How To Get Accepted To Johns Hopkins School of Medicine

Do you want to know how to get into Johns Hopkins School of Medicine? Are you wondering what Johns Hopkins’ program is like? How is it adapting to the post-COVID era, and AI? Continue reading and you’ll learn more from its Assistant Dean for Admissions and Student Affairs.

Today’s guest, Paul White, Assistant Dean for Admissions at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, attended Yale for undergrad, Georgetown for his law degree, but he has worked in admissions, both undergrad and medical school, since 1988. Since 2012, he has served the applicant community as the Assistant Dean for Admissions at Johns Hopkins. He was last on Admissions Straight Talk in November 2020 when the pandemic was raging. People were hunkering down and working and attending school at home. I’m thrilled that the pandemic seems to be in the past, and that today, Paul White has found time to join us again.

Paul, welcome back to Admission Straight Talk. [1:41]​

Thank you very much, Linda. Nice to see you. Can I make one correction though?

Absolutely. [1:47]​

Yes. I actually started in admissions in June of 1979 and then took a four-year break in which I worked, and then went and got my JD, so I’m in my 40th year in admissions.

I came back to admissions in 1986, but so all the way back to when I started, it was 1979.

Wow, that’s when I got my MBA. [2:08]​

Oh, okay. I’ve been doing my medical school admissions since the year 2000. Also, I’m in my 40th year of admissions, of the last 44.

Okay, great. Well, you obviously have a lot of perspective, experience, and expertise to share, and I’m glad you corrected me. [2:23]​

Yeah, no problem.

Can you give an overview, just to start, of the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [2:32]​

Sure. Absolutely. Well, Hopkins is a MD program. Let’s start there. It’s allopathic as opposed to osteopathic. Osteopathic schools will work the osteopathic type of medicine. Hopkins is one of 160 plus allopathic schools in the US that awards the MD. We have been around since, oh, I would say 1893 or so as a medical school. We were one of the first medical schools to establish the need for prerequisites and we are also the institution where the term rounding was developed. Our dome, which is an iconic image of our medical school is where rounding first took place, and Hopkins is one of the schools in 1911 or 1912, that the Flexner Report said got it right. That’s all to say we have a history, but Hopkins doesn’t believe in, nor will have you rest, on your laurels. It’s just that we recognize that we do have histories behind us, but this is a fascinating place. We have 120 medical students come in every year who are either MD or MD-PhD. Several thousand applications, so it’s a very long process for the applicant, but also for us, our mission is research, patient care, and education, and that is a part of everything we do here, and we are also a very incredibly inclusive community, and that is also a part of what we do and recognize that everyone brings something to the table. This is a wonderful environment for the student, but also to be a member of the community as a professional, however it might be teaching or a member of the greater staff.

It’s very team-oriented. We’re the type of institution where everyone has a voice, including the students, and we listen very closely to our students and we also encourage, really require that they honor the patients that they work with, so you have be very service oriented and hopefully competent to deal with this but we’re very much a team environment on all levels.

Last time you were on Admission Straight Talk, I mentioned it was the height of Covid. Covid had dramatically changed our world, including admissions. Today, I’d like to ask about AI and ChatGPT, which are definitely also changing our world, and specifically the impact of those two technologies on medical school admissions, and actually, I think, they’re very much one andthe same. ChatGPT, to my limited understanding, is a form of, or uses AI. Now, medicine is using AI, as I understand it.​

Medical practice is using AI, but are you concerned about applicants using ChatGPT? [5:01]​

Well, I am, yes, I am. Let’s just put it that way.

I am concerned because if you’re applying to medical schools, it should be based on your own ideas, your own creativity, and not something that is generated by ChatGPT.

Part number one. Number two, AI, which is all part of that, it’s certainly being used, even by some medical schools in their admissions processes. We’re not using it. In fact, there hasn’t even been any discussion about it. Partly because it’s so new.

Also, one of the reasons why I work for the institution, it’s where I’ve worked for the past 40-plus years, is because of how we spend a lot of time looking at the individual and looking at the individual application, and we don’t read people well, we don’t prescreen, so we’re really looking truly holistically. When you’re using something like AI, for instance, maybe using an algorithm to determine who should be getting a secondary or who should be getting an interview, or who should be getting admitted, that’s for the committee, and that means a full discussion, and if it’s only done by like the use of an algorithm, I’m not sure if that’s really fair.

