How to get into a top surgical residency.

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maxheadroom said:
Fact is, past performance predicts future performance.

Premeds study their asses off to crush the MCAT and get into the best possible med schools.

Med students study their asses off to crush Step 1 and get into the best possible residencies.

While I don't know of any studies that have looked at the correlation between MCAT scores and Step 1 scores, I find it hard to believe that low-performers on the MCAT are consistently high-performers on Step 1. But I could be wrong.
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I dont think anyone believes that, do you?

But, if you are responding to my previous post, look a bit closer. The point I am making is that the MCAT is one predictor. There are, of course, studies that have tried to look at how valid it is at predicting step one scores...but those are entirely beside the point.

The point is about understanding what statistics (predictors) actually mean. If you believe that because you have a high MCAT that you will get a high Step 1, then you don't understand the idea of statistics. The only thing they state is that, given a large enough group, one score can predict another score, as a group. Any one individual is not statistically more or less likely to perform higher based on that statistic.

Hense the point, while its true that, on average, students with high MCAT have high Step 1, you cant take that stat and apply it to yourself or any one student.
 
MedPR said:
If you're not willing to sacrifice one more year to have a better chance at a career you're so sure about.. well, then idk what to tell you.
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I'm not. I have sacrificed enough already.
 
HalfListic said:
Thats exactly, however, what its implied by the statement. Its a very dangerous attitude to have.
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I do not feel as though I am owed anything by anyone. I am finished with this thread. I've gotten all I can from it. Thank you all for your advice.
 
I know this is n=1 but there was an Orthopedic Surgery resident at Mayo who was a DO from my school (KCOM). I believe he just finished (he was chief resident last year). He came and spoke to us about what he did. He had research, top board scores (250+), etc. He also rotated at Mayo. Believe it or not there are some top schools that seem to be somewhat DO friendly. I've seen and heard of DO's in many specialties at Mayo, even Derm. Cleveland Clinic is another one that is particularly DO friendly. Just goes to show you that it is possible to do anything as a DO. It will be interesting to see how things change after 2015.
 
This is true. There will always be that n=1. The FIRST DO Neurosurgeon in the state of New York was a student from LECOM-ERIE. He came and spoke to us in 2004. There will always be that exceptional individual and good for them to beat ths odds.
 
Sorry to hijack, but....

I'm a pre-med who is open to a lot of different specialties. Since I'm not gunning for a top residency program, (just wondering) roughly what are the chances of matching into any gen surg residency assuming decent board scores?
 
O Grady said:
Sorry to hijack, but....

I'm a pre-med who is open to a lot of different specialties. Since I'm not gunning for a top residency program, (just wondering) roughly what are the chances of matching into any gen surg residency assuming decent board scores?
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Word on the street is general surgery isn't too bad for DO to match into if you're not picky about placement. You need just a bit above average board scores, good rotations, and letter recommendations and you should be set. The specialties, like urology ophthalmology ENT, are whole Nother set of issues.
 
O Grady said:
Sorry to hijack, but....

I'm a pre-med who is open to a lot of different specialties. Since I'm not gunning for a top residency program, (just wondering) roughly what are the chances of matching into any gen surg residency assuming decent board scores?
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My classmates with around a 530 comlex score, which is the 57th percentile, have gotten 8 - 10 AOA general surgery invites and 1 to 3 Acgme invites. Matching AOA general surgery isn't too bad.

http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2011.pdf has a list of average comlex scores for AOA residencies.

https://www.nbome-pe.org/cbtscoreconv/ to convert comlex scores into a percentile.
 
Bibliophilic said:
I do not feel as though I am owed anything by anyone. I am finished with this thread. I've gotten all I can from it. Thank you all for your advice.
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While I'm a lowly pre-med, I do believe the key to gunning for top programs is (aside from great scores, LORs, research, etc) is rotations and getting cozy with the faculty. Most people can be discouraging and its good to have a sense of realism when applying to programs, but don't just give up because internet people say its hard.

