How to proceed in the event of not matching for residency?

[Hedgehog32]

Just got the email; I didn't match with any residency programs, even the one I worked as an intern at for 2 years.

So assuming I don't have any luck with Phase II or the scramble (since they're even more competitive than Phase I), is my last remaining option to basically apply to non-traditional positions that a pharmacist might qualify for?

I don't even qualify for retail pharmacy jobs since all my intern experience is in inpatient settings. There are currently only two pharmacist job postings for my city on Indeed.com, and they're both for CVS and Walgreens, with both of them requiring experience (not that I wanted to work retail anyways).

Ironically enough, I was actually offered an intern job back during the fall by the CVS DM whose territory includes my city, but I turned it down. She warned me that I wouldn't be considered for pharmacist positions otherwise since CVS now requires at least a year of retail experience either as an intern or pharmacist to be considered for pharmacist positions (at least in my area; not sure if this is a corporate policy).

From what people have told me, even rural/BFE hospital pharmacist positions are no longer considering new graduates, so I'm assuming that isn't a viable option unless I randomly get lucky with something.

I'm actually starting to seriously wonder what I'm going to end up doing after I graduate. Could it honestly be a smart move at this point to start applying to programs in professions with a more viable job market, whether that's CS or something else?

@Pharmacy is a Scam

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[spacecowgirl]

I'm sorry you didn't match in Phase I. Is there a big cost to Phase II/scramble? Aside from your time, of course. When I was an RPD, we participated in the scramble and got a resident who 1) was awesome 2) would never have applied to our site because it was very far away from her home 3) is still a friend 4) got a job in her preferred location and setting after 1 year of experience in another hospital

 

[Hedgehog32]

I'm sorry you didn't match in Phase I. Is there a big cost to Phase II/scramble? Aside from your time, of course. When I was an RPD, we participated in the scramble and got a resident who 1) was awesome 2) would never have applied to our site because it was very far away from her home 3) is still a friend 4) got a job in her preferred location and setting after 1 year of experience in another hospital

To be honest, I'm not sure if there are any other costs aside from the fees associated with applying to specific programs. Maybe there's just something wrong with me, but what's weird is that part of me honestly didn't want to match anywhere, so I don't know what will end up happening. I also applied to a master's degree program that educates people with non-CS backgrounds to be software engineers, but it's extremely competitive, so I'm not counting on getting accepted to that either.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Just got the email; I didn't match with any residency programs, even the one I worked as an intern at for 2 years.

So assuming I don't have any luck with Phase II or the scramble (since they're even more competitive than Phase I), is my last remaining option to basically apply to non-traditional positions that a pharmacist might qualify for?

I don't even qualify for retail pharmacy jobs since all my intern experience is in inpatient settings. There are currently only two pharmacist job postings for my city on Indeed.com, and they're both for CVS and Walgreens, with both of them requiring experience (not that I wanted to work retail anyways).

Ironically enough, I was actually offered an intern job back during the fall by the CVS DM whose territory includes my city, but I turned it down. She warned me that I wouldn't be considered for pharmacist positions otherwise since CVS now requires at least a year of retail experience either as an intern or pharmacist to be considered for pharmacist positions (at least in my area; not sure if this is a corporate policy).

From what people have told me, even rural/BFE hospital pharmacist positions are no longer considering new graduates, so I'm assuming that isn't a viable option unless I randomly get lucky with something.

I'm actually starting to seriously wonder what I'm going to end up doing after I graduate. Could it honestly be a smart move at this point to start applying to programs in professions with a more viable job market, whether that's CS or something else?

@Pharmacy is a Scam

Sorry to hear that, but I suppose this provides clarity for future directions. If you're going for Phase 2 then you'd probably have to start contacting programs by today (no joke) because programs who didn't match are in a mad scramble as well (because no program goes into match day not expecting to match) and your chances of connecting with a program that is "desperate" is really high right now so early bird gets the worm here.

As to what happens if the residency thing doesn't work out, I would still do what I've recommended which is to start applying to any and every pharmacist job for the next few months, study/take boards by May/June and get licensed. In the meantime if a career pivot is really something you want to do then look into applying to programs that start in the fall so you'll have time to confirm that you truly can't get a pharmacist job. I have a friend who didn't match this year and they are on the job hunt now (skipping Phase 2). Good luck.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

To be honest, I'm not sure if there are any other costs aside from the fees associated with applying to specific programs. Maybe there's just something wrong with me, but what's weird is that part of me honestly didn't want to match anywhere, so I don't know what will end up happening. I also applied to a master's degree program that educates people with non-CS backgrounds to be software engineers, but it's extremely competitive, so I'm not counting on getting accepted to that either.