I really think it should be the student’s own ideas and, frankly, I’m not well-versed enough, but I just don’t think it’s as honest frankly if you were doing results on something like that.

One of our consultants played with it a little bit, and she’s a trained journalist. She basically tried to get it to produce an MBA essay and the amount of work that it took her to get it to produce anything of quality was almost as much as it would have taken her to draft the thing herself.​

You have two risks to AI from my perspective. One is that they write an essay that’s much better than the applicant could write on their own.​

The other is that it does a much worse job than the applicant would do on his own. So it’s a double-edged sword. [7:21]​

Right. Well, and I also think, Linda, that some people have more privilege than others and more access to the kinds of tools and devices that would allow them to do that to give themselves, perhaps, an unfair advantage to the process.

The whole reason I got into admissions 44 years ago is I wanted to level the playing field.

Do you feel you’ve done it? [8:26]​

I think so. I’ve certainly made the effort at the institutions where I’ve worked. I mean, very briefly, I gave a talk at a summer program where I worked a week ago. The faculty member who invited me to speak to the students came to talk to me afterwards, and she said, “You know, I was just talking about how we need each other.” because I’m on the education policy and curriculum where she was serving, and she said, “At this point, even though I’m not on that committee, the reason why I started this program is because of you.” I said, “Really?” She said, “Because you type up and need to attract a diverse population in all ways, not just ethnicity and race, make an effort to attract people who may not be necessarily in your pathway, your pipeline initially. As she said that, and said it beautifully, I’ll be perfectly honest, I was stunned that she said that I had inspired her and others to do that.

Well, that must be very gratifying. [9:37]​

It is gratifying. It was surprising to be perfectly honest, but that’s one of the remarkable things that I like about this institution. If you are committed and you know your field, and you achieve any type of success, other people here will recognize that. It isn’t just that I see someone who’s done an amazing surgery or analysis of a disease, but it’s recognizing people who know their profession, including admissions.

Let’s turn to the Johns Hopkins application process, and specifically the secondary application. Now, you have a very thorough secondary asking for five essays. I think 2500 characters maximum each for the essays, except for one’s a little bit shorter. What do you glean from the secondary that the primary doesn’t provide? [10:07]​

Oh, that’s a great question, and I think every school, just about every school has a secondary.

They almost all do. [10:30]​

The secondary, for my money, should tell you what our values are by the questions we ask. Those questions should give you an indication of what we consider important as an institution here.

They also fit, Linda, with the AAMC’s interpersonal and intrapersonal competencies. Again, we’re looking at more than just MCAT and GPA. We’re looking at what you will bring to the table. We want to get a sense of your sensitivity to people who don’t look like you. We want to know if you’ve ever had to demonstrate resiliency, or if you’ve ever overcome something.

Those are parts of our questions and that’s really important to us. Then if everything works out, we invite you for an interview. Yeah, and I tell people this interview isn’t going to make or break you. The fact is, you have an interview. It’s just that we can’t take everyone and the interview is one other tool in our toolbox that we use, but it’s not the only factor that we consider.

I think I remember looking at the stats. By the time you get to the interview stage, it’s about a 50% acceptance rate. Is that correct? [11:52]​

Well, it’s close. That is close.

Yeah, it was really close to 50%. [11:58]​

I wish we accepted 264. That includes the MD-PhD and the MD- and the entrants that come off the waitlist. Our class is 120, with accepted 264. It’s so far about 45%.

Yeah, so if you get to the interview. Now, we invited to interview just about 592 total and we admitted 266, so it’s more of a third to 40%, if you ask me.

I was looking at the stats for last year. [12:32]​

You probably were, and that’s a higher number admitted off the waitlist, you know?

You’d like 100% yield, I’m sure. [12:43]​

No, not really. If we did that, we’d be admitting a lot fewer. That’s why I say that.

That’s true. [12:50]​

Not that there’s… I wouldn’t want everyone, but if there’s a way. I tell the committee all the time, “Well, the class is 120. We’re not admitting 120.”

Maybe it’s more because these are applicants, especially for institutions like Hopkins, who quite rightly get into multiple institutions.

So the competition to get into your school is tough, and the competition to attract the applicants that you want to accept is also tough. [13:11]​

Another way of looking at this though, Linda, is our applicant acceptance rate is 6% in the secondary, so when you say, well, your chances are real high, that’s true, but we only invite to interview 15%.