I think you know what to do and it definitely won't be easy, but at least try and be aware of back ups (such as having FM as a solid 2nd option without having to scramble).

Good luck OP and while stats may be against you, there's always that slim chance you can be that n=1.
 
maxheadroom said:
if you can't get your mcat up into md-school range, your chances of crushing step 1 into the range that you need to distinguish yourself for upper-echelon surgical programs is questionable.
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+111111111111
 
I do understand why people have these desires as DOs. There is a very Jackie Robinson quality to the idea of a DO surgeon from Harvard or Hopkins (with all do respect to Mr. Robinson and the tremendous stereotypes and racism he overcame). I have respect for these dreamers, even if that's all it may be in the immediate future: a dream.

It's the people like the poster who will erode the barriers that all DOs face now. If, 20 years from now, DO graduates apply equally with MD graduates-that is based on merit- then it will be because of the DOs with the 250+ USMLEs, research, and guts to back it up. The reality is that top programs should be looking for the top students, regardless of where they went to medical school. ACGME programs that don't admit DOs because of bias are deluding themselves if they think it's purely because a truly outstanding DO applicant will never knock at their doors. While determining a program's top choices is subjective, the true top choice is not. One of the 100+ people you meet really was the best, even if our metrics are still not sophisticated enough to tell us who that is. I'm even willing to agree that 98% of the time it's an MD graduate (there are a lot more MDs, many from excellent institutions with storied histories), but eventually a great DO will come along. Top programs that admit DOs have shown that they are operating in a truly meritocratic environment.

For the poster: So what if you're turned down by a top residency because you're a DO? If you're really the best, that one in ten thousand future surgeon, who cares? It's that program's loss, not yours. Now if you went to a truly bad program, sure, your future might be in question. I would imagine that medicine is probably like a great many other knowledge and skilled based professions, i.e. going to a good program is all a truly gifted person needs to be great. Find a program with an academic attending from Harvard/Hopkins/Big Name Program, pick his/her brain, and consider yourself educated.

I'm sure many people will disagree, but medicine is truly in the midst of a change. Technology, the introduction of mid-levels, and patient expectations all stand to be disruptive developments. Programs who want to make a mark on the future of medicine should be looking for brilliant people, no matter where they come from.
 
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OCDEMS said:
I do understand why people have these desires as DOs. There is a very Jackie Robinson quality to the idea of a DO surgeon from Harvard or Hopkins (with all do respect to Mr. Robinson and the tremendous stereotypes and racism he overcame). I have respect for these dreamers, even if that's all it may be in the immediate future: a dream.

It's the people like the poster who will erode the barriers that all DOs face now. If, 20 years from now, DO graduates apply equally with MD graduates-that is based on merit- then it will be because of the DOs with the 250+ USMLEs, research, and guts to back it up. The reality is that top programs should be looking for the top students, regardless of where they went to medical school. ACGME programs that don't admit DOs because of bias are deluding themselves if they think it's purely because a truly outstanding DO applicant will never knock at their doors. While determining a program's top choices is subjective, the true top choice is not. One of the 100+ people you meet really was the best, even if our metrics are still not sophisticated enough to tell us who that is. I'm even willing to agree that 98% of the time it's an MD graduate (there are a lot more MDs, many from excellent institutions with storied histories), but eventually a great DO will come along. Top programs that admit DOs have shown that they are operating in a truly meritocratic environment.

For the poster: So what if you're turned down by a top residency because you're a DO? If you're really the best, that one in ten thousand future surgeon, who cares? It's that program's loss, not yours. Now if you went to a truly bad program, sure, your future might be in question. I would imagine that medicine is probably like a great many other knowledge and skilled based professions, i.e. going to a good program is all a truly gifted person needs to be great. Find a program with an academic attending from Harvard/Hopkins/Big Name Program, pick his/her brain, and consider yourself educated.