I feel it for you. It must be super demoralizing. But keep your head up, and prepare for the worse case scenario, ie, the career pivot. You've got nothing to lose at this point, so I would highly encourage to go all in. register for foothill college and get those prereqs. it runs by quarters so maybe 2 quarters in, you will have 5-6 fundamentals under your belt. code, study for boards, apply to jobs (all kinds of jobs, traditional, nontraditional, non-pharmacy related, whatever, and don't restrict yourself in that geographical region, apply everywhere) & other cs programs and maybe even bootcamps. Right now it's the coronavirus panic season, so all on-campus programs are shifting to online learning anyway.

Regarding the scramble, you can give it a shot, but I wouldn't put much hope for it. the more you hope, the bigger the disappointment. Better control your destiny in your own hands, not begging or wishing miracle happens. prepare now as if you already have your back against the wall.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

the coronavirus panic is only the beginning. full scale pandemic is looming over the horizon, like what we saw in china, italy, iran, japan and south korea. US won't lock cities down like them, so I would expect numbers getting much worse. The longer it drags, the bigger the economic impact will be. It can get very ugly very fast, and it's already bloodbaths after bloodbaths on the wall street. The chance we are heading into a recession is very real.

pharmacy or no pharmacy jobs, diversifying your skill set during a period of high uncertainty & low market confidence is always the wise thing to do. Who knows what job market will look like later this year or next year? Massive layoffs or not. Better to hedge and prepare accordingly.

 

[spacecowgirl]

tech support for Webex/Skype/Zoom jobs should be booming.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

tech support for Webex/Skype/Zoom jobs should be booming.

Teladoc stock rose steadily during market sell-off. If covid-19 last more than a few months, telemedicine might gain sizable market share and permanently shift the future for family medicine.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I didn't match either. I'm right there with you. It's incredibly demoralizing to know we live in a world where can work so hard and in the end be screwed over by the system or other interests that aren't interested in you at all.

The path forward is the same as it always will be in life. Look for options and pursue the best ones. Do the research, make the right decisions and work hard and one day you'll look back and view this as an opportunity. We're avoiding working to death for a year or two for half pay for the luxury of being bullied around by boomers for the rest of our careers for being "snowflakes" just because we want to survive financially and not be depressed after working way harder then they ever had to.

Sorry to hear you didn't match either, and good luck with phase 2 if you should decide to give re-applying a shot. I agree that the thought of getting abused and bossed around for a year sucks, but at the same time, I guess the saturation has gotten so bad that pharmacy students are even stumbling over each other just to have the "opportunity" to put themselves through that. Just a case of doing what you have to do, I guess.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Sorry to hear that, but I suppose this provides clarity for future directions. If you're going for Phase 2 then you'd probably have to start contacting programs by today (no joke) because programs who didn't match are in a mad scramble as well (because no program goes into match day not expecting to match) and your chances of connecting with a program that is "desperate" is really high right now so early bird gets the worm here.

As to what happens if the residency thing doesn't work out, I would still do what I've recommended which is to start applying to any and every pharmacist job for the next few months, study/take boards by May/June and get licensed. In the meantime if a career pivot is really something you want to do then look into applying to programs that start in the fall so you'll have time to confirm that you truly can't get a pharmacist job. I have a friend who didn't match this year and they are on the job hunt now (skipping Phase 2). Good luck.

Appreciate the advice. To respond to what you said about the career pivot, it's not necessarily that I *want* to pursue a different career (I would honestly be happy with a 7 on/7 off night shift position at a hospital), but more about the fact that I want to waste as little time as possible accepting the reality of having to do that if it comes down to it. I'm still keeping in touch with both pharmacy school graduates as well as residency program graduates who all finished their respective programs in May/June 2019, and so many of them are still unemployed and living at home with their parents that it's hard to not think that my circumstances will be any different 6-12 months from now. One reason I feel this way is because aside from holding an intern job for a couple years and serving as president of a single campus organization, I didn't do anything else to differentiate myself apart from the 15,000 - 16,000 other pharmacy school students who will be graduating in May, so I'm just trying to be realistic here.

To be honest, I don't think I had much of a chance of matching in the first place. At both of my residency program interviews, I asked all of the other applicants about their pharmacy-related extracurricular activities, and literally every single one of them completed a research project, whereas I have ZERO research experience. At first, that made me wonder why I was invited to interview at these programs in the first place, and then it hit me that they probably only invited me as a "backup" candidate to rank at a very low position just to cover their bases in case the more competitive and accomplished applicants ranked another facility higher.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I feel it for you. It must be super demoralizing. But keep your head up, and prepare for the worse case scenario, ie, the career pivot. You've got nothing to lose at this point, so I would highly encourage to go all in. register for foothill college and get those prereqs. it runs by quarters so maybe 2 quarters in, you will have 5-6 fundamentals under your belt. code, study for boards, apply to jobs (all kinds of jobs, traditional, nontraditional, non-pharmacy related, whatever, and don't restrict yourself in that geographical region, apply everywhere) & other cs programs and maybe even bootcamps. Right now it's the coronavirus panic season, so all on-campus programs are shifting to online learning anyway.

Regarding the scramble, you can give it a shot, but I wouldn't put much hope for it. the more you hope, the bigger the disappointment. Better control your destiny in your own hands, not begging or wishing miracle happens. prepare now as if you already have your back against the wall.

