How to get into a top surgical residency.

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You wont find ANY US IMGs or DOs at top 10-20 internal medicine residencies. Sorry.
 
sterlingh87 said:
umm... was just perusing around some DO school websites today and found this match list for TUNCOM. Its not even an exceptionally well established program yet and they have someone going IM at John's Hopkins...

http://tun.touro.edu/programs/colle...r-of-osteopathic-medicine/match-results-2012/
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sterlingh87 said:
I am sorry I didnt realize John's Hopkins associated with piece of **** hospitals.
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cliquesh said:
That's just the impression I got when I read about it. Instate waiter, who I believe is an IM resident somewhere in Baltimore, could probably give a more accurate depiction of Sinai. Nevertheless, when people say Hopkins they don't mean Sinai or bay view, just like they don't mean North shore when referring to university of Chicago or penn hospital when referring to university of Pennsylvania.
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Danbo1957 said:
Please. 👎 Sinai is the Jewish hospital in Baltimore, and a major cardiac center-- not "a total piece of ****".
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I don't really know what a Jewish hospital is in this day an age... but to resond the above:

There are three hospitals Hopkins has attached its name to: JHH, Hopkins Bayview and Sinai

JHH is the bighouse, the main campus or whatever you want to call it. It is the real hopkins when people talk about hopkins. The others are satelite campuses. There is no competing with the real thing. We see stuff here that is sent from all over the world. When others don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole they send it to us (and that leaves us in an awkward position when we basically say, "No, we too don't want to touch that with a 10 foot pole")

As others have said, Bayview for IM is respectable. It is a strong mid-tier program despite being a Community hospital. It is on the same level as say University of Maryland. Its faculty are Hopkins faculty and much of the Geriatrics, Rheum and endocrine stuff at Hopkins occurs on the Bayview campus. It is not the hopkins that people talk about when they say "Hopkins." Nonetheless it is a respectable place to do IM residency. It doesn't really have a whole lot of other residencies there mainly because JHH IM, Neuro, all surgery subspecialties, ED residents and basically all of the Hopkins Fellows do rotations over at Bayview.

Sinai is peripherally related to hopkins. Very few of its faculty are Hopkins appointed. The only thing Hopkinsy about it is the fact that the name Hopkins was plastered before sinai. It is only hopkins in name. As training hospitals go, it is not a good place to train. It is like 10th fiddle in a not so big city.
 
Danbo1957 said:
In the future there will be ever fewer residency slots available for DO's... and never available at the big academic centers (eg.. not one DO in the Duke IM residency program):

http://residency.medicine.duke.edu/our-residents/current-residents
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haha, let me guess...your specialty is soothsaying?

"In the future"...

Im sorry, but you are obviously in no position to make such a statement. And you should know better than to say never.



I think most people realize that DOs are not headed for big academic centers. Neither are lower tier MDs. Thats life, and not many of us in this lowly state care that much...I've never had any interest in academic medicine. (don't get me wrong, Id love to match at Hopkins, but it not that big of a deal to me, and many others)

But, to say that residency spots will be fewer for DOs, "in the future"? Silliness...you should know better.
 
HalfListic said:
"In the future"...
Im sorry, but you are obviously in no position to make such a statement. And you should know better than to say never.

I think most people realize that DOs are not headed for big academic centers. Neither are lower tier MDs.
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First, actually he is in a position to make such claims. It is widely known that MD schools are going through a tremendous expansion yet the number of residency slots are not changing. So he was on point to say that in the future DOs are probably going to get squeezed. How much is anyone's guess. To ignore this fact is to be an ostrich with his head in the sand.

As to the assertion that people from low tier MD schools are not going to academic centers... thats wrong too. I agree they are not sent to big academic centers at the same rate as say, Harvard but for good students, the opportunities are still open. My class alone sent
4 to hopkins, 3 to Duke and then various numbers to MGH, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo, Wash U, Yale, and UCSF..
 