I'm sure many people will disagree, but medicine is truly in the midst of a change. Technology, the introduction of mid-levels, and patient expectations all stand to be disruptive developments. Programs who want to make a mark on the future of medicine should be looking for brilliant people, no matter where they come from.
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I think you're missing the point of the advice the OP has received. People break barriers when they have no other choice; if you are trying to plan your future, the rational person tries to optimize their situation to achieve their stated goal. While the OP might be an exceptional student who is capable of breaking down prejudice against DOs based on his exceptional intelligence and skill, statistically he is better off NOT banking on being exceptional and rather tries to optimize the factors he an affect. The advice has been to avoid the path of resistance IF possible. His original question was how to obtain a "top" residency. While I still maintain that the OP's stated career goals do not entirely match the types of programs he considers "top," he was asking for advice on how to optimize his chances (matching to a big name (and therefore allopathic) general surg residency), not how to navigate a more difficult path (matching to a big name as a DO) for the sake of breaking down barriers.
 
LucidSplash said:
I think you're missing the point of the advice the OP has received. People break barriers when they have no other choice; if you are trying to plan your future, the rational person tries to optimize their situation to achieve their stated goal. While the OP might be an exceptional student who is capable of breaking down prejudice against DOs based on his exceptional intelligence and skill, statistically he is better off NOT banking on being exceptional and rather tries to optimize the factors he an affect. The advice has been to avoid the path of resistance IF possible. His original question was how to obtain a "top" residency. While I still maintain that the OP's stated career goals do not entirely match the types of programs he considers "top," he was asking for advice on how to optimize his chances (matching to a big name (and therefore allopathic) general surg residency), not how to navigate a more difficult path (matching to a big name as a DO) for the sake of breaking down barriers.
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I get your point. In this case, I guess the OP needs to determine which is more important: Being a super great MD surgeon or a super great DO surgeon. Both are obviously possible, but the stigma and prejudice he faces will be greater on the DO side.

It would definitely be easier to go MD, sure. Both pathways are difficult, but one will have more artificially placed challenges. Some people yearn for the latter. I think the take away is that surgical residencies are grueling all on their own, without needing to add in any extra challenges.
 
OCDEMS said:
I get your point. In this case, I guess the OP needs to determine which is more important: Being a super great MD surgeon or a super great DO surgeon. Both are obviously possible, but the stigma and prejudice he faces will be greater on the DO side.

It would definitely be easier to go MD, sure. Both pathways are difficult, but one will have more artificially placed challenges. Some people yearn for the latter. I think the take away is that surgical residencies are grueling all on their own, without needing to add in any extra challenges.
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Not really...there's no difference there.

OPs decision is whether he wants to go into academic medicine, or pursue the practice of surgery.

If academic, then do all you can to go MD. Take an SMP, get an MCAT tutor, etc. Also, you cant just go to any MD, but at least mid tier. Do great research. Its not that Harvard, and other top research schools are biased only against DO, but against any low tier MD school as well. Its tradition.

If surgery as a practice, then go where you want, do great on boards and surgical rotations. Prob wouldn't hurt to do some research. Then, as was pointed out earlier, look at the Surgery power houses, like UT Southwestern. But, then, also realize that there are many many great schools with great programs and that ranking medical schools is mostly by imaginary points.
 
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Step 1: Don't go to a DO school.
Step 2: Go to a highly ranked MD school.
Step 3: Wreck the USMLE's, honor your surgery rotations
Step 4: Scrounge up a paper or two at some point.

????

Step 6: Enjoy the hell that is surgery.
 
OCDEMS said:
I do understand why people have these desires as DOs. There is a very Jackie Robinson quality to the idea of a DO surgeon from Harvard or Hopkins (with all do respect to Mr. Robinson and the tremendous stereotypes and racism he overcame). I have respect for these dreamers, even if that's all it may be in the immediate future: a dream.
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Right. 🙄
 
cliquesh said:
All types of surgical specialities are DO unfriendly. 36 of the 4600 DOs that graduated last year matched Acgme surgery. You could go to a top PM&R, family medicine, anesthiology, pathology or pyschiatry residency coming from a DO school. Everything else is really unlikely, even Ob/gyn, internal medicine and peds.
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?
 