That’s where the real cut is, right? [13:30]​

So you’ve got to get to the interview and then only 6% of all applicants from the secondary, I’m not even counting the AMCAS. That is roughly 6%.

You have the primary, you have the secondary, and you have to go from 4500 applications, let’s say last cycle- [13:48]​

Down to-

… down to 500 interview invitations.That means you’ve got to knock out about 4000 applications.​

That’s right.

What makes an applicant jump off the page of the application? What makes them come alive for you? What makes them attractive? [14:06]​

Yeah, well, that’s a great question because what I will tell you, and partly, and I hope the group that I network today is, you know we have committees and one of those committees is called the screening committee, right?

Now, I work very closely with that committee, and I’m a member of that committee as well as the larger committee, but there are only eight of us who screen all those applications, and I read close to 50% of those.

40% as a primary reader, and then the rest I will second read every one, or third read if necessary, but everyone gets at least two reviews, and sometimes three. Oftentimes, I’m the third review. I also do the first read. We always start the year, well, we’ll see in a couple of weeks, with an overview of the class that we just admitted so they have an idea what stood out, who could possibly do better in some areas, but there are no quotas. What are your targets out of a class of 120? I mean, yeah, I want a class of 120. That’s my target, right?

What bucket do I belong in? What bucket do I fit in? [15:24]​

Exactly, exactly. Everyone comes at it from a different perspective. We have researchers who are screeners for us. We have acquisitions, clinicians, obviously, admin/admissions professionals, and then we have the full discussion with the entire committee, including medical students. We have 20 medical students on our committee. I tell the committee, “Look, let’s start with we are a medical school. We want people who understand, or have an inkling of an understanding of patient care. If they don’t have that, that’s going to be a problem.” We look for clinical exposure.

And for us, that’s a thoroughly significant part of the evaluation process. We certainly look at academic excellence, but the committee doesn’t need, once they get to the interview, they’re not even asked to evaluate that. Isn’t that interesting?

They figure, well, we don’t even have to look at their MCATS of GPA. It has this recommended screener for some who have significant clinical experience and/or significant leadership and/or significant community service, and/or significant research, and some have all those things. That’s the beauty of our applicant pool. That’s what they bring to us, so it allows us to be somewhat selective as a result.

Occasionally, they’ll say, “But this is a wonderful person.”, and I tell them, “There are a lot of wonderful applicants out there. We can’t interview them all.” It’s sad. We look for the outliers frankly.

The outliers in terms of those three qualifications; clinical exposure, community service, and research? [17:04]​

Well, there are more things, but that’s part of why… because if they do those things, they’re the outliers. That’s what I’m saying. Right. They have to be within that. Yeah, and be in the top in all those categories, so in much of those categories.

Then, I assume that there are other nice-to-haves in the application. What are some of the nice-to-haves? [17:24]​

Well, incredible letters of recommendation. Although, again, it’s rare to find someone who gets a negative, but, believe it or not, we do see it occasionally, and we’re always surprised and appreciative, you know… if they are being truly honest with it, and sometimes they’re not, then we’re thinking, “That’s interesting.” We see some glitches here and there. That person will not likely get through the interview stage, but if they do go through the interview stage, and you, as the interviewer, hasn’t brought the glitch up, that’s my job to bring it up. “Well, tell me about this.”, because it’s okay to have a glitch. It really is. We’re not looking for perfect, but we jump the small applicants overall.

Makes sense. [18:24]​

What else do we look for? We have people who write well. Teamwork is very important to us and we find it in multiple areas of the application, and then in our questions as well.

Are you planning to make any changes to your secondaries this year? [18:35]​

No.

What are interviews like at Johns Hopkins, and stand up for domestic applicants, they are all in-person, is that correct? [18:39]​

No.

No? All right. [18:47]​

I figure, for the past four years now. Going on four years, yeah, it’s been virtual interviews only.

We will continue with that. The interviews will be a little different. It’s going to be 100 so I’ll interview them virtually. We’re going to continue with that. Everyone hase two interviews. We still do the two interviews and one is with a medical student, and one is with voting members of the admissions committee and I’ve given full access to the candidate’s application. We give them free-range in terms of the questions, but we have a couple that we ask that they all ask the interviewee.