Could a resident/attending comment on why large academic centers are so desirable to train at? Is it simply because of the large volumes and greater varieties of pathologies coming in? To me, as someone interested in IM it would seem that I would want a reasonably sized hospital but one with a smaller number of residents. More autonomy, more time with attendings, senior residents who have spent loads of time with attendings... this seems like what would make me a better doctor post-residency. Having seen some bizarre pathology as a PGY1 standing behind 12 other residents seems like it is only appealing on paper and not always such a learning experience.

Insight appreciated.
 
Instatewaiter said:
First, actually he is in a position to make such claims. It is widely known that MD schools are going through a tremendous expansion yet the number of residency slots are not changing. So he was on point to say that in the future DOs are probably going to get squeezed. How much is anyone's guess. To ignore this fact is to be an ostrich with his head in the sand.
Click to expand...


I can see what you are saying here, and it is well known that GME is being overwhelmed by expanding medical school...both MD and DO. So, that means fewer spots for all, not just for DOs.

Who really knows what the future will hold with GME training? Its pretty obvious that something needs to be done to expand it, so I would tend to predict that something will be done to expand, rather than "squeezing DOs" out of the picture.

Agreed that the traditions won't soon change and DOs will be shunned where they always have been, but maybe you are forgetting about AOA slots, which dont take MDs at all...not just at a low rate, not at all (for good or bad).


I have no problem when we talk about MDs being preferred at top programs, as this is observable. But, predicting doom and gloom for the future of DOs crosses the from objective to subjective, however inevitable you might think that future is.

So, I see your point, but this being a pre-med forum, these comment come off as somewhat alarmist.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Long story short, I think you don't realize how much of an uphill battle you are going to be fighting. You are likely going to struggle to get into ANY acgme surgery program not just MGH, Hopkins and Mayo.
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I don't know why people are arguing with this fine chap. Just because you want him to be wrong (or you think the world should be a place where he is wrong) doesn't mean he is.
 
Textbookversion said:
I don't know why people are arguing with this fine chap. Just because you want him to be wrong (or you think the world should be a place where he is wrong) doesn't mean he is.
Click to expand...


He was doing great for almost all his posts...I was just helping his freight train of knowledge get back on track 😉
 
Ill take this moment to post a simple thought:

Its unfortunate that these conversations come up under titles like...how to get into a "top" program. I think most people realize that they are not headed to harvard or even emory...and most are OK with this.

I would suggest that more people are concerned with the idea that, like in this example of general surgery, can I get into a good gen surgery program and become a great gen surgeon (and so on).


The answer is obviously yes. DOs are all over surgery, gen, ortho, even neuro. (even if its not at a "top" program)


I wont argue with anyone who wants to point out that some programs will discriminate against DOs, or prefer MDs...they're out there. Meanwhile, AOA programs only take DOs...and both will likely stay largely the same, even after the ACGME/AOA "merger", for the foreseeable future.


So, if you feel like going back and forth about "top" programs, I wont argue.


I just want to present a voice that reminds any premed that, unless you have very specific aspirations, you can pursue nearly every avenue of medicine as a DO that you can as an MD. And that the real world is full of grown ups who just work together, regardless of the letters.
 
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ITT: outliers used to debunk "DOs can't go to top ACGME programs".

Edit: I mean, people with 15s on the MCAT have gotten into US MD schools, but ordinarily you would tell someone with a 15 that they have no chance.
 
MedPR said:
ITT: outliers used to debunk "DOs can't go to top ACGME programs".
Click to expand...

whoops...I think you missed the point. (edit: meaning, I didn't write that DOs get into top ACGME programs. Re-read...I wrote that most people care more about getting into a specialty than a specific program)



The point was that most people dont care that they cant get into "top" programs...they just want to get into their specialty. I felt like it was pretty clear.






(But, as an aside: if the argument were, "DOs can't go to top ACGME programs", which it isn't, then all you would need is one outlier to counter it, right? What you should have written was something about how either those outliers dont exist (which is true) or that the outliers are only an exception (which would at least be sound logically) 😉)
 
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HalfListic said:
whoops...I think you missed the point.