I am surprised to hear that a top program in anesthesiology would be more likely to take you than a top IM or Peds residency would...
 
sterlingh87 said:
?
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I think you're confused because that's a misrepresentation of statistics.

It can't be assumed that all applicants want an acgme surgery residency. It does not make sense to say 36 DOs place acgme surgery out of 4600 because no where near that number applied or want that career. You need to take into consideration applied vs accepted.

Also, it is important to note that most DO grads choose to take an AOA surgery residency, which has great placement numbers.
 
DrEnderW said:
I think you're confused because that's a misrepresentation of statistics.

It can't be assumed that all applicants want an acgme surgery residency. It does not make sense to say 36 DOs place acgme surgery out of 4600 because no where near that number applied or want that career. You need to take into consideration applied vs accepted.

Also, it is important to note that most DO grads choose to take an AOA surgery residency, which has great placement numbers.
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This. +1 👍

I hope more DO surgical residents/attendings would find some time to join SDN and share their experiences with us here.

Besides, SDN's gradually becoming the most boring place on the Interwebz to read about the nightmares or dilemmas of the Super Duper Neurotic medicine freaks, who mostly have some of the wrong reasons on earth to choose a career in medicine as a future physician unless they're not those Caribbean/foreign med school agents that play the role of the devil's advocate to agitate the feelings of the undecided, US-DO med school applicants in different formats day in day out.
 
maxheadroom said:
1. Harvard has three associated programs -- MGH is one of them.

2. If your "backstory" is so awesome, why couldn't it get you into your state's MD school? Believe me, MGH/Mayo/Hopkins General Surgery programs are much more competitive than your in-state medical school.

3. I'm an academic surgeon. The caliber of students that we see is tremendous. We just had our rank meeting and we had excellent students with tremendous USMLE scores, published research, and glowing letters from major academic chairs. Your ability to distinguish yourself in that pool coming from an osteopathic school is pretty small.

4. Best advice that most of us can give is, "Do whatever you need to do to clean up your application to get into an MD school," if those are your real goals.
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I don't disagree with any of the advice you've given the op. Clearly DO students are at a disadvantage when applying to certain competitive ACGME residencies. Still, since you are an academic surgeon, I would be interested to know why, in your opinion, surgery programs such as yours tend to favor MD students over DO students with equal or better USMLE scores, etc.
 
sterlingh87 said:
I am surprised to hear that a top program in anesthesiology would be more likely to take you than a top IM or Peds residency would...
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Yeah, I was talking about TOP programs. John Hopkins, Harvard, mayo, washU, etc, have taken DOs for anesthiology/PM&R. Upper tier IM peds and IM programs are DO haters. It's just the way it is.
 
DrEnderW said:
I think you're confused because that's a misrepresentation of statistics.

It can't be assumed that all applicants want an acgme surgery residency. It does not make sense to say 36 DOs place acgme surgery out of 4600 because no where near that number applied or want that career. You need to take into consideration applied vs accepted.

Also, it is important to note that most DO grads choose to take an AOA surgery residency, which has great placement numbers.
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I was just stating the data that is available.

If you look at, http://data.aacom.org/aacomas/do_gme_match_report2011.asp, it says that there are 1.63 "first choice" applicants per AOA general surgery spot. First choice means general surgery is your top speciality of choice. It doesn't include those who applied to orthopedics and general surgery or any other combination of speciality X and general surgery. So the number of applicants per AOA general surgery spot is greater than 1.63.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321562/data/2012factstable40.pdf says 456 DOs applied to general surgery in 2011. I don't know if that number is for AOA or ACGME or both. That year 28 DOs matched Acgme general surgery. 102 matched AOA surgery. So, at best, if those numbers are accurate, your odds of general surgery are (102+28)/456 = 28%
 
DrBumblebee said:
This. +1 👍

I hope more DO surgical residents/attendings would find some time to join SDN and share their experiences with us here.