Are there opportunities for the applicant to learn about Johns Hopkins, and are there interview days? [19:26]​

We hope so. Yeah, we hope. One of the things we’ve done since the pandemic – I used to meet with all the applicants. There were two of us who would meet with all of them on a Thursday or Friday. It might be a Thursday, it could be Friday, or whatever, at the orientation session. Now, since the pandemic, we sent out a video of yours truly giving an overview of Hopkins. We also include in the invitation to interview, the information about the various groups that they connect with either before the interview or anytime after the interview, and we’ll have a program for interviewees invited to interview with students virtually now, but before it was in person.

The night before your interview, or the night after is a possibility, too, but certainly the night before – and go informed into the interview. That has been going on for a long time. It seems they enjoy that, particularly since it’s only with first-year students that part. We have various groups, affinity groups here, and we provide you with their contact information and we schedule meetings with those students twice a month, I believe, for anyone who has interviewed who wants to talk to one of the affinity groups.

We try to give them lots of opportunity to engage and learn about Hopkins other than from the old folks like me.

I saw online that interviews end in late February. I mean, you’ve always been very good about putting out the timeline.​

When is typically the last day that interview invitations are sent out? I’ll tell you why I ask this question. Everybody asks this. [21:09]​

Well, you know, when it was in person, probably the last date would be the last, let’s see, the first week in February. With virtual, we can literally sometimes invite people three or four days before the interview. I would say at least a week before is ideal.

Mid-late February would be the latest? [21:42]​

No, mid-February to late February but certainly not the day before. We want to give a heads up. When it was in person, because of travel, we always did minimally two weeks in advance.

The reason I ask this question is because there’s this meme out there that if you don’t have an interview invitation by Thanksgiving, you’re toast. Every single admissions director I’ve asked says, “No, we interview into January, February, and some into late March.” I don’t think anybody goes into April. [21:55]​

Right, yeah.

I always ask this question and that’s why because I just think it’s wrong. [22:12]​

Do you know where that’s coming from? Linda, do you know where that’s coming from? There are some schools – As medical schools, I think we’re partly to blame, but I also think that there’s a myth out there that it’s best to get your application in as quickly as possible. I know of one really fine medical school that will even tell applicants, “Get it in as soon as possible.”, and they’ve done a statistical analysis to show that the acceptance is higher for people who apply earlier to that medical school. Now, what I would want to know is what’s the profile of those students then, you see because in our experience, first of all, we wait for the verified AMCAS application which we won’t get until tomorrow, June 30th.

That’s the first day, and we will not look at it, trust me, and we don’t prescreen, but sometime after July 4th we will start delivering access, acknowledging and then providing access to our secondary applications. You can take however much time you want to get it in, as long as it’s in my office by November 1st.

Really? [23:22]​

Yes.

It doesn’t matter to you? [ 23:23]​

Yes. It doesn’t matter to me.

I do not read anything into it. If someone waits until September, I figure there’s a reason for it, and should some people wait, absolutely. Absolutely, and I’m talking about someone who is having an incredible summer experience, like the students I just spoke with. They’re not going to be able to write. We don’t take updates.

We’re serious about that. I don’t want an update.

I want to know what you’re doing and what you’ve done. Okay. If you get invited to interview for Hopkins, I’m just talking about Hopkins – then you can provide an update after the interview.

Okay, but before that, so if you, for any reason, you’re having an incredible summer experience, which I hope, like summer internship program is for these students, and you want to write about it knowledgeably, it can wait.

There’s no disadvantage. We notify students, if you’ve been to my website, there will be a key that we say we notify students mid-December, end of January, and end of March. I once heard or read on one of those student/doctor.net, or one of the two, I think they’ve been combined now, someone said, “If you’re interviewing in January or February, you’re interviewing for the wait list.” That was news to me.

Why bother, right? Why would we bother to grant you an interview?

Why would you invest in the interview? [24:50]​

Why would a student invest in it as well?

Instead, some of our most interesting students, we don’t get to their applications until, in terms of the review, until December or into January, and we say this is great. Wow!

Let’s bring this person in. We don’t want anyone to lose interest in us, and don’t take that as an indication of unlikely to be admitted. Some of our best applicants are taken in the last month.

Fascinating. [25:15]​

Absolutely wonderful people.

The reason I’ve usually heard from admissions people for getting an application in promptly, not before it’s ready, nobody says get it in sloppy. Nobody says that. [25:23]​

Yeah, get it in when it’s ready. Right. That’s right.