I'm not counting on it, but maybe I'll get extremely lucky and get accepted to UPenn's MCIT. The only problem with taking undergrad courses at a school like Foothill College is that I won't qualify for loans to pay for the classes. I'm not really in a good position to spend several thousand dollars out-of-pocket to take classes right now since I lost my intern job back in December and have been unemployed since then. Unfortunately, I already wasted so much money applying to something like 12-13 residency programs.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Appreciate the advice. To respond to what you said about the career pivot, it's not necessarily that I *want* to pursue a different career (I would honestly be happy with a 7 on/7 off night shift position at a hospital), but more about the fact that I want to waste as little time as possible accepting the reality of having to do that if it comes down to it. I'm still keeping in touch with both pharmacy school graduates as well as residency program graduates who all finished their respective programs in May/June 2019, and so many of them are still unemployed and living at home with their parents that it's hard to not think that my circumstances will be any different 6-12 months from now. One reason I feel this way is because aside from holding an intern job for a couple years and serving as president of a single campus organization, I didn't do anything else to differentiate myself apart from the 15,000 - 16,000 other pharmacy school students who will be graduating in May, so I'm just trying to be realistic here.

To be honest, I don't think I had much of a chance of matching in the first place. At both of my residency program interviews, I asked all of the other applicants about their pharmacy-related extracurricular activities, and literally every single one of them completed a research project, whereas I have ZERO research experience. At first, that made me wonder why I was invited to interview at these programs in the first place, and then it hit me that they probably only invited me as a "backup" candidate to rank at a very low position just to cover their bases in case the more competitive and accomplished applicants ranked another facility higher.

Highly doubt it's due to research. Any residency program that understands how to evaluate a candidate properly will know that any student can put together a poster and present at Midyear because none of those posters are peer-reviewed. So when you say "he has research, I have none" that really only comes into play if your "research" experience involves being published in a peer reviewed journal or something to that effect. Every residency committee I've been part of doesn't weigh research more than 5% anyways.

From what you've been saying the last few months, it seems like you just didn't sell yourself well enough during interviews. The fact that they gave you interviews means your overall application was good enough, and when you get to the interviewing phase you start with a clean slate. It's not like your application is weighed 50% and your interview is weighed 50% when a program decides on their final ranking... it is based 100% on the interview. So I doubt that it's because the other candidates had better stats than you, but moreso how they carried themselves in the interviewing environment.

And rankings are subjective anyways -- could be that they wanted a resident out of state, a candidate is the son of the hospital director or something like that -- so there's just so much you can't control outside the interview.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Highly doubt it's due to research. Any residency program that understands how to evaluate a candidate properly will know that any student can put together a poster and present at Midyear because none of those posters are peer-reviewed. So when you say "he has research, I have none" that really only comes into play if your "research" experience involves being published in a peer reviewed journal or something to that effect. Every residency committee I've been part of doesn't weigh research more than 5% anyways.

From what you've been saying the last few months, it seems like you just didn't sell yourself well enough during interviews. The fact that they gave you interviews means your overall application was good enough, and when you get to the interviewing phase you start with a clean slate. It's not like your application is weighed 50% and your interview is weighed 50% when a program decides on their final ranking... it is based 100% on the interview. So I doubt that it's because the other candidates had better stats than you, but moreso how they carried themselves in the interviewing environment.

And rankings are subjective anyways -- could be that they wanted a resident out of state, a candidate is the son of the hospital director or something like that -- so there's just so much you can't control outside the interview.

I know that one of the other candidates in my interview group at the hospital I used to work as an intern at is married to an administrator at one of the hospitals owned by the hospital network, so I figure she was ranked ahead of me. Also, they said they interviewed more candidates (63-65) than they've ever interviewed before simply due to the sheer number of applications they received this year, so I guess the odds weren't really in my favor. Still, I'm assuming I must have said something really off-putting to not match with the hospital network I used to work as an intern for. It makes me wonder where/how I slipped up since they didn't really ask any clinical questions.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I'm not counting on it, but maybe I'll get extremely lucky and get accepted to UPenn's MCIT. The only problem with taking undergrad courses at a school like Foothill College is that I won't qualify for loans to pay for the classes. I'm not really in a good position to spend several thousand dollars out-of-pocket to take classes right now since I lost my intern job back in December and have been unemployed since then. Unfortunately, I already wasted so much money applying to something like 12-13 residency programs.

well you have to start somewhere right?
residency now sounds like a lottery that never pays off to me.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I know that one of the other candidates in my interview group at the hospital I used to work as an intern at is married to an administrator at one of the hospitals owned by the hospital network, so I figure she was ranked ahead of me. Also, they said they interviewed more candidates (63-65) than they've ever interviewed before simply due to the sheer number of applications they received this year, so I guess the odds weren't really in my favor. Still, I'm assuming I must have said something really off-putting to not match with the hospital network I used to work as an intern for. It makes me wonder where/how I slipped up since they didn't really ask any clinical questions.

it wasn't your fault. nepotism, remember?