The point was that most people dont care that they cant get into "top" programs...they just want to get into their specialty. I felt like it was pretty clear.






(But, as an aside: if the argument were, "DOs can't go to top ACGME programs", which it isn't, then all you would need is one outlier to counter it, right? What you should have written was something about how either those outliers dont exist (which is true) or that the outliers are only an exception (which would at least be sound logically) 😉)
Click to expand...

Whose point was that people don't care that they can't get into top programs? Yours?

Yes, a single exception disproves the absolute statement "DOs can't get into top ACGME programs". I assumed it was commonly understood that most statements are meant to describe the majority.

I was simply pointing out that only in threads like these do people say stuff like "Well, here's this one (or handful) of examples of DOs in high places. So, it must not be as impossible as everyone is saying". But nowhere on SDN do people say "Well, according to the AAMC, 570 students from 2009-2011 matriculated with <21 MCAT to US MD schools so it must not be as impossible as everyone is saying".

People put so much more value into outliers when it comes to DO limitations. And I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the people who were pointing out DOs are the JHU extension or whatever it was.

In general, DOs have a few more limitations than MDs. It is what it is, and it's not a big deal.
 
MedPR said:
Whose point was that people don't care that they can't get into top programs? Yours?

Yes, a single exception disproves the absolute statement "DOs can't get into top ACGME programs". I assumed it was commonly understood that most statements are meant to describe the majority.

I was simply pointing out that only in threads like these do people say stuff like "Well, here's this one (or handful) of examples of DOs in high places. So, it must not be as impossible as everyone is saying". But nowhere on SDN do people say "Well, according to the AAMC, 570 students from 2009-2011 matriculated with <21 MCAT to US MD schools so it must not be as impossible as everyone is saying".

People put so much more value into outliers when it comes to DO limitations. And I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the people who were pointing out DOs are the JHU extension or whatever it was.

In general, DOs have a few more limitations than MDs. It is what it is, and it's not a big deal.
Click to expand...



Ok cool, it seemed like you were countering my post...but it looks like you were just continuing the earlier argument. (which I feel is a waste of resources! haha...)

We agree in most cases here, so we cool.
 
Anyone else write a post and just before you hit submit, ur like "fuq it" and u just close it down?

Happens to me all the time. Except not this time. Maybe next time. But you'd never know. I need to sleep.
 
DrWily said:
Anyone else write a post and just before you hit submit, ur like "fuq it" and u just close it down?

Happens to me all the time. Except not this time. Maybe next time. But you'd never know. I need to sleep.
Click to expand...

:laugh: 👍\

i cant help but feel like we've been robbed of a potential gem...
 
DrWily said:
Anyone else write a post and just before you hit submit, ur like "fuq it" and u just close it down?

Happens to me all the time. Except not this time. Maybe next time. But you'd never know. I need to sleep.
Click to expand...

Hahaha. Gold.
 
3syggu.jpg
 
DrWily said:
Anyone else write a post and just before you hit submit, ur like "fuq it" and u just close it down?

Happens to me all the time. Except not this time. Maybe next time. But you'd never know. I need to sleep.
Click to expand...

And here I thought I was the only one that did that.
 
Mr Kenobi said:
I really should have made that "Tribute to Dr Bumblebee: so bad it's good meme thread" when you were on post probation. Would have been one for the books. Next time...
Click to expand...

My humble suggestion for the OP of that thread.

21344654.jpg
 
Anyone remember that meme thread about that one guy who went to some 3rd world country and took pics of himself doing stuff and posted them on facebook or something? Well, SDN got ahold of them and you can imagine what happened.

Oh the lols. Maybe it was before your guys' time. Got closed down pretty quick but it was pretty good, I think.


Mbuto. Pass me another baby, I think this one has died.
 
DrWily said:
Anyone remember that meme thread about that one guy who went to some 3rd world country and took pics of himself doing stuff and posted them on facebook or something? Well, SDN got ahold of them and you can imagine what happened.

Oh the lols. Maybe it was before your guys' time. Got closed down pretty quick but it was pretty good, I think.