Do you hold interview slots for late in the cycle? [25:39]​

We do. We hold interview slots, in fact, we probably interview more people later in the process than earlier in the process. Now that’s partly a reflection of when we start our interviews. We start at the end of August and we only bring in a few people to sort of get our toes wet, right, because you can keep in mind.

While some of the committee members are veterans, all of the medical students are brand new, right? And we always have new committee members, and so we don’t want to overwhelm them, so we always start small and then we start working toward a larger number by, let’s say, October, and then it’s even larger by January. I mean, if you were to look at, I have a document right here, which I can’t share, but I’m looking at the people who were discussed at the meetings. In the last two months, we had a huge number compared to the first four months.

That’s good to know. [26:41]​

The first two months. Yeah.

That’s just a different process. [26:42]​

Every school’s different. I’m glad it’s not lockstep. I’ve worked at one other medical school and they absolutely come there after I’ve been at Hopkins for a number of years, and I feel like I was on a different planet in terms of what we were looking for, and I was able to learn a lot and bring it back to Hopkins when I returned 12 years ago. That’s okay. It was great. I think they learned something.

I know I definitely changed their process. One of the things I found was they were pre-screening the AMCAS applications to determine who would get the secondary, and yet 98% of the people were given a secondary. I said, “Why are you wasting your energy?”

Why screen? [27:31]​

I said, “No one needs to bother to do that.”, and there were some other things I did to accept that challenge. Then, I also found they were still interviewing the first week of May. I almost had a heart attack. The first week of May. In other words, the following May.

That’s ridiculous. [27:46]​

Back then, you may recall because, you know, traffic rules were different before or CYMS. I said to the committee, this was not at Hopkins, I said, “Do you know about the May 15th deadline?” “Yeah, we have to let them know by May 15th.” I said, “No, they have to let us know, which means they have to have been interviewed and admitted.”, right?

Right, by May 15th. [28:01]​

By May 15th, and you know, we shouldn’t even be interviewing, so that was the last year that they interviewed – and we even added a day because of some storm, or something. One day in April, but after that, it got moved to March, and now they’re, I think, doing the last of the interviews by the end of February. The traffic rules have changed.

I think part of the reason behind this November myth, you certainly gave a good one, another one is that I think it is wise for applicants who don’t have, let’s say, several interviews by Thanksgiving to start thinking about reapplication and preparing for it.​

In other words, if you get the primary in and you get the secondary in, and then you’re tired. You take a break. All right. The break is a good idea, but if you’re just hanging out, and you’re going to hang out until May 15th when you know the results, and if the results are not what you wanted, and then you start thinking of reapplication, you’ve almost certainly lost, or put yourself back a year. Let’s put it that way.​

I think that’s different from “you’re toast.”​

It just means start thinking, start planning, start thinking that it might not work out the way you want. [28:35]​

Can I make a comment about that. There are people who need to do that thinking and analysis, self-analysis before they even apply.

Absolutely. [29:40]​

I find that most people know what the holes were in their application. Don’t think that if you throw the football that someone will catch it. No!. Don’t even bother throwing it.

Just figure out what do I need to do to be at my strongest, not just apply when you’re ready, but am I at my strongest in terms of my profile? If you know you have holes in your profile, wait and address those holes.

Dr. Barry Rothman, Accepted consultant, he’s the former head of the Post-Bac Program at Cal State San Francisco. He was the founder of the program; he’s the former head of the program. In any case, he frequently says, “The fastest way to medical school is slowly.” [30:06]​

Yeah. I couldn’t agree more.

What is the evaluation process? Somebody submits a primary, and they check Johns Hopkins, and you send them a secondary, and they fill it out, they do the best they can, and they send it in. What happens? [30:40]​

What happens is once it’s complete and I know it’s, I worked with it from and the administrative staff, they will say this is a complete application, and they’re going to put them in the electronic file, and they’re just divvied up by a certain number to each, a member of the screening committee, and I really get about a week to review however many files they have in their bin, so to speak, right? Again, we’ve already had a discussion, in fact, sometimes I’ll let them read a few applications and then have a meeting to talk about what are you seeing, or okay, are you seeing any changes? Some schools, for instance, are dropping their committee letter. The University of Chicago just sent something out saying they’re dropping their committee letter. A couple of years ago. Yale dropped their committee letter. I was devastated by that one. That’s my alma mater.