 

[Hedgehog32]

it wasn't your fault. nepotism, remember?

Maybe so, but there were still about 7 other spots to compete for, so I guess I just didn't "bring it" to the interview as compared to the 60-65 other applicants they interviewed.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Maybe so, but there were still about 7 other spots to compete for, so I guess I just didn't "bring it" to the interview as compared to the 60-65 other applicants they interviewed.

getting the residency doesn't mean anything. nothing guaranteed. finishing residency into recession and unemployment is worst.

 

[SClENCE]

My advice is to try to get a retail/mail-order-/LTC job and keep applying to hospital jobs including PRN/part-time to get your foot in the door somewhere.

You'll make more money in the long run anyways by not doing a residency

 

[Hedgehog32]

My advice is to try to get a retail/mail-order-/LTC job and keep applying to hospital jobs including PRN/part-time to get your foot in the door somewhere.

You'll make more money in the long run anyways by not doing a residency

Assuming I don't match with any programs in phase 2, I think I'll just keep applying for overnight/part-time/PRN hospital and LTC jobs while I begin pursuing the education to become a coder/software engineer (actually waiting to hear back from an online software engineering program on April 15th).

 

[Hedgehog32]

Dang, that was fast. Applied on 3/17 for a VA residency program that had a phase 2 spot open and received the rejection email this morning. The rumor is that many programs are receiving 200+ applications per spot.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

Dang, that was fast. Applied on 3/17 for a VA residency program that had a phase 2 spot open and received the rejection email this morning. The rumor is that many programs are receiving 200+ applications per spot.

time to move on. beating the dead horse is not the right way to go.

 

[Hedgehog32]

time to move on. beating the dead horse is not the right way to go.

I agree; it's just that I feel like I would be doing myself a disservice if I didn't at least try to make something of the time, effort, and money I spent getting my pharmacy degree.

Since residency looks like it won't be happening for me, I think I'll start getting in touch with the DOPs of hospitals that have posted online job listings for 7 on/7 off night shift pharmacists to at least introduce myself and let them know that I'm interested in working in an overnight position on a long-term career basis (I.e., that I'm not one of those pharmacists who views a night shift position as an eventual stepping stone to a day shift position).

I guess you could say that the "wildcard" factor is the online MCIT program I applied to at UPenn. I'm not particularly optimistic about my chances of getting accepted, but if I am, I'll definitely matriculate, even if I do manage to get a pharmacist job. It's not even about not wanting to work as a pharmacist (again, I know I'd actually enjoy an overnight position); rather, it's about the fact that software engineering is a valuable skillset to develop in general, and possessing both the Pharm. D. as well as a graduate degree in SWE would put me in a supremely marketable position when it comes to applying for both SWE as well as pharmacy jobs. In other words, I consider it to be something of an insurance policy for my career, if you will.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

I agree; it's just that I feel like I would be doing myself a disservice if I didn't at least try to make something of the time, effort, and money I spent getting my pharmacy degree.

Since residency looks like it won't be happening for me, I think I'll start getting in touch with the DOPs of hospitals that have posted online job listings for 7 on/7 off night shift pharmacists to at least introduce myself and let them know that I'm interested in working in an overnight position on a long-term career basis (I.e., that I'm not one of those pharmacists who views a night shift position as an eventual stepping stone to a day shift position).

I guess you could say that the "wildcard" factor is the online MCIT program I applied to at UPenn. I'm not particularly optimistic about my chances of getting accepted, but if I am, I'll definitely matriculate, even if I do manage to get a pharmacist job. It's not even about not wanting to work as a pharmacist (again, I know I'd actually enjoy an overnight position); rather, it's about the fact that software engineering is a valuable skillset to develop in general, and possessing both the Pharm. D. as well as a graduate degree in SWE would put me in a supremely marketable position when it comes to applying for both SWE as well as pharmacy jobs. In other words, I consider it to be something of an insurance policy for my career, if you will.

there is a rule of thumb in trading stock options, at least that's the way I learned it. The handy rule is, if your trade is bleeding more than 25%, close it. if your trade is gaining more than 75%, close it too.

What I was saying is that, if anything requires you to double down investment, either time or money, to presumably get the same or just slightly more reward, you should walk away immediately and better do something else. That's how I always felt about pharmacy residency. Just think about it: I will be a PharmD and get licensed regardless, does residency guarantee me anything? NO. does residency pay me well? NO, at least not worth the opportunity cost and time & effort investment if I invest my time elsewhere, ie. coding. does residency make me more competitive? Maybe, but not dramatically as there are still quite a bunch of residency-trained pharmacists unemployed or underemployed. So, why try it since day 1 with all the efforts to keep grades up and do all the useless extracurriculars, which don't matter even a bit in actual job hunt or add any marketable skill set, and keep applying over and over again?