Mbuto. Pass me another baby, I think this one has died.
Click to expand...

I know this isn't what you are talking about, but it's the very first meme I thought of while reading your post. However, I believe the line at the end is from that awesome PS someone jokingly wrote up.

29199097.jpg
 
DrWily said:
Anyone remember that meme thread about that one guy who went to some 3rd world country and took pics of himself doing stuff and posted them on facebook or something? Well, SDN got ahold of them and you can imagine what happened.

Oh the lols. Maybe it was before your guys' time. Got closed down pretty quick but it was pretty good, I think.


Mbuto. Pass me another baby, I think this one has died.
Click to expand...

The pre med gunner thread? http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=846049

MedPR said:
My humble suggestion for the OP of that thread.

21344654.jpg
Click to expand...

Bumblebee memes are more like
images
 
OP - you gotta get into "the top ACGME" surgery program, or bite the dust.

3sym5g.jpg
 
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Instatewaiter said:
First, actually he is in a position to make such claims. It is widely known that MD schools are going through a tremendous expansion yet the number of residency slots are not changing. So he was on point to say that in the future DOs are probably going to get squeezed. How much is anyone's guess. To ignore this fact is to be an ostrich with his head in the sand.

As to the assertion that people from low tier MD schools are not going to academic centers... thats wrong too. I agree they are not sent to big academic centers at the same rate as say, Harvard but for good students, the opportunities are still open. My class alone sent
4 to hopkins, 3 to Duke and then various numbers to MGH, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo, Wash U, Yale, and UCSF..
Click to expand...
For the residency: http://news.atsu.edu/index.php/archives/1561
What school did you attend if you dont mind me asking?

MedPR said:
Whose point was that people don't care that they can't get into top programs? Yours?

Yes, a single exception disproves the absolute statement "DOs can't get into top ACGME programs". I assumed it was commonly understood that most statements are meant to describe the majority.I was simply pointing out that only in threads like these do people say stuff like "Well, here's this one (or handful) of examples of DOs in high places. So, it must not be as impossible as everyone is saying". But nowhere on SDN do people say "Well, according to the AAMC, 570 students from 2009-2011 matriculated with <21 MCAT to US MD schools so it must not be as impossible as everyone is saying".

People put so much more value into outliers when it comes to DO limitations. And I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the people who were pointing out DOs are the JHU extension or whatever it was.

In general, DOs have a few more limitations than MDs. It is what it is, and it's not a big deal.
Click to expand...

I only post on these threads when people have asserted with a tone that implies that they are speaking absolute truth. When people say "its harder for DOs to place in competitive residencies" I have no problem. But when people say things that imply that having a DO degree will definitely keep you out of a competitive residency I dont like to stand by because it perpetuates the idea that a DO is less of a "doctor" than an MD. The truth is you have just as much of a chance at a competitive residency from a DO standpoint as you do from a low teir MD school, and the entrance stats are about the same so that shouldnt be surprising. I mean how many Rosilyn Franklin, Drexel, or Meharry students do you see in top programs? Really there shouldnt be a distinction between low teir MD schools and DO schools.
 
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Mr Kenobi said:
The pre med gunner thread? http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=846049



Bumblebee memes are more like
images
Click to expand...

Lmao.

sterlingh87 said:
For the residency: http://news.atsu.edu/index.php/archives/1561
What school did you attend if you dont mind me asking?



I only post on these threads when people have asserted with a tone that implies that they are speaking absolute truth. When people say "its harder for DOs to place in competitive residencies" I have no problem. But when people say things that imply that having a DO degree will definitely keep you out of a competitive residency I dont like to stand by because it perpetuates the idea that a DO is less of a "doctor" than an MD. The truth is you have just as much of a chance at a competitive residency from a DO standpoint as you do from a low teir MD school, and the entrance stats are about the same so that shouldnt be surprising. I mean how many Rosilyn Franklin, Drexel, or Meharry students do you see in top programs? Really there shouldnt be a distinction between low teir MD schools and DO schools.
Click to expand...