I was just shocked. I really was. Things like that. Those kinds of things, I want to make sure they’re aware of that, and not thinking, like sometimes we’ll say, “Well, this person has not seen a letter from Linda, who’s the director of the admissions committee,,” and we always get a committee letter. Yes, but Linda’s no longer sending those.

They have to get either a single packet or, as we say, individual letters from faculty who taught them in a course, two in the sciences and one non-science.

The committee reads the application in the order in which it is sent by AMCAS, and it follows up with our secondary application. What’s the first thing we see? Biographical information.

What’s the second thing? Your parents information and demographic information; the distance you’ve traveled. The idea, they’re taking out the disadvantaged statement from the application. There will be something in there. Yeah, I forget what they call it.

Impactful experiences. [32:44]​

I haven’t had a chance to really review any applications yet, so it hasn’t sunk into my mind yet, the language. We look at that, and then we look at the academic information, and I want to make note of whether or not they’re a re-applicant, and I look at their letters of recommendation to the letter, if there’s a letter. I’ll look at their activities, but, of course, you know that they’ll list up to 15 activities.

It’s the most painful. I don’t want to look at all of those individually. A personal statement, I left that off. We generally look at a personal statement.

Would you look at the personal statement around the same time as you look at the activities or before, after? [33:27]​

Yes. Yeah, or actually before we even look at their activities. Before that, and usually even before we get to their academics.

Academics seem to be low on the list. [33:39]​

Yeah, it does seem, doesn’t it.

It does. Those stats that everybody talks about. [33:46]​

Right. I know, but I’m telling you, that’s our process. We really want to know what kind of person is this, and why medicine? What has he or she done to make that brought them to this point? What experiences have they had? Then we look at our questions on our secondary after we finish all that, that really dig a little deeper. The interest in medicine and how they demonstrated that, and also dealing with people, right?

We have a question on our application, it’s purely optional, well, we have two. One is, no, it’s not optional, more of an unusual question that a bioethicist created and we just got a preliminary report on that, and it turns out it shows a very creative mind.

Is that one about wonder? [34:37]​

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Exactly. A very interesting question.

Do you mind if I just read it off?​

“Wonder encapsulates a feeling of rapt intention. It draws the observer in. Tell us about a time in recent years that you experienced wonder in your every-day life. Although experiences related to your clinical research work may be the first to come to mind, we encourage you to think of an experience that is unrelated to medicine or science. What did you learn from that experience?” ​

It’s a great question. [34:44]​

Well, as you know the woman who created it, and she is a member of the admissions committee, and is an incredible thinker, I think, outside of the box, and I love having people with different perspectives.

As I said, we’ve already gone through many preliminary analysis, and we’re going to continue to research and it is IRB approved.

We do have a question, which you may see as well which kind of gets into that what’s being asked now bythe AMCAS application, excep we’ve been asking this question for three or four years, four or five years; tell us anything that is not already discussed. I want to know the distance they’ve traveled. Everyone has had a different lot in life. I have a different perspective and different experience they can discuss. This gives everyone an opportunity to share that.

That is optional for us, though. It is truly optional. And I’ve even told the committee do not hold it against people who didn’t answer it because it’s optional.

You know, you do get quite a bit of information between the primary and the required secondary essays. [36:15]​

Mm-hmm, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

I’ve learned some things with the optional questions that I hope people are comfortable in sharing with us, and if it brings us to a better understanding of who they are, things that they might not have shared with their school. I’m kind of laughing because I was on a panel with a group of deans about three months ago and there was a woman from one of the schools who said, “This generation tends to overshare.”, and I have to agree with that, but when we invite you to share, it’s because there’s a purpose.

They can still use some judgment in sharing. [37:10]​

Oh, I hope they will. I hope they will. Linda, I could tell you some horror stories, not from the applications here, but when I did undergrad admissions there were times when I blushed, okay, after reading some of it.

Oh, gosh. [37:20]​

Okay, you didn’t show this to someone else?

I’ve occasionally had, just in hiring, I’ve had people do some sharing like that. Where’s the judgment? [37:28]​

Well, exactly. Exactly.

Now, you mentioned that you do not accept updates, right? [37:37]​

Not until after someone had interviewed only because of the way our process works, once you start reading and keep reading, we don’t go back. If you sent something to me a month after you’ve been evaluated, it is not going to be reviewed.