If I were you, I would start job hunt and start coding ASAP. pharmacy is a dead horse. the job may or may not be there, and pretty much everything is out of your control right now.

 

[pharmacy_sucks]

there is a rule of thumb in trading stock options, at least that's the way I learned it. The handy rule is, if your trade is bleeding more than 25%, close it. if your trade is gaining more than 75%, close it too.

What I was saying is that, if anything requires you to double down investment, either time or money, to presumably get the same or just slightly more reward, you should walk away immediately and better do something else. That's how I always felt about pharmacy residency. Just think about it: I will be a PharmD and get licensed regardless, does residency guarantee me anything? NO. does residency pay me well? NO, at least not worth the opportunity cost and time & effort investment if I invest my time elsewhere, ie. coding. does residency make me more competitive? Maybe, but not dramatically as there are still quite a bunch of residency-trained pharmacists unemployed or underemployed. So, why try it since day 1 with all the efforts to keep grades up and do all the useless extracurriculars, which don't matter even a bit in actual job hunt or add any marketable skill set, and keep applying over and over again?

If I were you, I would start job hunt and start coding ASAP. pharmacy is a dead horse. the job may or may not be there, and pretty much everything is out of your control right now.

today is a happy day. just made $500 bucks with $5k playing with Tesla call credit spread in like 2 hours and closed my trade lol.

The pharmacy curriculum indoctrinated us to be risk averse, guidelines after guidelines, blackbox warnings blah blah blah, but I call that total bullsh*t. Without the risk-seeking side, I would be stuck with pharmacy and feel miserable and hopeless about myself like the vast majority of pharmacists out there.

Yesterday I shared my planned Gatech matriculation in my class facebook group. Some were quite shocked, and some tried to pat themselves in the back and say AI would complement with pharmacists' patient care, blah blah blah you know all old cliche stuff. I said flat out that I see no future in pharmacy, and I encouraged them to be prepared, cuz I will apply what I learn towards sabotaging this profession. I am fed up with all the BS talk in the past 3.5 years, so let them do all the PGY-1 and PGY-2 then come out see their planned career demolished lol. Some self-righteous, entitled, and condescending gunners absolutely disgust me, and I would be more than happy to see them cry.

 

[Hedgehog32]

there is a rule of thumb in trading stock options, at least that's the way I learned it. The handy rule is, if your trade is bleeding more than 25%, close it. if your trade is gaining more than 75%, close it too.

What I was saying is that, if anything requires you to double down investment, either time or money, to presumably get the same or just slightly more reward, you should walk away immediately and better do something else. That's how I always felt about pharmacy residency. Just think about it: I will be a PharmD and get licensed regardless, does residency guarantee me anything? NO. does residency pay me well? NO, at least not worth the opportunity cost and time & effort investment if I invest my time elsewhere, ie. coding. does residency make me more competitive? Maybe, but not dramatically as there are still quite a bunch of residency-trained pharmacists unemployed or underemployed. So, why try it since day 1 with all the efforts to keep grades up and do all the useless extracurriculars, which don't matter even a bit in actual job hunt or add any marketable skill set, and keep applying over and over again?

If I were you, I would start job hunt and start coding ASAP. pharmacy is a dead horse. the job may or may not be there, and pretty much everything is out of your control right now.

What you said about residency still not guaranteeing a job post-graduation is one of the reasons I was apprehensive about doing a residency in the first place, although I figured it was at least worth a shot. Like some of the other SDN posters pointed out, though, one reason I was basically obligated to at least shoot for a residency is because of the fact that I don't have anything else (I.e., a job) lined up. Sometimes I wonder if I should've applied to more programs. I just hate the uncertainty that goes along with having absolutely nothing lined up following my pharmacy school graduation, whether that's a job, a match with a residency program, or even an acceptance to another academic program (e.g., MCIT). I would feel a lot better about the future if I could at least get a few leads on pharmacist jobs (even if it's a position in a rural area - preferably 7 on/7 off nightshift, of course), but even the pharmacy directors of the hospitals I contacted in rural Alaska - places like Bethel and Barrow - are not currently considering new grads for any of their positions.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Got a brief update for anyone who might be curious. Admissions decisions were returned by the UPenn MCIT admissions committee today, and I was not accepted to this program. This was always going to be most likely outcome due to the sheer level of competition, but it's still disappointing nonetheless. At this point I'm looking into applying to one of the other programs I mentioned (e.g., Boston U) that require applicants to take an introductory level CS course prior to starting the program or applying to a bootcamp program that takes applicants with zero CS experience.

I also got in touch with a pharmacy recruiter from CompHealth who said she doesn't have a single job opportunity that a new graduate would qualify for. At this point, I'm not even sure it will be worth it to get licensed as a pharmacist since there are literally zero jobs in my state or in surrounding states that a new graduate would be eligible for (aside from BFE chain retail).