There really are no absolutes. Like I said, "DOs can't match top ACGME surg programs" is about as absolute as "Pre-meds can't get into US MD school with a 15 MCAT". Both have exceptions, but both are so rare that they may as well be absolute statements.

Also, I understand that people like to group schools into top/middle/low tier, but Drexel and RFUMS do not have nearly as low statistics as Meharry does.

Drexel median: 3.62/31
RFUMS median: 3.75/30
Meharry median: 3.25/25 <-- Lower than many DO schools.
 
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MedPR said:
There really are no absolutes. Like I said, "DOs can't match top ACGME surg programs" is about as absolute as "Pre-meds can't get into US MD school with a 15 MCAT". Both have exceptions, but both are so rare that they may as well be absolute statements.
Click to expand...

We agree on absolutes, but I think we both know upper teir residencies for DO students is a bit more common than a 15 MCAT getting you into a US MD school. Like 10/3,000 (3,000 being the rough number of DO graduates a year) vs 1/10,000
 
sterlingh87 said:
We agree on absolutes, but I think we both know upper teir residencies for DO students is a bit more common than a 15 MCAT getting you into a US MD school. Like 10/3,000 (3,000 being the rough number of DO graduates a year) vs 1/10,000
Click to expand...

10/3000 DOs end up in top ACGME surgery programs each year? Where did you get that data from?

From 2009-2011: 570/57,277 accepted students had an MCAT score of 5-20, 65 of those had 15-17. The 2009 DO class was 3845 people.

10/845 = .0026
65/57277 = .001

Both are abysmally low.
 
sterlingh87 said:
For the residency: http://news.atsu.edu/index.php/archives/1561
What school did you attend if you dont mind me asking?



I only post on these threads when people have asserted with a tone that implies that they are speaking absolute truth. When people say "its harder for DOs to place in competitive residencies" I have no problem. But when people say things that imply that having a DO degree will definitely keep you out of a competitive residency I dont like to stand by because it perpetuates the idea that a DO is less of a "doctor" than an MD. The truth is you have just as much of a chance at a competitive residency from a DO standpoint as you do from a low teir MD school, and the entrance stats are about the same so that shouldnt be surprising. I mean how many Rosilyn Franklin, Drexel, or Meharry students do you see in top programs? Really there shouldnt be a distinction between low teir MD schools and DO schools.
Click to expand...


👍

also, a great example to bring up with your ATSU link. The doom and gloom that is thrown around assumes that we all will stand by and watch the ship we are on go down...not likely.
 
MedPR said:
10/3000 DOs end up in top ACGME surgery programs each year? Where did you get that data from?

From 2009-2011: 570/57,277 accepted students had an MCAT score of 5-20, 65 of those had 15-17. The 2009 DO class was 3845 people.

10/845 = .0026
65/57277 = .001

Both are abysmally low.
Click to expand...

I just threw out a number. I figured if I found two from one DO school without even looking I could find eight more in the other 29 DO locations.

Yes they are both low, but one is twice the probability of the other.
 
MedPR said:
10/3000 DOs end up in top ACGME surgery programs each year? Where did you get that data from?

From 2009-2011: 570/57,277 accepted students had an MCAT score of 5-20, 65 of those had 15-17. The 2009 DO class was 3845 people.

10/845 = .0026
65/57277 = .001

Both are abysmally low.
Click to expand...

One point, among a few, that you are ignoring is the fact that ALL med school applicants are trying to get into med school. Very few of the 3000 DOs are trying to get into surgery. That changes the numbers significantly.

Statistics are only as useful to the point that they are interpreted correctly.


**Again, though, I think the main point is that while the "top" programs discriminate agains DO (and low tier MD) students, those students can still specialize at good programs. And I still maintain that this is what most people care about.
 
HalfListic said:
One point, among a few, that you are ignoring is the fact that ALL med school applicants are trying to get into med school. Very few of the 3000 DOs are trying to get into surgery. That changes the numbers significantly.