If somebody has been interviewed and wants to update you, or somebody is on the wait list? [37:56]​

I’ll tell them how to do that.

Even before they’ve even been given a decision, I will tell them they can always send us an update anytime after the interview. That can also be additional letters of recommendation. Yeah, it doesn’t have to just be an update. If it helps you –

If there is something that may have occurred between the time they applied and the time they interview, and we don’t accept an update and they want us to know about it, then that’s valid after the interview because they’ve gotten that far, and we think, “Oh, this is pretty nice.” What are typical things? Well, they had a manuscript that was accepted for publication. Okay?

That’s fair, you know – but we won’t accept that before you interview. We can’t.

We will after the interview. Or if they’ve had an experience with someone who’s only got to know them over the summer and they’ve continued working with that person, and we are interviewing them in December or January, and they’d like that individual’s input, that’s a perfect update after the interview.

What about maybe they’re taking a gap year, and they’ve started a full-time job maybe as a scribe or a medical assistant or something like that? [38:44]​

Only after they’ve interviewed.

No, I understand that. [39:18]​

Yeah, not before that.

Something describing what were their responsibilities and what they learned from the – [39:20]​

Right, what they learned from that. That’s exactly right. That’s different from a letter of interest. Okay. Now, I don’t if you were going to ask me about that, but-

I was thinking about it. [39:35]​

I often get asked. I often asked do you want a letter of interest? No. Your application is the letter of interest.

No, I hear that. This is, of course, a time when it’s now end of June, so most people know they’re either going to medical school and starting, from the last cycle now I’m talking – [39:48]​

And are either CTE or PTE.

Right, exactly. What if you want to be a re-applicant? What is your advice for re-applicants? [40:02]​

That’s a great question, and there’s something going on on the listserve now for the GSA about what do you do for the re-applicant. I’m not going to weigh in because I disagree with half of what I’m reading, but I may be in the minority. It really touches on something I said earlier and, by the way, I’m not trying to be smart. Linda, I think you know by now that I really am committed to what I do and for the institution, but also for the applicant. I want there to be a great fit for both, and I think I want re-applicants to succeed wherever he or she goes for medical school. If you’re not ready, and you don’t get in, think about what those issues could possibly have been. In fact, my other institution, I put in my old letter, these are the types of reasons why people don’t get in. If you see yourself in any way lacking, then address those. Take a year, take two years, depending on what the issue is. I can’t provide individual feedback at Hopkins. I just can’t.

I was required to do it at the other institution, and one applicant, her advisor knew that she was meeting with me and said “Paul, be honest.”

“I’m going to be honest, okay?”

She said, “But also make her come to you. Don’t let her do it over the phone or send email questions to you.” I asked this woman, who had a 3.99 at a wonderful, small liberal college in the upper midwest, and who I can get in any day, I said, “What do you think your problem was?”

She goes, “Well, I had trouble with my first question in the interview.”

“Okay, do you know what that was? Do you know what that question was?”

“Why do you want to be a doctor?” I looked at her, “You had trouble with that?”, and the floodgates opened.

Okay. I grabbed a box of tissues. I always keep a box. All right. I don’t know if you can see it. I always keep a box.

I see it. Yeah, I see it. [42:14]​

Okay. I grabbed the box of tissue and handed it to her and kept talking. I said, “Yes, I saw that when I would read your application that you have a shyness that borders on pathological. And then when I look at your activities, none of them really bring you into close communication with people.” And it fits. I gave her some advice. There’s an organization that I think does a great job of preparing people. Toastmasters International.

It’s excellent. I had an introverted roommate one year when I was in law school, and she did that and she’s now traveling the world for the US State Department.

Wow. Wow. [43:07]​

I told this applicant, and some other things, “And I don’t want you to apply for a year. Take the year off. Get some this and that” She applied the following year. She just interviewed again. They looked at my notes. I always write notes.

She did everything Paul asked her to do, and she’s wonderful, and she’s in.

That’s great. Great story. [43:32]​

It’s a great story, but I think it, to me, it’s a simple thing. Do some reflection before you reapply, or even ask us. I mean, I had a guy who came to see me, he was outraged that he didn’t get in.