 

[Emmet2301]

Got a brief update for anyone who might be curious. Admissions decisions were returned by the UPenn MCIT admissions committee today, and I was not accepted to this program. This was always going to be most likely outcome due to the sheer level of competition, but it's still disappointing nonetheless. At this point I'm looking into applying to one of the other programs I mentioned (e.g., Boston U) that require applicants to take an introductory level CS course prior to starting the program or applying to a bootcamp program that takes applicants with zero CS experience.

I also got in touch with a pharmacy recruiter from CompHealth who said she doesn't have a single job opportunity that a new graduate would qualify for. At this point, I'm not even sure it will be worth it to get licensed as a pharmacist since there are literally zero jobs in my state or in surrounding states that a new graduate would be eligible for (aside from BFE chain retail).

A lot of people have started off with ****ty jobs and moved on from there. Is there a reason that you can't take a job in BFE? Is it just lack of interest?

 

[Hedgehog32]

A lot of people have started off with ****ty jobs and moved on from there. Is there a reason that you can't take a job in BFE? Is it just lack of interest?

It's not so much about not wanting to take a job in BFE; it's moreso about not wanting to take a retail job, period, in addition to my preference to not take a BFE job. In other words, I'd be willing to move to BFE for an inpatient hospital or LTC position (even though I would be doing so reluctantly) with the hope of eventually getting an inpatient/LTC job in a non-BFE locale, but I just can't bring myself to do that for a retail job, simply because I don't want to do retail in the first place regardless of location.

BTW, two pharmacy recruiters/placement specialists have told me that if I really do want an inpatient position, then getting a retail pharmacy job could ironically hurt my chances of eventually getting an inpatient job since a lot of hospital DOPs are apparently stating that they won't even consider applications from candidates with only chain retail experience.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

getting a retail pharmacy job could ironically hurt my chances of eventually getting an inpatient job since a lot of hospital DOPs are apparently stating that they won't even consider applications from candidates with only chain retail experience.

I have a hard time believing that retail experience is worse than literally no experience

Sent from my HD1925 using SDN mobile

 

[Rockinacoustic]

You are literally picking the worst possible time to be particular about your first job a new grad. Current residency grads are facing uncertain job prospects, and they have a license for immediate hire.

If I were you I'd secure any job I can get right now and hope the staffing agencies are still looking for temp hospital pharmacists to verify orders in high COVID areas once you're licensed.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I have a hard time believing that retail experience is worse than literally no experience

Sent from my HD1925 using SDN mobile

Based on what the recruiters told me, if a hospital (or at least, the hospitals they work with) see that an applicant only has retail experience, they don't consider that to be valid experience and will absolutely not even give a thought to hiring them. Of course, if someone actually wants to work in retail, then yeah, having retail experience would obviously be a good thing.

 

[Hedgehog32]

You are literally picking the worst possible time to be particular about your first job a new grad. Current residency grads are facing uncertain job prospects, and they have a license for immediate hire.

If I were you I'd secure any job I can get right now and hope the staffing agencies are still looking for temp hospital pharmacists to verify orders in high COVID areas once you're licensed.

That's the ironic thing; even if I actually wanted a retail job, I wouldn't be able to get one because the DMs of the chains here (or at least those with CVS, Walgreens, and grocery stores) are only hiring either experienced retail pharmacists or new grads who worked as chain retail interns. So it kind of begs the question of what kind of pharmacy jobs I'd even be considered for in the first place as a new grad. Also, it seems like both hospitals and retail chains want applicants to be licensed as pharmacists before they'll consider their application. The reason I say that is because I won't be getting my degree until mid-May (I say that because I've heard from students at other schools that usually hold graduations in April).

Honestly, though, if chain retail in BFE really does turn out to be my only option, I'm going to do a coding bootcamp program and be done with it.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Based on what the recruiters told me, if a hospital (or at least, the hospitals they work with) see that an applicant only has retail experience, they don't consider that to be valid experience and will absolutely not even give a thought to hiring them. Of course, if someone actually wants to work in retail, then yeah, having retail experience would obviously be a good thing.

I would imagine that retail experience isn't exactly highly regarded. That being said, I can't imagine anyone rationally thinking that retail experience is worth less than doing nothing

Sent from my HD1925 using SDN mobile

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I would imagine that retail experience isn't exactly highly regarded. That being said, I can't imagine anyone rationally thinking that retail experience is worth less than doing nothing

Sent from my HD1925 using SDN mobile

Based on what the recruiters told me, if a hospital (or at least, the hospitals they work with) see that an applicant only has retail experience, they don't consider that to be valid experience and will absolutely not even give a thought to hiring them. Of course, if someone actually wants to work in retail, then yeah, having retail experience would obviously be a good thing.

Might be a little harsh, but when you work retail then it's like getting a badge of shame on your resume and you become "undesirable" when looking for non-retail jobs. And really it's not about the fact that you worked retail but the fact that you get no skills from working retail so the amount of time you could be developing yourself in other areas is extremely limited. Fair or not, it is what it is.

When you are unemployed then at least you don't have the stigma of having worked retail and can at least try to explain your circumstances. You also have downtime to learn new skills so you'd better be using that time well to compensate for the fact that you aren't actively employed.

