students to realize that asking for help seeking help is not a weakness. That’s a strength. I think, in our educational system, we have done such a disadvantage to our learners because we made them learn as independent people and not working collaboratively. Then we send you to college, and so now we want you to work collaboratively.
We want you to work in teams and groups, and we find it difficult because someone isn’t going to carry their weight or someone is more competitive than the next. And, “I don’t want to share because you’re going to be higher than I am or you’re going to get a better grade than me,” and that’s not what medicine is all about. Medicine is about sharing and working collaboratively. And so if I had to give students advice, I would say, “Learn to work collaboratively. There’s a lot of knowledge out here that people expect you to know. You can’t always digest and learn everything that you might need to know by yourself.
And so why not join in with other individuals who may be stronger in a topic area than you are, and you help them with areas that they may not be as strong.” And so I would just say, “Be collaborative, ask questions, ask for help, talk to your professors during] office hours, participate in study groups whether they’re single study groups or large study groups, look at all the resources that may be available. But if you’re going to look at resources, you got to be able to determine the resources that are really good resources from those that are not so good. So you got to put your critical thinking skills in place that you’re not looking at information that is not evidence-based.”
One comment you made in responding to this question was that the person coming from an underrepresented background can’t just say, “I had this hardship, or I had that hardship.” That person has to also say, “How are you a different person as a result of that experience? How has it influenced your interest in medicine?”
I would add to that any experience you write about in your medical school’s personal, not just personal statement, but application, you should kind of bring in why is it included. Why is it important for the medical school to know it? So I think it’s excellent advice. I just want to kind of build on it a little bit because I think It’s absolutely critical. It’s not just a matter of checking boxes and, “I did this many hours of that and that many hours of that.” It’s like, so what? [20:13]
Absolutely. The checkbox phenomenon should end, and we should be doing things because, one, we genuinely want to do them, and that we have a passion for the work that we’re doing. And honestly, Linda, when you read an application for me and I’m sure many of my colleagues, you can feel the passion that applicants are bringing to their application just from the way that they’re describing their experiences. And it’s always amazing to read an application when you can feel the passion and compassion that that person has for the work that they’ve done.I just spoke with the candidate last week who has been working with individuals who have ability issues. And the person is nonverbal, and you could hear in her explanation and about the work that she’s doing how she’s excited about it and realized that this is a population that we leave behind that’s hidden, who aren’t given the opportunities to fully participate in life because of a life-altering situation. And that we need to be more mindful of individuals who are in our community that may be different, but doesn’t mean that they aren’t capable of learning and loving and enjoying life. And so we-
And contributing. [22:34]
Absolutely. And so we can pick those things up and how an applicant writes that personal statement or includes that in their secondary application. And clearly, if the interview day, you get an opportunity to talk to a candidate, and they start talking about their experiences, and you see the excitement that come across their face when they start describing the things that they’ve been engaged in. It’s very powerful.Speaking of the interview day, what are you planning for the interview day for the upcoming application cycle? [23:01]
Well, we are one of the schools that do MMIs. And we still are looking to assess one’s ability to communicate, to think quickly on your feet, to be able to problem solve, be able to see things from multiple vantage points and to be able to share your thoughts about whatever the scenario or question is.Is the MMI online or is it in person? [23:31]
We do virtual interviews.And so our interview day is about five hours, five or six hours. I can’t remember. We start at nine in the morning and end at two. Two hours of that is us doing MMIs for a group of 36 per day, and then for the remainder of the day, they get a chance to chat with me, and I get a chance to chat with the interviewees.
We provide information about financial aid, talk about our student services, our student well-being programs. We have someone talk about the curriculum from first year through fourth year. So we get… I tell students the interview day is twofold. We are interviewing them, but they’re also interviewing us because, again, they have to have information to be able to decide if we’re going to be a good fit for them and vice versa.
I always ask this question, and I’ll tell you after you answer it why I ask it. What is the latest that someone can expect in an interview invitation from Chicago Medical? [24:26]
Yeah. Our deadline date for a student submitting their primary application is November 1st, followed by a December 1st deadline for their supplemental. We invite applicants as late as March to interview. So we hope that students are applying early in the cycle.But for the student who may have had some challenges getting their resources together or getting enough people to write them letters of recommendation. We know that things happen that prevent people from always submitting an application at the beginning of the cycle. So if you complete an application by November 1st, there is still a possibility that you could be invited for an interview. We are on rolling admissions.
And I might’ve told you this last time, and listeners have heard me say this many times. I ask this question, and I’m asking it of every medical school admissions director I interview because there’s this meme out there that, “If you don’t have an interview invitation by Thanksgiving, you can forget it. You’re rejected.” And every admissions director says, “That’s not true.” So I keep asking, and someday, hopefully, the meme will go away.