God’s gift to medicine? [43:46]​

Well, he said, “My father’s a doctor and he said I should have gotten in with those grades and MCAT scores.” “Your father wasn’t the applicant.”

And your father wasn’t reading the application. [43:54]​

Your father was not reading the application, and so I tell him, and he goes, “Well, that’s okay.” I said, “Excuse me?” “Well, I got into another medical school.” I said, “Then why are we having this discussion?”

You know what that told me: We made the right decision.

Yeah, I’m sure you didn’t have any regrets there. [44:19]​

No, none.

We sometimes talk to re-applicants. Sometimes they just want us to tell them what they want to hear, which is frequently something on the lines of, “I know my MCAT was low. I retook the MCAT. My essays were great. I don’t have to do anything else.” I always tell them, “If you just resubmit”, and tell me if I’m wrong, “If you just resubmit your essays from your last application cycle, you are not able to show any growth. [44:24]​

Thank you. Exactly. That’s one of the things I saw. Someone said, well, they can send in the same application. No, there should be some changes. I couldn’t agree more. We need to see a growth, which is why I say it can sometimes require more than a few months, but a year.

Some schools have a formal policy about reapplication.

I know those schools pretty well, if you don’t get in and you reapply the second time, and you don’t get in, they make you wait a year before you reapply the third and final time.

I know many schools will, basically, if you applied three times, then you really are toast if you’re not admitted. [45:31]​

Right. Well, but do you want to hear something, Linda?

We had someone early like maybe in 2000 who’d already applied 11 or 12 times. We also suspected this person wrote her own letters of recommendation. So there were other reasons why she didn’t get in.

Yeah, that will do it for sure. [45:56]​

Yeah, but she’s an incredibly bright person, but there were clues, issues there.

What advice would you give to medical school applicants, and this time first-time medical school applicants, let’s say planning ahead to apply in 2024, in other words, next year’s cycle, or two years hence? [46:05]​

Well, next year’s cycle for me has already begun by tomorrow.

No, no, I mean starting in – [46:21]​

Oh, starting June 20’24.

I think people would save themselves a lot of grief if they applied to – applied to look at a broad range of schools and try to match their profile to a broad range of schools and not go just with name recognition. That’s the worst reason to apply to us is because you recognize the name. I want them to apply to Hopkins because they see themself there in the community when they look at our profile, and they read about what we value in terms of patient care, in terms of serving the community. Save yourself a lot of work. Really read our websites. They’re there for a reason. You look at where you want to be. If you’re applying very vertically, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment. It has to be a horizontal process, and there has to be some variety along that horizontal line.

That’s a matching process. [47:22]​

Certainly start here, but it’s a matching process. People don’t do that, though. They think, “Oh, I know this school.” There’s some wonderful places out there. You’re going to graduate with an MD degree. It’s about getting in, making your mark, and then getting into a residency program in terms of your residency. It’s really important.

You want to know what people ask, “Where did you train?” They’re not talking about where did you get an MD degree. They also want to know where’s your graduate training, which is what the residency is.

What would you have liked me to ask you? [47:56]​

What would I have I like you to ask me? Ask me about Baltimore. Ask about what our student do.

What’s it like going to medical school in Baltimore? [48:08]​

Well, I’m glad you asked that question. First of all, I think Baltimore has a number of issues, and the good thing is we’re always trying to fix those issues. This is a place that will challenge you in terms of being able to work with a really diverse patient population and making a difference for those folks. That’s why our volunteer organizations here are huge. It’s enormous. Absolutely enormous, and it’s bringing our medical students and our graduate students, our public health students, and our nursing students into the communities to make the healthcare better, and that’s what I love about being in this environment frankly. I love the fact that our students are a part of the community and not apart from the community, and our faculty and staff as well. Now, for my undergraduate alma mater, I did a lot of volunteer work in the community and would look for people to join me and half my group were from Hopkins Medical School because they wanted to get involved. It just tells me the students who come here really are committed to serving others and this is a great place for them to do that.

Wonderful. Thank you so much. Paul, I think we’re almost out of time. I want to thank you again for joining me and sharing your expertise and your 40 years of experience. There’s a lot of wisdom here. I know you’re extremely busy. This has been just delightful. Where can listeners learn more about Johns Hopkins School of Medicine. [49:30]​

If they’ll go to our website, the basic website, URL is hopkinsmedicine.org.

This article was originally posted on blog.accepted.com.

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