That being said I would still hire someone with experience (even retail) over a new grad, but the retail pharmacist will have to show me a lot more than the "skills" you get from retail otherwise I'll pick from new grads with potential (which is more unlikely to happen because usually the ones with most potential are doing residencies/fellowships). For example, if there were a pharmacist opening in a hospital, then there is a massive difference between an applicant with "10 years of retail experience working for CVS" and an applicant with "2 years of retail experience but holds two part time jobs, one with WM and one with Kaiser outpatient, and volunteers at the local school of pharmacy's health fairs/clinics, is a preceptor for APPE students and is BCACP/BCPS certified." I will hire the latter over the former any day.

 

[Momus]

Might be a little harsh, but when you work retail then it's like getting a badge of shame on your resume and you become "undesirable" when looking for non-retail jobs. And really it's not about the fact that you worked retail but the fact that you get no skills from working retail so the amount of time you could be developing yourself in other areas is extremely limited. Fair or not, it is what it is.

When you are unemployed then at least you don't have the stigma of having worked retail and can at least try to explain your circumstances. You also have downtime to learn new skills so you'd better be using that time well to compensate for the fact that you aren't actively employed.

That being said I would still hire someone with experience (even retail) over a new grad, but the retail pharmacist will have to show me a lot more than the "skills" you get from retail otherwise I'll pick from new grads with potential (which is more unlikely to happen because usually the ones with most potential are doing residencies/fellowships). For example, if there were a pharmacist opening in a hospital, then there is a massive difference between an applicant with "10 years of retail experience working for CVS" and an applicant with "2 years of retail experience but holds two part time jobs, one with WM and one with Kaiser outpatient, and volunteers at the local school of pharmacy's health fairs/clinics, is a preceptor for APPE students and is BCACP/BCPS certified." I will hire the latter over the former any day.

Nah, it depends on the person. More often than not, the rph with hospital experience could be a terrible hire. I've seen it over and over, a lot of people with hospital experience end up bottle necking the pharmacy. These people can't keep up and become a burden in retail. All the care about is speed in retail. As long as you don't kill anyone, not miss major interactions, you are good to go but even that it's too hard for the hospital experienced pharmacists to do. They end up complaining 100x and do the absolute minimum.

 

[TheBlaah]

Nah, it depends on the person. More often than not, the rph with hospital experience could be a terrible hire. I've seen it over and over, a lot of people with hospital experience end up bottle necking the pharmacy. These people can't keep up and become a burden in retail. All the care about is speed in retail. As long as you don't kill anyone, not miss major interactions, you are good to go but even that it's too hard for the hospital experienced pharmacists to do. They end up complaining 100x and do the absolute minimum.

You have a point there. But I think his hypothetical situation is hiring for a hospital position.

That said, I do know some of the retail pharmacists we've hired for our hospitals get 2-5x more done than some of our residency-trained hires. On the other hand, some of them have verified orders that have/could have done major potential harm to the patient...

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Nah, it depends on the person. More often than not, the rph with hospital experience could be a terrible hire. I've seen it over and over, a lot of people with hospital experience end up bottle necking the pharmacy. These people can't keep up and become a burden in retail. All the care about is speed in retail. As long as you don't kill anyone, not miss major interactions, you are good to go but even that it's too hard for the hospital experienced pharmacists to do. They end up complaining 100x and do the absolute minimum.

I agree that inpatient pharmacists will probably make terrible hires as retail pharmacists but 99.9% of the "changing practice settings" discussions are retail to hospital or retail to something else so it really should be a one-sided discussion. The fact of the matter is that inpatient pharmacists aren't graded by metrics or speed and are protected by unions so COMPLACENCY is something that festers in that setting.

 

[owlegrad]

At my place the pharmacists with hospital backgrounds verify about 1/2 the orders (or less) of the people with retail background. Take that for what you will.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

At my place the pharmacists with hospital backgrounds verify about 1/2 the orders (or less) of the people with retail background. Take that for what you will.

Goes to show that the "skillsets" developed from one type of pharmacist job are not transferrable to the "skillsets" needed for another, so the "pharmacy is a flexible career" saying is absolutely not true.

With pharmacy being not only a saturated/employers' market but also now becoming a credentialing arms race, I think that in a few years' time it will be simply impossible for pharmacists to change settings at all because there will be plenty of job seekers with relevant experience, and those that don't will have PGY-2/3 training.

 

[owlegrad]

Goes to show that the "skillsets" developed from one type of pharmacist job are not transferrable to the "skillsets" needed for another, so the "pharmacy is a flexible career" saying is absolutely not true.

With pharmacy being not only a saturated/employers' market but also now becoming a credentialing arms race, I think that in a few years' time it will be simply impossible for pharmacists to change settings at all because there will be plenty of job seekers with relevant experience, and those that don't will have PGY-2/3 training.