Statistics are only as useful to the point that they are interpreted correctly.
Click to expand...

Ok I'll rephrase, though my point remains the same.

10/3800 (this probably isn't accurate, but who cares) DOs matching top ACGME surgery programs is abysmally low. The ratio of 15 MCAT acceptee/applicant ratio is probably even lower. Both are so low that they do not represent a likely situation, and thus most people would say one's chance of achieving it is nearing non-existence.

And yes, I agree that DOs have access to just about everything MDs do.
 
MedPR said:
Ok I'll rephrase, though my point remains the same.

10/3800 (this probably isn't accurate, but who cares) DOs matching top ACGME surgery programs is abysmally low. The ratio of 15 MCAT acceptee/applicant ratio is probably even lower. Both are so low that they do not represent a likely situation, and thus most people would say one's chance of achieving it is nearing non-existence.

And yes, I agree that DOs have access to just about everything MDs do.
Click to expand...

Perfect. We agree then. 👍
 
MedPR said:
Ok I'll rephrase, though my point remains the same.

10/3800 (this probably isn't accurate, but who cares) DOs matching top ACGME surgery programs is abysmally low. The ratio of 15 MCAT acceptee/applicant ratio is probably even lower. Both are so low that they do not represent a likely situation, and thus most people would say one's chance of achieving it is nearing non-existence.

And yes, I agree that DOs have access to just about everything MDs do.
Click to expand...



I see what you are trying to express...but the numbers we need are DO students who have actually attempted to apply to ACGME programs, then it can be a real conversation.

I cant assume that the number is really as low as you think it is (though it may be), or not.

I do assume its lower than MD ratios, though, so Ill give you that.
 
MedPR said:
Ok I'll rephrase, though my point remains the same.

10/3800 (this probably isn't accurate, but who cares) DOs matching top ACGME surgery programs is abysmally low. The ratio of 15 MCAT acceptee/applicant ratio is probably even lower. Both are so low that they do not represent a likely situation, and thus most people would say one's chance of achieving it is nearing non-existence.

And yes, I agree that DOs have access to just about everything MDs do.
Click to expand...

Just like people winning the 350 million dollar lottery. Someone wins, but it's not going to be you.
 
HalfListic said:
I see what you are trying to express...but the numbers we need are DO students who have actually attempted to apply to ACGME programs, then it can be a real conversation.
I cant assume that the number is really as low as you think it is (though it may be), or not.

I do assume its lower than MD ratios, though, so Ill give you that.
Click to expand...

Thats a good point.
I too agree that it is likely lower than MD ratios, but that would be due to that fact that all DO schools will be considered lower teir competing against all MD schools low teir to ivy league.
 
mnhockeyfan said:
Just like people winning the 350 million dollar lottery. Someone wins, but it's not going to be you.
Click to expand...

See, now this is a great example of a grossly inaccurate comparison. Comparing a 1 in millions chance, with completely randomized odds, and a history of intrigue, to a process that involves intelligence, permanence, etc and is exponentially more likely.

So, no, its not like the lotto. Its like getting into med school. If you look at the numbers, its highly unlikely. But, if you look at each applicant, they each have a value of acceptance that could be greatly different than the statistical average.
 
HalfListic said:
See, now this is a great example of a grossly inaccurate comparison. Comparing a 1 in millions chance, with completely randomized odds, and a history of intrigue, to a process that involves intelligence, permanence, etc and is exponentially more likely.
Click to expand...

Both have small odds of happening, that's all I'm trying to say.
 
All this stats talk and generalization makes me bored. Is it possible to get a top AGCME surgery residency? Possible, but improbable for a large majority of medical students. You work your ass off, and do MORE than your colleagues to stand out, and you have a shot. Blending in with the crowd and going with the flow does not a top ACGME surgeon make. When your peers are all top students from around the country, it's hard to be the cream of the cream of the crop. Most people cannot do this and don't have the drive (or get burnt out) so it is easy to quote stats and say "i didn't have a chance anyway." But you always did (1% yo, make it happen)
 
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