What is the common mistake you see applicants make during the application process? And in this case, I mean the written portion of the application? [25:27]
So typically, on the secondary application, sometimes individuals will cut and paste, and they will leave information maybe about a different school that they’re applying to that’s a part of the application that… for my school.And I know it’s not intentional, but it sends a signal that you aren’t paying attention, and as a physician, details are very important. And so that’s one mistake that I see. This year, I saw an applicant not complete two of the secondary essay questions. I’m not sure why. I think we made a call to see if it was just a technical glitch or something. But you should definitely complete the entire application or not submit it.
It was very nice that you called. I mean, many schools would just have said, “Okay, forget it.”
What is a common mistake that you see in the MMIs or on the interview day? [26:48]
Being a person of many years of experience, I see students have an enormous amount of anxiety and nervousness. And we try our best to share with students that, “You know, a little anxiety, a little nervousness is okay, but you have worked so very hard to get to this point of your journey to becoming a physician. You can’t allow your nerves or anxiety to not let you perform at your best. And this is your time to chat. So it’s not a time to be an introvert.” People don’t believe this, Linda, but I tell people all the time, “I’m an introvert, but I can’t do my job if I don’t talk.”And so my friends laugh at this too, but it’s true. I would prefer to just sit in the back of the room and be quiet and observe. But, if you’re interviewing, you can’t sit in the back of the room. You can’t observe because someone is assessing, one, your ability to communicate. And if you don’t talk, they can’t assess because that’s a big part of assessing one’s communication. And then another part of that is your nonverbal communication. Are you giving good eye contact? Are you smiling or frowning, or are you distracted by something else that’s going on?
So I would say that’s probably the biggest thing I see on MMI day or interview days is students are just so anxious and so nervous that they don’t always convey their best selves. And we talk to our interviewers, particularly our first interview day was this Tuesday, and we said to all of the interviewers, “Be mindful that this may be the first interview day for many of the candidates. Many of them will be nervous, and we have to help them feel comfortable to be able to be their authentic selves.” And we certainly try to make that happen.
Well, that’s very understanding. And again, I guess if you want to have empathetic, compassionate people in your program it pays for you to also be empathic and compassionate, and that’s definitely the attitude you’re conveying. [29:01]
Absolutely.So, along those lines, it is now September. This interview will probably air in early October, and the Chicago Medical School application, as you just said, the primary is due by November 1st, and I think the secondary by December 1st. If applicants submit now between now and those deadlines or between whenever the application… the interview airs and your deadlines, do they still have a chance? Are their chances distinctly lower than if they had applied in June or July? [29:18]
I would probably say I think you have a better chance applying early in the cycle. I would certainly encourage students to apply early in the cycle. But again, we know that because of life, everyone is not always able to do that.I do think that individuals who apply later will still have a chance. Now, whether they’ll have a greater chance, I don’t know. Because, personally, I think at the beginning of the cycle, members of the admissions committee are fresh. They’re looking at applications for the first time. They’ve had the summer to kind of take a break.
And then, as the season progresses, you can… you have read a number of applications, and so now people may be a little bit more… they may be looking for a little bit more than they did at the beginning of the cycle. Because, again, we can only invite so many people. And at some point, you have to say no to a lot of candidates who are truly well-prepared and will make great physicians. But I think they have a greater chance earlier in the cycle.
I sometimes tell people who ask me about applying late in the cycle, “Well, if you don’t apply, you have zero chance of acceptance”. If you wait, you would start medical school a year later. So it depends how much you value some chance of acceptance earlier over a less chance of rejection. It’s a very personal decision basically. [30:53]
And we just don’t know.It’s kind of like the lottery. You play it in hopes of winning. And sometimes, you win, and sometimes you don’t.
I think the odds are a little bit better for acceptance to medical school than lottery. [31:32]
I would agree. I would agree with you but, you know it’s a gamble.And if you applied late and you didn’t get in, then you’re a re-applicant. Do you have any advice for re-applicants to Chicago Medical? [31:43]
Yeah, I tell students… I meet with students who may have been unsuccessful in the application year that they applied initially. Sometimes it’s just timing. Other times, it could be little things that you need to strengthen in your application. Maybe you didn’t demonstrate enough experiences with healthcare, or you didn’t have enough hours in community service or evidence working with other… with individuals who need help. It could be that your test scores may have just been on the cusp, and one more score higher would just push you over.It could be that you needed grades from your last semester to really improve your GPA. So it may be a combination of things. Again, because all the medical schools, I won’t speak for my colleagues, but we all get more applications than we have seats for. And clearly there are going to be individuals who I said… as I said before, are well-qualified to go to med school but just for whatever reason didn’t get… make the cut that year. And I had counsel and worked with many students who have been re-applicants who got in the second year.
And some may have applied a third year, and they got in. So again, it just really depends on you and your motivation for wanting to do this and your sticktuitiveness. I think if you are going to be a re-applicant, I think you really need to look at your application and make sure that you are changing your application to show the different things that you’ve done since the last time that you applied to medical school as well.