Besides, SDN's gradually becoming the most boring place on the Interwebz to read about the nightmares or dilemmas of the Super Duper Neurotic medicine freaks, who mostly have some of the wrong reasons on earth to choose a career in medicine as a future physician unless they're not those Caribbean/foreign med school agents that play the role of the devil's advocate to agitate the feelings of the undecided, US-DO med school applicants in different formats day in day out.
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Exactly Bumblebee...when did SDN get so boring?

I guess it might be a good thing though...signs that we have moved on to better things? Maybe when we start med school the medical forums will liven up to fill what used to be the exciting premed SDN threads.
 
NurWollen said:
I don't disagree with any of the advice you've given the op. Clearly DO students are at a disadvantage when applying to certain competitive ACGME residencies. Still, since you are an academic surgeon, I would be interested to know why, in your opinion, surgery programs such as yours tend to favor MD students over DO students with equal or better USMLE scores, etc.
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Taking IMGs or DOs makes your residency program look weak. I was specifically told that by a program director at a program that traditionally doesn't take DOs.

The AOA match was today, just to let you'll know.
 
I want to know why the OP cares to train at a top program if he has no admitted interest in fellowship? It would seem to me like someone gunning for the top would keep gunning for the top. If you just want gsurg that is somewhat realistic for a DO as far as I've heard if you score well and get over the whole prestige thing.
 
cliquesh said:
Taking IMGs or DOs makes your residency program look weak. I was specifically told that by a program director at a program that traditionally doesn't take DOs.

The AOA match was today, just to let you'll know.
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...you dont really think that this is still the prevailing attitude, do you?

IMGs are a seperate issue, but with DO's...🙄


Just look at your reference sentence: "a" program director at "a" program that traditionally discriminates against DOs. That screams exception, does it not. The majority of programs just dont care...if you don't want to believe me, look at all the DOs who matched ACGME. And keep in mind that more could match if AOA programs didnt exist.

Yes, there are programs that dont take DOs. There are programs that dont take MDs. One day, we will all grow up and practice medicine together.


This is a silly attitude to adopt from a dying generation.
 
HalfListic said:
...you dont really think that this is still the prevailing attitude, do you?

IMGs are a seperate issue, but with DO's...🙄


Just look at your reference sentence: "a" program director at "a" program that traditionally discriminates against DOs. That screams exception, does it not. The majority of programs just dont care...if you don't want to believe me, look at all the DOs who matched ACGME. And keep in mind that more could match if AOA programs didnt exist.

Yes, there are programs that dont take DOs. There are programs that dont take MDs. One day, we will all grow up and practice medicine together.


This is a silly attitude to adopt from a dying generation.
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No, I don't think it's the prevailing attitude. At "top" programs, however, I believe it is still true. I also think it's still prevalent throughout Acgme surgical subspecalties. I know the hospital I did my surgery rotation at doesn't take DOs for their general surgery residency for the reason I stated above, and it is just a little community hospital.

I interviewed at some good places for residency, but I know USMDs with usmle scores 20 points lower than mine interviewing at "better" places. 22 points was the standard deviation on my usmle.
 
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cliquesh said:
No, I don't think it's the prevailing attitude. At "top" programs, however, I believe it is still true.
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OK, agreed 👍



PS hope your match went well! (if you were going AOA, and if not, then here's to march! 😉 )
 
cliquesh said:
Taking IMGs or DOs makes your residency program look weak. I was specifically told that by a program director at a program that traditionally doesn't take DOs.

The AOA match was today, just to let you'll know.
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Oh yeah, I forgot. The MD match is in a month or so the , right?
 
cliquesh said:
Taking IMGs or DOs makes your residency program look weak. I was specifically told that by a program director at a program that traditionally doesn't take DOs.

The AOA match was today, just to let you'll know.
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Just out of curiosity, if some law passed "Ahem, California", that allowed DOs to have the MD insignia, would all this bias magically go away?