I disagree. It has nothing to do with skill sets and everything to do with mind sets.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Might be a little harsh, but when you work retail then it's like getting a badge of shame on your resume and you become "undesirable" when looking for non-retail jobs. And really it's not about the fact that you worked retail but the fact that you get no skills from working retail so the amount of time you could be developing yourself in other areas is extremely limited. Fair or not, it is what it is.

When you are unemployed then at least you don't have the stigma of having worked retail and can at least try to explain your circumstances. You also have downtime to learn new skills so you'd better be using that time well to compensate for the fact that you aren't actively employed.

That being said I would still hire someone with experience (even retail) over a new grad, but the retail pharmacist will have to show me a lot more than the "skills" you get from retail otherwise I'll pick from new grads with potential (which is more unlikely to happen because usually the ones with most potential are doing residencies/fellowships). For example, if there were a pharmacist opening in a hospital, then there is a massive difference between an applicant with "10 years of retail experience working for CVS" and an applicant with "2 years of retail experience but holds two part time jobs, one with WM and one with Kaiser outpatient, and volunteers at the local school of pharmacy's health fairs/clinics, is a preceptor for APPE students and is BCACP/BCPS certified." I will hire the latter over the former any day.

The bolded part of your post comes close to paraphrasing what the recruiters told me. They said once they and hospital-based employers see that you have retail experience (and nothing but retail experience) on your resume, they look at it as if the employee has the stigma of having retail-specific skills and experience. They said that if someone really does want a hospital job, they're better off waiting until they can find a PRN or part-time hospital job to put on their resume, as that experience would look more favorable to hospitals than retail experience.

 

[Hedgehog32]

You have a point there. But I think his hypothetical situation is hiring for a hospital position.

That said, I do know some of the retail pharmacists we've hired for our hospitals get 2-5x more done than some of our residency-trained hires. On the other hand, some of them have verified orders that have/could have done major potential harm to the patient...

Exactly -- my goal is to get a hospital (or even an LTC) position, so that's the perspective I'm speaking from. The pharmacists at the hospital system I used to work as an intern for until they asked me and the other intern to resign a few months ago (the one you guessed correctly) have absolutely no leads they can give me when it comes to finding a job (as even their own residency program graduates are having a hard time finding jobs), so I'm basically on my own and relegated to finding some/any hospital or LTC facility in BFE that would be willing to hire a new grad.

 

[Hedgehog32]

At the risk of igniting another firestorm, I figured I'd go ahead and post a brief update. I've been doing lots of research on various tech industry careers and the various educational paths that can be pursued by those who want to start a career in them, and I've been reading up on cybersecurity careers.

Apparently, even though all tech industry positions are in high demand, those in the cybersecurity sector are (at least according to the BLS) in even higher demand than positions in other tech sectors. Apparently, the BLS lumps all cybersecurity job titles under the banner of Information Security Analysts. The latest BLS job market growth/outlook stats were just recently updated on 4/10/20 and can be viewed at the link below:

Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2022-32 decade.

www.bls.gov

As you can see, cybersecurity positions are projected to experience job market growth of 32% through 2028, which, if I'm not mistaken, is literally the highest job market growth projection stat of ANY position listed on the BLS website. In other words, according to the BLS, the cybersecurity job market is projected to experience more growth than any other profession's. (For the record, pharmacy is still holding steady at 0%.)

So obviously, that provoked me to research various cybersecurity pathways someone with my background would qualify to pursue. There are a handful of bootcamp programs out there, but most of them prefer to accept applicants with CS backgrounds. There are a number of MS programs out there, but most of them require applicants to have CS knowledge/experience as well.

I ended up discovering a cybersecurity MS program offered by IU that doesn't require applicants to have CS backgrounds. For applicants who lack such a background, they have to complete two bootcamp-style courses while they're enrolled in the program, and these two courses therefore "count" as fulfilling the degree requirements for two of the ten courses that must be taken to earn the MS. The best part is that students who enroll on a full-time basis can complete the program in one year.

So anyways, it seems like that program is going to be the most logical choice for a plan B program (assuming my application will be competitive enough to get me accepted). Something that really draws me to cybersecurity is the fact that cybersecurity professionals are in extremely high demand (as well as the fact that H1B1 visa holders cannot legally be hired for most cybersecurity positions), so if I want to maximize my chances of getting a job upon graduation and NOT make the same mistake twice (I.e., pursuing pharmacy), then it makes the most sense to pursue a career with the most optimistic job market growth stats.

If I get accepted to the program, I'll matriculate in the fall 2020 semester. With that being the case, I just need to decide if I'm going to take the NAPLEX, apply for licensure in a few states, and at least try to find a BFE hospital job, or if I'm willing to write off the pharmacy degree altogether as a loss and simply focus on starting the cybersecurity program.

I guess I could get licensed, apply for jobs, start the program in August and continue applying for jobs, and if I do get a hospital pharmacist job by some miracle, I can always just withdraw from the cybersecurity courses at that point. Going to have to do a lot of thinking over the next few weeks.