What advice would you give to med school applicants, thinking ahead in planning to apply summer 2024 or even summer 2025? [33:36]
I would say that to the applicants is to slow down, enjoy the process, make sure that when you do apply that you have all of the pieces in place that you need to make you a competitive applicant so that you’ve completed your prerequisites. You prepared to take the MCAT exam. You got the score that you think you need to have on the MCAT. You have the GPA. You have the experiences that you feel people are going to be looking for, and that you are mentally ready to go to medical school. And not to compare yourself to your peers or your classmates because everyone’s journey to medicine looks different.And I think, a lot of times, students are disappointed because they’re looking at their classmate who may have been accepted early and they haven’t gotten even the first invitation to interview. Well, that’s that person’s journey. That’s not your journey. And I’ve been trying to share with students that, “When it’s your time, it will happen if you do all of the work. You got to do the work now.” And so, for some candidates, coming directly out of college is not their journey to get them to med school. We’ve had students who’ve had maybe four years gap years before they applied to come to med school.
And recently, there’ve been individuals who have had a career, and now it’s their time, and they’ve applied, interviewed, and have been accepted. So my advice would be is work as hard as you can, do all the things that are necessary for you to be a good applicant. Truly know that this is what you want to do. And then just follow your passion and don’t assess yourself by your father, your mother, your brother, your sister. Do it because this is you, and this is your journey.
Or the people in Reddit or Student Doctor Network. [36:01]
Well, yes.Dr. Barry Rothman, who used to be head of Cal State’s San Francisco’s Post-Bac programs, I think he founded several of those programs and is currently an Accepted consultant. He frequently says, “The fastest way to medical school is slowly.” [36:06]
Absolutely.I loved your answer. What would you have liked me to ask you? [36:26]
I’ve sort of been thinking, what advice would you give me as a dean of admissions on this process?You should have sent me that ahead of time. I would’ve thought about it. What would I give… advice would I give you? I love the understanding and the compassionate approach that you’re taking to the process. At the same time, I think that the students have to understand that they’re entering a difficult, demanding, incredibly rewarding profession if it’s the one they choose. It’s not for everybody, obviously. I don’t think I would like it too much, actually. And as you have said, they have to want it.
But I think they have to understand that there are going to be some real standards that they’re going to have to meet. Compassion, empathy is wonderful, but I don’t care about that if I’m sick, I want somebody who’s going to make me better and is going to have the skills to perhaps do surgery and do it well so that I survive the surgery and come out better than I was before without too much pain, preferably. So I think that would be kind of one thing that I would say. But I wish you would’ve given me some chance to think about it. I’ll think about it. I’ll email you if I think of something. [36:43]
Well, as you were giving your response, the one word that came to me is excellence.Yes. [38:07]
Is that you really need to be excellent in everything that you do.And it includes the science. It includes the interpersonal. Absolutely. [38:13]
Yes.There’ve been some family situations where one family member is facing some major surgery next week and then some chronic stuff. And I’m thinking about the different medical people that I’ve interacted with or this family member has told me about the person she’s interacting with. It makes such an enormous difference. Yes, you want the skill. You want the scientific knowledge. You want all the technical stuff, but it is all… but the interhuman interaction, the compassion, as you said, the empathy, that also is super important when you’re sick.
We, at one point, had a young child who was very sick, and I remember the nurses, I mean, they were battle-hardened. You try and get a… you have to stick kids, poke kids. They’re tough. But they also had to deal with parents that were under enormous, enormous stress. And sometimes, they’d be yelling at them or something. But they were basically nice, decent people, just people under enormous, enormous stress.
There was one really lovely couple, and a leak sprung in their child’s room from the ceiling above. The kid was immunocompromised and ill. I mean, he did okay. He did fine. He survived. He recovered, but they got really upset. And otherwise, you meet them, they were the most lovely people. They were just stressed. [38:19]
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that’s… what I think students have to understand, as you indicated, that people’s personalities change when they’re under stress, and it’s our role or their role to kind of keep that in mind and to stay even-tempered and to say, “Treat the patient like you would want someone to treat your loved one.”And many times I’ve interviewed medical school admissions directors, and they’ve said, “When we’re interviewing a medical school applicant, we’re thinking, ‘Would we want you treating our mother, father, sister, child, spouse, whatever it is?'” So I think that, again, it’s a combination. I want somebody treating me or my relative who’s definitely got the technical skills but also is a decent human being and whom I can talk to. [40:10]
Absolutely.I agree.It was an interesting response to my question. I’ve never had that response. So thank you.
I think we’re almost out of time, and I want to thank you so much for joining me and sharing your enormous expertise and experience and wisdom because you really have shared a lot. I’ll include the URL for Chicago Medical School in the show notes. So again, thank you very much for coming.
It’s been my pleasure, Linda. And thank you very much, and I wish you a very productive academic year.This article was originally posted on blog.accepted.com