I never understood if it had something to do with the schools or simply the last two letters of a person's name...
 
darklabel said:
Just out of curiosity, if some law passed "Ahem, California", that allowed DOs to have the MD insignia, would all this bias magically go away?

I never understood if it had something to do with the schools or simply the last two letters of a person's name...
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No, it's not the letters. It's the school. Going to the carib will make things even more difficult despite having an MD. If DO schools were accredited by the LCME, which accredits USMD schools, instead of the COCA, I think much of the bias would decrease.

But you know, not many DOs get outstanding usmle scores. I know of 3 people in my class with a 240 or above. I think you see few impressive matches from DO schools mostly because few DO students are good test takers. I think the DO bias still holds some back, but I don't think many DOs are qualified on paper for the more competitive specialties or residencies anyway.
 
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Bibliophilic said:
Long story, but I did a Master's with a 3.8 GPA. My MCAT is mostly what kept me from MD schools.
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Long story short, I think you don't realize how much of an uphill battle you are going to be fighting. You are likely going to struggle to get into ANY acgme surgery program not just MGH, Hopkins and Mayo.
 
cliquesh said:
Yeah, I was talking about TOP programs. John Hopkins, Harvard, mayo, washU, etc, have taken DOs for anesthiology/PM&R. Upper tier IM peds and IM programs are DO haters. It's just the way it is.
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umm... was just perusing around some DO school websites today and found this match list for TUNCOM. Its not even an exceptionally well established program yet and they have someone going IM at John's Hopkins...

http://tun.touro.edu/programs/colle...r-of-osteopathic-medicine/match-results-2012/
 
That's not the real John hopkins. That is a community hospital and, to my knowledge, it's a total piece of ****. John Hopkins bay view, which is another Hopkins community hospital, is actually pretty good. Bayview takes DOs for their IM program. John Hopkins Osler is the "real" Hopkins. They take DOs for anesthesia and PM&R...maybe for other stuff too, but not IM.
 
cliquesh said:
That's not the real John hopkins. That is a community hospital and, to my knowledge, it's a total piece of ****. John Hopkins bay view, which is another Hopkins community hospital, is actually pretty good. John Hopkins Osler is the "real" Hopkins. They take DOs for anesthesia and PM&R...maybe for other stuff too, but not IM.
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I am sorry I didnt realize John's Hopkins associated with piece of **** hospitals.
 
sterlingh87 said:
I am sorry I didnt realize John's Hopkins associated with piece of **** hospitals.
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That's just the impression I got when I read about it. Instate waiter, who I believe is an IM resident somewhere in Baltimore, could probably give a more accurate depiction of Sinai. Nevertheless, when people say Hopkins they don't mean Sinai or bay view, just like they don't mean North shore when referring to university of Chicago or penn hospital when referring to university of Pennsylvania.
 
cliquesh said:
That's not the real John hopkins. That is a community hospital and, to my knowledge, it's a total piece of ****.
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Please. 👎 Sinai is the Jewish hospital in Baltimore, and a major cardiac center-- not "a total piece of ****".
 
Danbo1957 said:
Please. 👎 Sinai is the Jewish hospital in Baltimore, and a major cardiac center-- not "a total piece of ****".
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Thanks Danbo, nice to have an attending's opinion.😍
 
I also found this guy, Dylan Bothamley, at the Cambridge Health Alliance teaching hospital of Harvard Medical School who is an IM resident.

http://www.challiance.org/Academics/Residents.aspx

But is Cambridge a **** hospital that Harvard is associated with? If that's the case I guess you can ignore the link.
 
DrBowtie said:
Classic pre-med mistake. See Mayo jax and Mayo Scottsdale for further examples. Those are about expanding the brand and increasing revenue flow.
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To this I would just refer you to the following:

Danbo1957 said:
Please. 👎 Sinai is the Jewish hospital in Baltimore, and a major cardiac center-- not "a total piece of ****".
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I didnt say it.
 
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